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Ernst_Rohr
08-03-2006, 10:06 AM
What is your favorite early war Russian fighter?

Been having a "discussion" with friends, and we have divergence of opinion when it comes to the early Russian fighters.

So, out of curiosity, whats your favorite early war Russian fighter, and why?

Ernst_Rohr
08-03-2006, 10:06 AM
What is your favorite early war Russian fighter?

Been having a "discussion" with friends, and we have divergence of opinion when it comes to the early Russian fighters.

So, out of curiosity, whats your favorite early war Russian fighter, and why?

Ernst_Rohr
08-03-2006, 10:08 AM
For me, its the LaGG-3, although I like flying the I-16 as well.

The LaGG can turn, has good firepower, good visibility and its fast. Only downside is its unstable, but compared to the I-16, its not nearly as bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
08-03-2006, 10:23 AM
I like the Lagg3 for effectiveness with its good maneuver ability and good firepower. For pure fun, it's the I-16. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kuna_
08-03-2006, 10:34 AM
LaGG-3s4.
Hmmm.... close second is MiG-3, due to ineffective (in game!) anti-fighter armament (most variants except ShVAK and 2xUB).
Also there is heavy bug with AM-38 engined MiG... it lacks one BS gun.

At least what Hardball and in game viewer says.

Haigotron
08-03-2006, 11:13 AM
LaGG also http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif it was my first dynamic campaign plane, i never regretted, until the germans brought in their better fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-03-2006, 11:36 AM
MiG-3, then I-16 type 24.

I'd dig the I-153 more if I could just see out of the bloody thing, but the speed of the MiG actually allows a certain control over the rules of engagement...or disengagement.


TB

TheGozr
08-03-2006, 11:57 AM
What the date for early? 1941?

Mig3 and I-16

F6_Ace
08-03-2006, 12:00 PM
I-16 was until they dumbed it down with respect to spin recovery. Probably Mig 3 now.

Xiolablu3
08-03-2006, 12:12 PM
I really dont like any of the early war Russian planes.

109E4 and 109F4 are just so superior.

For an all-rounder I guess it would be the Yak1

Brain32
08-03-2006, 12:13 PM
They all fit into my Revi very nicely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Ernst_Rohr
08-03-2006, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">really dont like any of the early war Russian planes.

109E4 and 109F4 are just so superior.

For an all-rounder I guess it would be the Yak1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I find the LaGG works well vs the E4. The F model 109's are definately superior in every way though, and stay that way to 42.

The Mig and the LaGG are signifgantly faster than the 109E, and only moderately slower than the F models down low. The Mig is actually faster than the F models up high.

The Yak is a better turner than the others, but thats about it (climbs better than the LaGG as well).

Really that was one of the reasons for the original post. I also find it kind of interesting that the discussion here is breaking the same way as the discussion I had in RL. Most folks go for the LaGG or the Mig, with a smaller number occassionally bringing up the Yak...

(and interestingly enough, there seems to be a strong undercurrent of liking the I-16, despite all its shortcomings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

JG52Karaya-X
08-03-2006, 12:38 PM
In '41 it's got to be the Yak1, with the LaGG3S4 on 2nd and the I16Type24 on 3rd place. I don't like the MiG3 much as it is a strict boom and zoom plane and at the same time does not handle speed very well due to compression and its wooden construction, its armament is quite light as well! The I153 is a fun plane but is being outperformed by pretty much everything else but with rockets you can still use it for hunting ground targets.

thefruitbat
08-03-2006, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I really dont like any of the early war Russian planes.

109E4 and 109F4 are just so superior.

For an all-rounder I guess it would be the Yak1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have to agree to this. I've tried hard to like early russian planes, but have failed! I think you have to be slightly masochistic to fly russian planes in 41 and most of 42.

If i had to pick, the i16 is probally a winner. I just cant get on with yaks full stop early or late war ones,

Its not until the la5 or some of the american planes appear that i feel i stand a real chance... I like flying a la5 at stalingrad, g2's make good oposition...

cheers fruitbat

leitmotiv
08-03-2006, 12:50 PM
I am really amazed so many people share my liking for the 1941 LaGG-3! I like its firepower, and it is a rock-solid gunnery platform. It is frustrating against the 109F, but an even match for E-4/7s. I also like the I-16 very much and deeply enjoy taking on any type of 109 with it. My absolute favorite is the I-153 because it was the greatest biplane fighter of the war, and I really like fighting in it. Truly, the Yak-1 1941 was the best of the lot because it was so easy to fly, maneuverable, passingly well armed, and a better match against the 109 than any of the others except for the MiG-3, which could go high, and play the 109's game. Objectively, the MiG-3 was the best because it could fly high and fast, and was the only Soviet fighter able to stop the 109 from controlling the engagement. I am not fond of it, rarely use it, but it is the top dog. Of course, if IL-2 were completely historical, the MiG would still be heavily disadvantaged, as would all the early war Sov fighters, because of the lack of radios or because only leaders had radios which could transmit and receive. Excellent communications gave the Germans a definite advantage.

berg417448
08-03-2006, 01:03 PM
LaGG-3 has always been one of my favorites.

JtD
08-03-2006, 01:03 PM
Given the choice I'd pick the LaGG-3 as well for the reasons stated. If I am facing 109 F-4's my choice would probably be MiG-3 or one of the I-, because I like to have just one advantage, may it be turn or speed over my opposition.

I also consider the IL-2 one seaters very decent fighters and if you find one or two reliable wingmen I'd pick them over anything else.

Oh, and the I-16's used to be real fun. And so realisitc. Good old times. (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/I-16_Stunts/I-16_Stunts.html)

zeno303
08-03-2006, 01:29 PM
Mine would have to be "the Rat." Out classed by the beginning of the war, but what a funky looking plane and a blast to fly!

F19_Olli72
08-03-2006, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:

The Mig and the LaGG are signifgantly faster than the 109E, and only moderately slower than the F models down low. The Mig is actually faster than the F models up high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'll find that the Mig-3 AM-38 is quite faster than (even) the F4 at sealevel. Its also one of the best turning Migs. Thing with Migs is that while they are fast, you still wont outdive any german fighter.

I kinda like the Migs, but i must confess i like the Polikarpov's better.

tigertalon
08-03-2006, 02:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I also consider the IL-2 one seaters very decent fighters and if you find one or two reliable wingmen I'd pick them over anything else.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Especially 3rd series, with two VYa-23 wing cannons and large ammo supply. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Xiolablu3
08-03-2006, 02:27 PM
I know its not strictly Russian, but I do like the Hurricane Field Mod.

If the Hurri is in the planeset for 1941 then I will pick that most of the time.

Not much ammo, but those guns sure pack a punch, and if you can get high, you can use that to compensate for the lack of speed.

I have surprising success versus 109F4's if I am carefull and fly it flat out all the time. I fly it like a FW190, becasue if you turn too sharp it bleeds speed quickly.

PBNA-Boosher
08-03-2006, 02:33 PM
Yak-1 and Yak-1b for me please!

MadBadVlad
08-03-2006, 02:37 PM
For very early i'll take the I-16 Type 24, just so much fun to fly and a good kick with those cannons. Slightly later and I would switch to the Yak 1B

DIRTY-MAC
08-03-2006, 06:17 PM
the Yak is probably the best of them all, as it is still pretty fast and have an turnadvantage over the 109E and F

but the I-153 and I-16 Mk24 turn and burners

SeaFireLIV
08-03-2006, 07:35 PM
I16, always has been always will be. A plane with character, even if chewed to death by anti-I16 luftwhiners.

leitmotiv
08-03-2006, 09:01 PM
So right, SeaFireLIV---it is for the Hard Core, and the Model 18 with those four buzz saws is for the Hardest Core of the Hard Core.

mortoma1958
08-03-2006, 10:18 PM
I like to fly to I-16, something about feeling the wind blowing on you in that open cockpit ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif hehehehe ) that is beyond description. It's not effective against Emils or Friedricks because they leave you in their propwash, but still fun to fly.

woofiedog
08-04-2006, 12:52 AM
Mig-3... Better speed and higher altitude than the Yak's... watch out if you do any low altitude fighting though.
Also a much better choice of armaments over the Yak's.

Although the Yak-7 is a Great ride for down low fighting.

JG10r_Bull
08-04-2006, 01:33 AM
i would have to say the I-16 i love that little plane just don't do Neg-G's in it and u'll be ok

F16_Neo
08-04-2006, 03:39 AM
My choice is still the Mig, but not the prototype AM-38 version I sadly see in planesets even on otherwise serious servers...
Tried the LaGG lately, I just cannot figure out how to use it to any success, I just stall out worse than in the Mig.

joeap
08-04-2006, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F16_Neo:
My choice is still the Mig, but not the prototype AM-38 version I sadly see in planesets even on otherwise serious servers...
Tried the LaGG lately, I just cannot figure out how to use it to any success, I just stall out worse than in the Mig. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you mean the Mig-3U, the AM-38 version was not a prototype but a field mod with the AM-38 used by the IL" to try to make it more suitable for low altitude ops, and to deal with the fct production of it's motor AM-35 IIRC was stopped to make more room for AM-38 production for the IL-2

La7_brook
08-04-2006, 04:12 AM
its gotoo be the SMASHASPIT 109g2 on the eastrn front too/ lol

BGs_Ricky
08-04-2006, 04:35 AM
LaGG-3 a or Yak-1, but against well-flown F-2/F-4 it's still quite hard...

F16_Neo
08-04-2006, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
I think you mean the Mig-3U, the AM-38 version was not a prototype but a field mod with the AM-38 used by the IL" to try to make it more suitable for low altitude ops, and to deal with the fct production of it's motor AM-35 IIRC was stopped to make more room for AM-38 production for the IL-2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I read this: http://www.chuckhawks.com/mig-3.htm
"Only one prototype MiG-3 was built with an AM-38 powerplant."
But apparantly some squadrons modded them to AM38 due to shortages of AM35's.
Great resource btw, http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/mig3/mig3.html

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My choice is still the Mig, but not the prototype AM-38 version I sadly see in planesets even on otherwise serious servers...
Tried the LaGG lately, I just cannot figure out how to use it to any success, I just stall out worse than in the Mig. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LaGG is a little more difficult to fly than the Mig, as the Mig is a lot more stable. If your used to flying the I-16, the LaGG is easier though, since the 16 and the LaGG has some similar behaviors.

The biggest issue with the LaGG is that you cannot be hard on the stick. Violent maneuvering will bleed E like crazy and combined with a hard turn, will case an immediate stall, usually followed by a snap roll and a spin. The worst part about the LaGG is its tendency to spin, and its VERY hard to get out of it, if you spin in when low, your toast!

Fly the LaGG like a B&Z bird, stay fast, gentle on the stick and avoid sticking in tight turns. Work at keeping the rudder aligned and the plane trimmed and she is pretty clean and fast. 109's turn better than the LaGG, so B&Z tactics work better vs them, keep your speed up and you can dictate the fight.

Mig has better speed, but lesser armament and its very fragile and cant dive. The LaGG is slower but can take a LOT more abuse than the Mig and keep flying, and woe to the 109 that gets in front of the LaGG! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
08-04-2006, 08:20 AM
ARe you guys SURE the Yak1 can outturn the 109F4?

Maybe its bevcasue I always take bombs and rockets that I am having problems.

Maybe just the bomb racks make outturning a 109 hard for me.

Beaufort-RAF
08-04-2006, 08:37 AM
I like the Lag3 as it can carry 8 rockets, so you can carry out a very effective ground attack and then have a reasonably good fighter to play with.

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 08:40 AM
Yak 1 turn time at 1000m = 20.4 seconds
109E turn time at 1000m = 22 seconds
109F turn time at 1000m = 19.9 seconds

Yak is a better turner than the E, and comparable with the F.

Yak is 4km/hour faster than E model down low, and 20km/hour faster up high. F model 109 is MUCH faster across the board, 45km/hour down low and 60+ up high.

All models of 109 accellerate better than the Yak though, E model is 500kg lighter, and while the F model 109 is almost the same weight, it has higher power.

All models of the 109 outclimb the Yak signifigantly.

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 09:14 AM
Turn times for Eastern front early war fighters 1941-42(early)
VVS
Yak-1: 20.4
Yak-1b: 19
Yak-7A: 21
Yak-7B: 21.4
LaGG-3s4: 22
LaGG-s29: 19.2
Mig-3: 20
Mig-3UD: 20
Mig-3 (2x12.7mm): 21
Mig-3 (2x20mm): 21
Mig-3 AM-38: 18.1
I-16: 17.6
I-153: 14

AXIS
Bf-109E: 22
Bf-109F2: 19.9
Bf-109F4: 19.5
CR-42: 17
Fiat G.50: 17.5
I.A.R 80a: 20.5
I.A.R 81a: 21.2
I.A.R 81c: 21.2
MC-200-I: 19.4
MC-200-III&VII: 19.94

Top Speeds: (sea level/ best speed &lt;alt&gthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
VVS
Yak-1: 474km, 569km (4800m)
Yak-1b: 531km, 599km (4100m)
Yak-7A: 468km, 561km (4700m)
Yak-7B: 474km, 568km (4800m)
LaGG-3s4: 496km, 574km (4900m)
LaGG-s29: 510km, 562km (3700m)
Mig-3: 502km, 635km (7700m)
Mig-3UD: 508km, 657km (7800m)
Mig-3 (2x12.7mm): 515km, 640km (7800m)
Mig-3 (2x20mm): 515km, 640km (7800m)
Mig-3 AM-38: 547km, 582km (3000m)
I-16: 440km, 476km (4900m)
I-153: 350km, 398km (4500m)

AXIS
Bf-109E: 470km, 543km (4700m)
Bf-109F2: 510km, 614km (5200m)
Bf-109F4: 519km, 637km (5800m)
CR-42: 340km, 430km (5300m)
Fiat G.50: 400km, 450km (5000m)
I.A.R 80a: 486km, 556km (6900m)
I.A.R 81a: 480km, 547km (6900m)
I.A.R 81c: 480km, 547km (6900m)
MC-200-I: 444km, 503km (4500m)
MC-200-III&VII: 443km, 500km (5000m)

Fox_3
08-04-2006, 09:15 AM
Both variants of the I-16 for me.

Kocur_
08-04-2006, 09:16 AM
MiG-3! After a while in P-51C lousy gunsight view and lack of cannons is kind of familiar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Low Vne and heavy controls at high speed, but other than this MiG-3s are very good fighters, mostly due to speed advantage over most, if not all 1941 fighters, also said speed transforms into alt so nicely...

Xiolablu3
08-04-2006, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Yak 1 turn time at 1000m = 20.4 seconds
109E turn time at 1000m = 22 seconds
109F turn time at 1000m = 19.9 seconds

Yak is a better turner than the E, and comparable with the F.

Yak is 4km/hour faster than E model down low, and 20km/hour faster up high. F model 109 is MUCH faster across the board, 45km/hour down low and 60+ up high.

All models of 109 accellerate better than the Yak though, E model is 500kg lighter, and while the F model 109 is almost the same weight, it has higher power.

All models of the 109 outclimb the Yak signifigantly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx for the info, I always suspected that the Yak didnt turn as well as the 109F4. I have always found turning is not a great idea if a 109F is behind you.

LeOs.K_Walstein
08-04-2006, 10:28 AM
I-16 "Rata"

Wallstein

CzechTexan
08-04-2006, 10:36 AM
I'll go with the LaGG. I like its firepower too. Just point your nose at the target and pull the trigger. I think that's why Russian pilots liked it too. Keep it simple for inexperienced pilots.

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'll go with the LaGG. I like its firepower too. Just point your nose at the target and pull the trigger. I think that's why Russian pilots liked it too. Keep it simple for inexperienced pilots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the Russian pilots hated the LaGG, calling it the "varnished coffin". This was inital due to the very poor performance of the LaGG-1, during the Winter War with Finland, and the very nasty tendancy of the LaGG to enter a spin when stalling. The LaGG-3 was an attempt to fix those problems, and was a better plane, but still had power issues and spinning issues.

Interestingly enough, the LaGG's major deficency was the Klimov engine, when the engine was replaced with a radial engine, the LaGG become the La-5, and turned into a real killer of a plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 12:29 PM
BTW, all the numbers up there are all courtesy of Hardballs Aircraft Viewer, a VERY handy item for IL2, gives you the performance stats on all AC ingame. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFJ_Locust
08-04-2006, 12:33 PM
NONE !!!

SeaFireLIV
08-04-2006, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
NONE !!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I saw you`s entered this post I knew that your answer would be something like that. As far as I know all you fly are P38s and that`s about it.

Kocur_
08-04-2006, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:

Actually the Russian pilots hated the LaGG, calling it the "varnished coffin". This was inital due to the very poor performance of the LaGG-1, during the Winter War with Finland, and the very nasty tendancy of the LaGG to enter a spin when stalling. The LaGG-3 was an attempt to fix those problems, and was a better plane, but still had power issues and spinning issues.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaGG-1 was a designation for serial planes in configuration of I-301 No1 prototype, but they were never produced. LaGG-3 was serial designation of planes after I-301 No2 prototype with larger fuel tanks among other changes.

LaGGs in Winter War? The one with Finland? Funny since decision to produce them serially was made on 23 November 1940 and first serial LaGG-3 made first flight on 23 January 1941 (and was so faulty that VVS didnt accept it until 24 February 1941 and state trials were conducted on second serial plane, which left assembly line in a bit better condition...). Btw did you know, that no serial LaGG-3 had 23mm cannon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif? PTB-23 cannon was supposed to be main armament (PTB-23 was mounted in I-301, that cannon along with SG-23 and VJa were tested in 5 examples of early serial LaGG-3s, but without effect), but it was dropped from production, so as a stop gap 12,7 BS was made engine weapon until 76th plane of 3rd series, which was the first to have 20mm ShVAK.

Ernst_Rohr
08-04-2006, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">LaGG-1 was a designation for serial planes in configuration of I-301 No1 prototype, but they were never produced. LaGG-3 was serial designation of planes after I-301 No2 prototype with larger fuel tanks among other changes.

LaGGs in Winter War? The one with Finland? Funny since decision to produce them serially was made on 23 November 1940 and first serial LaGG-3 made first flight on 23 January 1941 (and was so faulty that VVS didnt accept it until 24 February 1941 and state trials were conducted on second serial plane, which left assembly line in a bit better condition...). Btw did you know, that no serial LaGG-3 had 23mm cannon Winky? PTB-23 cannon was supposed to be main armament (PTB-23 was mounted in I-301, that cannon along with SG-23 and VJa were tested in 5 examples of early serial LaGG-3s, but without effect), but it was dropped from production, so as a stop gap 12,7 BS was made engine weapon until 76th plane of 3rd series, which was the first to have 20mm ShVAK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaGG-1 was also designated I-22 and your correct, my mistake, it was NOT in the Winter War, but the Continuation War.

Kocur_
08-04-2006, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
LaGG-1 was also designated I-22 and your correct, my mistake, it was NOT in the Winter War, but the Continuation War. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I-22 was designation of the project in very early stage of developement, while it was still more like a study. As soon as the project was accepted as the part of the general plan of fighters modernisation (after famous conference at Kremlin in January 1939) it was called I-301 (after Plant No 301, which was assigned to the Lavotchkin, Gorbunov and Gudkov).

Continuation War didnt start until Barbarossa right? Well LaGG-3 did not make its debut there. They were first used in Moscow area in second decade of July 1941. Since August they fought in the south and finally since September in Leningrad area.
Oh, btw. Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavochkin-Gorbunov-Goudkov_LaGG-1)on LaGG-3 needs an update badly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I would suggest:
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/lagg1.html
and
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/lagg3.html
and following.

Cippacometa
08-04-2006, 04:50 PM
If "early" means up to 1941 it's LaGG-3 (4 series).

Kocur_
08-04-2006, 05:07 PM
Of those in the game indeed - IRL to my best knowledge at least part of 12th series was produced still in 1941 (97th example of 12th series was the first to be equipped with 6 x RS-82 and the load was standarised in October 1941).