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M_Rat13
01-03-2018, 10:58 PM
Hi, I got for honour at Christmas, and I only just found out about the forums.

So, to start off, I'll ask something bugging me. Why are assassin characters so prominent? Like, in 80 to 90% of the time, other people will be playing assassin characters. Are they OP? Or just popular class?

This is for all modes. Thanks to anyone who replies.

Tundra 793
01-03-2018, 11:05 PM
Welcome to the forums mate.

Assassin's have been quite popular since launch, and a few have been in states of unbalance. Some would argue one or two still are unbalanced.

But there's really no clear cut answer as to why they're so prevalent. With each new Season, when we got new heroes, the majority of them were also Assassin's, or Assassin Hybrids.
There's definitely an abundance of Assassin heroes, but no one quite knows why.

bob333e
01-03-2018, 11:06 PM
Hello and welcome to the For Honor forums!

To promptly deliver a quick summary: Assassin class is by far the most flexible to adapt to in For Honor, on top of offering the most versatile moveset for a character, given the game's current state. There's also the 'light spam meta', which is essentially, quick fast light attacks which are often hard to react to, resulting in dealing free damage often.

Another thing to note, the most recent Season 4 Heroes include the most powerful hero in the game, who is also Assassin class. It's not doubt this hero encouraged more people to pick Assassins.

But by all means, feel free to choose whichever hero you feel suits you best. This game isn't limited to just Assassins; the only real limit is the sky. :)

M_Rat13
01-03-2018, 11:13 PM
But by all means, feel free to choose whichever hero you feel suits you best. This game isn't limited to just Assassins; the only real limit is the sky. :)

I've messed with most of them. Well, non dlc characters. I try also not to main characters in games, it gets boring fast for me. I have no problem with the class itself, and they are fun to play, but heavier characters do feel they have an uphill battle against assassins who know how to just dodge constantly, and poke away at you. Some of the most fun matches I have involve two heavies fighting each other, and I just wish they were more abundant.

Still a fun game regardless, but it's a bit like COD where everyone picks SMG, it just takes a little bit of the magic away.

bob333e
01-03-2018, 11:25 PM
Fair comparison, people will often tend to favor faster things.

Heavy vs Assassin is considered a tough matchup. In fact, it's the unluckiest matchup in the game. I do recommend practicing often, against level 3 bots, in Custom Match and Practice Mode, should you wish to further hone your skills away from PvP, and memorize your opponent's movesets. I especially recommend training hard against DLC heroes. And also using them in Practice Mode, to get to know them more yourself.

As Tundra pointed out, Assassins have been popular since launch, even before that; since the betas. They're swift characters with fast strikes. In my mind's eye, going Vanguard then Assassin is prone to make you a better Assassin, because by then, you're going to feel Vanguards and Heavies slow when you're up against them and you're using Assassin.

The best Heavy is the Warlord. He's very technical though, mind you. More than half of his tactics require precise timing. And he's not one for blazing-heat damage, you've gotta chip away at your opponent, mostly.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 01:41 AM
The best Heavy is the Warlord. He's very technical though, mind you. More than half of his tactics require precise timing. And he's not one for blazing-heat damage, you've gotta chip away at your opponent, mostly.

Just Warlord? Nothing else to mix it up?

bob333e
01-04-2018, 01:45 AM
Just Warlord? Nothing else to mix it up?

The only Heavies are Warlord, Conqueror, and Shugoki. They are the Heavies per-se. However I personally view the Lawbringer as a Heavy, not as a Hybrid. Not sure why he was categorized as Hybrid but ah well.

Conqueror is very lackey, all you can do against skilled players is block -> counter, block -> counter, rinse, repeat. His kit lacks extremely. Shugoki is the slowest hero in the game, so it definitely won't be easy at all. And you must be careful with Demon's Embrace because if you miss it, it's a GG.

Warlord, on the other hand, has very good defense, and very good counterattacks, and has a bash from neutral, as well as hyperarmored heavy attacks, and a fast zone attack. He's well-rounded, the tradeoff being he won't deal huge chunks of damage, and has a rather lackluster range, and feels clunky overall.

David_gorda
01-04-2018, 01:45 AM
Just Warlord? Nothing else to mix it up? warlord, Raider, lawbringer, Warden and nobuchi are decent classes thats none assassins.

bob333e
01-04-2018, 01:47 AM
warlord, Raider, lawbringer, Warden and nobuchi are decent classes thats none assassins.

Ah he was asking about Heavies; but yes, Raider and Warden are good all-around heroes when you're trying to avoid using assassins. For me, Vanguards are the best class. Sadly though, Kensei is terrible, Warden has very bad reputation, and Raider is the stamina-drain gimmick hero.

David_gorda
01-04-2018, 01:51 AM
Ah he was asking about Heavies; but yes, Raider and Warden are good all-around heroes when you're trying to avoid using assassins. For me, Vanguards are the best class. Sadly though, Kensei is terrible, Warden has very bad reputation, and Raider is the stamina-drain gimmick hero. well of he wants to play a heavy warlord is the best, shugoki is okish and conq is bad and Boring he he.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 01:58 AM
Ah he was asking about Heavies; but yes, Raider and Warden are good all-around heroes when you're trying to avoid using assassins. For me, Vanguards are the best class. Sadly though, Kensei is terrible, Warden has very bad reputation, and Raider is the stamina-drain gimmick hero.


well of he wants to play a heavy warlord is the best, shugoki is okish and conq is bad and Boring he he.

Technically I see lawbringer as a heavy, just to clarify.

David_gorda
01-04-2018, 02:03 AM
Technically I see lawbringer as a heavy, just to clarify. try the lawbringer he is alot Of fun. Its abit harder to play then most classes IMO, but is strong when you learn to play him well.

Vakris_One
01-04-2018, 02:30 AM
Ah he was asking about Heavies; but yes, Raider and Warden are good all-around heroes when you're trying to avoid using assassins. For me, Vanguards are the best class. Sadly though, Kensei is terrible, Warden has very bad reputation, and Raider is the stamina-drain gimmick hero.
Kensei isn't terrible against assassins he's just difficult to play as he has so many bad matchups due to his obsolete kit. If you're having a problem with super aggressive assassins I would recommend the Kensei out of all the Vanguards. He's got a medium amount of health, his top light is still a 500ms light, i.e. it's quite fast, he can punish via dodge strikes which then lead directly into his mixup mind game. Two of his mixup options are perfect for handling aggressive assassins - the soft cancel into GB catches assassins who are fond of dodge strikes and the hyper armoured side heavies are a very good way to punch through a flurry of assassin's light strikes. Kensei also gets very good damage from a wall splat via his top heavy unblockable which is able to quickly take away a decent chunk out of the squishy health of most assassins.

The only problem that is stopping Kensei from being a high tier character is that he has absolutely no options when the opponent goes passive and turtles him. Hopefully his upcoming rework will sort that part of his kit out.

The next best character to use against assassins is the Aramusha (Season 4 character) - his infinite chain can be devastating for an assassin's reflex guard and his mixup game in general can be quite tricky for casual players. I personaly also find the Highlander (Season 3 character) to be quite successful against assassins and there are some players that see great success with the Shugoki against assassins.

brashtralas
01-04-2018, 03:08 AM
Assassins are unbelievably versatile. There’s really no difference between the heavies, vanguards, and assassins, except assassins are faster and generally have a broader kit.

Before everyone jumps on that comment, let me explain: the benefit to being a heavy is supposed to be high health/defense, and heavy hitting. While that may be the case, assassins do enough damage that it’s generally the same difference. IMO.

The only character that has noticeably higher survivability to me, is the lawbringer. Ironically, not even a true heavy.

Then we have the newest assassin, that is more a hybrid than any other hybrid, in my opinion. To me, we’ve reached a point where classes are pointless. Just list their moves.

And finally, dodge attacks. Probably one of the most useful moves in the game, against everyone except assassins themselves.

I wish I liked assassin gameplay.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 03:24 AM
The only problem that is stopping Kensei from being a high tier character is that he has absolutely no options when the opponent goes passive and turtles him. Hopefully his upcoming rework will sort that part of his kit out.

The next best character to use against assassins is the Aramusha (Season 4 character) - his infinite chain can be devastating for an assassin's reflex guard and his mixup game in general can be quite tricky for casual players. I personaly also find the Highlander (Season 3 character) to be quite successful against assassins and there are some players that see great success with the Shugoki against assassins.

Kensei's only opener I've found is light spam, which somehow assassins can dodge?

Isn't Arumusha basically an assasin?

Shugoki does kinda work for me, if you find a wall, a tight corridor, or the assassin messes up. But often, I much prefer slower heroes to fight against with Shugoki, cos it opens up more opportunities.


I wish I liked assassin gameplay.

I kinda do, but then it's assassin vs assassin, and then you have to be th better assassin, and most of the time, I'm not.

PDXGorechild
01-04-2018, 10:27 AM
Assassins are unbelievably versatile. There’s really no difference between the heavies, vanguards, and assassins, except assassins are faster and generally have a broader kit.

Before everyone jumps on that comment, let me explain: the benefit to being a heavy is supposed to be high health/defense, and heavy hitting. While that may be the case, assassins do enough damage that it’s generally the same difference. IMO.

The only character that has noticeably higher survivability to me, is the lawbringer. Ironically, not even a true heavy.

Then we have the newest assassin, that is more a hybrid than any other hybrid, in my opinion. To me, we’ve reached a point where classes are pointless. Just list their moves.

And finally, dodge attacks. Probably one of the most useful moves in the game, against everyone except assassins themselves.

I wish I liked assassin gameplay.

For starters:

Heavy = High health/defensive capabilities, good damage, trade-off is a lack of mobility.
Assassin = High speed/mobility, good damage, trade-off is low health and a lack of defensive capability in the moveset and through reflex guard.
Vanguard = Versatility, adaptability and ease of use.
Hybrid = A mix of two of the above.

Obviously not all classes fit perfectly into their given slots currently. I don't think anyone could say that the Conqueror is a hard hitter or the Kensei is adaptable and easy to use. However I do feel that Heavies are noticeably harder to kill. Killing a Shugoki, Warlord, Conqueror or Lawbringer at full health is a monumental task for me as a Berserker currently if my enemy knows how to defend. I have to essentially chip away with light attacks unless I can pull a guard break off. I had a fight with an amazing Shugoki last night who didn't miss a single counter-guard break or parry on a heavy. The fights went on for ages.

I think Assassins are so prevalent at the moment because they are fast and fun, not necessarily due to being overpowered.

Let's look at the pure Assassin classes, which are 1/3 of the roster -

Peacekeeper, Orochi and Berserker in the original cast. Other than the PK's ability to light spam, she's a pretty well balanced class these days. Orochi and Berserker both have potential in the right hands but are difficult to play well and have very limited viability high level due to their small, mostly useless kits.

Of the DLC characters we have Shinobi, Gladiator and Shaman. Shinobi is in a pretty good place in my mind, although frustrating in some situations due to being impossible to catch up with, he doesn't have anything terribly overpowered other than sickle rain in gank fights. Gladiator - same story. Certainly one of the better classes in the game but not overpowered. Then you've got the Shaman, who is obviously overpowered currently and has drawn everyones attention to the Assassins once more.

Assassins in most games are made for 1v1 and excel at that. It's true they do in For honour as well. But in 4v4 currently the best teams only roll with one Assassin, there for damage dealing in dominion and flag capping in tribute. The other 3 will be Nobushi, Raider/Lawbringer, Cent/Warlord. If you end up facing a team of DLC Assassins (usually played by noobs) with the aforementioned setups, you should be steamrolling them little squishies.

True the game is somewhat saturated with Assassins, I can't deny that. It would be nice to see a few new Heavies and Vanguards in the game. But the difference in viability most people are noticing is due to the DLC characters in general, not just the Assassins, who all have a much more versatile kit than the Heavies who are all part of the neglected original roster.

Vakris_One
01-04-2018, 03:45 PM
Kensei's only opener I've found is light spam, which somehow assassins can dodge?

Isn't Arumusha basically an assasin?

Shugoki does kinda work for me, if you find a wall, a tight corridor, or the assassin messes up. But often, I much prefer slower heroes to fight against with Shugoki, cos it opens up more opportunities.
If by light spam you mean poking them with his top light then yeah that's pretty much the only move he can try from neutral that is fast enough to not always get insta-parried. Against experienced players though they'll just keep their guard up top and it will get blocked at best, parried at worst. And since the Kensei has no fast zone attack he literally cannot even threaten them from two directions like the Orochi, Warden, Aramusha and PK can. And yes, assassins can just dodge his top light on reaction unless you predict them and either:
- immediately follow up with a second light which results in a rather quick thrust. It's risky though.
- do a dodge strike after the top light and you'll dodge their hit and score a hit of your own.

Because Kensei lacks an opener he must rely on hard feinting his heavies into GBs or hard feinting a heavy into a light in order to mess up an opponent's parry timing.

Aramusha is classified as a Vanguard, Heavy hybrid. He mostly feels and plays like a Vanguard though. He doesn't have dodge strikes, deflect or a reflex guard and although he has fast lights you can't really play him like an assassin.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 05:29 PM
Aramusha is classified as a Vanguard, Heavy hybrid. He mostly feels and plays like a Vanguard though. He doesn't have dodge strikes, deflect or a reflex guard and although he has fast lights you can't really play him like an assassin.

I wouldn't class aramusha as a heavy vanguard, I'd class them as a vanguard assassin. There's not anything heavy about aramusha, apart from how hard they hit, which is kinda ridiculous with how fast those heavy attacks are too.

Vakris_One
01-04-2018, 09:04 PM
I wouldn't class aramusha as a heavy vanguard, I'd class them as a vanguard assassin. There's not anything heavy about aramusha, apart from how hard they hit, which is kinda ridiculous with how fast those heavy attacks are too.
I would also class him as more of an assassin/vanguard hybrid than heavy/vanguard. Just because he doesn't look like a heavy (like, no armour at all on him) and he doesn't really share any characteristics with a heavy. I mean okay, he can get hyper armour on his forward leap and, for seemingly no reason, on his side heavy after blade blockade but the Kensei and Zerker also can get hyper armour on some moves. He also doesn't have a lot of health.

So really the only thing he has that could come from a Heavy class is the high damage on his chained heavy finishers. But again, Zerker has one of the most high damage heavies in the game and he's an assassin. Kinda puts the Highlander to shame, that poor bastard. The devs have eccentric ways of categorising a hero, I'll say that much.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 09:23 PM
So really the only thing he has that could come from a Heavy class is the high damage on his chained heavy finishers. But again, Zerker has one of the most high damage heavies in the game and he's an assassin. Kinda puts the Highlander to shame, that poor bastard. The devs have eccentric ways of categorising a hero, I'll say that much.

Yer it really bugs me heavies have nothing but armour as a strength compared to assassins, yet the best way to not take damage, is not get hit, which assassins excel at, probably even more than they should. If you can't even hit them with a light attack, what's the point of even trying, especially if they are counter guardbreak masters too.

Sorry, this is really starting to bug me as I figure out why assassins are so popular.

BarbeQMichael
01-04-2018, 10:01 PM
Yer it really bugs me heavies have nothing but armour as a strength compared to assassins, yet the best way to not take damage, is not get hit, which assassins excel at, probably even more than they should. If you can't even hit them with a light attack, what's the point of even trying, especially if they are counter guardbreak masters too.

Sorry, this is really starting to bug me as I figure out why assassins are so popular.

Assassins currently include the best heroes, simply due to them having the best parameters. They deal more damage and they do it faster than other heroes, they can hide their guard stance and make dem 400/500ms attacks even more impossible to block, they can deflect when parry would not get reward, they move&dodge faster thus they can keep outside the attack radius and only close in when attacking, then retreat before the enemy can attack back, and they can do dodge attack to counter most moves what are considered as the only special other heroes have. All this comes with cost of having about one (or less) light attack worth less hitpoints.

M_Rat13
01-04-2018, 10:16 PM
Assassins currently include the best heroes, simply due to them having the best parameters. They deal more damage and they do it faster than other heroes, they can hide their guard stance and make dem 400/500ms attacks even more impossible to block, they can deflect when parry would not get reward, they move&dodge faster thus they can keep outside the attack radius and only close in when attacking, then retreat before the enemy can attack back, and they can do dodge attack to counter most moves what are considered as the only special other heroes have. All this comes with cost of having about one (or less) light attack worth less hitpoints.

A paragraph of benefits yet only a sentence of weakness. Add to that said weakness isn't an issue if you can't be hit, and that somehow doesn't sound balanced?

I feel like I should be missing something?

bob333e
01-04-2018, 10:29 PM
Kensei isn't terrible against assassins he's just difficult to play as he has so many bad matchups due to his obsolete kit. If you're having a problem with super aggressive assassins I would recommend the Kensei out of all the Vanguards. He's got a medium amount of health, his top light is still a 500ms light, i.e. it's quite fast, he can punish via dodge strikes which then lead directly into his mixup mind game. Two of his mixup options are perfect for handling aggressive assassins - the soft cancel into GB catches assassins who are fond of dodge strikes and the hyper armoured side heavies are a very good way to punch through a flurry of assassin's light strikes. Kensei also gets very good damage from a wall splat via his top heavy unblockable which is able to quickly take away a decent chunk out of the squishy health of most assassins.

The only problem that is stopping Kensei from being a high tier character is that he has absolutely no options when the opponent goes passive and turtles him. Hopefully his upcoming rework will sort that part of his kit out.

The next best character to use against assassins is the Aramusha (Season 4 character) - his infinite chain can be devastating for an assassin's reflex guard and his mixup game in general can be quite tricky for casual players. I personaly also find the Highlander (Season 3 character) to be quite successful against assassins and there are some players that see great success with the Shugoki against assassins.

Right. Apologies about that post. It was half-arsedly thrown on here while I was half-awake and already panting from all the chatting in the centurion thread last night. Because I was actually doing an effort to calm it all down. On which note, I'm glad it's now closed, as some others attempted to further flame bitebug2003 way past the sellpoint and without any necessity to do so, and after I also explicitly asked one of them to put it behind him and move on. Also, thanks for backing me up on there, even though I never asked. I owe you one.

Also @ChampionRuby and @Tundra if you're reading this, thanks for your assistance too. At least we tried. Let's hope our effort bears fruit in the future.

Charmzzz
01-05-2018, 09:39 AM
Assassins currently include the best heroes, simply due to them having the best parameters. They deal more damage and they do it faster than other heroes, they can hide their guard stance and make dem 400/500ms attacks even more impossible to block, they can deflect when parry would not get reward, they move&dodge faster thus they can keep outside the attack radius and only close in when attacking, then retreat before the enemy can attack back, and they can do dodge attack to counter most moves what are considered as the only special other heroes have. All this comes with cost of having about one (or less) light attack worth less hitpoints.

I just comment on some of your "arguments":
- "deal more damage and they do it faster":
1. Kensei Light Top is 20 Damage @500ms which makes it the third best Light Attack in the game (Orochi double Top Light is 32 Damage @500ms and Shinobi is 24 Damage @500ms). Every other Light Attack is between 12 and 18 Damage. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0
2. Heavy Attacks on Assassins are not faster than on any other class, see above Spreadsheet second page.
3. Almost EVERY class in the game has a 500ms Attack (only Raider, Shugo, Nobu dont have one - Highlander only in Off Stance).

- "they can hide their guard stance and make dem 400/500ms attacks..."
1. Reflex Guard has two BIG disadvantages: you cannot dodge-roll until the guard decayed after you switched your stance and a good feint game will let you eat heavy attacks (I do that to opponent Assassins alot when I am on my Warden)
2. 400ms Attacks in the game: PK Zone, PK second Light, Warden running Attack, Shaman Heavy Top Dodge Attack. Every other 400ms move is a melee with only Shamans Predator's Mercy possibly dealing Damage, e.g. every GB is 400ms, Conqueror running Shield Bash, Warlord running Charge. Btw Lawbringer Impale is 300ms.

- "they can deflect when parry would not get reward"
1. Deflect is harder to pull off than parry and has a high risk (feint into GB, Hyperarmor on enemy) for only mediocre reward (Zerker being the exception here with a guaranteed GB).

- "they move&dodge faster"
1. Running speeds got corrected and there is no movement stat on gear anymore. PK is the fastest running character except Shinobi sprinting. But when locked on this is nonsense anyway.
2. Dodge "faster"? Maybe they dodge a longer distance, but the invulnerability frames are the same in my experience (have a Rep 17 Warden who has sh*tty small dodges).
3. Dodge Recovery: PK and Shaman have 500ms on all sides which makes them overall the best recoveries except Nobushi because she resets her Attack recovery with it. Warden (300ms) and Lawbringer (400ms) forward Dodge recoveries are the "best" in the game.

- "they can do dodge attack to counter most moves"
1. Kensei? Valkyrie?
2. Bait a Dodge Attack with a heavy feint and GB / parry it? I stopped using Dodge Attacks on my PK and Glad, only use it for enemy melee moves which cannot be feinted.

Sorry, but you are pretty biased concerning Assassins. You forget that every hero has advantages and disadvantages. As an Assassin it is pretty hard to kill a Heavy who knows what he is doing, at least in my skill rating. Try to kill a full-defense Lawbringer who block-shoves you all day and keeps his guard to his right side with me being PK. Assassins mostly lack a good opener, and when they have one it is punishable very hard (e.g. Shinobi Kick).

M_Rat13
01-05-2018, 07:53 PM
Sorry, but you are pretty biased concerning Assassins. You forget that every hero has advantages and disadvantages. As an Assassin it is pretty hard to kill a Heavy who knows what he is doing, at least in my skill rating. Try to kill a full-defense Lawbringer who block-shoves you all day and keeps his guard to his right side with me being PK. Assassins mostly lack a good opener, and when they have one it is punishable very hard (e.g. Shinobi Kick).

So your saying heavies have a good opener? Heavies basically have to hope assassins mess up, otherwise they're just a big punching bag for the enemy.

Klingentaenz3r
01-05-2018, 10:09 PM
I mean okay, he can get hyper armour on his forward leap and, for seemingly no reason, on his side heavy after blade blockade.

to counter attack chains and to prevent that you are getting hit out of it, just like on orochi's hurrican blast. Try it for example against valk *flies away* Not advisable to use after just a sole attack from neutral (you know why)

ChampionRuby50g
01-06-2018, 01:12 AM
Right. Apologies about that post. It was half-arsedly thrown on here while I was half-awake and already panting from all the chatting in the centurion thread last night. Because I was actually doing an effort to calm it all down. On which note, I'm glad it's now closed, as some others attempted to further flame bitebug2003 way past the sellpoint and without any necessity to do so, and after I also explicitly asked one of them to put it behind him and move on. Also, thanks for backing me up on there, even though I never asked. I owe you one.

Also @ChampionRuby and @Tundra if you're reading this, thanks for your assistance too. At least we tried. Let's hope our effort bears fruit in the future.

I feel my assistance was more just stating my opinions and thoughts in the least aggressive way I could. I tried to not be over the top aggressive and flat out rude to bitebug, but I will still stand by saying that I wasn't impressed at all with them over the past 2-3 days due to reason's I had already stated and don't need to repeat. I tried to capture what I felt to be the communnities feelings in my comments (I can't say how well I actually did capture them), as I am just incredibly over the lackluster efforts recently. In saying that, I respect the mods and realize they are just people doing their jobs, even if I currently think they could be doing them a bit better. All in all, probably a good thing that thread was closed. I thought you handled yourself very well with your calm tone and trying to diffuse the situation.