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View Full Version : Nerf raider and delete centurion



SaschoS
01-03-2018, 10:53 AM
Raider really needs a nerf along with some other chars. Centurion what could I say... This poor dude is a star that is showing what it means a poor designed char. He can't even kill anybody now unless there is a wall behind his target. He is just pathetic from his jumps to his voice. Please remove him or redo him and please do not add new heroes until 2019 (they are just not tested well enough).

Charmzzz
01-03-2018, 11:08 AM
Any suggestions for the Raider nerf? I agree that he is one of the best heroes in Dominion atm due to stunning tap unblockable mixups, his stampede and his parry punish ability.
Any suggestions for the Centurion rework?

Just saying "Mimimi, everything is bad" won't help. Give some suggestions or thoughts at least why you think that those 2 heroes should be changed, maybe even how.

BarbeQMichael
01-03-2018, 02:00 PM
Cent still gets free cutscene from wallsplat? I don't think the combo itself should be removed, rather just make it not guaranteed so you can actually try to counter and punish it if you succeed. I don't remember any other hero getting free 60 dmg from guardbreak, even shrek hug deals only 40 although it heals too. I don't know how good raider is in gank modes as I don't play them, but I can imagine his cc being useful there. In duels however he is mostly useless, at least on plat/diamond level where spamming slow unblockable doesn't work anymore

Tundra 793
01-03-2018, 02:04 PM
I wouldn't even flinch if the Centurion was gone tomorrow. The character was critically flawed from the start. For me, it was never a question of stats or how OP or underpowered he was.
He was, and is, just hilariously unfunny to fight. Stat tweaks and balance can't change the way he plays, which is frustrating.

Hopefully the developers just learn not to make heroes like him ever ag- oh no wait...

BTTrinity
01-03-2018, 02:51 PM
Raider really needs a nerf along with some other chars. Centurion what could I say... This poor dude is a star that is showing what it means a poor designed char. He can't even kill anybody now unless there is a wall behind his target. He is just pathetic from his jumps to his voice. Please remove him or redo him and please do not add new heroes until 2019 (they are just not tested well enough).

Honestly the only thing that erks me about Raider is when he throws/stampede charges you he takes over half your stamina while you're just sitting there on his shoulder. Stamina drain should only occur on a wallsplat.

Edit: If were deleting heroes my vote goes to Shaman.

BarbeQMichael
01-03-2018, 03:12 PM
Honestly the only thing that erks me about Raider is when he throws/stampede charges you he takes over half your stamina while you're just sitting there on his shoulder. Stamina drain should only occur on a wallsplat.

This, it's not like there is no wall within carry range in normal situation unless you play in gank modes with the bigger maps. And in those modes there will be soldiers and other players everywhere and I think hitting them while carrying drains stamina too from your victim.

PDXGorechild
01-03-2018, 03:23 PM
I wouldn't even flinch if the Centurion was gone tomorrow. The character was critically flawed from the start. For me, it was never a question of stats or how OP or underpowered he was.
He was, and is, just hilariously unfunny to fight. Stat tweaks and balance can't change the way he plays, which is frustrating.

Hopefully the developers just learn not to make heroes like him ever ag- oh no wait...

Centurion is by far the worst though, isn't he? The highly viable kits and high numbers of the new classes is annoying, especially when you main a neglected OG class, but nowhere near as annoying as a class that is built around one combo which stun-locks you and prevents you from reacting. Just as boring to play as or against as the Rogue was on world of warcraft.


Honestly the only thing that erks me about Raider is when he throws/stampede charges you he takes over half your stamina while you're just sitting there on his shoulder. Stamina drain should only occur on a wallsplat.

Edit: If were deleting heroes my vote goes to Shaman.

Raider is a tricky one. I do honestly think his stamina drain is too high, as is Cent's still. If some characters are going to have this level of stamina drainage, I think Ubi needs to give every class a stamina drain ability. The problem I face against Raiders in gold/diamond is that they will simply wait for parry before doing the shoulder carry > wallsplat > unblockable combo. Over and a over. Perhaps he needs some other viable moves. I don't play as him ever, but that's what it seems like when playing against them.

BarbeQMichael
01-03-2018, 03:39 PM
simply wait for parry before doing the shoulder carry > wallsplat > unblockable combo
Raider gets out only light after kneeing face (30dmg total). I agree though the parry waiting is just boring because it is by far safest way and with some heroes the most profitable way, like the cent who gets 60dmg out of it

Charmzzz
01-03-2018, 04:11 PM
Raider gets out only light after kneeing face (30dmg total). I agree though the parry waiting is just boring because it is by far safest way and with some heroes the most profitable way, like the cent who gets 60dmg out of it

Nope. One parry into wallsplat mostly lets you end up OOS and with no HUD due to the stun effect, Raider now can easily mixup his stunning taps / unblockables until you make a mistake and try to parry the UB which often ends up in you on the ground, OOS to 0 again eating a 65 Damage combo.

PDXGorechild
01-03-2018, 04:23 PM
Raider gets out only light after kneeing face (30dmg total). I agree though the parry waiting is just boring because it is by far safest way and with some heroes the most profitable way, like the cent who gets 60dmg out of it

Yeah but...


Nope. One parry into wallsplat mostly lets you end up OOS and with no HUD due to the stun effect, Raider now can easily mixup his stunning taps / unblockables until you make a mistake and try to parry the UB which often ends up in you on the ground, OOS to 0 again eating a 65 Damage combo.

What he said. I know the zone is just about react-able, but it's difficult due to the free stun tap that all good raiders will do. So this is 30 guaranteed damage as well as your character having low or no stamina, being on the backfoot against a wall, and having to block/parry attacks without a HUD.

It's not as bad as Cent's wallsplat but still good enough a tactic for players to abuse over and over and over again, to the point where they don't actually need to do anything else.

(Parry is a huge part of the problem...)

BarbeQMichael
01-03-2018, 04:41 PM
Nope. One parry into wallsplat mostly lets you end up OOS and with no HUD due to the stun effect, Raider now can easily mixup his stunning taps / unblockables until you make a mistake and try to parry the UB which often ends up in you on the ground, OOS to 0 again eating a 65 Damage combo.
Nope? It either is or it is not guaranteed, and it is not guaranteed if he plays mindgames and wins you at it. All heroes are capable of netting high damage with succesful combos, but they are not guaranteed. Besides, if doing from full stamina, after the carry raider has stamina to do the zone twice, go figure how many mixups he can do from there

Wallsplat ends OOS if you attacked with low stamina, and no one does it if they know what they are doing. Wallsplat actually does not drain stamina by game mechanics, it rather sets it to new value. You can see this if your carry depletes enemy's stamina close to zero, between 0-20%, after the knee hit it is set to the 20%.

PDXGorechild
01-03-2018, 05:27 PM
Nope? It either is or it is not guaranteed, and it is not guaranteed if he plays mindgames and wins you at it. All heroes are capable of netting high damage with succesful combos, but they are not guaranteed. Besides, if doing from full stamina, after the carry raider has stamina to do the zone twice, go figure how many mixups he can do from there

Wallsplat ends OOS if you attacked with low stamina, and no one does it if they know what they are doing. Wallsplat actually does not drain stamina by game mechanics, it rather sets it to new value. You can see this if your carry depletes enemy's stamina close to zero, between 0-20%, after the knee hit it is set to the 20%.

I think what weíre trying to say is that we consider that overpowered, not that it is guaranteed. On a really good day, if I havenít been stupid and left myself open to having no stamina at the end of a raider opponents charge, I can block or parry the attacks after being kneeíd and stunning tapped. But itís difficult. This is a very powerful series of attacks, so powerful that itís pretty much all I ever see raiders do in higher level tournaments. I lose to it fairly often and feel itís boring.

My gripe isnít that I feel itís totally unrectable and want it gone from the game, just that Iíd like to see raider with some different options so that he isnít so monotonous and annoying to fight in 1v1, like cent is/was.

Edit; Or they could, ya know, hurry up and take free GB away from parry then he wonít be able to do it so often...

BarbeQMichael
01-03-2018, 05:47 PM
I think what we’re trying to say is that we consider that overpowered, not that it is guaranteed. On a really good day, if I haven’t been stupid and left myself open to having no stamina at the end of a raider opponents charge, I can block or parry the attacks after being knee’d and stunning tapped. But it’s difficult. This is a very powerful series of attacks, so powerful that it’s pretty much all I ever see raiders do in higher level tournaments. I lose to it fairly often and feel it’s boring.

My gripe isn’t that I feel it’s totally unrectable and want it gone from the game, just that I’d like to see raider with some different options so that he isn’t so monotonous and annoying to fight in 1v1, like cent is/was.

Edit; Or they could, ya know, hurry up and take free GB away from parry then he won’t be able to do it so often...

I'm not sure if I still get what you mean, as after the knee, all raider gets is a light, which totals for 30dmg. If he tries to do anything else, you can react to it and rekt him. Raider was actually the best performing character at alpha/beta due to people not knowing how to parry the UB because they were so rare then, but now, what I see as a plat 4 no one dares to even try anything but the guaranteed light after knee, as trying zone just gets him killed. The zone has fixed times when it can be feinted, so it (or the tap) can be parried or dodged safely, not to mention you can simply gb or light attack as a fast char to interrupt it.

PDXGorechild
01-03-2018, 09:19 PM
I'm not sure if I still get what you mean, as after the knee, all raider gets is a light, which totals for 30dmg. If he tries to do anything else, you can react to it and rekt him. Raider was actually the best performing character at alpha/beta due to people not knowing how to parry the UB because they were so rare then, but now, what I see as a plat 4 no one dares to even try anything but the guaranteed light after knee, as trying zone just gets him killed. The zone has fixed times when it can be feinted, so it (or the tap) can be parried or dodged safely, not to mention you can simply gb or light attack as a fast char to interrupt it.

30 damage taken, stunned, now likely next to a wall, probably out of stamina unless you had well above half before he charged you, and youíve gotta defend against any follow up attacks without indicators and potentially have to be able to time a parry. Thatís if he hasnít run you off a cliff.

Just seems like quite a lot of reward for being guaranteed if youíre anywhere near a wall and get parried to me.

Hormly
01-04-2018, 02:22 AM
The stun tap is totally reactable

Charmzzz
01-04-2018, 09:08 AM
As PDXGorechild said, it is just too much off a reward from a parry. Compare it to other heavy parry rewards -> most heroes get a free heavy for ~30-40 damage and that's it. No stamina drain plus 30 damage plus stun (no HUD for the next attack). And it even is a stunlock move, in 4v4 Modes every opponent can let you eat heavy attacks while you are carried / wallsplatted until the whole animation is over.... All of this from ONE parry? How is that balanced?

PDXGorechild
01-04-2018, 10:57 AM
As PDXGorechild said, it is just too much off a reward from a parry. Compare it to other heavy parry rewards -> most heroes get a free heavy for ~30-40 damage and that's it. No stamina drain plus 30 damage plus stun (no HUD for the next attack). And it even is a stunlock move, in 4v4 Modes every opponent can let you eat heavy attacks while you are carried / wallsplatted until the whole animation is over.... All of this from ONE parry? How is that balanced?

Is heavy, side, basic the right numbers for most classes with a GB?

H, S, B - 30 25 33 30 40 30 33 25 40 40 30 30 25 30 25/30 30 25 27.

This averages at 29 damage. Granted a few classes get a top heavy off GB, but a couple don't get a heavy at all.

So Raider gets slightly above average damage with his parry punish combo, plus all the other, aforementioned stuff.

BarbeQMichael
01-04-2018, 11:26 AM
As PDXGorechild said, it is just too much off a reward from a parry. Compare it to other heavy parry rewards -> most heroes get a free heavy for ~30-40 damage and that's it. No stamina drain plus 30 damage plus stun (no HUD for the next attack). And it even is a stunlock move, in 4v4 Modes every opponent can let you eat heavy attacks while you are carried / wallsplatted until the whole animation is over.... All of this from ONE parry? How is that balanced?

30dmg is indeed quite average in damage for parry reward and has the stamina drain in addition, but the stun effect is there for the light, it wears off after it so it has nothing to do with attacks coming after it.

Charmzzz
01-04-2018, 12:00 PM
Is heavy, side, basic the right numbers for most classes with a GB?

H, S, B - 30 25 33 30 40 30 33 25 40 40 30 30 25 30 25/30 30 25 27.

This averages at 29 damage. Granted a few classes get a top heavy off GB, but a couple don't get a heavy at all.

So Raider gets slightly above average damage with his parry punish combo, plus all the other, aforementioned stuff.

Well, some heroes get different rewards, e.g.: PK triple stab for 38 Damage or double stab - wall splat combo for 55 Damage (but this takes ages and PK does not have Hyperarmor on any move), Shugo does get his "hole in one" shot for 25 Damage, Kensei gets a 40 Damage side heavy, so the rewards differ and you cannot only compare the side heavy damages. But yes, Raider gets alot compared to other classes (and he is Hyperarmored during Stampede so he will get his rewards for sure).


30dmg is indeed quite average in damage for parry reward and has the stamina drain in addition, but the stun effect is there for the light, it wears off after it so it has nothing to do with attacks coming after it.

IF you do the Light. If you use the stun effect for the Zone mixup - there you go for a much bigger possible punish. If you just repeat this "50:50" stunning tap / zone game - your opponent will fall for it soon. And don't forget that you have 3 options after stunning tap landed: zone, stunning tap, GB. That is so hard to read when HUD is disabled and the whole screen is shimmering...

BarbeQMichael
01-04-2018, 12:12 PM
IF you do the Light. If you use the stun effect for the Zone mixup - there you go for a much bigger possible punish. If you just repeat this "50:50" stunning tap / zone game - your opponent will fall for it soon. And don't forget that you have 3 options after stunning tap landed: zone, stunning tap, GB. That is so hard to read when HUD is disabled and the whole screen is shimmering...

The wallstun does not prevent you from cgb, or parrying (zone has fixed timing and direction). In most cases doing gb right after getting knee'd is actually profitable: If raider goes for light, he gets it as its guaranteed, if he goes for zone, you WILL gb him during the startup and can proceed to wallstun him and punish with whatever your hero has.

I do not play dominion and cannot say how it is there, altough sounds bad (well I hear many heroes have gimmicks there). But I play duels and brawls as plat 4 and there raiders are mostly extinct, because they are just so slow (600ms attack is fastest) and have to rely only on feinting into top light and parrycarry.

edit:gb has also so distinctive audio cue that you can cgb even with monitor turned off

PDXGorechild
01-04-2018, 12:29 PM
But I play duels and brawls as plat 4 and there raiders are mostly extinct, because they are just so slow (600ms attack is fastest) and have to rely only on feinting into top light and parrycarry.

This was my point in the first place dude. I still see a fair amount of raiders in tournament and they use "Parry carry" repeatedly. Whatever you wanna say about it, it is a dangerous move with decent confirmed reward and the potential for high reward if the raider plays his cards right. A good Raider can and will utilise this combo repeatedly. My point of raising this is that it's boring to play against but unfortunately is one of his only viable tactics, hence why i'd like to see him with others options.

BarbeQMichael
01-04-2018, 12:37 PM
This was my point in the first place dude. I still see a fair amount of raiders in tournament and they use "Parry carry" repeatedly. Whatever you wanna say about it, it is a dangerous move with decent confirmed reward and the potential for high reward if the raider plays his cards right. A good Raider can and will utilise this combo repeatedly. My point of raising this is that it's boring to play against but unfortunately is one of his only viable tactics, hence why i'd like to see him with others options.

This I agree with, Raider along with most old heroes should get the rework as they have to rely on many cases for 1 or 2 moves. Like orochi has massive 32dmg for 500ms top light and very fast zone, but otherwise is crap, conq who can just shield bash and you cannot use heavies against him and so on.

PDXGorechild
01-04-2018, 02:11 PM
This I agree with, Raider along with most old heroes should get the rework as they have to rely on many cases for 1 or 2 moves. Like orochi has massive 32dmg for 500ms top light and very fast zone, but otherwise is crap, conq who can just shield bash and you cannot use heavies against him and so on.

True, all the originals need some work done. Some need tweaks, some buffs, some need total reworks.

Personally i'd hoped they'd fix parry before re-balancing classes as this could be a game changer for some classes. But we'll just have to wait and see..