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View Full Version : I don't understand the obsession with mix-ups and fast light-spam



Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 09:26 PM
Now, hold on. I get it. The Defensive Meta (still not sure how or why it's terrible, really) isn't great. "Whoever parries first, wins" is not a good system. But is "whoever attacks first, wins" any better? Honestly? All it does is encourage taking stupid risks and/or cheating with exploits. And, unfortunately, not everyone is a hyper-aggressive, thoughtless gremlin who just throws a torrent of attacks with no thought spared for defense whenever they get in a fight, whether in real life, or in game. Some people are more methodical and don't enjoy taking stupid risks for the sake of entertaining other people.

Is a turtle-fest boring to watch? Maybe. But it's not boring for the turtler. Honestly, seeing a deluge of feints and cheeky guard breaks is really boring to me- despite how it's considered "high-level play". I just look at two people constantly feinting and doing "mixups" and think... "no one fights like that. A real person doesn't do that". There are 16 different personality types- restricting the player-base to acting as though they all are of one or two of them by punishing any other type of approach to the game mechanics, all for the sake of entertaining bystanders or fulfilling the vision that the devs have for the game is just plain insulting.

And, really, why are mixups considered skillful? It's literally just an extra button press, or two. It shouldn't be as rewarding as it tends to be. More often than not, these "mixups" just get repeated over and over and over in the same pre-memorized sequence of button-inputs that the person in question is really not putting much thought into. It's a good memory game, but calling it "skill" is a bit of a joke.
More than that, it discourages parrying. When fighting a Warden or Berserker, you may as well keep your index finger glued to the right bumper, because you're not gonna be parrying anything they throw at you. Don't bother trying, it won't end well.

So far, Aramusha is basically the love-child of Peacekeeper Light-spam and Berserker Feint-addiction. Only it's exceedingly more annoying than either of the two Season 1 Heroes. Shaman is... surprisingly, easier to deal with. It's just that she gets off free damage every 2 or 3 seconds with her soft-feints and bleeds.

In any case, on an unrelated note: if Shugoki's Headbutt does no damage, why does the Gladiator's Jab do? Both strikes are to the face. And both are, more or less, free hits.

Tundra 793
12-12-2017, 09:42 PM
The Defensive Meta (still not sure how or why it's terrible, really)

As I've understood, and experienced it; The Defensive Meta, which has existed since launch, simply means that there has always been a signifigant advantage in playing defensively, relying on parries to punish your enemies. There was simply no upside to playing aggressively, when you could achieve more with turtling.
This is terribly because it encourages one dimensional tactics. Sure console players experienced it less, but it was still there.


"Whoever parries first, wins" is not a good system. But is "whoever attacks first, wins" any better?

Both are equally ****. The developers appear to have built the new heroes around just, blunt forcing their way through the defensive meta, but never bothering to actually fix it, which is why the new heroes feel vastly different than the standard heroes, and why several old heroes are now getting a massive overhaul.

To me, it's just bad game design. It feels like all new heroes, Highlander excluded, were made with the mantra "Faster! More Intense!" and nothing else.

In my opinion, the developers seriously, greviously screwed up the DLC heroes by focusing far too much on speed, and unblockables, and not making a single new Heavy hero to balance it all out.

High-Horse
12-12-2017, 09:42 PM
Well for one thing, classes like berserker and kensei rely on feints because of their limited kits.

And for another, mixups are about testing the opponent's reactions and adjusting. It's not mindless spamming, it's making good reads and changing actions on the fly to adapt. What's the opposite of a MINDgame? Mindless game? Without mixups, sounds like you want a game where people just sit there while you attack, or just attack you in a predictable fashion that you can handle.

Even in real fighting, it's about mixups. Throwing jabs to test, faking a hit with one side to distract you from the other, or two hits that start out looking the same: are they going for a high hook or a low liver shot? Nobody fights by just throwing out punches and hope they land. People don't want to get hit and will try to not let you do that. Hence mixups to trick them into letting their guard down.

Also, Glad Jab only does damage with a feat activated.

Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 09:49 PM
Well for one thing, classes like berserker and kensei rely on feints because of their limited kits.

And for another, mixups are about testing the opponent's reactions and adjusting. It's not mindless spamming, it's making good reads and changing actions on the fly to adapt. What's the opposite of a MINDgame? Mindless game? Without mixups, sounds like you want a game where people just sit there while you attack, or just attack you in a predictable fashion that you can handle.

Even in real fighting, it's about mixups. Throwing jabs to test, faking a hit with one side to distract you from the other, or two hits that start out looking the same: are they going for a high hook or a low liver shot? Nobody fights by just throwing out punches and hope they land. People don't want to get hit and will try to not let you do that. Hence mixups to trick them into letting their guard down.

Also, Glad Jab only does damage with a feat activated.

Kind of sounds like you've never been in an actual fight.

And, no- I want a game where you have to predict your opponents next move and make up a plan on the fly.

CandleInTheDark
12-12-2017, 09:51 PM
As I've understood, and experienced it; The Defensive Meta, which has existed since launch, simply means that there has always been a signifigant advantage in playing defensively, relying on parries to punish your enemies. There was simply no upside to playing aggressively, when you could achieve more with turtling.
This is terribly because it encourages one dimensional tactics. Sure console players experienced it less, but it was still there.



Both are equally ****. The developers appear to have built the new heroes around just, blunt forcing their way through the defensive meta, but never bothering to actually fix it, which is why the new heroes feel vastly different than the standard heroes, and why several old heroes are now getting a massive overhaul.

To me, it's just bad game design. It feels like all new heroes, Highlander excluded, were made with the mantra "Faster! More Intense!" and nothing else.

In my opinion, the developers seriously, greviously screwed up the DLC heroes by focusing far too much on speed, and unblockables, and not making a single new Heavy hero to balance it all out.

While for the most part I think you are right, one thing I would say is that if the devs deliberately did the same classes for each faction, I can see the reasoning behind it. While we have threads complaining about all the new assassins, there are people who only play the characters in their faction, if say the knights were the only faction to get an assassin, or if the samurai were the only ones not to I could see threads asking instead where is my assassin,

I would like to see some vanguards and heavies coming but I can't fault them for three assassins and three hybrids that fill gaps in hybrid class combinations.

High-Horse
12-12-2017, 09:54 PM
Kind of sounds like you've never been in an actual fight.

And, no- I want a game where you have to predict your opponents next move and make up a plan on the fly.

Well that's 50/50 where you guess what they're gonna do and hope you get the better odds. I like a game based on back and forth reaction. The problem with this game is there's no back and forth, just waiting and baiting for parries.

Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 09:57 PM
Well that's 50/50 where you guess what they're gonna do and hope you get the better odds. I like a game based on back and forth reaction. The problem with this game is there's no back and forth, just waiting and baiting for parries.

I see the opposite problem. I see people repeating the same exact sequence of attacks and button-inputs, over and over again, and only getting away with it because there's no good way to react to it.

Tundra 793
12-12-2017, 10:02 PM
While for the most part I think you are right, one thing I would say is that if the devs deliberately did the same classes for each faction, I can see the reasoning behind it. While we have threads complaining about all the new assassins, there are people who only play the characters in their faction, if say the knights were the only faction to get an assassin, or if the samurai were the only ones not to I could see threads asking instead where is my assassin,

I would like to see some vanguards and heavies coming but I can't fault them for three assassins and three hybrids that fill gaps in hybrid class combinations.

A fair point, and I do agree, mostly. An argument could be made that having one specific type hero appear more frequently within 1 faction might help develop a stronger faction identity, but I can see why people want equal heroes all around.

The thing that irks me is that, Highlander excluded, even the Hybrids we've been getting are still built around the same concept of either fast attacks, or a cavalcade of unblockables, and sometimes both. Whether these traits are on a Hybrid or an Assassin isn't as important as their mere inclusion and strong focus.
We could have gotten some manner of Heavy/Vanguard Hybrids, but the devs, for whatever reason, focus on Assassin's, and Assassin Hybrids.

I fear for the long term health of For Honor if we're not getting more variety in heroes during the course of a year.

AkenoKobayashi
12-12-2017, 10:04 PM
Have you ever seen untrained people fight before? Like, at high school or on the street? All it is is wimpy rabbit punches to see who can overwhelm the other first. Then again...it's with fists and not bladed weapons. But you get the point.

Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 10:07 PM
Have you ever seen untrained people fight before? Like, at high school or on the street? All it is is wimpy rabbit punches to see who can overwhelm the other first. Then again...it's with fists and not bladed weapons. But you get the point.

I'm speaking of trained fighters. Not inexperienced whelps who think that they have the world figured out at 18.

High-Horse
12-12-2017, 10:19 PM
I see the opposite problem. I see people repeating the same exact sequence of attacks and button-inputs, over and over again, and only getting away with it because there's no good way to react to it.

Outside of network issues, yes you can react, especially if you're seeing the same patterns consistently.

Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 10:21 PM
Outside of network issues, yes you can react, especially if you're seeing the same patterns consistently.

It's not optimized, though, is it? Not everyone uses a PC, and not everyone has the reflexes of a crack-addict who's high on Adderall.

High-Horse
12-12-2017, 10:31 PM
It's not optimized, though, is it? Not everyone uses a PC, and not everyone has the reflexes of a crack-addict who's high on Adderall.

It probably isn't, but it's not the first or fastest fighter in console. Console needs higher FPS and maybe even separate balance updates.

Alustar.
12-12-2017, 10:53 PM
Kind of sounds like you've never been in an actual fight.

And, no- I want a game where you have to predict your opponents next move and make up a plan on the fly.

I've been in a few and that's exactly how it works.

AlexHuaTian
12-12-2017, 11:18 PM
I think the game was fine. Except they should get rid of revenge. Some classes are built around defensive play. Plate armor. shields and stuff. So they should be harder to take down. And the shields should be easier to block with than with a sword. But whats with people going all super charged because they get attacked from behind. And whats with people being able to block strikes when their back is turned? lol

Archo-Vax
12-12-2017, 11:27 PM
I've been in a few and that's exactly how it works.

Maybe in a fight between two scrawny pukes who couldn't commit to a punch or overpower a person if their life depended on it.

High-Horse
12-13-2017, 12:00 AM
Maybe in a fight between two scrawny pukes who couldn't commit to a punch or overpower a person if their life depended on it.

What are you talking about? Do you think people feint because they're too scared to commit to a punch? Scrawny pukes (punks?) are the ones who try to flail around and overpower the other. Professional fighters use a wide range of techniques, including mind game tools like feinting. Like all the time, it's fundamental.

Alustar.
12-13-2017, 12:08 AM
What are you talking about? Do you think people feint because they're too scared to commit to a punch? Scrawny pukes (punks?) are the ones who try to flail around and overpower the other. Professional fighters use a wide range of techniques, including mind game tools like feinting. Like all the time, it's fundamental.

Exactly this, committing to a bad punch can be more detrimental to you than taking a pinch in most cases. The last street fight I was in that's what I did, I baited out a few wild, carelessly thrown baseball swings. After letting the first two whiff I was able to gauge the speed and power behind the attack. On the third instead of ducking back again, I pressed forward to take the blow and cradle his upper arm under mine. Which effectively neutralized any further aggression. Raw strength is only as good as the head guiding it.

CandleInTheDark
12-13-2017, 12:18 AM
Exactly this, committing to a bad punch can be more detrimental to you than taking a pinch in most cases.

If you watched McGregor vs Aldo, most people will tell you McGregor knocked him out in one seriously thrown punch, what they don't say is that Aldo's jaw was wide open when he lunged in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X70QLgxi02o

ChampionRuby50g
12-13-2017, 03:54 AM
It's called mix ups for a reason. You mix your moves up to constantly keep your opponent guessing. There is nothing calculating about staring at someone waiting for them to attack you for a parry.

Gladiators jab a free hit? The major difference is when Shugo headbutts you it's free, there is nothing I can think of in Glads moveset that confirms a jab. It's possible to dodge it completely, and even if you are hit by it you can still block or tech the following move. Nothing about it is free.

McGregor said that precision beats power and timing beats speed, which is exactly what he did with Aldo. You can see they tested each other out with a few hits before Aldo opened himself up and McGregor capitalised and used the precision and timing to knock him out within 17 seconds. As someone whose trained in MMA I can tell you that you have the complete wrong idea about fighting Archo, and that High Horse and Alustar are pretty bang on here.

You also mention "try parrying a Warden or Beserker..." like that is some sort of argument in your favour. I fail to see how, seeing as I have parried heaps of Beserkers and plenty more Wardens, all on their fast moves.

CandleInTheDark
12-13-2017, 04:49 AM
McGregor said that precision beats power and timing beats speed, which is exactly what he did with Aldo. You can see they tested each other out with a few hits before Aldo opened himself up and McGregor capitalised and used the precision and timing to knock him out within 17 seconds. As someone whose been in a few street fights and also trained in MMA I can tell you that you have the complete wrong idea about fighting Archo, and that High Horse and Alustar are pretty bang on here.

Thanks for a better explanation than I could give,I could see what they were doing but didn't really know how to make the point off of it outside what I said before lol. To add to that, these aren't some 'scrawny pukes', McGregor is a two weight champion and the last time Aldo lost a match was about ten years before that fight. Those that stand up rather than trying to grapple, feints and mixups to work their way in rather than waiting to block a punch tends to be the way they go, again with this video you can see that there is no time either of them are stood still staring at each other,there is always movement in both hands and feet.

ChampionRuby50g
12-13-2017, 06:28 AM
Thanks for a better explanation than I could give,I could see what they were doing but didn't really know how to make the point off of it outside what I said before lol. To add to that, these aren't some 'scrawny pukes', McGregor is a two weight champion and the last time Aldo lost a match was about ten years before that fight. Those that stand up rather than trying to grapple, feints and mixups to work their way in rather than waiting to block a punch tends to be the way they go, again with this video you can see that there is no time either of them are stood still staring at each other,there is always movement in both hands and feet.

I thought that you gave a good explanation yourself, nothing beats short and sweet. But I follow MMA a bit and because of my background I got a bit of experience with it. Both of them are phenomanal fighters.

You could almost compare the little feints they do and the constant touching as feinting in For Honor. McGregor doesn't like to go to ground as he knows that's where he is weaker, so aims to beat most fighters with his precision and superior timing. McGregor knows when to attack, and when to be defensive.

PDXGorechild
12-13-2017, 09:55 AM
Maybe in a fight between two scrawny pukes who couldn't commit to a punch or overpower a person if their life depended on it.

Been practising Muay Thai for a decade and that is exactly how it works. Everyone throws hits to gauge their opponent, i.e reaction speeds, distance between you both, seeing how your opponent reacts etc. Then you get some people who play on this style more than others, who feint strikes to trick their opponent. We call these people "Slippery" fighters.

Anyway, taking this out of real-life context as I feel this has veered a little off-topic. For Honour mirrors the above quite well, I think. All players will throw hits to gauge their opponent. Most players will feint occasionally. Some players use feints frequently in a particular combo like Centurion. Some players will feint/mix up constantly like Berserker and Kensei mains. It's a good variety I think and there are a nice mix of classes to suit your play-style.

For example: If I fight another Assassin as Berserker I won't bother with feints much. I'll go in hyper aggressive, lots of dodge and leap attacks, dance of the paired blades and maybe the odd soft feint. If they show me they aren't very good at blocking or parrying - i'll keep doing the same thing, usually ending in an easy victory. If they predict my attacks and keep parrying me i'll switch my style up to much more slippery and feint heavy. You adapt, you change, it's dynamic.


And, no- I want a game where you have to predict your opponents next move and make up a plan on the fly.

The direction you seem to want the game to go in is not the way everyone else in the community wants. Here you are describe the turtle meta. There are classes that play more like this than others, to good effect despite the plethora of fast attacks and unblockables, so go work out which ones are which. Your job will just be a bit more difficult than it was 8 months ago.

I do agree there is a saturation of Assassin like classes though. Hopefully they'll introduce vanguard-heavies to balance it out. Perhaps two more heroes based around this to make the roster a nice round 20? ;)

Playing_Mantis
12-13-2017, 11:52 AM
How boring would the game be if there were no mixups..just predictable ****? 2 turtles going at it is completely boring. I say reward the guy who is actually going to attack more than the dope that sits there for an hour looking at you. Not fun fighting turtles. Not fun playing as a turtle to me. Parries are hard to do vs a good feint player so i like the balance where it is.

Knight_Raime
12-13-2017, 01:24 PM
Lots of misconceptions or just plain wrong things. Let me break this down:

1) The defensive meta is bad because it highly rewarded defensive play. Which in turn super punished attacking/aggressive play. One style of play regardless of what style that is is not alright. Surely you can agree to this. Next what exactly have the developers done that makes "who attacks first wins" the case? Because there is no advantage at all to repeatedly attacking and going all out aggressive. Combos still do not happen. You're over generalizing aggressive play and shoe horning it to fit into your weak argument. Aggressive doesn't equal stupid spam.

2) "not boring to the turtler" is a gross assumption that is factually false. The WHOLE reason the defensive meta term was born and the devs bothered to change is because players who were pillars of the community got tired of playing this way. It wasn't fun to them. It was boring for them to sit there and do that.

3) This will be the one and only comment I have on realism. For honor is not a realistic game. Every move that exists in this game was specifically performed in mocap by theatrical people to make the moves look more entertaining from a spectators position. Warden spinning at top speed with his sword in his zone would surely chuck the sword or dislocate his arm. Centurion blocking full body weight swings with his ****ing gauntlet would break his arm. Berzerker spinning like an autistic child with her axe 4 times would not only not hit anyone but leave her wildly exposed. A person in lawbringers armor would literally be unable to roll. they would fall and stay down. Even rolling in wardens armor would require very intense training to do. And even then it wouldn't be as smooth or as quick as he does it. Vikings actually wore armor and were not half naked all the time. Point is. FH is not realistic. Never was. it's a fantasy game.

4) Again over generalizing things to fit your weak argument. Skill is not one category. There are several types of skill. Mechanical skill involves things like reflexes and inputs. Then there is the other kind of skill that involves mind games. Meta thinking over a match. Memorizing spawn times/areas etc. Mix ups, feint games, etc fall under this type of skill. It's incorrect to say one type of skill is more "skillful" than another. You can't physically quantify accurately how skillful something is. The point of a mix up is playing into mind games. For honor is not a traditional fighter since it lacks some normal mechanics that exist in other fighters like footsies and frame traps.

For honor is more akin to fencing. Where in (as someone who's actually fenced before) your goal is to attempt to confuse your opponent to force an opening to land a killing blow. This is why mix ups are needed. Mix ups force the defender to accurately read their opponent on the fly and react to it accordingly. The player attempting to do a mix up has to be aware of what the person can do against either move in said mix up and weigh what to risk. Anyway. if someone is constantly doing the same thing over and over it's not a mix up. As an example. If a warden lands a light then Shoulder barges then double lights and SB's then double lights etc that's not a mix up. It is 100% possible to predict through a mix up and block/parry the attack after. If you are struggling to do so either your reading skills are terrible or your reaction is terrible. And you're taking it out on the game.

You can't openly acknowledge that the game has the defensive meta at a high level play where a player is capable of defending against everything. While also incorrectly calling something a mix up and emperically stating you can't react to it.

5) Lastly your closing statement (not talking about the other realism comment) about aramusha just speaks miles to why this was created. You're struggling to deal with a new character. And you are stretching things to make your view more than fluff because of your own personal failings at the game. The game is still largely reaction based. All the devs are doing is making defensive play less rewarding (which indirectly makes attacking less punishing) in an attempt to allow fluid gameplay for both styles of play. The fact that you're struggling now only really proves that the games base mechanics at launch propped up your lack of capability to fight well and now that you actually have to do more to get more you are upset. And you choose to take it out on the game rather than seeking to improve yourself.

Alustar.
12-13-2017, 01:40 PM
^ this post is pure word porn. Gods, I loved every second of it.
Thank you.

bob333e
12-13-2017, 10:52 PM
Lots of misconceptions or just plain wrong things. Let me break this down:

1) The defensive meta is bad because it highly rewarded defensive play. Which in turn super punished attacking/aggressive play. One style of play regardless of what style that is is not alright. Surely you can agree to this. Next what exactly have the developers done that makes "who attacks first wins" the case? Because there is no advantage at all to repeatedly attacking and going all out aggressive. Combos still do not happen. You're over generalizing aggressive play and shoe horning it to fit into your weak argument. Aggressive doesn't equal stupid spam.

2) "not boring to the turtler" is a gross assumption that is factually false. The WHOLE reason the defensive meta term was born and the devs bothered to change is because players who were pillars of the community got tired of playing this way. It wasn't fun to them. It was boring for them to sit there and do that.

3) This will be the one and only comment I have on realism. For honor is not a realistic game. Every move that exists in this game was specifically performed in mocap by theatrical people to make the moves look more entertaining from a spectators position. Warden spinning at top speed with his sword in his zone would surely chuck the sword or dislocate his arm. Centurion blocking full body weight swings with his ****ing gauntlet would break his arm. Berzerker spinning like an autistic child with her axe 4 times would not only not hit anyone but leave her wildly exposed. A person in lawbringers armor would literally be unable to roll. they would fall and stay down. Even rolling in wardens armor would require very intense training to do. And even then it wouldn't be as smooth or as quick as he does it. Vikings actually wore armor and were not half naked all the time. Point is. FH is not realistic. Never was. it's a fantasy game.

4) Again over generalizing things to fit your weak argument. Skill is not one category. There are several types of skill. Mechanical skill involves things like reflexes and inputs. Then there is the other kind of skill that involves mind games. Meta thinking over a match. Memorizing spawn times/areas etc. Mix ups, feint games, etc fall under this type of skill. It's incorrect to say one type of skill is more "skillful" than another. You can't physically quantify accurately how skillful something is. The point of a mix up is playing into mind games. For honor is not a traditional fighter since it lacks some normal mechanics that exist in other fighters like footsies and frame traps.

For honor is more akin to fencing. Where in (as someone who's actually fenced before) your goal is to attempt to confuse your opponent to force an opening to land a killing blow. This is why mix ups are needed. Mix ups force the defender to accurately read their opponent on the fly and react to it accordingly. The player attempting to do a mix up has to be aware of what the person can do against either move in said mix up and weigh what to risk. Anyway. if someone is constantly doing the same thing over and over it's not a mix up. As an example. If a warden lands a light then Shoulder barges then double lights and SB's then double lights etc that's not a mix up. It is 100% possible to predict through a mix up and block/parry the attack after. If you are struggling to do so either your reading skills are terrible or your reaction is terrible. And you're taking it out on the game.

You can't openly acknowledge that the game has the defensive meta at a high level play where a player is capable of defending against everything. While also incorrectly calling something a mix up and emperically stating you can't react to it.

5) Lastly your closing statement (not talking about the other realism comment) about aramusha just speaks miles to why this was created. You're struggling to deal with a new character. And you are stretching things to make your view more than fluff because of your own personal failings at the game. The game is still largely reaction based. All the devs are doing is making defensive play less rewarding (which indirectly makes attacking less punishing) in an attempt to allow fluid gameplay for both styles of play. The fact that you're struggling now only really proves that the games base mechanics at launch propped up your lack of capability to fight well and now that you actually have to do more to get more you are upset. And you choose to take it out on the game rather than seeking to improve yourself.

Thanks much for writing this. I had written a journal just as long in this thread that re-railed the discussion back on point but, promptly deleted it after, as I felt I had sorta killed the mood. Much of what you said was a better worded version of what I had previously written. I agree with all the above.

Archo-Vax
12-13-2017, 10:58 PM
Lots of misconceptions or just plain wrong things. Let me break this down:

1) The defensive meta is bad because it highly rewarded defensive play. Which in turn super punished attacking/aggressive play. One style of play regardless of what style that is is not alright. Surely you can agree to this. Next what exactly have the developers done that makes "who attacks first wins" the case? Because there is no advantage at all to repeatedly attacking and going all out aggressive. Combos still do not happen. You're over generalizing aggressive play and shoe horning it to fit into your weak argument. Aggressive doesn't equal stupid spam.

2) "not boring to the turtler" is a gross assumption that is factually false. The WHOLE reason the defensive meta term was born and the devs bothered to change is because players who were pillars of the community got tired of playing this way. It wasn't fun to them. It was boring for them to sit there and do that.

3) This will be the one and only comment I have on realism. For honor is not a realistic game. Every move that exists in this game was specifically performed in mocap by theatrical people to make the moves look more entertaining from a spectators position. Warden spinning at top speed with his sword in his zone would surely chuck the sword or dislocate his arm. Centurion blocking full body weight swings with his ****ing gauntlet would break his arm. Berzerker spinning like an autistic child with her axe 4 times would not only not hit anyone but leave her wildly exposed. A person in lawbringers armor would literally be unable to roll. they would fall and stay down. Even rolling in wardens armor would require very intense training to do. And even then it wouldn't be as smooth or as quick as he does it. Vikings actually wore armor and were not half naked all the time. Point is. FH is not realistic. Never was. it's a fantasy game.

4) Again over generalizing things to fit your weak argument. Skill is not one category. There are several types of skill. Mechanical skill involves things like reflexes and inputs. Then there is the other kind of skill that involves mind games. Meta thinking over a match. Memorizing spawn times/areas etc. Mix ups, feint games, etc fall under this type of skill. It's incorrect to say one type of skill is more "skillful" than another. You can't physically quantify accurately how skillful something is. The point of a mix up is playing into mind games. For honor is not a traditional fighter since it lacks some normal mechanics that exist in other fighters like footsies and frame traps.

For honor is more akin to fencing. Where in (as someone who's actually fenced before) your goal is to attempt to confuse your opponent to force an opening to land a killing blow. This is why mix ups are needed. Mix ups force the defender to accurately read their opponent on the fly and react to it accordingly. The player attempting to do a mix up has to be aware of what the person can do against either move in said mix up and weigh what to risk. Anyway. if someone is constantly doing the same thing over and over it's not a mix up. As an example. If a warden lands a light then Shoulder barges then double lights and SB's then double lights etc that's not a mix up. It is 100% possible to predict through a mix up and block/parry the attack after. If you are struggling to do so either your reading skills are terrible or your reaction is terrible. And you're taking it out on the game.

You can't openly acknowledge that the game has the defensive meta at a high level play where a player is capable of defending against everything. While also incorrectly calling something a mix up and emperically stating you can't react to it.

5) Lastly your closing statement (not talking about the other realism comment) about aramusha just speaks miles to why this was created. You're struggling to deal with a new character. And you are stretching things to make your view more than fluff because of your own personal failings at the game. The game is still largely reaction based. All the devs are doing is making defensive play less rewarding (which indirectly makes attacking less punishing) in an attempt to allow fluid gameplay for both styles of play. The fact that you're struggling now only really proves that the games base mechanics at launch propped up your lack of capability to fight well and now that you actually have to do more to get more you are upset. And you choose to take it out on the game rather than seeking to improve yourself.

Well, ****, I guess For Honor isn't for me, then. If there were ever an argument to convince me to uninstall the game yours would be it. I don't suppose it matters that I play on console, does it?

bob333e
12-13-2017, 11:12 PM
Well, ****, I guess For Honor isn't for me, then. If there were ever an argument to convince me to uninstall the game yours would be it. I don't suppose it matters that I play on console, does it?

If you're on PS4, I'd humbly ask to meet up and cross swords before you walk away from the game. Maybe then, I can show you a different flavor concerning combat in For Honor, away from all the cheesing, ledging, GB fishing, UB spam, zone spam, and most of all, light attack spam. Which are essentially what made you disgusted at the game, as much as the connectivity issues; and I completely relate.

Archo-Vax
12-13-2017, 11:16 PM
If you're on PS4, I'd humbly ask to meet up and cross swords before you walk away from the game. Maybe then, I can show you a different flavor concerning combat in For Honor, away from all the cheesing, ledging, GB fishing, UB spam, zone spam, and most of all, light attack spam. Which are essentially what made you disgusted at the game, as much as the connectivity issues; and I completely relate.

I'm on Xbox One. And, I'm not leaving. I'll stick around, fill out Orders against A.I, keep speculating on a Lore basis. But my days of competitive Dueling are clearly over.

bob333e
12-13-2017, 11:22 PM
I'm on Xbox One. And, I'm not leaving. I'll stick around, fill out Orders against A.I, keep speculating on a Lore basis. But my days of competitive Dueling are clearly over.

I wouldn't ever take an online-based fighting game competitively when

- There are tremendous technical issues
- Connectivity has been a core problem since launch
- Several of the heroes have balance issues
- Ranked matchmaking barely works as intended
- You're not really properly rewarded for your efforts per-match

And dang, was hoping we could meet. You're from the few users on here who I actually like. No homo.

Archo-Vax
12-13-2017, 11:24 PM
I wouldn't ever take an online-based fighting game competitively when

- There are tremendous technical issues
- Connectivity has been a core problem since launch
- Several of the heroes have balance issues
- Ranked matchmaking barely works as intended
- You're not really properly rewarded for your efforts per-match

And dang, was hoping we could meet. You're from the few users on here who I actually like. No homo.

I don't know what you expect would happen if we did.

bob333e
12-13-2017, 11:29 PM
I don't know what you expect would happen if we did.

Good, long duels. Probably in Custom Match, with damage set on low. Absence of salt and cheesiness. Actual training when either of us needs it. And well, as a side, just me attempting to make pals with more people in-game. People who actually care about the game, that is.

Archo-Vax
12-13-2017, 11:50 PM
Good, long duels. Probably in Custom Match, with damage set on low. Absence of salt and cheesiness. Actual training when either of us needs it. And well, as a side, just me attempting to make pals with more people in-game. People who actually care about the game, that is.

That would have been nice.

Knight_Raime
12-14-2017, 12:41 PM
Well, ****, I guess For Honor isn't for me, then. If there were ever an argument to convince me to uninstall the game yours would be it. I don't suppose it matters that I play on console, does it?

i'm on xbox one. I primarily play on a sort of dated lcd tv but occasionally I do play on a decent monitor.
My goal of the post wasn't to convince you to quit.
I'd never want someone who truly loves the game and wants to enjoy it to leave.
For honor is a wonderful game that deserves all the support it can get.

Alustar.
12-14-2017, 03:31 PM
This thread is the embodiment of misinformation and ignorance.
Right because this post had incredible amounts of intrinsic value. Silly noobs, if you aren't going to be productive why bother posting?

Archo-Vax
12-14-2017, 06:03 PM
i'm on xbox one. I primarily play on a sort of dated lcd tv but occasionally I do play on a decent monitor.
My goal of the post wasn't to convince you to quit.
I'd never want someone who truly loves the game and wants to enjoy it to leave.
For honor is a wonderful game that deserves all the support it can get.

Maybe when I can get by with more than Shugoki's Hyper-Armor.

High-Horse
12-14-2017, 06:09 PM
Maybe when I can get by with more than Shugoki's Hyper-Armor.

I believe in you. (this game needs more shugs out there).

Arekonator
12-14-2017, 06:57 PM
From what i see, the issue is in disparity between aggressive andīdefensive approach across various characters. I believe both ways should be viable.
The problem begins in implementation on different characters that takes both into extreme.
On one hand, you have characters that get "easy" way in, relatively low risk - high reward moves, which encourages spammy or "cheesy" way to play. Then you have characters that lack such a tools and therefore play almost purely reactive. Then depending on a matchup, if they lack a move to properly punish an enemy, they will get eventually spammed or cheesed to death because the move is too safe and all they can do is avoid damage. If they CAN properly punish, then it becomes undesirable for opponent to attack, further enforcing turtle gameplay. Its sort of going in circles.
Conqueror is prime example of this, because one way or another, his matchups are exactly this ridiculously one-sided.
How to solve this though, i have no idea.

Knight_Raime
12-14-2017, 09:40 PM
Maybe when I can get by with more than Shugoki's Hyper-Armor.

So appearently xbox.com is garbage now and I can't find a way to search for your tag and add you on my computer.
which means it'll have to wait till I can get on xbox myself. Unless you're already on in which you can add my tag.
It's the same as my forum name but instead of an underscore it's just a space inbetween the 2 words.