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View Full Version : The Direction that For Honor is going in is not favorable.



Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 05:40 AM
I don't know exactly what the "defensive meta" is. If it's real, then I haven't really experienced it to any degree. It's never really been a problem for me. In any case, I don't know what the issue with the defensive meta is, but I sure as Hell prefer it to whatever the Hell the Shaman and Aramusha are. If the developers look at those two and think "that's what this game should be", then I'm afraid I might have to drop the game.

There's... just no enjoyment to be found in fighting either of them. Or playing as them. The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss. Not insurmountable, but they demand that you keep your concentration levels at 100% for 100% of the time, and if you screw up once, it can be the end for you. That's not a bad thing, but it's not what I bought For Honor for- it's not what this game sold me on.

None of the other heroes are the same way, and the Season 4 heroes just DO NOT FIT in For Honor. They feel like they came from a completely different game.

Herbstlicht
12-07-2017, 07:46 AM
I think you are wrong.
Shaman might still have numbers too much in her favor. At least on console she can pretty much guarantee getting a bleed and if the player is always a little bit knowledgeable, there are sooo many recovery frames for so many opponents where you can very safely jump at them. And deal hella lot of damage AND get your stamina back. But especially the shaman having this many options is and being swift is nice.

Take the Highlander as the opposite. He has some options but is slow as ****. He can't spam offensive lights due to stamina. So in the end, he is bottom tier. I take the two new ones over him any time of the day. Though I really like Highlander personally, he simply is too weak to be competetive. Quite the opposite with the two new ones.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 08:42 AM
I think you are wrong.
Shaman might still have numbers too much in her favor. At least on console she can pretty much guarantee getting a bleed and if the player is always a little bit knowledgeable, there are sooo many recovery frames for so many opponents where you can very safely jump at them. And deal hella lot of damage AND get your stamina back. But especially the shaman having this many options is and being swift is nice.

Take the Highlander as the opposite. He has some options but is slow as ****. He can't spam offensive lights due to stamina. So in the end, he is bottom tier. I take the two new ones over him any time of the day. Though I really like Highlander personally, he simply is too weak to be competetive. Quite the opposite with the two new ones.

If Ubisoft are going to continue in the way of the Shaman and Aramusha, and continue to stray further away from the Heroes of Seasons 1-3, then For Honor is going to become a very unenjoyable game, for me.

Charmzzz
12-07-2017, 09:35 AM
If Ubisoft are going to continue in the way of the Shaman and Aramusha, and continue to stray further away from the Heroes of Seasons 1-3, then For Honor is going to become a very unenjoyable game, for me.

Currently in the rework pipe are: Conq, Berserker, Kensei. Others will follow. I expect that the movesets of the reworked Characters are on par with the DLC Characters and I am fine with that. Sorry that it is not your taste.

Tyrfing_.
12-07-2017, 09:49 AM
I also have to disagree here.
Was facing a Shugoki yesterday with my main Kensei. Sure he was a good player and I could not find any way to open him up. Not Sure if I could even damage him considerably. So he kicked my a** badly, and it was no fun at all.
I have far less problems to fight Shamans with Kensei.
Think its all down to the match-up.

Finally it is also more fun to play as Shaman.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 10:13 AM
Well, it's kind of not. I didn't realize that getting rid of the defensive meta entailed turning the game into a spam-fest and making skill at blocking inconsequential.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 10:16 AM
I also have to disagree here.
Was facing a Shugoki yesterday with my main Kensei. Sure he was a good player and I could not find any way to open him up. Not Sure if I could even damage him considerably. So he kicked my a** badly, and it was no fun at all.
I have far less problems to fight Shamans with Kensei.
Think its all down to the match-up.

Finally it is also more fun to play as Shaman.

The Shugoki beat you because he's good at blocking. Because he's skilled.
You beat that Shaman because the person playing her was slacking.

It is not fun to play as Shaman. Not for me. Reducing everyone's blocking skills to a speed bump and being able to completely by-pass any measure of skill that your opponent has is utterly moronic.

Charmzzz
12-07-2017, 10:26 AM
The Shugoki beat you because he's good at blocking. Because he's skilled.
You beat that Shaman because the person playing her was slacking.

It is not fun to play as Shaman. Not for me. Reducing everyone's blocking skills to a speed bump and being able to completely by-pass any measure of skill that your opponent has is utterly moronic.

Why is simple blocking "skill" in your opinion? Why is feinting and using mixups "spam" and not "skill" in your opinion? Sorry, but this comment sounds like you are a terribad player and you want to stay in a casual and simple scheme. I prefer feint-heavy, soft-feinting, mixup intensive fights over staring contests where nobody attacks because it could be parried into a heavy punish. Because that is what it gets right now when you reach a certain skill-level.

ChampionRuby50g
12-07-2017, 10:32 AM
The Shugoki beat you because he's good at blocking. Because he's skilled.
You beat that Shaman because the person playing her was slacking.

It is not fun to play as Shaman. Not for me. Reducing everyone's blocking skills to a speed bump and being able to completely by-pass any measure of skill that your opponent has is utterly moronic.

It's the opposite actually. Blocking is incredibly easy to do, and doesn't take that much skill. It's the very first thing you learn in the game after all. It's also far easier at the moment to just sit and wait for your opponent to attack and react to that for free and easy damage, which is the turtle meta. On Consoles it wasn't as large, but nonetheless annoying when you came across someone. One could argue it's more skillfull to be able to react to and counter all the soft feints and spam. Spam itself was never hard to react to because you could easily predict what move is coming and know how to counter it.

Ulrichvonbek111
12-07-2017, 11:00 AM
I don't know exactly what the "defensive meta" is. If it's real, then I haven't really experienced it to any degree. It's never really been a problem for me. In any case, I don't know what the issue with the defensive meta is, but I sure as Hell prefer it to whatever the Hell the Shaman and Aramusha are. If the developers look at those two and think "that's what this game should be", then I'm afraid I might have to drop the game.

There's... just no enjoyment to be found in fighting either of them. Or playing as them. The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss. Not insurmountable, but they demand that you keep your concentration levels at 100% for 100% of the time, and if you screw up once, it can be the end for you. That's not a bad thing, but it's not what I bought For Honor for- it's not what this game sold me on.

None of the other heroes are the same way, and the Season 4 heroes just DO NOT FIT in For Honor. They feel like they came from a completely different game.

The Centurion has been the worst addition to this game.
It took almost two whole seasons to fix him from being the most OP hero..
How many do you see now the nerf came into play ?
Very little thankfully.
Every season the new heroes we prepaid for go from worse to worse.
I'm glad that you are feeling disgruntled,,boo hoo I'm gonna put the game down boo hoo.
Nobody deserves it better believe me.
It's a change that the Vikings get their first OP hero.
The first two seasons brought us two powerful monstrous killers.
One of which came from season 1 and season 2,,both of whom were Romans supposed knights...one being greatly more OP than the other.
When the Spamturionic mountain was released I found his relevance to the game nil,,just the same as when Sadiator reared its ugly head..
Now I mentioned this when I gave you my opinion on your "Lore"
to which yourself and your petty snifflers jumped on my opinion and tried to slaughter me,,your crying to Ubi/whover was heard from space..I still hold the same contempt for you as you for me.

The Aramusha and Shaman are rightfully both fitting to this game.They both ooze charisma when mastered and can be beaten at any given time.
The Spamturionic gimp as I said took almost two whole seasons to fix,,daily there were requests,,pleas and the like to fix him for he was putting many people off playing.
During this time your "Lore" appeared and when I broached it with my concerns over the knights getting all the most effective let's say grenades (Lawbringer 5+) and how I detested the abuse of such an OP Spamturion you took it upon yourself to try and be the witch hunter general trying to cast aspersions on my intelligence. ... Wow......again....... Wow

This now is why I love to see you spit out the dummy.
Boo hoo Shaman hurt me
Boo hoo Aramusha not for real.

Get a grip,,use your gang of snifflers to stifle them or just go on bended knee (remember the neck brace for the bloated ego) to Ubi/whoever and "Lore" them to death.

Playing_Mantis
12-07-2017, 11:10 AM
"The Direction that For Honor is going in is not favorable.

I don't know exactly what the "defensive meta" is. If it's real, then I haven't really experienced it to any degree. It's never really been a problem for me. In any case, I don't know what the issue with the defensive meta is, but I sure as Hell prefer it to whatever the Hell the Shaman and Aramusha are. If the developers look at those two and think "that's what this game should be", then I'm afraid I might have to drop the game.

There's... just no enjoyment to be found in fighting either of them. Or playing as them. The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss. Not insurmountable, but they demand that you keep your concentration levels at 100% for 100% of the time, and if you screw up once, it can be the end for you. That's not a bad thing, but it's not what I bought For Honor for- it's not what this game sold me on.

None of the other heroes are the same way, and the Season 4 heroes just DO NOT FIT in For Honor. They feel like they came from a completely different game."


To this i totally disagree. The game was dying with the defensive turtle meta. was so boring. the cent can punish u with one mistake, not the shaman... I do agree on the aramusha on the ridiculous light spams but only as an assassin class. we need aggressive characters and defensive ones so i like the way the game is going. fighting vs a turtle warlord or law bringer is like pulling hair. each character should have some way to break turtles if were going the route of defensive slow meta. overall i love the new heroes - cent. hate him. :D

PDXGorechild
12-07-2017, 11:42 AM
The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss..

Hahaha! Spot on there.

OP, the defensive meta is no longer such a huge thing since they made some alterations. In 4v4 game modes the game seems to be going more on the offensive which is good, that's what most of the community have been calling for. A player who plays hyper defensively in 4v4 will suffer with all the new DLC characters running around due to a myriad of melee attacks, unblockables and stuns etc. The defensive meta is only prevalent in duels, brawls and the tournament mode where it's all 1v1 I think. The best strategy there is still to sit and wait for a parry or guard break to guarantee safe damage. Staring competitions are still a thing. If you're not into high level competitive 1v1 I wouldn't worry about it.

Some of the new DLC characters, especially the last two, are obviously overpowered. Most companies do this as a marketing ploy I suspect, people pay good money to be the crazy overpowered class for a week before everyone else can use them. It makes sense financially. They have also been using them to counteract the defensive meta by making them aggressive in play style and giving them abilities to open up turtles. But fear not, Ubisoft do listen and implement changes. Albeit slowly. Once the new classes have been toned down a bit and some of the old classes get a rework, parry changes get implemented etc, the game should be in a pretty good place.

bob333e
12-07-2017, 01:15 PM
I don't know exactly what the "defensive meta" is. If it's real, then I haven't really experienced it to any degree. It's never really been a problem for me. In any case, I don't know what the issue with the defensive meta is, but I sure as Hell prefer it to whatever the Hell the Shaman and Aramusha are. If the developers look at those two and think "that's what this game should be", then I'm afraid I might have to drop the game.

There's... just no enjoyment to be found in fighting either of them. Or playing as them. The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss. Not insurmountable, but they demand that you keep your concentration levels at 100% for 100% of the time, and if you screw up once, it can be the end for you. That's not a bad thing, but it's not what I bought For Honor for- it's not what this game sold me on.

None of the other heroes are the same way, and the Season 4 heroes just DO NOT FIT in For Honor. They feel like they came from a completely different game.

Your points are valid and understandable. I, as many others, have felt the same way upon S4 release. The new heroes just did not fit in with the rest of the roster; they shut down every other hero.

That is, until I practiced. And practiced and practiced and practiced.... until Aramusha became a joke, and Shaman became way easier to deal with today. Aramusha's only issue is his Rocksteady feat in 4v4s, and Shaman has had wrong damage numbers on several of her attacks, as well as broken tracking on her Predator's Mercy, and broken recovery on Wildcat's Rage. That's pretty much what is broken in these two heroes. Moveset-wise, they're very counterable. And they become very readable once you get to know them.

Get into Practice Mode and try them out if you do not own DLC. And simulate a real PvP scenario in Custom Match with level 3 bots, keep whacking at them until they're no longer a threat. Human players will never match the ferocity of a level 3 bot, particularly Shaman. By the time a Shaman bot becomes fair play, human players will be a joke. In duels and brawls at least. In 4v4s of course you'll still be at a disadvantage.

I get not everyone is a hardcore grinder in For Honor, but for the sake of accepting the new changes and living with the way For Honor is moving forward, best we can do to cope with it is learn how to counter the new heroes, every time new heroes are introduced.

I can help if you're on console.

hecate160992
12-07-2017, 04:39 PM
Your points are valid and understandable. I, as many others, have felt the same way upon S4 release. The new heroes just did not fit in with the rest of the roster; they shut down every other hero.

That is, until I practiced. And practiced and practiced and practiced.... until Aramusha became a joke, and Shaman became way easier to deal with today. Aramusha's only issue is his Rocksteady feat in 4v4s, and Shaman has had wrong damage numbers on several of her attacks, as well as broken tracking on her Predator's Mercy, and broken recovery on Wildcat's Rage. That's pretty much what is broken in these two heroes. Moveset-wise, they're very counterable. And they become very readable once you get to know them.

Get into Practice Mode and try them out if you do not own DLC. And simulate a real PvP scenario in Custom Match with level 3 bots, keep whacking at them until they're no longer a threat. Human players will never match the ferocity of a level 3 bot, particularly Shaman. By the time a Shaman bot becomes fair play, human players will be a joke. In duels and brawls at least. In 4v4s of course you'll still be at a disadvantage.

I get not everyone is a hardcore grinder in For Honor, but for the sake of accepting the new changes and living with the way For Honor is moving forward, best we can do to cope with it is learn how to counter the new heroes, every time new heroes are introduced.

I can help if you're on console.

I think you're missing the point. I've mad topics on this in the past. The OPs issue isn't that the s4 heroes are stronger and have more options than the original roster. The issue is that the direction the game is suddenly going is a huge detour from the original vision of the game and why many people (myself included) bought into it to begin with.

If the Kensei rework means giving him an easily spammable unblockable or cancels in =to a 400ms top light. I don't want that. and neither do alot of people. What the OP{ is referring to as "skill" is how this game used to be tactical and strategic, making the correct reads and outplaying your opponent. Now it's become about crazy combos and twitch reflexes. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm waiting for the day when they add tekken style air juggles into the game too. Because that's the direction the game seems to be heading.

I'm not going to argue about which playstyle is more skillfull. But the game is NOT the same game it used to be. For me (and presumably OP), in a much less than favourable way.

Dude_of_Valor
12-07-2017, 05:05 PM
I think you're missing the point. I've mad topics on this in the past. The OPs issue isn't that the s4 heroes are stronger and have more options than the original roster. The issue is that the direction the game is suddenly going is a huge detour from the original vision of the game and why many people (myself included) bought into it to begin with.

If the Kensei rework means giving him an easily spammable unblockable or cancels in =to a 400ms top light. I don't want that. and neither do alot of people. What the OP{ is referring to as "skill" is how this game used to be tactical and strategic, making the correct reads and outplaying your opponent. Now it's become about crazy combos and twitch reflexes. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm waiting for the day when they add tekken style air juggles into the game too. Because that's the direction the game seems to be heading.

I'm not going to argue about which playstyle is more skillfull. But the game is NOT the same game it used to be. For me (and presumably OP), in a much less than favourable way.

This 100%. If the game continues with the trend that is being set, then to everyone that enjoys it good luck to them.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 05:37 PM
The Centurion has been the worst addition to this game.
It took almost two whole seasons to fix him from being the most OP hero..
How many do you see now the nerf came into play ?
Very little thankfully.
Every season the new heroes we prepaid for go from worse to worse.
I'm glad that you are feeling disgruntled,,boo hoo I'm gonna put the game down boo hoo.
Nobody deserves it better believe me.
It's a change that the Vikings get their first OP hero.
The first two seasons brought us two powerful monstrous killers.
One of which came from season 1 and season 2,,both of whom were Romans supposed knights...one being greatly more OP than the other.
When the Spamturionic mountain was released I found his relevance to the game nil,,just the same as when Sadiator reared its ugly head..
Now I mentioned this when I gave you my opinion on your "Lore"
to which yourself and your petty snifflers jumped on my opinion and tried to slaughter me,,your crying to Ubi/whover was heard from space..I still hold the same contempt for you as you for me.

The Aramusha and Shaman are rightfully both fitting to this game.They both ooze charisma when mastered and can be beaten at any given time.
The Spamturionic gimp as I said took almost two whole seasons to fix,,daily there were requests,,pleas and the like to fix him for he was putting many people off playing.
During this time your "Lore" appeared and when I broached it with my concerns over the knights getting all the most effective let's say grenades (Lawbringer 5+) and how I detested the abuse of such an OP Spamturion you took it upon yourself to try and be the witch hunter general trying to cast aspersions on my intelligence. ... Wow......again....... Wow

This now is why I love to see you spit out the dummy.
Boo hoo Shaman hurt me
Boo hoo Aramusha not for real.

Get a grip,,use your gang of snifflers to stifle them or just go on bended knee (remember the neck brace for the bloated ego) to Ubi/whoever and "Lore" them to death.

You really hate me, don't you? I'm afraid that none of this is as serious as you're making it out to be, mate.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 05:39 PM
"The Direction that For Honor is going in is not favorable.

I don't know exactly what the "defensive meta" is. If it's real, then I haven't really experienced it to any degree. It's never really been a problem for me. In any case, I don't know what the issue with the defensive meta is, but I sure as Hell prefer it to whatever the Hell the Shaman and Aramusha are. If the developers look at those two and think "that's what this game should be", then I'm afraid I might have to drop the game.

There's... just no enjoyment to be found in fighting either of them. Or playing as them. The Aramusha is like a mini-boss in Dark Souls, and the Shaman is like a full-on boss. Not insurmountable, but they demand that you keep your concentration levels at 100% for 100% of the time, and if you screw up once, it can be the end for you. That's not a bad thing, but it's not what I bought For Honor for- it's not what this game sold me on.

None of the other heroes are the same way, and the Season 4 heroes just DO NOT FIT in For Honor. They feel like they came from a completely different game."


To this i totally disagree. The game was dying with the defensive turtle meta. was so boring. the cent can punish u with one mistake, not the shaman... I do agree on the aramusha on the ridiculous light spams but only as an assassin class. we need aggressive characters and defensive ones so i like the way the game is going. fighting vs a turtle warlord or law bringer is like pulling hair. each character should have some way to break turtles if were going the route of defensive slow meta. overall i love the new heroes - cent. hate him. :D

The game obviously wasn't dying, since it still had millions of players.

Archo-Vax
12-07-2017, 05:42 PM
Why is simple blocking "skill" in your opinion? Why is feinting and using mixups "spam" and not "skill" in your opinion? Sorry, but this comment sounds like you are a terribad player and you want to stay in a casual and simple scheme. I prefer feint-heavy, soft-feinting, mixup intensive fights over staring contests where nobody attacks because it could be parried into a heavy punish. Because that is what it gets right now when you reach a certain skill-level.

"Mixups" is not spam. Soft-Feints are spam. The Aramusha light chains are spam.

AlexHuaTian
12-07-2017, 05:50 PM
Its weird how the design philosophy has become that the strongest characters have the weakest weapons. Because the weakest weapons have the best attack speed and recovery. If this philosophy keeps up. A naked monk would be S tier. As he would be the fastest class in the game. And his naked fists and naked body would be too fast to intercept and block.

AlexHuaTian
12-07-2017, 05:53 PM
Of course. I still hate the defensive meta.

bob333e
12-07-2017, 05:55 PM
I think you're missing the point. I've mad topics on this in the past. The OPs issue isn't that the s4 heroes are stronger and have more options than the original roster. The issue is that the direction the game is suddenly going is a huge detour from the original vision of the game and why many people (myself included) bought into it to begin with.

If the Kensei rework means giving him an easily spammable unblockable or cancels in =to a 400ms top light. I don't want that. and neither do alot of people. What the OP{ is referring to as "skill" is how this game used to be tactical and strategic, making the correct reads and outplaying your opponent. Now it's become about crazy combos and twitch reflexes. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm waiting for the day when they add tekken style air juggles into the game too. Because that's the direction the game seems to be heading.

I'm not going to argue about which playstyle is more skillfull. But the game is NOT the same game it used to be. For me (and presumably OP), in a much less than favourable way.

I thought he was addressing the "changes made to counter the defensive meta" which then led to adding overly aggressive characters which are Aramusha and Shaman, and the rest of us who didn't really particularly care about the defensive meta have to cope with it and learn to counter the new heroes, like me and him.

Still, you are right. For Honor is sliding towards spammable characters, a crapfest of combos and unblockables, even faster and faster attacks that demand even faster and faster reflexes. This is one reason why I still did not invest any extra money into the game; I have no DLC, I have no Season Pass, I never bought Steel Packs, and still didn't get the 1-month Champion Status (which was planned around mid-November but then changed my mind, and cannot really buy it with my daily Steel as I'm buying outfits with them). I'm patiently waiting what it will turn out to be by mid-2018 or so. By season 5, things will be made more clear. Whether the game sets its rightful pace, whether S5 characters will rebalance the entire roster, whether dedicated servers will be here and working, whether most of the bugs have been taken care of.

Late 2018 will make or break this game for me. And here I am, on the forums, voicing my concerns and providing suggestions alike, as to how to improve this game in overall. My only ultimate hope is that Ubisoft won't turn a deaf ear to reason.

Note that it's as much as a marketing gimmick as the director's decision to move the game the way he sees fit. They add out-of-place characters to encourage new players to buy the Season Pass and play in easy mode. It has been going on since S2.

Tundra 793
12-07-2017, 06:23 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Archo's assessment.

With the exception of the Highlander, all the post-launch heroes have been Assassins, or Assassin type Hybrids, with a strong and deliberate focus on fast attacks and a myriad of unblockables.
All this has succeeded in doing, is treat the symptoms of the Defensive meta, but the core problems still remain, as is clear by how poorly the Highlander performs compared to the other new heroes.
I'm genuinely concerned for the reworks being done to older heroes, because adding faster attacks and/or spammable unblockables still doesn't fix the underlying problems, and it fundamentally changes the way For Honor is played.

It's one of many, many things that make me seriously question the competency and reasoning of the development team, that they set out to release 6 heroes, 5 of which are turbo charged Assassin's, with objectively better moves than even the base game Assassins.

Why, and how was it ever decided to release so many Assassin type characters, and zero heavies to balance the gameplay out? If For Honor gets a Year 2, are we then in for 6 new Heavy type characters, giving us a whole year of Turtle gameplay?

David_gorda
12-07-2017, 06:44 PM
Its a shame, this Game had the potential to be great. It was really fun when i Start playing it, but the disconnects thats still havent been fixed after almost 2 years!!!!

Plus the imbalanced season classes. Now they give almost all classes really fast moves and unblockables. Ranked is a Joke aswell, takes way to long to get a Game started and matchmaking not working either.

DoctorMcBatman
12-07-2017, 06:52 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Archo's assessment.

With the exception of the Highlander, all the post-launch heroes have been Assassins, or Assassin type Hybrids, with a strong and deliberate focus on fast attacks and a myriad of unblockables.
All this has succeeded in doing, is treat the symptoms of the Defensive meta, but the core problems still remain, as is clear by how poorly the Highlander performs compared to the other new heroes.
I'm genuinely concerned for the reworks being done to older heroes, because adding faster attacks and/or spammable unblockables still doesn't fix the underlying problems, and it fundamentally changes the way For Honor is played.

It's one of many, many things that make me seriously question the competency and reasoning of the development team, that they set out to release 6 heroes, 5 of which are turbo charged Assassin's, with objectively better moves than even the base game Assassins.

Why, and how was it ever decided to release so many Assassin type characters, and zero heavies to balance the gameplay out? If For Honor gets a Year 2, are we then in for 6 new Heavy type characters, giving us a whole year of Turtle gameplay?

Great summary.

I'm not sure what the status of the defense meta changes are. I thought we were supposed to get a big patch with fairly significant changes to the game's mechanics - but I've heard nothing about this since the discussion started over the summer. Some of the patches over the past few months have included helpful changes, but the core gameplay is fairly unchanged from release.

I don't hate the devs; I'm very glad this game exists, but there are quite a few head-turning decisions and faults within the FH development process (and the pattern has continued well-past release).

Okita_Soji..
12-07-2017, 06:52 PM
I only play 2 heroes, Kensei and orochi as I only got the game to play as samurai. When I saw the trailer I was thrilled. Finally a good samurai game, I loved the way of the samurai games.

I've been playing since season 2 started and my only real issue with the game, besides the connection issues, is the speed of play now. I only play 4v4 cause I like the war aspect with the random 1v1's that are happen in those modes.

I don't see how the game can ever be balanced with way they make the new heroes attack speeds. How can all assassins not have the fastest attack speeds on lights and heavies. Cent has 600 heavy, Shinobi lights are faster than the orichi light combo, Aramusha attacks are faster than all assassins... If the reworked heroes all just get faster attacks it will ruin the game for me. I liked the slower trying to out think your opponent fighting. But in 4v4 it was still faster than 1v1's cause the threat of 2v1 or 3v1's is always there.

Vakris_One
12-07-2017, 11:33 PM
I disagree. I find the game a lot more enjoyable now than when the Season 2 heroes were released. When the Centurion pretty much strengthened the defensive meta by being a character that has the best punish in the game from being passive (just one parry and you were pretty much as good as dead). The new heroes from Season 3 and 4 by comparison have all been enjoyable to fight against in my experience because they actually attack and thus open themselves up for you to try and counter attack them instead of turtling up and then gg if you're playing a hero with nothing to open them with. They have also been enjoyable to play as, from the ones I've played, i.e. Highlander, Shaman and Aramusha, because they have interesting options.

I can understand the concerns expressed and I definitely do not want the game to go too far in the other direction and become a spam fest. However nothing I see so far leads me to believe that it will become like that. Both the Musha and the Shaman are counter-able once you get used to them just like the Shinobi, Gladiator, Highlander and even the pre-nerf Centurion were. It just takes time to adapt to them. That's been my experience on any case.

Alustar.
12-07-2017, 11:48 PM
Had anyone though that these be change need to happen because as you play and get better your ability to deal with faster attacks increases.
Case and pint, the forums are littered for joints and peacekeeper light spam, now the aramusha comes in and suddenly the player base doesn't an to have much of an issue.
Also dealing with the defensive meta was a problem that led to offensive heroes benefiting more from playing more defensively than offensive. That's not to say that turtles don't have a place, but that not every class should be a turtle.
This is a fighting game, you are supposed to fight. Not sit and wait for free damage because your opponent flinched first.

Tundra 793
12-08-2017, 12:11 AM
Had anyone though that these be change need to happen because as you play and get better your ability to deal with faster attacks increases.

I have to disagree hard with this point. My reflexes won't improve no matter how much I practice, and many of the newer heroes are built around increasingly rapid attacks.
This is all coming from a console perspective, so my opinions are all based on having 30 FPS to work with.

Shinobi, Shaman and Aramusha are some of the classes that trouble me most, despite having ample practice against them, and a reasonable understanding of the core game mechanics.
On my best days, I can deal with any class reasonable well. On bad days, any one of them could Light spam me to death. I simply do not have the reflexes necessary to consistently block, much less parry light attacks from these classes, along with a few of the base heroes, e.g. Valkyrie.

My experience with the game helps only in that I know when to anticipate a Light attack, but with these newer heroes, that's all the time, because they're built around being fast. When I do rarely manage to deflect, or parry a Light attack, it has nothing to do with me actually seeing the attack, and deploying a counter.

It has to do with me accidentally dodging in the direction of the attack.


Case and pint, the forums are littered for joints and peacekeeper light spam, now the aramusha comes in and suddenly the player base doesn't an to have much of an issue.

I don't know about that, I've personally seen a pretty consistent divide on the Aramusha's spam attacks. Some claim it's easily countered, others cannot deal with it. I'm in the latter category.
To me it just seems to work like a much better version of the Berserker's infinite chain, largely due to the speed.


Also dealing with the defensive meta was a problem that led to offensive heroes benefiting more from playing more defensively than offensive. That's not to say that turtles don't have a place, but that not every class should be a turtle.

Like I said before; These new heroes, and the way they're designed is only treating the symptoms of the defensive meta, not the underlying issue.
This I believe, has put us in the situation where we now need to either bring the old hero roster up to par with the new ones, or dumb down the new ones to the originals level.

The problem with this, is that 5 out of 6 of the new heroes are built around either very fast attacks, or an unblockable move that's somewhat spammable. Sometimes both. So the reworks being done to Kensei, Berserker and Conqueror, I think?, if they're done in the same style as the newer heroes, means more unblockables to spam, or faster attacks. This is where our problem lies, as since launch, we haven't gotten a single new Heavy or Vanguard class. Just Hybrids and Assassin's. Not counting the Highlander as a Heavy since the only even remotely "Heavy" thing about him, is his sword.
And compared to the original heroes, they have tools built to combat the defensive meta, but the developers never truly fixed that meta, they just kept putting band aids on it.


This is a fighting game, you are supposed to fight. Not sit and wait for free damage because your opponent flinched first.

A fair point, and I agree with the sentiment. But what we have in game now, is just too much of an extreme of this philosophy.

Archo-Vax
12-08-2017, 12:23 AM
The new heroes from Season 3 and 4 by comparison have all been enjoyable to fight against in my experience because they actually attack and thus open themselves up for you to try and counter attack them instead of turtling up and then gg if you're playing a hero with nothing to open them with.

"Open themselves up to you"?! No, they don't! That's like saying that a chainsaw being swung at you opens up the person with the chainsaw to getting punched in the nose. That's a completely asinine statement! Yeah, it might happen, and you might be able to avoid getting gutted like a fish, but it's not bloody likely!!!

hecate160992
12-08-2017, 12:46 AM
I disagree. I find the game a lot more enjoyable now than when the Season 2 heroes were released. When the Centurion pretty much strengthened the defensive meta by being a character that has the best punish in the game from being passive (just one parry and you were pretty much as good as dead). The new heroes from Season 3 and 4 by comparison have all been enjoyable to fight against in my experience because they actually attack and thus open themselves up for you to try and counter attack them instead of turtling up and then gg if you're playing a hero with nothing to open them with. They have also been enjoyable to play as, from the ones I've played, i.e. Highlander, Shaman and Aramusha, because they have interesting options.

I can understand the concerns expressed and I definitely do not want the game to go too far in the other direction and become a spam fest. However nothing I see so far leads me to believe that it will become like that. Both the Musha and the Shaman are counter-able once you get used to them just like the Shinobi, Gladiator, Highlander and even the pre-nerf Centurion were. It just takes time to adapt to them. That's been my experience on any case.

I have chronic arthritis and my reflexes will also never be able to improve to the point to deal with 400ms attacks in a game with delays inherent to netcode and guardswitching. When it was only things like PK zone I could manage since it wasn't a pk every single match and they are predictable enough to counter. Versus Aramusha or Shaman I have to stop playing after only a couple of rounds as it becomes too painful to be constantly reacting to..

David_gorda
12-08-2017, 12:57 AM
I have chronic arthritis and my reflexes will also never be able to improve to the point to deal with 400ms attacks in a game with delays inherent to netcode and guardswitching. When it was only things like PK zone I could manage since it wasn't a pk every single match and they are predictable enough to counter. Versus Aramusha or Shaman I have to stop playing after only a couple of rounds as it becomes too painful to be constantly reacting to..
Vakris plays on PC, yeah i Will never be able react to 400ms attacks on Playstation either. I do parry lights sometimes but thats against predictle opponents that use a Patterns.
I have found ways with the deal with lightspam and its basicly to aggressive myself and not let them spam me to death.

Vakris_One
12-08-2017, 01:20 AM
"Open themselves up to you"?! No, they don't! That's like saying that a chainsaw being swung at you opens up the person with the chainsaw to getting punched in the nose. That's a completely asinine statement! Yeah, it might happen, and you might be able to avoid getting gutted like a fish, but it's not bloody likely!!!
It's not asinine just because I can avoid being "gutted like a fish" where you and others cannot. That's my personal experience, it may not be similiar to yours so feel free to disagree but to call it stupid is just being childish. I primarily play Kensei on PC where people in my MMR range prefer to turtle up and go ultra defensive, only feeding off of parry punishes and guarranteed safe moves. Most fights usually develove into staring contests and Guardbreak spam. When players actually start throwing attacks into the mix then it becomes interesting and much more engaging. I prefer to actually engage in a fight when playing a fighting game.

When an opponent attacks he creates a pattern that I can then figure out, react to and try to anticipate and outmanouver while also trying not to be too predictable myself. If my opponent is spamming me with reckless quick attacks I've never found it an impossible task to eventually learn to block and parry them and/or otherwise punish them. It creates a sense of progression and achievement for me in fact when I eventually learn to overcome the attack patterns that were my weaknesses. Aramusha and Shaman have patterns just like everybody else and it's just a matter of time and effort to figure out how to deal with them. They are nowhere near as ridiculously punishing as was making just a single mistake against a Centurion in Season 2.

So there you have it. I do not have a problem with Season 4 and I'm looking forward to the first batch of character reworks to see what the devs do with them.

Archo-Vax
12-08-2017, 01:29 AM
The Shaman and Aramusha don't create any followable patterns. They can cancel anything and everything into soft-feints. And other various forms of "mixup". The Shaman, the worst offender, literally gets off free damage every 2 seconds. That's not an exaggeration.

Gunner11Mendez
12-08-2017, 07:39 PM
Mate, you literally sound like everyone that faced Shinobi and Cent when they first released them. Me thinks you need to practice the game more. Shaman's pounce at least is OP, but she's not that hard once u learn her feint game. And Aramusha is a joke...I play on console and can block/parry him consistently. Practice.

Archo-Vax
12-08-2017, 10:05 PM
Mate, you literally sound like everyone that faced Shinobi and Cent when they first released them. Me thinks you need to practice the game more. Shaman's pounce at least is OP, but she's not that hard once u learn her feint game. And Aramusha is a joke...I play on console and can block/parry him consistently. Practice.

I've BEEN practicing for a week. Don't you dare talk to me as though I'm some prissy pissant.

Tundra 793
12-08-2017, 11:11 PM
Mate, you literally sound like everyone that faced Shinobi and Cent when they first released them. Me thinks you need to practice the game more. Shaman's pounce at least is OP, but she's not that hard once u learn her feint game. And Aramusha is a joke...I play on console and can block/parry him consistently. Practice.

Just to reiterate points made earlier; We can't practice beyond physical limitations. Some may have physical afflictions that hinder them, or maybe they just don't have naturally fast reflexes.
Or they just can't afford the amount of cocaine and Red Bull needed to maintain such reflexes.

Also, I believe the idea of this thread is not just talking about Aramusha and Shaman's difficulty levels, but the impact that these types of characters have on For Honor.