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PepsiBeastin
12-05-2017, 07:53 PM
I don't know why more people don't complain about how bad Shugoki actually is. I'm far from decent at reciprocating my thoughts, but I just want to jot down some of the glaring problems he has.

1.Missed attacks open you up to guardbreak
Even missing a light attack opens you to an untechable guardbreak. This is unrelated, but fighting shaman, there's basically nothing Shugoki can do. If you try to do a heavy, she guardbreaks you before you can even feint or charge, and if you try to do a light, she does her spin heavy which completely dodges the light and hits you without being punishable.



2. Demon's Embrace has way TOO much punishablilty
Why should such a slow, reactable move have such high risk? From what I see, you lose two bars of health, and can do NOTHING for about 3-4 seconds while you just get whailed on. I've had people start a guardbreak while I was 5 feet from them in the recovery for Demon's Embrace, and they ice skate over with 100% perfect tracking.



3. A charged heavy on someone OOS on the ground opens you up to guardbreak.
This is Shugoki's strongest attack, you shouldn't be punished for using it. If I parry someone, throw them on the ground, and they regen their stamina before they get back up, (stamina doesn't affect being guardbroken though) they can guardbreak you and get a full punish off on you if a wall is nearby. Not to mention trying to use it on a standing opponent, it's basically useless.


4.Shugoki's charged heavy doesn't have hyperarmor
If your uninterruptible stance is down, you can instantly be hit out of a charged heavy by any attack. With it up, you can be hit out of it with two lights.


5. Too much damage taken while hyper armor is down
Since the majority of time you're hyper armor is down while you take damage, (assuming the extra damage taken with it down is 20, which I'm pretty sure it is) shugoki has basically only the health of Orochi. (120)


6. Shugoki can be guardbroken like 70% into his charged heavy
Why would you ever actually start this attack on a standing opponent? Even if they whiff an attack, most of the cast recovers in time to either guardbreak you out of the heavy, or just parry it. I don't think there's a single attack in this game that's easier to parry than this.

7. Shugoki loses hyper armor when counter guardbreaking
I'm not saying that shugoki's uninterruptible stance should ALWAYS be on, but it's kind of bull**** that his gimmick is so easily beaten. I feel like it have a highly reduced recovery time if the armor is taken away in this fashion, say 2 to 3 seconds rather than the base 6 second recharge. (I think its 6 at least).


8. Shugoki has no way to open up a turtle
I feel this doesn't need explaining, as long as an opponent turtles to either parry you, guardbreak you, or in the case of shaman get free attacks, there is no way you can win.

9. Shugoki literally can't beat characters with spammable bashes, like warden, centurion, and conqueror.
You hear so much of "just dodge", yet Shugoki cannot evade these kinds of moves with dodge. On the off chance that the game lags and you ARE able to evade, you just get guardbroken because of shugoki's ridiculous dodge recovery time. You can be COMPLETELY done with the dodge and be walking, yet it still counts as recovery frames and you cant tech a guardbreak.

10. Being guardbroken out of guardbreaks
There is a small window at the start of a shugoki guardbreak that you can be grabbed out of it, if someone tried to guardbreak you say 30ms into your guardbreak animation, you get grabbed out of your guardbreak and can't counter it.


11. Lost stamina on headbutt
After headbutting, an extra tiny chunk of stamina is taken away which more often than not puts you OOS.


If I've said anything incorrect above please correct me, and if you have something that I've missed please point it out. I don't understand why kensei is getting a rework before shugoki. A good kensei that knows how to feint well is a lot more frightening than a shugoki that can parry. If you're fighting a shugoki in the open, not near a wall, you've basically already won.

Knight_Raime
12-05-2017, 10:29 PM
it's probably because a passive/defensive goki that only goes for trades has the ability to constantly knock your stamina down to basically nothing.
It's just like how Centurion is still regarded as amazing because of his parry punishes even though the rest of his kit is flawed as hell.

I'd love to see a goki rework since I really hate how he's played right now. I can't offer detailed changes as i'm no goki expert.
but in general his defense power needs to go down and he needs more offensive/aggressive options.
HA as is should not stay for him regardless. it needs to work differently. In a more active way.

PepsiBeastin
12-06-2017, 12:37 AM
it's probably because a passive/defensive goki that only goes for trades has the ability to constantly knock your stamina down to basically nothing.
It's just like how Centurion is still regarded as amazing because of his parry punishes even though the rest of his kit is flawed as hell.

I'd love to see a goki rework since I really hate how he's played right now. I can't offer detailed changes as i'm no goki expert.
but in general his defense power needs to go down and he needs more offensive/aggressive options.
HA as is should not stay for him regardless. it needs to work differently. In a more active way.

Hmm, would all of his attacks having full hyperarmor, but shugoki not having anything in neutral be better than now?

bob333e
12-06-2017, 12:56 AM
Hyperarmor alone will solve little though. As you stated, players who wait for you to attack to either parry or guardbreak or get free dodge attacks negate the real usefulness of hyperarmor on Shugoki.

I'm by no means experienced with Shugoki, however I know he's the least used hero, and the slowest hero. The first is an advantage; players in general aren't 100% familiar with his moveset. The second is obviously a disadvantage, with his only fast attack being side light.

Though I do think with Shugoki, you ought to force players into attacking, rather than wait for them to wait for you to attack. GB often, keep standing in their faces, use lights more often. Chain the unblockable with lights (if doable). If you're on low health, stand up close because then it gets near impossible for your opponent to dodge Demon's Embrace.

I do agree he needs an overhaul and more offensive options. Heck, I even think he needs deflects. Maybe even a second stance like Highlander's Celtic Curse.

Knight_Raime
12-06-2017, 01:08 AM
Hmm, would all of his attacks having full hyperarmor, but shugoki not having anything in neutral be better than now?

Unsure. it would reinforce his trading style for sure. But probably tank his neutral game a bit too much. I think rewarding HA from doing something with his kit would be a way to go.
Similar to how proccing bleed on shaman does something extra for her kit.

PepsiBeastin
12-06-2017, 02:27 AM
Unsure. it would reinforce his trading style for sure. But probably tank his neutral game a bit too much. I think rewarding HA from doing something with his kit would be a way to go.
Similar to how proccing bleed on shaman does something extra for her kit.


What if he got hyper armor based on the amount of damage he caused? Like 2 seconds for each half a bar of health dealt, with damage stacking exponentially for multiple attacks? It would make Shugoki extremely scary to fight if he starts comboing you, and i feel like if they gave him a unique hyperarmor indicator, like a slight mist/aura, it could really set him in his theme as an "oni".

David_gorda
12-06-2017, 02:39 AM
Goki is pretty bad, slow attacks so cant really attack. I like to feint Heavies or the unblockable to bait parries. Feint heavy into guardbreak. I Always try fighting close to a Wall so i can wallsplat demon embrace from suceasful parry ir guardbreak. Feint heavy and go for demon embrace is pretty good to but only with hyperarmor up.
Faster attacks or some new unblockable to open up opponents is what he needs.

red_ryanmck
12-06-2017, 08:35 PM
man i gotta say i agree with a majority of this, this is coming from the 3rd shugoki on xbox and i chat with a lot of the other goki mains and discuss these issues pretty regularly. realistically if you want to be efficient with goki you pretty much have to out play his own kit and bust out unorthodox moves and play more mind games then anything, but with all these new characters being released our main is just feeling pretty underwhelming, its hard to even classify him as a tank because as you mentioned you take extra damage while hyper armour is down, and dear lord in 4v4s can you get melted as if you had the health of a pre buff shinobi.

But his kit is really basic and i think thats why he CAN be pretty effective and if you know what chains and combos to dish out, as well as switching your play style mid fight between bullying/defensive/aggressive/ you find yourself winning 1v1s and 2v1s fairly often. though unless your playing with new players chances are you'll just get light parried and ledged immediately. not to mention in 4v4s his only Feat that truly made him shine was the rock steady feat, now with the new characters having access to the same feat it kinda defeats shugokis unique style.

Being guard broken after a knockdown charged heavy is still total garbage and I'm also surprised that hasn't been changed since you pretty much get punished for punishing...like alright Ubisoft.

though i don't agree with your demons embrace points since i think its acutely in an ok place right now as any decent goki player will learn that you shouldn't rely on that attack since it is the easiest move to dodge in the game IF you are doing 1v1s, pretty much should only use that move on wall splats and in group fights to pick up revenge players, or if your a mouse fart away from death and want to see if you can get a lucky hug.

gotta agree with the charged heavy hyper armour point id like to see that added since a majority of the characters that have a similar attack have hyper armour on it as well, and would just make sense since well he's a big boy.

also agree with being guard broken out of heavys is pretty lame, i swear i read that the defensive meta patch that we still haven't received was supposed to get rid of that, but here we are still stuck with it.

though i think losing the hyper armour after getting guard broken is a valid balance point since it wouldn't make much sense if a character guard breaks goki and he doesn't lose his hyper armour and just tanks a hit, pretty much just breaks the game at that point since guard breaking a goki would be pointless. ALTHOUGH i would like to see hyper armour recover quicker after a successful counter guard break.

YES i agree and plenty of others agree that gokis dodge is just laughable, with pretty much all the DLC characters aside from maybe highlander all these unblockable unparriable attacks that come out are virtually unavoidable and easily spamable on goki, and this still extends to warden especially. out of all the characters i face with these types of attacks conq was the one i could dodge about 75% of the time if i was in a 1v1 and in some cases 2v1s. of course this issue is even worse on consoles since our fantastic 30FPs and still pretty trash P2P and make these attacks seemingly come out instantly and out of nowhere.

I also agree that whenever i join up in a game and come up against someone that wants to sweat pounds against me they'll just 100% turtle cause they know i really can't do a whole lot to stop them with the easiest lights to parry this makes just playing casual games a nightmare.

addressing your point about all the attacks being wiffed opens you up to a guard break i agree but honestly you can use this to your own advantage, whiffing heavys and making it seem like your playing like a scrub can really throw people off, usually what ill do is wiff a heavy and spam my light attack while they try and guard break after my wiff and your light will prevent the guard break and give you a headbutt. but even knowing all this yes i still think our recovery time from wiffed attacks can be a pain against any half decent player that can whip out 400ms lights and parry.

some things that I've had my mind on and some other suggestions the goki mains of xbox have mentioned are being able to chain your lights and heavys and unblockable heavys more fluently, what I'm surprised we aren't allowed to do is do a light attack and then do a charged heavy instead of being forced to do either a headbutt or a regular heavy after a light. this also goes with doing a regular heavy attack into a charged heavy instead of being forced into a headbutt or again another regular heavy. just adding the ability to bring out that charged heavy in the middle of combos would be a great change to the character as you can get a great feint game going and would make the goki feel more smooth altogether. plus since the character has the stamina of a obese 4th grader this wouldn't be spamable.

lol remember the days when the game released and we all thought the gokis charge of the oni (running unblockable for those who don't main him) knocking people to the ground and getting one measly heavy was overpowered? Now they nerfed it so all it does i slightly nudge your opponent as you quickly run to the nearest rice kiosk to regain your stamina. this "attack" you can't get ANY hits from doing this to someone, they didn't even rebalance it so that it would AT LEAST wall splat someone they just left it after that, now this attack is pretty much strictly used for easy cheese ledges on unknowing opponents which is obviously only useful in 4v4s. ALTHOUGH in revenge mode it does still knock people down now pretty much like only 3 goki mains I've talked to acutely knew that because if your in a situation where your getting revenge chances are you aren't getting a chance to get a good enough distance away from your opponents AND some how start running back towards them to just knock them on the ground with this attack and by the time you knock them down your revenge is over and all you've done is land a bad heavy on ONE opponent while your getting fisted from behind from 2 other opponents, just all around an unviable move.

BUT to fix this charge of the Oni and make it mildly reliable and would make sense for gokis stamina vampire kit is that when your opponent is out of stamina if you charge at them it SHOULD knock them down, I'm shook they didn't implement this since most of the time when an opponent is out of stamina going against a goki they'll just try to run, and since your chucky and funky chances are they'll regain their stamina before you even catch up. adding this would be a great buff for goki and would acutely make this move viable again. and for reference the gladiator has a similar move with his toe stab anyways so its not like it isn't overpowered. and obviously adding wall splat would be cool to, maybe a short wall splat that wouldn't guarantee a back breaker but maybe a heavy but at the very least guarantee a light.

now i know that this wouldn't get changed ever but the fact that every single characters unblockable attack aside from gokis headbutt can knock people off ledges is pretty sad. I've always gotten pretty depressed when i have a guy locked on a ledge and ill give him a few headbutts and his character will pretty much being floating off the edge but still recover because headbutt ledges are a no no from the developers, but they'll add a character with a similar heat seeking headbutt move that will knock you across the map into a pit of death but whatever lol who needs balance?

Also I'm suprised that the goki can be tossed around so easily from some of these other characters, being the biggest beef boy on the roster you'd think that about 90% of the roster would push the goki at a slightly less distance than the rest that would at least fit his tank roll that he has, maybe aside from the lawbringer, warlord, and another shugoki.

but all this info comes from myself a dedicated shugoki main who's logged way to many hours into this game and just wants to see it do better, and many other goki mains who feel the same way.