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RazireKVD
12-05-2017, 01:22 AM
Played Peacekeeper after a long time of basically being other classes, and the Peacekeeper seems shockingly slower in her attacks.
Was there a stealth nerf at some point, or perhaps an error in patching the nerf for her zone attack?

She just seems to slow compared to what she used to be, and it's kind of debilitating to her. I like Peacekeeper, and slowing her default attacks is a really bad idea, and I hope that this is just an error.

I can confirm that this is not only my opinion. My player group for For Honor all generally feels that the Peacekeeper is slower.

Is anyone else experiencing this slowdown in attacks?

bob333e
12-05-2017, 01:44 AM
From the official news and announcements:

[MAINTENANCE] November 30th: Live Update 1.15.1 (All Platforms)

Hello everyone,

There is a planned maintenance for tomorrow for live update 1.15.1. The estimated downtime is 45 minutes on all platforms.The maintenance will begin at 12:00 PM EST/17:00 PM UTC and end at 12:45 PM EST/17:45 PM UTC on Thursday, November 30 2017.

The full patch notes for Live Update 1.15.1 can be found below.

Fighter:

Peacekeeper

Zone attack Cancels recovery time increased by 200ms



Developer Comments: The Peacekeeper Zone attack is one of the fastest attack in the game and the second part could be cancelled instantaneously. It was creating infinite combo with revenge. The decision to add a recovery time is to make the move fairer and prevent the revenge abuse.


[Bug Fix] Counter Guardbreaking a Peacekeeper Guardbreak was not applying the same Damage Reduction modifier as all other heroes which led to possible abuse in group fights.

RazireKVD
12-05-2017, 03:46 AM
Yes, I am fully aware of the zone attack nerf, but again, this is not about the zone attack.

It's about the regular attacks, which is not mentioned at all in the patch notes.

Saml84
12-05-2017, 04:04 AM
I wish they would but sadly they refuse to her lights are blazing fast and I guess they like characters with fast lights which is why they made shaman, aramusha and Shinobi but whatever.

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 08:07 AM
I am a PK Main and since the Patch - yes, PK feels "slower" or, in my words, "clunky". The pause after a Zone is too long, you do a Zone, cancel the 2nd hit and then you wait for your opponent to attack... It's not like PK has many options left to go offensive - mostly it was mindgames if you go Zone into an immediate light to start a chain, a soft-feinted heavy GB or just a light attack. Now Zone is bullsht as a starter. What does she have left? And meanwhile Aramusha is light-chaining all over until the sun goes down and up again...

This is an especially brutal nerf because her Bugs that came up with the removal of Timesnap, which I reported and got confirmed MONTHS AGO, are not fixed or even mentioned! Have a look here:
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1721814-Peacekeeper-Soft-Feint-in-chained-Attacks-gone-since-timesnap-removal

@UbiJurassic or @UbiInsulin: Please "forward" this to the Devs. Fix PK soft-feints in chains asap!

Zombie.Face
12-05-2017, 10:14 AM
its still fast as hell. i think the fastest attack in the game.

Zombie.Face
12-05-2017, 10:18 AM
regular attack speed is the same. you must have been playing the lightning impossible to get away from aramusha. and now your used to fast. what can u do to get out of the aramusha spam attack as an assassin class? can't dodge out..?? why?? so ****,ing fast that u can't even dodge out of it. so u have to block top cause u can't react. so that means he gets a free side attack if he wants. any can we at least dodge out of it? no hero should have this power.

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 10:24 AM
its still fast as hell. i think the fastest attack in the game.


regular attack speed is the same. you must have been playing the lightning impossible to get away from aramusha. and now your used to fast. what can u do to get out of the aramusha spam attack as an assassin class? can't dodge out..?? why?? so ****,ing fast that u can't even dodge out of it. so u have to block top cause u can't react. so that means he gets a free side attack if he wants. any can we at least dodge out of it? no hero should have this power.

PK Zone is a 400ms Attack (it should be 400ms, with the removal of Timesnap it can be anything from 300-400ms...). Like Warlord Headbutt, every Aramusha consecutive Top Light, Shaman Predator Moves and Shinobi Top Dodge Kick.

ChampionRuby50g
12-05-2017, 11:48 AM
I am a PK Main and since the Patch - yes, PK feels "slower" or, in my words, "clunky". The pause after a Zone is too long, you do a Zone, cancel the 2nd hit and then you wait for your opponent to attack... It's not like PK has many options left to go offensive - mostly it was mindgames if you go Zone into an immediate light to start a chain, a soft-feinted heavy GB or just a light attack. Now Zone is bullsht as a starter. What does she have left? And meanwhile Aramusha is light-chaining all over until the sun goes down and up again...

This is an especially brutal nerf because her Bugs that came up with the removal of Timesnap, which I reported and got confirmed MONTHS AGO, are not fixed or even mentioned! Have a look here:
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1721814-Peacekeeper-Soft-Feint-in-chained-Attacks-gone-since-timesnap-removal

@UbiJurassic or @UbiInsulin: Please "forward" this to the Devs. Fix PK soft-feints in chains asap!

I also play in a high MMR, today when I played my rep 12 PK I was still able to zone cancel into GB or light effectively, so no you don't necessarily have to wait for your opponent. The 200ms delay is justified, the revenge spam did need to be dealt with. The devs did a good job IMO, and PK is still a very strong hero. Shortening the zone again should not happen. Too call it a brutal nerf is certainly over-exaggerating.

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 12:58 PM
I also play in a high MMR, today when I played my rep 12 PK I was still able to zone cancel into GB or light effectively, so no you don't necessarily have to wait for your opponent. The 200ms delay is justified, the revenge spam did need to be dealt with. The devs did a good job IMO, and PK is still a very strong hero. Shortening the zone again should not happen. Too call it a brutal nerf is certainly over-exaggerating.

Could you go into detail on my arguments then if I am over-exaggerating? PK got nerfed over and over, then they introduced Bugs with the removal of Timesnap, and before they fixed that mess they nerf her again? Come on, the only thing you had to do when a PK get's Revenge was dodge back and you were out of her Zone Spam. In high MMR this Zone Spam in Revenge does not even happen as everybody will parry your 2nd or 3rd Zone anyway.

PDXGorechild
12-05-2017, 02:00 PM
https://violinio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/violin-lessons1.jpg

ChampionRuby50g
12-05-2017, 08:28 PM
Could you go into detail on my arguments then if I am over-exaggerating? PK got nerfed over and over, then they introduced Bugs with the removal of Timesnap, and before they fixed that mess they nerf her again? Come on, the only thing you had to do when a PK get's Revenge was dodge back and you were out of her Zone Spam. In high MMR this Zone Spam in Revenge does not even happen as everybody will parry your 2nd or 3rd Zone anyway.

She got nerfed over and over at the start of the game because she was clearly overpowered. Using the words "brutal nerf" is an over exaggeration. It makes it sound like you think it's ok for her to have almost no recovery on zone, just because bugs appeared with time snap removal. Other heroes have 0 recovery frames on moves (Nobushi for example) which I think is BS and should be nerfed as well.

I think you haven't accepted the fact that the majority of players on this game are not in a high MMR, and as annoying as it is, the game will start to be balanced for that to keep more players in a already low populated game.

PK is still an A-S tier class hero, and very strong when played right, as you should know. What more could you want?

Oupyz
12-05-2017, 09:20 PM
She got nerfed over and over at the start of the game because she was clearly overpowered. Using the words "brutal nerf" is an over exaggeration. It makes it sound like you think it's ok for her to have almost no recovery on zone, just because bugs appeared with time snap removal. Other heroes have 0 recovery frames on moves (Nobushi for example) which I think is BS and should be nerfed as well.

I think you haven't accepted the fact that the majority of players on this game are not in a high MMR, and as annoying as it is, the game will start to be balanced for that to keep more players in a already low populated game.

PK is still an A-S tier class hero, and very strong when played right, as you should know. What more could you want?

what Does he want , even stronger pk =))

RazireKVD
12-05-2017, 10:14 PM
I just asked if the Peacekeeper's default light attack speed was reduced, and now there are people bringing the Aramusha and the Peacekeeper's zone attack into this. ._.
She is definitely not the fastest light attacker in the game, but she does currently feel slower in light attack speed than the Warlord.

Anybody do a test or something regarding the current attack speed compared to older attack speeds for her? I'd be interested in seeing it just to see if there's an error in her attacks or if she really was speed nerfed.

UbiJurassic
12-06-2017, 12:25 AM
Played Peacekeeper after a long time of basically being other classes, and the Peacekeeper seems shockingly slower in her attacks.
Was there a stealth nerf at some point, or perhaps an error in patching the nerf for her zone attack?

She just seems to slow compared to what she used to be, and it's kind of debilitating to her. I like Peacekeeper, and slowing her default attacks is a really bad idea, and I hope that this is just an error.

I can confirm that this is not only my opinion. My player group for For Honor all generally feels that the Peacekeeper is slower.

Is anyone else experiencing this slowdown in attacks?

Other than the recent changes detailed in Live Update 1.15.1, there shouldn't be any other changes that would make her feel slower than usual. I'll certainly note down the concerns though and keep an eye out for similar reports from players.


I am a PK Main and since the Patch - yes, PK feels "slower" or, in my words, "clunky". The pause after a Zone is too long, you do a Zone, cancel the 2nd hit and then you wait for your opponent to attack... It's not like PK has many options left to go offensive - mostly it was mindgames if you go Zone into an immediate light to start a chain, a soft-feinted heavy GB or just a light attack. Now Zone is bullsht as a starter. What does she have left? And meanwhile Aramusha is light-chaining all over until the sun goes down and up again...

This is an especially brutal nerf because her Bugs that came up with the removal of Timesnap, which I reported and got confirmed MONTHS AGO, are not fixed or even mentioned! Have a look here:
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1721814-Peacekeeper-Soft-Feint-in-chained-Attacks-gone-since-timesnap-removal

@UbiJurassic or @UbiInsulin: Please "forward" this to the Devs. Fix PK soft-feints in chains asap!

I'll make sure the thread you previously created is noted. If I hear back from the team on it, I'll look to let you know.

Oupyz
12-06-2017, 08:54 AM
UbiJurrasic, don't mind charmzzz pk is very very strong S-Tier Character , if u wanna bring note to the team , look at other heroes who are in dire need for buff

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 12:38 PM
She is definitely not the fastest light attacker in the game, but she does currently feel slower in light attack speed than the Warlord.

Anybody do a test or something regarding the current attack speed compared to older attack speeds for her? I'd be interested in seeing it just to see if there's an error in her attacks or if she really was speed nerfed.

She has 500ms Light's which are, among other Characters Light Attacks - the fastest in the game. Her Zone Attack is @400ms - together with some other moves of other Characters (e.g. WL Headbutt, Shinobi Front Kick) this is the fastest ingame move overall.

I did not test it though. Lights feel Ok for me, I just have a problem with the huge gap between a Zone and the next move I can do.




PK is still an A-S tier class hero, and very strong when played right, as you should know. What more could you want?

Not in my skill range, she is maybe B-A there. Other Characters (Nobu, LB, Raider, Shaman, Shinobi, WL) are much stronger when played right. And by right I mean cheesy (e.g. turtle, double dodge, Stampede / Impale / Charge). What I want? That PK gets FIXED. Not BUFFED. They destroyed her mixup game completely with the removal of Timesnap, so I HAVE TO LIGHT SPAM now to get someone killed. I never did that before, but those Bugs made it impossible to use Chains effectively in high level play...


UbiJurrasic, don't mind charmzzz pk is very very strong S-Tier Character , if u wanna bring note to the team , look at other heroes who are in dire need for buff

Wow, this is just.... Wow... You want a Community Manager to ignore a User and his concerns? Even more impressive when there were BUGS introduced on PK with the removal of Timesnap which made her even more a Light-Spam Character because other moves and mixups in her kit JUST DONT WORK ANYMORE.

What is wrong with you? I do not want PK buffed, I want her FIXED.

David_gorda
12-06-2017, 01:03 PM
^pk is still S tier. Show me one Of best team that dont use pk in 4vs 4. Pk is also the most used Class 2vs 2 competive brawls for a long long time. Pk Always get far in 1vs 1 tournaments aswell.

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 01:29 PM
^pk is still S tier. Show me one Of best team that dont use pk in 4vs 4. Pk is also the most used Class 2vs 2 competive brawls for a long long time. Pk Always get far in 1vs 1 tournaments aswell.

I cannot see your profile on FH Tracker, but here is mine: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Charmzzz

As you can see, I am playing in the top 5-10 percentile. All I see in Dominion is LB, Raider, Nobushi, Shaman. Rarely a PK. You want 2 Tanks / Disablers, 1 Nobushi and a "DPS" in your team. But this is almost never a PK because Shinobi / Shaman / Berserker do that job much better atm. Tactic: gank with LB / Raider for an Impale / Stampede, there comes the Berserker for a high damage top heavy plus hyperarmor. Have a group fight? Nobushi will rule it cause you cannot parry her wide-arc attacks when you are not the target.

The thing is, a PK does not have the tools to disable / stagger / force reactions from opponents. No unblockable means, in a ganking situation, just block the side of the PK, maybe CGB, and you do not have to worry about her at all.

Evidence of your claims? Show me please. Because all you do is "blabla PK S-Tier because I say so". Also, are you speaking for Console or PC? I am on PC. I know that Light Spam Characters are a problem on Console, and they all get far in Tournaments and such, but that only shows me that you did not understand my point. The bugs that were introduced and are still there on PK made her even more reliant on Light Spam. If they fix it - PK's do not need to only spam Lights!

David_gorda
12-06-2017, 01:38 PM
https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/davidgorda This My record and i play solo since season 2. Sure it might be a few better classes in 4vs4. I predict alot Of brawls Will be pk and shaman combo. The thing is there alot Of other classes that need help like highlander, kensai and conq.
Btw are you saying that matchmaking works in dominion on PC. Its just random People on all skill levels on ps4, duels and brawls Seems To have okish matchmaking but 4vs 4 is a mess.

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 01:59 PM
https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/davidgorda This My record and i play solo since season 2. Sure it might be a few better classes in 4vs4. I predict alot Of brawls Will be pk and shaman combo. The thing is there alot Of other classes that need help like highlander, kensai and conq.

Alright, so you play in an equal skill range, but on PS. As I said - on Console Light Spam is a problem. And what exactly did you still not understand in my posts?

1. I am not "asking for help / buff". I want Bugs fixed which were introduced with a patch! Highlander, Conq, Kensei have Bugs, too? Name me one please.
2. With said BUGFIXES PK will be less reliant on Light Spam - which should be good for Console players!?

David_gorda
12-06-2017, 02:03 PM
Alright, so you play in an equal skill range, but on PS. As I said - on Console Light Spam is a problem. And what exactly did you still not understand in my posts?

1. I am not "asking for help / buff". I want Bugs fixed which were introduced with a patch! Highlander, Conq, Kensei have Bugs, too? Name me one please.
2. With said BUGFIXES PK will be less reliant on Light Spam - which should be good for Console players!?ok fair point, My point is pk is playable character in higher lvls, the highlander, conq and kensai is not. If its easy and fast to fix the pk bugs sure do it but i rather see they speed up new moves for c tier classes.

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 02:42 PM
ok fair point, My point is pk is playable character in higher lvls, the highlander, conq and kensai is not. If its easy and fast to fix the pk bugs sure do it but i rather see they speed up new moves for c tier classes.

I have seen good Highlanders, Kenseis and especially Conqs which hold their stand in high level dominion. Conq can pretty much defend a point better than any other Character in the game. That is what he is made for, and that is what he excels at.

The removal of Timesnap did alot of bad things to the game - the PK Bugs are only a few of them. But it literally destroyed all of her mixups. Add in that ,since the removal of Timesnap, every move got pretty much unpredictable to parry and some moves even unable to block. See all 400ms moves which now, after the removal, can be anywhere between 300 and 400ms. Their main focus right now should be:
1. Add in their "lag compensation system" or rewind back to Timesnap. Then immediately check all moves on all Characters if they work properly. Or read forum / reddit...
2. Parry Changes!!! Defensive Meta fix!!!
3. Rework vanilla Characters.

But what did they do? Nerf PK which is broken for months. Nice focus...

Fairemont
12-06-2017, 02:55 PM
She got nerfed over and over at the start of the game because she was clearly overpowered. Using the words "brutal nerf" is an over exaggeration. It makes it sound like you think it's ok for her to have almost no recovery on zone, just because bugs appeared with time snap removal. Other heroes have 0 recovery frames on moves (Nobushi for example) which I think is BS and should be nerfed as well.

I think you haven't accepted the fact that the majority of players on this game are not in a high MMR, and as annoying as it is, the game will start to be balanced for that to keep more players in a already low populated game.

PK is still an A-S tier class hero, and very strong when played right, as you should know. What more could you want?

What!? No! You leave my Nobushi alone! :mad:

bob333e
12-06-2017, 03:29 PM
*laughs hysterically at the FHTracker eyestaring competition*

No but seriously, no hero is too weak for one thing or too strong for another. In the case of PK, she's still pretty deadly, only, less abusable now. And she's not in the priority list of OG characters who need reworks. Just my 2Steel.

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 04:00 PM
*laughs hysterically at the FHTracker eyestaring competition*

No but seriously, no hero is too weak for one thing or too strong for another. In the case of PK, she's still pretty deadly, only, less abusable now. And she's not in the priority list of OG characters who need reworks. Just my 2Steel.

What? So Nobushi is not too strong in group fights because nobody can parry her wide-arc attacks except the target which could even be out of range? Seriously?

And btw, PK also desperately needs a Rework. Just like every other OG Character after the DLC Characters came out. Having no access to any unblockable move at all is pro-def / turtle-meta. PK can come by with that because of her fast Zone, but that got nerfed and is not an opener anymore. So she has, vs high skill opponents, nothing left due to the bugs on her.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 04:05 PM
What? So Nobushi is not too strong in group fights because nobody can parry her wide-arc attacks except the target which could even be out of range? Seriously?

And btw, PK also desperately needs a Rework. Just like every other OG Character after the DLC Characters came out. Having no access to any unblockable move at all is pro-def / turtle-meta. PK can come by with that because of her fast Zone, but that got nerfed and is not an opener anymore. So she has, vs high skill opponents, nothing left due to the bugs on her.

Nobushi overpowered? far from it. Also, in 4v4s, any hero can become abusable, really. The core combat of this game isn't to constantly deal with ganks; it's 1v1s. And in 1v1s, Nobushi is super fine. I don't really see an issue with her.

The first due bracket (Kensei, Conq, Zerker) need more reworks than PK, and then, Orochi, Valk and Warden need reworks before PK. I could see PK being queued with Raider and Shugoki. PK is still A-tier for me. She's fast, swift, and zone isn't her only option, which you seem to keep bringing up as the main issue why PK became over-nerfed...

Note that timesnap removal affected many heroes, not just PK.

Charmzzz
12-06-2017, 04:25 PM
Nobushi overpowered? far from it. Also, in 4v4s, any hero can become abusable, really. The core combat of this game isn't to constantly deal with ganks; it's 1v1s. And in 1v1s, Nobushi is super fine. I don't really see an issue with her.

The first due bracket (Kensei, Conq, Zerker) need more reworks than PK, and then, Orochi, Valk and Warden need reworks before PK. I could see PK being queued with Raider and Shugoki. PK is still A-tier for me. She's fast, swift, and zone isn't her only option, which you seem to keep bringing up as the main issue why PK became over-nerfed...

Note that timesnap removal affected many heroes, not just PK.

1. Where did I say that Nobu is OP? I just said that she is too strong in 1vX Situations. Any Top Player will confirm that.
2. Nobushi has, as the only character in the game, a 0 recovery option with a dodge after any attack. That alone makes her super strong. Any Top Player will confirm that, it is (with unlock attacks) the cause why SB.Alernakin easily won the first official For Honor tournament using only Nobushi.
3. Again, PK has no opener. Not one. She can only react to opponent actions, if they are good at turtling. Zerker has the same problem, Kensei too, but Conq can at least do a dodge - bash/gb mixup from neutral to force a reaction.
4. Orochi, Valk and PK more than Warden imo. Warden has options, just like Conq.
5. Which other Option PK has from neutral? Zone - Light Attack - Heavy Feint - Heavy soft-feint GB - Heavy cancel into Light. Thats it. How do you counter all of those moves? Do nothing except changing your guard and be prepared for a CGB. Wow...
6. The removal of Timesnap completely BROKE PK's chained mixups. Name me one other Character that lost all his mixups with that patch.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 04:33 PM
1. Where did I say that Nobu is OP? I just said that she is too strong in 1vX Situations. Any Top Player will confirm that.
2. Nobushi has, as the only character in the game, a 0 recovery option with a dodge after any attack. That alone makes her super strong. Any Top Player will confirm that, it is (with unlock attacks) the cause why SB.Alernakin easily won the first official For Honor tournament using only Nobushi.
3. Again, PK has no opener. Not one. She can only react to opponent actions, if they are good at turtling. Zerker has the same problem, Kensei too, but Conq can at least do a dodge - bash/gb mixup from neutral to force a reaction.
4. Orochi, Valk and PK more than Warden imo. Warden has options, just like Conq.
5. Which other Option PK has from neutral? Zone - Light Attack - Heavy Feint - Heavy soft-feint GB - Heavy cancel into Light. Thats it. How do you counter all of those moves? Do nothing except changing your guard and be prepared for a CGB. Wow...
6. The removal of Timesnap completely BROKE PK's chained mixups. Name me one other Character that lost all his mixups with that patch.

1. Too strong / overpowered / too buffed / etc are iterations of the same meaning you intended to communicate.
2. It's one of her core things that make her deadly and challenging. Like her bleed. Every hero has one core thing to them; surprised you're more worried about Nobushi than Shaman. Because Shaman has more than one. By far most of my training today is against Shaman. Nobushi isn't problematic at all.
3 and 5. I'm no PK expert, you certainly know better; but I've fought experienced PK players and they do force reactions. And they make good use of her dodge attacks. In no way I've felt them slow (but again, I don't use PK, so I cannot account for a PK main's opinion here).
4. Not really. Warden's only openers are top light and zone. Block either left or top, that's one nullified opener, leaving Warden with one active, effective opener. Most good Wardens start with mind games and feints rather than direct attacks.
6. Shinobi. Became harder to combo with him. Ask around. Pretty sure he became somewhat harder to use.

frewbear
12-06-2017, 04:44 PM
I used to main PK back at the start and she was great for a long time, despite never using lightspam. She didn't need to if you were good with bleeds and her lunge attacks. Months ago whatever they did, probably timesnap, destroyed her flow and half her moves don't work properly or have delays that make it frustratingly slow to play what should be a very fast character. All they did was effectively make her more reliant on lightspam.

Saml84
12-06-2017, 04:46 PM
Lol people complaining pk sucks is the funniest thing.

Charmzzz
12-07-2017, 09:21 AM
1. Too strong / overpowered / too buffed / etc are iterations of the same meaning you intended to communicate.
2. It's one of her core things that make her deadly and challenging. Like her bleed. Every hero has one core thing to them; surprised you're more worried about Nobushi than Shaman. Because Shaman has more than one. By far most of my training today is against Shaman. Nobushi isn't problematic at all.
3 and 5. I'm no PK expert, you certainly know better; but I've fought experienced PK players and they do force reactions. And they make good use of her dodge attacks. In no way I've felt them slow (but again, I don't use PK, so I cannot account for a PK main's opinion here).
4. Not really. Warden's only openers are top light and zone. Block either left or top, that's one nullified opener, leaving Warden with one active, effective opener. Most good Wardens start with mind games and feints rather than direct attacks.
6. Shinobi. Became harder to combo with him. Ask around. Pretty sure he became somewhat harder to use.

1. Nobushi is fine 1on1, but not 1vX. You cannot parry her if she targets a player out of range and starts using Zone / Sidewinder to hit everybody in a big radius until she is nearly OOS. You literally can only block until she stops. Where is that NOT too strong? Which other Character can do that?

2. Challenging? Using dodge after any attack to have 0 recovery frames is challenging? What if they add 200ms delay, like they did after PK Zone? It is a very similar thing, yet you want to keep it on Nobu but nerfing it on PK is fine? Sounds pathetic, sorry.

3. How they force reactions? I am a Rep 40 PK playing in a high skillrating. I can tell you, as PK you cannot force anything. You have to react or rely on the other guy to be slow. Dodge attacks can only be used if the opponent uses an uncancelable move, anything feintable will net him a free parry.

4. This shows me that you have little idea of how Characters are played. Warden can always dodge forward (300ms dash recovery forward, GB is 400ms, so you cannot GB him out of that), then initiate a Shoulder Bash to force a reaction. He has a move from neutral where the opponent HAS TO DO something except blocking. PK does not have any move like this, just like Berserker and Orochi for example. But Zerkers and Orochis mixup games are not broken as PKs are.

5. Wow, what an example. Sounds like "Maybe Shinobi" but I have to ask around? Harder to combo what? Do you compare "harder to execute moves" to "5-6 mixups completely not in the game anymore"?


Lol people complaining pk sucks is the funniest thing.

Lol, people making fun of others because they want bugs fixed are the funniest thing.

Devils-_-legacy
12-07-2017, 09:26 AM
Now they fixed her infinity zone she's not really left with much she's got dodge side heavys forward dodge and (kind of)light spam(tbf she's no longer the king of light spam new hero's took that title from her)

Charmzzz
12-07-2017, 09:54 AM
Now they fixed her infinity zone she's not really left with much she's got dodge side heavys forward dodge and (kind of)light spam(tbf she's no longer the king of light spam new hero's took that title from her)

I do not even get the problem of those people complaining. If a PK gets Revenge you literally just have to constantly block your right side. That's it. Block your right - PK Revenge Zone Spam is completely denied. You can even parry her 2nd - 3rd attempt for a punish. I do it all the time when other PK's try to do it.

It was a thing in S1-2, but now? Rarely even see it, never use it myself.

bob333e
12-07-2017, 01:52 PM
1. Nobushi is fine 1on1, but not 1vX. You cannot parry her if she targets a player out of range and starts using Zone / Sidewinder to hit everybody in a big radius until she is nearly OOS. You literally can only block until she stops. Where is that NOT too strong? Which other Character can do that?

2. Challenging? Using dodge after any attack to have 0 recovery frames is challenging? What if they add 200ms delay, like they did after PK Zone? It is a very similar thing, yet you want to keep it on Nobu but nerfing it on PK is fine? Sounds pathetic, sorry.

3. How they force reactions? I am a Rep 40 PK playing in a high skillrating. I can tell you, as PK you cannot force anything. You have to react or rely on the other guy to be slow. Dodge attacks can only be used if the opponent uses an uncancelable move, anything feintable will net him a free parry.

4. This shows me that you have little idea of how Characters are played. Warden can always dodge forward (300ms dash recovery forward, GB is 400ms, so you cannot GB him out of that), then initiate a Shoulder Bash to force a reaction. He has a move from neutral where the opponent HAS TO DO something except blocking. PK does not have any move like this, just like Berserker and Orochi for example. But Zerkers and Orochis mixup games are not broken as PKs are.

5. Wow, what an example. Sounds like "Maybe Shinobi" but I have to ask around? Harder to combo what? Do you compare "harder to execute moves" to "5-6 mixups completely not in the game anymore"?

We're obviously on two different pages here, hence the start of a slight misunderstanding. Apologies if my previous comment caused any confusion.

To reiterate. Nobushi is only deadly because of those two things, 0 recovery frames on dodge, and her zone which is hardly parryable without target lock. Her bleed is situational, doesn't always land and when it lands, it's only dangerous if opponent is at low health. However PK can do faster things than Nobushi (except Nobushi's poke from Hidden Stance maybe). PK overall is faster. That's probably why many players saw her as 'overpowered' and she sat through several nerf sessions.

I understand where you're coming from. I'd hate to have my main hero nerfed for no logical reason too. Even if it was only the zone attack recovery. What's really a hard luck for the PK, is with the removal of timesnap; it affected her the most. And that's on top of the several nerfs she received.

PK, to me, is the fastest hero in the game. Faster than Shinobi, Shinobi's only fast gimmick is his kicks and flips. Otherwise he doesn't match a PK. And faster than Shaman; Shaman has too advantageous coverage plus her advanced feint game isn't a comparison factor, because only her can do that.

Hence why people saw PK as a problem, and not Nobushi. For the most part. I, personally, don't see any hero as deeply problematic, except for legit broken things like tracking on Shaman's Predator Mercy for instance (receiving a fix this month), and Centurion's infinite wallsplat back when he was fresh out, and Warden's oneshot kill bug, which thankfully did not last long.

Concerning number 4. I'm a Warden main, rep12 now, been only a month into For Honor but by the time I reach like 5 months of gameplay I'll likely hit rep40. His forward dash is very punishable before he even pulls off the SB, if you're within range. Add to that, his SB is interruptible with lights. His SB only forces a dodge, but a skilled Warden won't SB out of the blue. They'll feint it first. To see how you react. Then they counter accordingly.

Berserker has only one major gimmick, swinging heavy attacks then chaining a zone; all of which are easily read. Orochi is a better case, I agree his mixup game is great for an OG character. But honestly, in a matchup of a skilled Orochi vs a skilled PK, I cannot tell the outcome. Both are fast and deadly.

About number 5: no, not comparing "harder to execute" with "removed from the game", was just pointing out, the removal of timesnap affected several heroes, but it did hit PK the most. If anything, they should add timesnap back. It will benefit everybody.

Charmzzz
12-07-2017, 03:39 PM
PK is a fast, but not "the fastest per se", Character. Alot of Characters have 500ms Attacks. Some have 400ms melee unblockables. PK was just the only one with a 400ms attack (Zone for 20 Damage) from neutral until Shaman came out: her forward heavy dash attack is 400ms and deals 20 Damage, plus it can come from any direction. Also, Shaman has 500ms Lights with a guaranteed double hit if first one connects, just like Shinobi. So, if you want to call a Character "fastest" - it would be Shaman now.

Why is PK "deeply problematic" having no way to open up a turtle? Please tell me why, I am really interested. You can just put your block to your right side and only react on her top or left attacks - "problem" of fast Zone solved.

So you are a Warden main, but you forgot that Warden has more than Zone and Top Light? His forward dash has the fastest recovery in the game with 300ms, how do you punish that "on reaction"? You literally have to press GB BEFORE he dashes so he cannot CGB. His SB only forces a dodge? What are you talking about? Please, dodge my SB's! Free heavy for me! I know that Warden SB is counterable, but that wasnt even our argument. Our argument was about you stating that Warden does not have anything in his moveset that would force a reaction, like PK, which is simply not true. Versus a PK you can just stand there and block / cgb. There is nothing else she can do to open you up. Warden has a melee unblockable, feintable and cancelable move from neutral. That is a huuuge difference when fighting turtles.

I want Timesnap back, too. Or at least their new "lag compensation" system. Which, honestly, will be something similar, maybe with smaller "snap windows" @20/50ms. Thanks for admitting that removing Timesnap hit PK the most, as it did.

bob333e
12-07-2017, 05:37 PM
PK is a fast, but not "the fastest per se", Character. Alot of Characters have 500ms Attacks. Some have 400ms melee unblockables. PK was just the only one with a 400ms attack (Zone for 20 Damage) from neutral until Shaman came out: her forward heavy dash attack is 400ms and deals 20 Damage, plus it can come from any direction. Also, Shaman has 500ms Lights with a guaranteed double hit if first one connects, just like Shinobi. So, if you want to call a Character "fastest" - it would be Shaman now.

Other than her feinting game, what else does she have as "fast attacks"? please don't say Predator's Mercy because that thing is on another ladder as literally no other hero has a comparable move, the closest being Shugoki's Demon Embrace and that is still slower and with way less range. By 'fastest', in my own interpretation, I did not mean solely the speed of some attacks. Because by then it's a poor comparison; several heroes have 500ms attacks. To me, it's the fastest-moving character simply because of the way she moves. To restate, it is my own interpretation. I do not represent general belief. Nor I ever inferred general belief in my previous message.


Why is PK "deeply problematic" having no way to open up a turtle? Please tell me why, I am really interested. You can just put your block to your right side and only react on her top or left attacks - "problem" of fast Zone solved.

I cannot answer that. As aforementioned, I have no problems with PK. You'll have to ask someone who dislikes PK and why she's seen as "deeply problematic". You might have misinterpreted my previous message. Again, I do not represent general belief. As for countering PK, there are more things to do and consider than just simply blocking right and reacting top and left. But I will not derail this discussion into a showdown of Warden vs PK.


So you are a Warden main, but you forgot that Warden has more than Zone and Top Light?

Again, you misinterpreted my message. His top light and zone are his openers. Sure he can dash forward and do a SB but that's not an opener anymore. Perhaps we're diverging on the meaning of the word itself. By opener, I refer to something you can chain something else off of. Not opening a turtle. There are more ways in opening a turtle than SB, mind you.



His forward dash has the fastest recovery in the game with 300ms, how do you punish that "on reaction"? You literally have to press GB BEFORE he dashes so he cannot CGB. His SB only forces a dodge? What are you talking about? Please, dodge my SB's! Free heavy for me!

Dodge an SB, that's a free heavy or a free GB on the Warden. It's not an opener. It's a bash move that's very punishable with the right timing. Please don't compare Warden's SB to Centurion's kick, for instance. Yes, Centurion's kick is an opener. And probably his best one.
The forward dash means nothing as you can cancel a SB with a fast attack or you can dodge and punish accordingly. Plus when he dashes forward he's vulnerable to a free GB (as you stated) only, you're slightly wrong about the timing. There's a wider window to GB a dashing Warden, specifically, during the whole dashing animation. Add slightly more recovery on the side dashes. His recovery might be 300ms on the forward dash but again, his dash isn't a strength of some sort. It's usually meant to initiate a SB. Forward dashes rarely dodge attacks anyway, if ever. And they most certainly don't dodge GBs. Plus the Warden doesn't excel at range, so yeah it makes sense to use the forward dash to close distance. That's what the forward dash is mostly used for. Unless you're facing a vortex spammer.


Our argument was about you stating that Warden does not have anything in his moveset that would force a reaction, like PK, which is simply not true.

I stated that Warden's only openers are top light and zone; PK also has a zone that acts like an opener. (By opener meaning something you chain stuff off of). Block to your left, you nullify Warden's zone. Similarly, I block right, I nullify PK's zone. They both have a zone that serves the same purpose and is countered the same way.

Opening up turtles is another debate and I'm afraid will land us into further misunderstanding. It all converges on individual playstyle and ways to counter specific heroes.


I want Timesnap back, too. Or at least their new "lag compensation" system. Which, honestly, will be something similar, maybe with smaller "snap windows" @20/50ms. Thanks for admitting that removing Timesnap hit PK the most, as it did.

Looks like this is the only thing we're mutually agreeing on. Still, thanks for being responsive and collected. Apologies again for all the confusion above, none of it was intended.

Devils-_-legacy
12-08-2017, 12:27 AM
She needs a rework but they should of nurfed her zone I've been saying the same about nobushi zone it's stupidly fast and zero risk I fell she's in the same boat as all the ogs there trailing behind waiting for the much needed reworks hopefully her kit (and the rest ) will be on par with Shaman I'm holding out with hope lol

hecate160992
12-08-2017, 01:58 AM
She has 500ms Light's which are, among other Characters Light Attacks - the fastest in the game. Her Zone Attack is @400ms - together with some other moves of other Characters (e.g. WL Headbutt, Shinobi Front Kick) this is the fastest ingame move overall.

I did not test it though. Lights feel Ok for me, I just have a problem with the huge gap between a Zone and the next move I can do.



Not in my skill range, she is maybe B-A there. Other Characters (Nobu, LB, Raider, Shaman, Shinobi, WL) are much stronger when played right. And by right I mean cheesy (e.g. turtle, double dodge, Stampede / Impale / Charge). What I want? That PK gets FIXED. Not BUFFED. They destroyed her mixup game completely with the removal of Timesnap, so I HAVE TO LIGHT SPAM now to get someone killed. I never did that before, but those Bugs made it impossible to use Chains effectively in high level play...



Wow, this is just.... Wow... You want a Community Manager to ignore a User and his concerns? Even more impressive when there were BUGS introduced on PK with the removal of Timesnap which made her even more a Light-Spam Character because other moves and mixups in her kit JUST DONT WORK ANYMORE.

What is wrong with you? I do not want PK buffed, I want her FIXED.

If anything PK is the character than benefitted the most from timesnap removal.

Charmzzz
12-08-2017, 09:20 AM
If anything PK is the character than benefitted the most from timesnap removal.

Elaborate please. Yes, her Zone is now between 300 and 400ms. Same applies to Warlord Headbutt and Shinobi Kick. But Timesnap disabled ALL of her mixups in Chains. Every single mixup is broken since months. Where is that a "benefit"? Block your right and you take PK's only "benefit" from Timesnap removal out.

@Fady117: Warden and PK Zone are not "Openers" because they cannot be chained into anything. They are just fast attacks with mediocre damage and high stamina cost. Wardens is unsafe on block, PKs triggers a very long recovery time on block and now even on hit. Both are very "bad" moves, PKs is just slightly better because it is 100ms faster.

Yes, we do not agree on what an "Opener" is. For me it is a way to initiate the fight on a turtle as it "opens them up". I agree on SB not being a safe Opener, but still it is way better to have an unblockable from neutral than to not have it in the current meta.

RazireKVD
12-08-2017, 11:36 PM
Other than the recent changes detailed in Live Update 1.15.1, there shouldn't be any other changes that would make her feel slower than usual. I'll certainly note down the concerns though and keep an eye out for similar reports from players.
Thank you for listening. I know it's not the biggest issue the game has, but the Peacekeeper's light attacks do seem slower than what they used to be, which is not good for an assassin character. If we could just have her light attacks flow a little faster, I think that would be better. Not guaranteed hits like Shinobi or Warden, but still, just a bit more speed to them would be nice. I wasn't kidding when I said her light attacks were being out-paced by slower characters. Even if it's just her second light being faster, I think it would help. Sort of a slow open, quick follow-up thing.