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View Full Version : How to Get Out of Warden's Vortex as LB?



KotoKuraken
12-04-2017, 04:00 AM
Stopping the Vortex from happening is one thing. If the Warden cancels his shoulder bash into a guardbreak I can easily get out of it with literally anything.

However, if the Warden decides to bash, then keep doing double side lights, bash, double side lights, bash, I have absolutely zero things I can do. I can't dodge, I can't roll (it ALWAYS catches me when I roll as LB or I'm too stunned to roll), I can't top light out of the bash (which is the fastest move LB has), I can't long arm out of it (this only works when the Warden cancels into gb), I can't bash out of it, and I can't grab them out of it.

How do you get out of a Warden Vortex as Lawbringer if you've
already got bashed once,
and they just keep doing side lights and bash?
I need to be able to recover fast enough to at least do a top light because that feels like bs. Assassins seem to get around it just fine, but not LB


Edit: Let me add a scenario. Let's say a Warden just parried you, which sends you OOS. He bashes you. That bash guaranteed a double side light. Now the only way to get out of this would be to roll out, but you're OOS so you can't roll. Which means the next bash is guaranteed, which guarantees another double side light, into bash, into light. This will continue until the Warden is out of stamina himself, but essentially just the Vortex alone would guarantee 100 damage if the Warden can perform 4 Shoulder Bashes with his stamina.

Here's another scenario. Let's say you rolled out of a Shoulder Bash. Because you had performed moves prior and just spent a bunch of stamina on rolling away, you are now OOS. Which means the next time you get hit with a bash, it will guarantee a light. That will guarantee a bash. That will guarantee another light. How do you get out of that before the Warden runs out of stamina and before you die?


All I need is one video to prove that someone like a Lawbringer can take a bash and double lights, and dodge out of another uncancelled bash, because the only time I've ever seen or tried to dodge out of a Warden Vortex was only when a Warden cancelled into a guardbreak. So far I have zero evidence to prove that a Lawbringer can escape Vortex without rolling, because otherwise Warden's Vortex is unescapable while OOS using any heavyset character.

Arekonator
12-04-2017, 04:05 AM
Get the timing down where you can roll out, it is possible. I personally cant recall when i sucesfully dodged with LB after double light lands,i dont know if dodge is too short/slow or hitbox too big, but specifically with LB i just cant do it. There is small window where roll out is possible tho.
Edit: to speed the roll up, unlock first, then you can get into the roll imediatelly, dont need to press the dash twice.

KotoKuraken
12-04-2017, 04:20 AM
See thing is,
1) firstly rolling out shouldn't be my only option. Literally no other character requires rolling as the only option to deal with a move, and it drains a crapton of stamina just to roll, which would lead to being OOS most of the time. At that point I literally can't get out of it
2) if it's the only option to deal with it, why is the window for it so freaking small. All a Warden has to do is light then bash the entire game, but the Lawbringer has to calculate the exact millisecond to roll away and go OOS just to avoid this combo

Arekonator
12-04-2017, 04:25 AM
There also seem to be issue where if you change your guard while you hit, your character adjust the guard before the dodge and thus delays it, preventing you from dodging in time.

ChampionRuby50g
12-04-2017, 05:25 AM
Rep 37 LB, gotta say only effective way from that point does seem to be rolling at the right time, which is not ideal. It's easy enough to dodge from neutral, and it's also easy to top light at that stage.
You're right, rolling shouldn't be the only option.

Nokhchalla
12-04-2017, 06:31 AM
Rep 33 LB, if you are OOS and he bashes you itís all over, you cant roll out, side step or do anything, he WILL kill you if he continues which is stupid as hell. I had one who bashed me 4 times continuously when I was OOS. I died ofc. Same thing happens with Conqs shield bash if he continues. If you do have stamina it is possible to roll out or side step, however as said it needs to be timed precisely, something which is hard for new players.

All in all, a pretty cheesy no skill move that can easily drain all of your hp in no time. Iíve made a couple of threads about this, but as usual, noobs who main these characters will write anything to stop these no skill attacks from getting nerfed

THE_MAD_KlNG
12-04-2017, 06:46 AM
So rolling out of the way it's a good option what you can also do is to sidestep shove you'll get hit by it but you push him out of it and you going to your 50/50. I find the ladder to be the best but only if you have a lot of heath.

I personally don't find it super hard to deal with but that's just me. It's also good to bait out the top Crushing encounter and then shove him back or Perry. Hope this helps you.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-04-2017, 06:46 AM
As a main Warden, I have to admit I don't see vortex very often these days. However, when there is someone forcing it, it makes me mad. Personally, I am not doing it and yet I manage to make it hard for every Warden out there.

These days I am practicing with LB and I did on one occasion had to fight someone who was forcing vortex. He did kill me first time since I didn't know what his play style was like, but later on I gave him run for his money. For me, pressure works the best and hiting hard and hiting fast is the right way to get under opponent's skin. That is when he starts to panic and open himself more just so he could hit you back out of desperation. Easier sad than done, I know. It is a more of a mind game than moveset your hero has. After all, most Wardens are one trick pony.

For me, fighting Shinobi as LB is a nightmare. He just keeps dancing around and slapping me. Based on just 1 week experience with LB, Shinobi a worst match up for LB and just shows all the issues this game has with balancing heroes.

bananaflow2017
12-04-2017, 07:44 AM
See thing is,
1) firstly rolling out shouldn't be my only option. Literally no other character requires rolling as the only option to deal with a move, and it drains a crapton of stamina just to roll, which would lead to being OOS most of the time. At that point I literally can't get out of it
2) if it's the only option to deal with it, why is the window for it so freaking small. All a Warden has to do is light then bash the entire game, but the Lawbringer has to calculate the exact millisecond to roll away and go OOS just to avoid this combo

You have to stop the camera lock. Then it's pretty easy to get out of it.
It's working so good, that his vortex isnt a thing anymore.

Charmzzz
12-04-2017, 04:37 PM
Top Light should do the trick as it is a 500ms move. I regularly hit Warden out of their Vortex with other 500ms Attacks, you just have to get the Timing right. If you are OOS before he starts his SB spam - you screwed over earlier. But anyway I think that the Warden himself is nearly OOS after 3 SB into Double Light which deals a combined 72 Damage. That is not the best OOS punish in the game and you can still try to dodge the SB.

bob333e
12-04-2017, 05:00 PM
Dodging to the side after getting hit with the double lights and before the next shoulder bash. Surprisingly, if a Warden does this to another Warden, the other Warden also has no other option than dodging to the side before the next SB. Actually, the deadliest thing to a Warden, is another Warden.

If you're OOS, your only option is dodging. If you have stamina, you could attempt a roll but that's only if you have clear room; if you collide with something (wall, barrel, etc) you'll still get caught if you roll. Dodging works better.

David_gorda
12-04-2017, 05:08 PM
Unlock and roll is the best way to deal with the vortex as lawbringer. Toplight is fast enough to interupt shoulderbash buy risk eating a crushing cointerstrike.

MetalDevil19
12-04-2017, 06:46 PM
If I heard correctly, they are going to take the ability away to roll away from guard breaks? You will still get guard broken? as part of their "Defensive meta fixes" along with other things.

if that's the case, then rest in pieces.

Erhanninja
12-04-2017, 07:49 PM
I play Nobushi as main. if I see vortex coming I do any left or right light attack. He can't initiate vortex or GB me.

But if I get hit light into vortex it gets difficult but you can still do what I mentioned above.

I know LB top light is extremely fast. Even if you get hit once try to top light him before he does it again. Obviously next time he might cancel and parry you so bear in mind.

Also I saw LB roll out of a vortex spam so it is possible.

But I want to know myself is is it possible to get out of vortex spam when OOS?

David_gorda
12-04-2017, 07:54 PM
[QUOTE=Erhanninja;13156031]I play Nobushi as main. if I see vortex coming I do any left or right light attack. He can't initiate vortex or GB me.

But if I get hit light into vortex it gets difficult but you can still do what I mentioned above.

I know LB top light is extremely fast. Even if you get hit once try to top light him before he does it again. Obviously next time he might cancel and parry you so bear in mind.

Also I saw LB roll out of a vortex spam so it is possible.

But I want to know myself is is it possible to get out of vortex spam when OOS?[/QUOTE ]when Oos you need to Guess if he going to shoulderbash or cancel to guardbreak, then its a Real 50:50.

KotoKuraken
12-04-2017, 10:13 PM
To everyone saying you can side dodge bash or top light,
No, it does not stop a Warden Vortex. If he cancels into a guardbreak yes, but not if he is only doing bash attack bash attack.

Top light, side bash, and longarm are NOT fast enough to stop a Warden who isn't cancelling the Vortex

bob333e
12-05-2017, 01:27 AM
To everyone saying you can side dodge bash or top light,
No, it does not stop a Warden Vortex. If he cancels into a guardbreak yes, but not if he is only doing bash attack bash attack.

Top light, side bash, and longarm are NOT fast enough to stop a Warden who isn't cancelling the Vortex

Found you some informative stuff. Watch how he counters the Warden (and backdodges a vortex at 0:43 and 1:30):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3Ttmy1f4g

And here, watch how he dodges a vortex at 0:33, and then kept pressure so as to not give him enough room for another vortex:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQx2nqbTxjE

Keep most of your guard in upper stance, because Warden's top light is his best opener to initiate a vortex; otherwise if you see him dashing forward or sideways he's likely attempting a free SB which is then easily telegraphed and can be dodged without problems.

I'm sure I can find more of these. And to note, these videos are dated March and April, which was before the important big title updates; Lawbringer today sure has become better than how he was back then. Also, work more on your reaction time and dodge timing. Pretty sure you'll be cancelling vortex spam pretty soon :)

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 01:00 AM
Found you some informative stuff. Watch how he counters the Warden (and backdodges a vortex at 0:43 and 1:30):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u3Ttmy1f4g

And here, watch how he dodges a vortex at 0:33, and then kept pressure so as to not give him enough room for another vortex:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQx2nqbTxjE

Keep most of your guard in upper stance, because Warden's top light is his best opener to initiate a vortex; otherwise if you see him dashing forward or sideways he's likely attempting a free SB which is then easily telegraphed and can be dodged without problems.

I'm sure I can find more of these. And to note, these videos are dated March and April, which was before the important big title updates; Lawbringer today sure has become better than how he was back then. Also, work more on your reaction time and dodge timing. Pretty sure you'll be cancelling vortex spam pretty soon :)

I see you read nothing of my post at all.

The question is not how to stop it before it has begun, the question is

How do you get out of Warden Vortex once you've already gotten hit once, and all they do is bash attack bash attack
To clarify (and nullify the points you just made in your reply), when you've gotten hit once, there is literally no way to get out of a Warden's Vortex if he bashed once, and he only does bash attack bash attack

bob333e
12-06-2017, 01:13 AM
I see you read nothing of my post at all.

The question is not how to stop it before it has begun, the question is

How do you get out of Warden Vortex once you've already gotten hit once, and all they do is bash attack bash attack
To clarify (and nullify the points you just made in your reply), when you've gotten hit once, there is literally no way to get out of a Warden's Vortex if he bashed once, and he only does bash attack bash attack

And I see you haven't even bothered to watch these videos. Because, in these videos, they escaped the vortex after getting hit.

But it's cool, I tried.

Knight_Raime
12-06-2017, 01:14 AM
See thing is,
1) firstly rolling out shouldn't be my only option. Literally no other character requires rolling as the only option to deal with a move, and it drains a crapton of stamina just to roll, which would lead to being OOS most of the time. At that point I literally can't get out of it
2) if it's the only option to deal with it, why is the window for it so freaking small. All a Warden has to do is light then bash the entire game, but the Lawbringer has to calculate the exact millisecond to roll away and go OOS just to avoid this combo

Rolling has been the most effective and consistent way to avoid some things for all characters though. So saying "roll" is a valid response.
Second point is about bad match ups. Which exist in fighting games. You don't have to like it. But it's standard.

This is a match up specific issue that you're trying to blow up into something bigger. that specific situation hasn't been a global issue with the game for quite some time. Warden's kit is indeed flawed and can use some work. But not due to this one specific instance.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 01:26 AM
And I see you haven't even bothered to watch these videos. Because, in these videos, they escaped the vortex after getting hit.

But it's cool, I tried.

Oh but I did watch them, especially at the timestamps you provided. Which are just LB dodging before getting hit by a bash. My question was not whether or not you could dodge it before getting hit, my question referred to what you do after you get hit by a bashand the Warden keeps going for continuous bashes and lights in the same chain. That means you've already gotten hit by a bash once, and he only goes for bash light bash light; no cancelling into guardbreak, because it's easy to get out of a Vortex where he cancels into a guardbreak. You cannot get out of a Warden Vortex chain if you've gotten hit by a bash already and all he does is bash light bash light.

If you have any video evidence regarding that, that would be appreciative.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 01:32 AM
Oh but I did watch them, especially at the timestamps you provided. Which are just LB dodging before getting hit by a bash. My question was not whether or not you could dodge it before getting hit, my question referred to what you do after you get hit by a bashand the Warden keeps going for continuous bashes and lights in the same chain. That means you've already gotten hit by a bash once, and he only goes for bash light bash light; no cancelling into guardbreak, because it's easy to get out of a Vortex where he cancels into a guardbreak. You cannot get out of a Warden Vortex chain if you've gotten hit by a bash already and all he does is bash light bash light.

If you have any video evidence regarding that, that would be appreciative.

Unsure what differentiates a light attack pre-vortex from a light attack mid-vortex. You can dodge after either one, before eating the next SB. Rolling also works in some situations.

If you would bother to surf YT yourself for further evidence and do the research yourself, instead of blatantly complaining and being ungrateful to others who tried to assist (in vain), that would be appreciative.

Or get a friend and practice vortex-dodging. That would be appreciative too.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 01:39 AM
I have watched it and many others like it. I have surfed the web, I have asked people in discord, and I have come with a simple question that has only ever been answered with "you can only dodge it at a precise timing by rolling" or incorrectly answered by people who misunderstood the question.

There is a HUGE difference between having been bashed vs not having been bashed already, because the bash is what stuns you. Please, try it. Go to a Warden as a Lawbringer. Try out the difference between dodging a bash before you get Vortexed, vs having a bash light and try to dodge the second bash as he goes for another bash light. You cannot simply dodge it, and there is no evidence of actually dodging the second bash if second bash is another light attack

I've done my research, that's why I came to this to make a post. In the event that someone could prove to me that you can indeed simply sidestep a Vortex or use some other method besides rolling to escape a Vortex that is only light bash light bash after you've already gotten bashed once, I would accept that as the solution. However, there has yet to be any viable way to get out of that without having to roll at the precise moment, which puts you into OOS due to the huge stamina drain, and at that point you can't roll out of it because you went OOS trying to roll out of it in the first place.

Which means that if there is no solution other than rolling out, this would be considered a bug/broken mechanic and would need to be fixed.

David_gorda
12-06-2017, 02:06 AM
Like i Said before and others also Said, if he hits you with bash and double sidelight you unlock and roll away. Its the safest and best way to deal with vortex. If you Oos its a nasty guessing Game if he Will bash or cancel to guardbreak. 50/50 ao either you try dodge or counter GB depending of what you think he Will do.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 05:35 AM
See if a Warden cancels into a guardbreak, that is super easy to get out of, because anything will stop it. However, if he goes for another bash into light, you cannot get out of it while OOS. It's when people say stuff like this


Unsure what differentiates a light attack pre-vortex from a light attack mid-vortex. You can dodge after either one, before eating the next SB. Rolling also works in some situations.

that makes me think that some people haven't fully known this problem. There was a similar problem with Centurion: before Cent's nerf, if you landed both heavies then his punch was guaranteed. When people became aware of this, it was nerfed into the ground. The problem with Vortex is similar, after the first bash hits, if you don't cancel the second bash, it seems to connect the second bash on heavyset classes like with Lawbringer.

To appease people like that, I have gone to research (even further than the countless videos I've watched, people in Discord I've asked, and actual ingame encounters), and I can verify that if you have been bashed, and the Warden does not cancel or charge his Shoulder Bash, the next bash will not be avoidable unless you get precise timing down to the frame on that roll. I can also verify that if you are OOS, you cannot and will not ever escape that Vortex because he is constantly draining your stamina and you can't roll while OOS. As long as he keeps doing this (which is usually up to 4 times in a row), he is doing a full health bar of damage each bash, which means just one Vortex where you've already been bashed can lead to a guaranteed 100 damage OOS punish that you cannot get out of when you get bashed just once.

RoosterIlluzion
12-06-2017, 05:39 AM
Stopping the Vortex from happening is one thing. If the Warden cancels his shoulder bash into a guardbreak I can easily get out of it with literally anything.

However, if the Warden decides to keep doing double side lights, bash, double side lights, bash, I absolutely zero things I can do. I can't dodge, I can't roll (it ALWAYS catches me when I roll as LB or I'm too stunned to roll), I can't top light out of the bash (which is the fastest move LB has), I can't long arm out of it (this only works when the Warden cancels into gb), I can't bash out of it, and I can't grab them out of it.

How do you get out of a Warden Vortex as Lawbringer if you've already got bashed once and they just keep doing side lights and bash?
I need to be able to recover fast enough to at least do a top light because that feels like bs

Edit: Emphasizing for people who don't read. Again, this is not preventing the bash, this is when you've already got hit once by a bash, and all they do is attack bash attack bash, never cancelling. Because as pretty much every player has shown so far, the only way to get out is to roll out at the millisecond there is an open time between the last attack and the next bash, which is both extremely stamina draining and should not be the only option to counter it

Kinda feels like, how do you get out of LBs shove, GB, pole vault, shove, GB, heavy, etc?

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 05:47 AM
Kinda feels like, how do you get out of LBs shove, GB, pole vault, shove, GB, heavy, etc?

With Lawbringer, you can dodge out of it because the bash doesn't chain off of a guaranteed move. Warden's light is guaranteed, and his bash is guaranteed off his light. Warlord has a guaranteed light, but the next bash is not guaranteed. Shinobi gets a guaranteed hit, but cannot guarantee another bash.

The one difference Warden has that literally no other character has is that his light and bash guarantee each other.

Arekonator
12-06-2017, 05:47 AM
Not nearly comparable. Shove from neutral is one of the easiest things to dodge and cannot be cancelled into grab. Even if you dont dodge you can just stand and wait for the CGB, at worst you are risking eating a single light.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 05:52 AM
Not nearly comparable. Shove from neutral is one of the easiest things to dodge and cannot be cancelled into grab. Even if you dont dodge you can just stand and wait for the CGB, at worst you are risking eating a single light.

That's the thing, we're considering "how do you get out of a Vortex if the Warden has already bashed you once and is not cancelling his bash into a gb?"
Let's say he does a Crushing Counterstrike, which guarantees a bash and puts you OOS, what then? You will die because you cannot get out of the Vortex, because CCS guaranteed the bash, which guaranteed the light, which guarantees another bash, which guarantees another light and so on until he is out of stamina or you are dead.

Since the only viable answer I have been getting as a solution has been "Just roll away", if you are OOS and he's not cancelling into GB, you have precisely zero ways of escaping that Vortex as long as Warden has stamina

bob333e
12-06-2017, 02:53 PM
Not nearly comparable. Shove from neutral is one of the easiest things to dodge and cannot be cancelled into grab. Even if you dont dodge you can just stand and wait for the CGB, at worst you are risking eating a single light.

Don't waste your time. I'm so done with this guy. He just blew his cover; being nothing more than an enflamed troll whining on the forums purely out of personal bias/vendetta specifically against Warden class, and his wet dream is to see Warden nerfed to the ground for no logical reason simply because he fails to counter Warden's kit AND refuses to practice or get a friend to train with.

See, it's when people say stuff like this:


Let's say he does a Crushing Counterstrike, which guarantees a bash and puts you OOS, what then?

Makes me realize just how knowledgeable he is, really, before even thinking to make a thread about Warden's vortex: Warden does NOT put you OOS with a CC, and Warden needs more than 3 shoulder bashes, to even have a chance to put you OOS. That, and if both characters start from neutral, and Warden chains vortex until he's OOS, your character will STILL have stamina. And that's a Warden main here (hi) speaking out of knowledge, not yapping willy-nilly like the OP.

He keeps going on about the OOS issue, makes you think just how much of a skilled LB player he is. If he's constantly getting himself OOS, he might want to consider changing hero. LB isn't really for him.

But nooohooooo, if you're not a LB main and you don't drag yourself OOS and you don't get stuck in a vortex and fail to escape it, and you don't hate Wardens as much as he does, you've not read a single thing he wrote! you don't understand what he said! Warden op nerf *waahh*!

Been all over Discord and Reddit, he says. In a 5mins search I found these on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/5wuqnq/psa_wardens_vortex_counter/#bottom-comments
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/64kher/lawbringer_beats_warden_vortex/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/5thetw/a_guide_to_escaping_the_warden_shoulder_charge/

Dated February/March, when game was still new, and people were already figuring out ways to counter one of For Honor's most basic mixup combos. You'd think, almost a year after release now, the playerbase would have been already knowledgeable around this issue. He seems a newbie to me who decided to center his hatred on Wardens. Because he can't counter Warden. And because he refuses to practice.

I was actually inclined to call a friend and borrow 30mins of his time (he's a Warden main), pick Lawbringer, test it out, and show him results and answers; but seeing as he's doing all of this out of personal hatred for Wardens, refusing sound advice (others have provided answers here yet he refuses to even go practice), being ungrateful and just another whiner in general, yeah.... I'll pass.

@KotoKuraken don't bother replying to this message. Wasted enough time on you already. From here on I'll just agree to disagree.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 04:48 PM
<Accusation of trolling simply because I'm asking a question that isn't easy to answer>

<snip>

<Childish retort>

Been all over Discord and Reddit, he says. In a 5mins search I found these on Reddit:

<links>

<Ranting on skill level and other insults>

<I wanted to tell you I won't do it>

@KotoKuraken don't bother replying to this message. Wasted enough time on you already. From here on I'll just agree to disagree.

Now you're just sounding petty, going straight for the insults. But I will address this message anyways because there is a genuine problem (and because I will admit I was kind of furious last night).

Yes, I was corrected later that CCS does not put you OOS. However, getting parried, does put you OOS (I altered my OP to reflect that). I'm a Plat player; I'm far from the best kind of player, but also far from the worst.

Now, the thing is, your first and third links only address the first bash. The second link does address the second bash, but I personally tried that before writing up this post because I found it does not work. Whether that is because it only works when the Warden cancels into gb (which it does) or because they patched LB to not be able to long arm a second bash, I have no clue. It doesn't work, as I've stated in my OP before starting this whole thread.

I'll link in this video. It has two rounds. The first round you see I have no problems against the Warden at all. Come the second round, I'm doing really good with stamina management, he parries me once, I go OOS.
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/KotoKuraken/video/40516010

He bashes me. After that first bash, I attempt to dodge left. The second bash catches me. I attempt to dodge left again. This time I do make a little bit of movement, straight into a guardbreak because the only time I can get any movement by dodging is whenever the Shoulder Bash is cancelled into a guardbreak, which doesn't help.
My question is why I was not able to simply dodge left between the first bash and the second, when I can easily dodge other bashes from Conq, Lawbringer, and Warlord. The answer seems to be answered by your first and third links there, which is, you can't while OOS. Which you can easily go into by your opponent simply parrying you.

So far, the only way that I can see of getting out of a Vortex is to roll away, which again should not be the only option I should have to escape a Vortex if he doesn't cancel his bashes. This is especially bad if you've gotten parried even once and it sends you into punishland.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 04:54 PM
Now you're just sounding petty, going straight for the insults.

Never stated any. And oh I agree with whatever you continued this message with. I already stopped taking you seriously.

Nice quoting stigma in there too. Really shows how I've hit the nail on your ego. I probably should take an ego-bashing job. At 300ms, with unblockable shoulder bashes you cannot possibly dodge. *wink wink*

Happy Hunting. Practice more.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 05:43 PM
Ah, a useless troll who gets mad and takes things personally, when I'm addressing your points. You didn't like how I addressed your points as not being solutions when they weren't, so you gave up.
I never said I was great. Never said I was better than anyone. But when your point doesn't actually give me an answer, I'm not going to take it as one.

Next, please.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 05:59 PM
Ah, a useless troll who gets mad and takes things personally, when I'm addressing your points. You didn't like how I addressed your points as not being solutions when they weren't, so you gave up.
I never said I was great. Never said I was better than anyone. But when your point doesn't actually give me an answer, I'm not going to take it as one.

Next, please.

Quite the contrary; you've almost made me spit my coffee with how you've reacted to every single thing I wrote in here.

I didn't like how ungrateful you are, how whiney you are, and most importantly, how egotistical and self-priviledged you are.

Yes, better to cut this short before the mods close your thread. You wouldn't want this to happen now, would you.

Stick to your main point from now on. Instead of targeting others who originally tried to actually be helpful. :)

Nokhchalla
12-06-2017, 06:09 PM
I agree with what he's saying, the SB is so played out and used by no skill cowards and rolling out shouldn't be the only option. I've done that many times and gotten OOS and you already know what happens next dont you? Non-stop SB from these cowards cause they know when im OOS I cant do anything. You aren't the only one who is annoyed by this POS no skill tactic Koto. Take a look at this older thread.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1784774-Put-1-2-Second-Cooldown-on-Warden-s-Shoulder-Bash-amp-Conq-Shield-Bash

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 06:27 PM
Stick to your main point from now on. Instead of targeting others who originally tried to actually be helpful. :)

I'm attempting to gather information, but everytime I address your points you seem to take it personally. Every time I respond, I give a reason why.
I have acknowledged when I was wrong, such as with the CCS. I have acknowledged I'm not the best, but you seem to have the impression that I think of myself as a god. Far from it, I'm simply trying to acquire the correct information by assessing all the evidence being provided. So far the points you have made only address dealing with the first bash or a cancel into gb, which are not the problem here. The problem is trying to find some other way besides rolling, that you can get out of the second uncancelled bash as a Lawbringer.

Thank you @ChechenOverlord. It at least is another light to the situation.
While my original post was regarding how to get out of it other than rolling, the discussions that were made over these 4 pages and your linked thread do support my other related point that while OOS, it is impossible to escape Vortex.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 06:50 PM
I'm attempting to gather information, but everytime I address your points you seem to take it personally. Every time I respond, I give a reason why.
I have acknowledged when I was wrong, such as with the CCS. I have acknowledged I'm not the best, but you seem to have the impression that I think of myself as a god. Far from it, I'm simply trying to acquire the correct information by assessing all the evidence being provided. So far the points you have made only address dealing with the first bash or a cancel into gb, which are not the problem here. The problem is trying to find some other way besides rolling, that you can get out of the second uncancelled bash as a Lawbringer.

Thank you @ChechenOverlord. It at least is another light to the situation.
While my original post was regarding how to get out of it other than rolling, the discussions that were made over these 4 pages and your linked thread do support my other related point that while OOS, it is impossible to escape Vortex.

Acting mature now, are we? fair enough, I shall rightfully return this favor.

Rep12 Warden main, only been a month so far into For Honor but all I focus on is Warden, so please do take my points as fact, because Warden is all I do.

Apologies for having nicked a part of your thread, but please be so kind as to not be completely ungrateful and throw other people's words right out the window, especially when they know what they're talking about. Not taking it personally, just finding it overly annoying.

I was trying to point out, a Warden spamming SB is easier dealt with than you might think. Warden's top light is his best opener to initiate a vortex, in which case you're forced to sit through a top light, SB, and double lights most often. The SB however is still dodgeable but is situational. Keep top stance to avoid this scenario.
And after you receive double lights, it's far easier to attempt either a dodge or a roll, before the next SB, than right after the next SB. Spamming roll/dodge won't work because with each input command you reset your recovery time. For Honor isn't friendly to those who constantly bash a button, because of strict recovery times.

Some others (in other threads) have mentioned LB's top light (which is 400ms I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) does counter the SB before it connects. Others as well pointed out that LB's hyperarmored shove can at times counter Warden's vortex by halting the next SB, but again, is situational.

Feint heavies often. Quite a few Wardens will wait for you to attack, dodge to the side, SB, and chain a vortex. Feint a heavy, dodge the SB, punish. Also if you dodge a SB, it's a free GB.

Rolling is not a 50/50 and does not reset a fight to neutral. Rolling away and devising a counterattack is a viable tactic for many heroes. Also rolling will cancel a GB from connecting, if Warden attempts a SB into GB. I do recall the devs said something about GB connecting even during roll but so far have neither seen it nor experienced it.

As for the OOS state, most heroes, if not all, are very vulnerable when OOS. If a Warden is OOS, he can be easily grabbed and shoved to the ground with LB. LB's bashes also deplete stamina, making it even harder for the Warden to recover. Warden has no stamina-drain tactics other than his SB. Which does not deplete stamina as much as LB's bash, effectively making LB a better counter-attacker.

@ChechenOverlord that thread has less use than this one. More whiners on there. And the few who said it's an L2P issue are probably right. It was funny to read through.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 07:18 PM
<snip>


Thank you, that was a well crafted response.
Top light for Law is 500ms. Now if the Warden cancels the bash into a guardbreak, yes, it does stop it. But that's not the problem here, the problem is that it is still not fast enough for another uncancelled bash, neither is a shove. These tools stop a Shoulder Bash from starting, but the problem is what to do after you've gotten bashed once, and he goes for another bash. Lawbringer can't use his bash to counter unless the Warden screws up by using a heavy or cancels into a guardbreak

Your point of not mashing the dodge might come in useful for me, perhaps I was mashing it repeatedly because it works wonders when counterguardbreaking.

The reason I keep emphasizing bash as being the first hit, and not the double light, is because there was a similar situation with Centurion. With a Centurion heavy chain, each heavy had a certain amount of stagger, and if both heavies hit, the uncharged punch was guaranteed (against non-Assassins). If one heavy was blocked or just didn't hit, the punch was not guaranteed. This was changed when Cent got nerfed to no longer guarantee that punch.
Similarly, I think that in the case of a non-Assassin class against Warden, having the bash and double light both hit would give enough combined stagger to make a super tight window that most players are not able to get out of. I really just want something else besides rolling to be a viable counter to the move, as you can easily dodge out of the other bashes even if you've already gotten hit once.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 07:26 PM
Thank you, that was a well crafted response.
Top light for Law is 500ms. Now if the Warden cancels the bash into a guardbreak, yes, it does stop it. But that's not the problem here, the problem is that it is still not fast enough for another uncancelled bash, neither is a shove. These tools stop a Shoulder Bash from starting, but the problem is what to do after you've gotten bashed once, and he goes for another bash. Lawbringer can't use his bash to counter unless the Warden screws up by using a heavy or cancels into a guardbreak

Your point of not mashing the dodge might come in useful for me, perhaps I was mashing it repeatedly because it works wonders when counterguardbreaking.

The reason I keep emphasizing bash as being the first hit, and not the double light, is because there was a similar situation with Centurion. With a Centurion heavy chain, each heavy had a certain amount of stagger, and if both heavies hit, the uncharged punch was guaranteed (against non-Assassins). If one heavy was blocked or just didn't hit, the punch was not guaranteed. This was changed when Cent got nerfed to no longer guarantee that punch.
Similarly, I think that in the case of a non-Assassin class against Warden, having the bash and double light both hit would give enough combined stagger to make a super tight window that most players are not able to get out of. I really just want something else besides rolling to be a viable counter to the move, as you can easily dodge out of the other bashes even if you've already gotten hit once.

No problem. Likewise, I enjoyed a calm and constructive reply. And thanks for the tidbit concerning LB's top light.

Mashing CGB works, and only with CGB, as with P2P latency, there will almost always be some delays as to when exactly your opponent connected a GB, so pressing the GB button only once is unlikely to guarantee a counter. Mashing CGB until you visibly shove back your opponent on your screen is the best way.

But definitely avoid mashing dodge/roll. That input is tied to recovery solely on your own character and will henceforth impede your combat performance with queued recoveries.

Centurion is deadlier in this. Centurion has more bashes and the charged punch is a guaranteed knockdown. Not to mention, Centurion is an excellent stamina drain hero. And most of his bashes cause stagger. The uncharged punch is almost always guaranteed and they almost always followup with a GB, at which point it's your best window to break his chain before he then knocks you down and lands an Eagle's Talon.

Warden's double lights aren't much of a stagger factor, most of his stagger is from the SB. Note if fully charged, the SB guarantees a lot of things, but that's another discussion. Warden can only do so much against ranged heroes, as well. Keeping an optimal distance and countering all his vortex attempts will easily shut him down. Also keep most of your guard in top stance.

LB isn't the only hero to need to resort to rolling, other heroes who don't have side dodge attacks also need to resort to it, and actually, the worst matchup to a Warden is another Warden. If two Wardens meet, and one of them starts vortexing, the other has no real option other than rolling and breaking the chain. Dodging is situational because both Wardens have same timings and same recoveries. That doesn't cancel counterattack maneuvers though. Rolling away and throwing a zone, feinting game on, punishing a whiff.... it all goes from there.

I would happily help you in person but unfortunately I'm on console.

KotoKuraken
12-06-2017, 07:37 PM
<snip>


I'm actually on both XB1 and PC. Though I won't be able to get on until tomorrow.

However, thanks for the points. I'll keep trying them out. The whole point of this, though, is that I wanted to see if there was any other way to get out of that specific situation other than rolling. It's something I and some friends have had a problem with against Warden's since February. While not originally as Lawbringer, it's been a problem while playing characters such as Warden, Conq, and Warlord, but I thought LB might have been able to use at least one of his tools to get out of it other than rolling.

bob333e
12-06-2017, 07:47 PM
Hard luck, I'm on PS4.

As a Warden, I still have a problem against other Wardens, and against Raider's stunning tap into zone. Because in both cases, rolling away is often a better outcome than dodging. In the case of Raider, you have to parry his zone without the stance widget. Rolling away is very situational and most times won't work as you're still recovering from the tap. It all depends how fast the Raider you're facing is. And let's not forget half your stamina is gone.

Warlord's headbutt is fast but guarantees nothing short of maybe a quick light stab that deals small damage. It's like Gladiator's toestab, almost always guaranteed and very hard to react to, but still rewards nothing other than a small poke. It's only deadly if you're OOS, because it results in a knockdown.

Conqueror is a separate debate. Most Conqs I've met were easily dispatched, but I've also met some Conqs whose defense was near impossible to open up. I admired how they played the Conq. Additionally, Conq is receiving a rework, so we'll see how that turns out.

Godspeed, practice often against Wardens. You'll eventually land it right. I've had huge issues with Shaman on S4 release, she shuts down most of Warden's kit. The more I practiced, the easier I countered her.