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View Full Version : Raider isnít OP but........



Dasteel1974
12-02-2017, 05:24 AM
Stunning tap is. Sorry, but it is bs how much stamina that one hit drains. Win or lose I really donít care. But to have something completely wipe you out in 1 stupid little move is nuts. And if you go to the ground right after, well hello 2 heavies that take a huge chunk of health. So his charge takes half or a little more and tap takes even more. No stamina drain should be that severe. And something else, if he is out of stamina he shouldnít be able to tackle you and knee you in the face. That is utter bullsh*t.

mrmistark
12-02-2017, 06:07 AM
Yeah, heís easily the most cheesy character. One charge takes almost all you stamina, and most cases does. When oos his zone becomes a 50/50 to parry or not. I almost always just eat the zone, because if they get either parry or GB you after you auto lost due to a free heavy and no stamina and a restart on exhaustion recovery.

Baturai
12-02-2017, 06:57 AM
i always loose becuz of his huge Stamina drain potential.

BarbeQMichael
12-03-2017, 09:47 AM
Stunning tap is op? If you see him going for side heavy, don't parry it, and you can block or even parry the tap. And so you just won the raider as thats his only move.

Arekonator
12-03-2017, 10:01 AM
Not so easy since he can do it with unblockable zone and go between them freely. Because in-chain zone does ridiculous damage, you kinda need to parry.
Its all mindgames, depending if he gets into your head or not.
I woudnt mind if stun tap drained less stamina but i dont really mind either way.

bob333e
12-03-2017, 09:08 PM
Zone feint into tap and GB into charge then free unblockable is all Raider has, honestly. Most Raider players I see do this. His normal lights and heavies are easily read otherwise. Though when you see him starting the unblockable, if you're unsure whether he's going to feint into tap or not, dodging is your best bet. It's essentially a parry bait punish.

Dasteel1974
12-03-2017, 10:19 PM
When that one move depleted you totally in one shot, it is stupidly OP. And all he has? Hardly. He has a 1 hit parry kill. If he parryís you, he can then carry you all the way actions a screen and throw you from a ledge. The fact is, that him hitting you 1 time with a stun shouldnt completely drain you. His attacks are powerful and if you go to the ground, go ahead and wave bye bye to half your health. Then you have to stand up and figure out which he is doing next. Feint, tap or unblockable. And you have to decide this while you are standing up as he will have started his unblockable on you that can be cancelled, feinted, continued or turned into tap again. It is a joke.

bananaflow2017
12-04-2017, 08:50 AM
I think there are actually 2 things that make the Raider to one of the strongest characters in this game.
1. He has got the strongest gankability.
He just appears from out of ur screen runs with u into a wall and meanwhile u r eating 2-3 heavies from his mate what a basicly an instant death.
2. OOS punishment: he punishes u with a heavy and a zone.... only zerk is stronger.

Alregard
12-04-2017, 09:28 AM
You forgot the dodge+GB. An insanly strong move!

bananaflow2017
12-04-2017, 11:03 AM
You forgot the dodge+GB. An insanly strong move!

Sorry i forgot about this. That also means he can cgb during a dodge...

strikes91
12-04-2017, 11:18 AM
So let's say they nerf it. What is the raider left whit?

bananaflow2017
12-04-2017, 11:49 AM
So let's say they nerf it. What is the raider left whit?

Thats the problem every strong character has... there is allways that 1 skill making him
really strong. Just imagine a pk without fast lights, an orochi without double lights, a warden without shoulder bash, s lawbringer without shove etc. No just nerfing is no solution. Meanwhile imo there shouldnt be big adjustments until the turtle meta is not fixed. The strong characters are strong because of 2 reasons: they have a skill that "Breaks" the turtle or they profit of turteling...
And this is what makes raiders strong in 1v1. He just turtles u like hell. He needs maybe 1 parry to her you OOS. He parries you then a gb is coming and thats it. From this point u only need a to bait out a parry with your zone and u will get a heavy +zone what is incredibly strong.
So the problem is not raider being op himself. It's a combination of his kit +turteling. Not to mention that every parry is a high risk of getting ledged by him.
Sometimes it's not really possible to see that coming with the distance he can run with you.

BarbeQMichael
12-04-2017, 11:50 AM
You forgot the dodge+GB. An insanly strong move!

How does this work, as in game mechanics? If I play raider, most of the time when I dodge I am unable to cgb just like with other chars, but sometimes it seems to work. Is it that he only has slightly lower recovery so in some cases he can cgb (if the opponent waits too long before doing the gb), hardcoded that he could indeed gb during animation or how?

Charmzzz
12-04-2017, 11:58 AM
Have to agree on most Points here. Raider's mixup game is one of the strongest right now, together with CGB on Dodge, huge Stamina drain, Animation lock move, ledge potential like LB and WL, one of the best OOS punishes and stunning tap make him S-Tier imo. I see alot of them in higher matchmaking Tiers and they are a real pain to face, even more than Shaman's / LB's.

PDXGorechild
12-04-2017, 04:33 PM
Yep gotta agree with OP. He's better than most classes and has plenty of options, more than most of the OG cast at least. I guess we gotta see where the reworks take all the other classes, cause if it's up to his level then there's nothing to complain about.

Personally I don't see why a couple of classes have insane stamina drain (Radier, cent) whilst others have none, outside of the pathetic amount drained by GB > Kick/punch or whatever. Pair this with the fact that they also have crowd control mechanisms, unblockables etc and it just serves to highlight how under-equipped all of the old, neglected classes really are.

MetalDevil19
12-04-2017, 06:57 PM
From my experience fighting Raiders.... theres a point and time when it starts getting pretty predictable, and manageable to counter attack it.

Alregard
12-04-2017, 08:46 PM
How does this work, as in game mechanics? If I play raider, most of the time when I dodge I am unable to cgb just like with other chars, but sometimes it seems to work. Is it that he only has slightly lower recovery so in some cases he can cgb (if the opponent waits too long before doing the gb), hardcoded that he could indeed gb during animation or how?

Havent played Raider a long time, but
I am pretty sure it works like this. You dodge and do the gb input already, you get gbd, now you can cgb! If you just dodge, you cant cgb... I havent played Raider for a long time.

UbiInsulin
12-04-2017, 08:58 PM
Stunning tap is. Sorry, but it is bs how much stamina that one hit drains. Win or lose I really donít care. But to have something completely wipe you out in 1 stupid little move is nuts. And if you go to the ground right after, well hello 2 heavies that take a huge chunk of health. So his charge takes half or a little more and tap takes even more. No stamina drain should be that severe. And something else, if he is out of stamina he shouldnít be able to tackle you and knee you in the face. That is utter bullsh*t.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the severity of Stunning Tap's stamina drain. I can let the team know there are some concerns about this.

Mtcmnkk
12-04-2017, 09:08 PM
I think there are actually 2 things that make the Raider to one of the strongest characters in this game.
1. He has got the strongest gankability.
He just appears from out of ur screen runs with u into a wall and meanwhile u r eating 2-3 heavies from his mate what a basicly an instant death.
2. OOS punishment: he punishes u with a heavy and a zone.... only zerk is stronger.

#1. Wrong. Half the characters have equivalent ganking. Cent gladiator and shaman all have better.

#2. He has a very strong max punish but other characters have equally good kits that level the playing field

Mtcmnkk
12-04-2017, 09:35 PM
Sorry i forgot about this. That also means he can cgb during a dodge...

Yea his one good defensive trait. Other characters have Dodge attacks full block and deflects. The raiders dodge stunning tap is garbage

bob333e
12-05-2017, 02:20 AM
I think the whole point about stunning tap is to drain stamina; otherwise if it gets nerfed, it'd just be a slap on the wrist compared to the rest of his moves. A big downgrade on Raider.

My issue with Raider, is that he can carry/charge you after parrying you, even when he's OOS. He shouldn't be able to run you around if he's OOS.

Otherwise I'm fine with Raider. He's very counterable. It's a matter of response time / reaction time and reading his UB feint into tap, or the flashing light of the UB to parry it.

Concerning ledging, it's not Raider's fault; it's the over-abundance of ledges everywhere.

Dasteel1974
12-05-2017, 03:32 AM
No character should be able to still attack you like Raider does whole OOS. Garbage. Donít need ledges on Geyser board. People talk about Centurion but if he knocks you down, he does a pounce for 30. Raider knocks you to the ground you are losing more than twice that. As a character he isnít OP, but he has a couple moves that are too strong and shouldnít do as much damage as they do. Only person stronger with hits while on the ground is Berserker. Give him some moves if you wish. But to lose 80-90 damage in 2 hits is stupid.

Mtcmnkk
12-05-2017, 04:54 AM
No character should be able to still attack you like Raider does whole OOS. Garbage. Donít need ledges on Geyser board. People talk about Centurion but if he knocks you down, he does a pounce for 30. Raider knocks you to the ground you are losing more than twice that. As a character he isnít OP, but he has a couple moves that are too strong and shouldnít do as much damage as they do. Only person stronger with hits while on the ground is Berserker. Give him some moves if you wish. But to lose 80-90 damage in 2 hits is stupid.

Two with raider or six with Warden take your pick

mrmistark
12-05-2017, 05:43 AM
I think the whole point about stunning tap is to drain stamina; otherwise if it gets nerfed, it'd just be a slap on the wrist compared to the rest of his moves. A big downgrade on Raider.

My issue with Raider, is that he can carry/charge you after parrying you, even when he's OOS. He shouldn't be able to run you around if he's OOS.

Otherwise I'm fine with Raider. He's very counterable. It's a matter of response time / reaction time and reading his UB feint into tap, or the flashing light of the UB to parry it.

Concerning ledging, it's not Raider's fault; it's the over-abundance of ledges everywhere.

This exactly. I think the tap is, eh, I wonít say OP, maybe the drain may be a little over tuned just a tad, but again, itís one of his only mix ups. The parry into charge for instant throw-> heavy-> zone mix- up is too strong honestly.

ATTACK-BEST CASE PUNISHMENT SCENARIO
Eat zone- take zone in chain damage, recover to neutral

Try to parry- in turn get parried for 2nd free heavy and zone in chain (9/10 times death)

Get hit with stunning tap- stamina drain, tap damage

Gb into another charge- back to 0 on exhaustion recovery, another heavy attack into zone mix-up


As you can see your best bet is to hold guard to side to try to convince them that youíll parry (they may cancel waiting for you to try to parry best case scenario leaving you at neutral) and then move guard on top upon reaction and wait for the CGB. That being said though, that means that you have to be prepared for 5 viable moves for the mix-up if you include hard cancel into lights too. The only other character to have this many on an unblockable is Kensei, and his is a chain finisher whoís mix ups are not even half as strong as they donít give any sort of OOS entrapment not to mention all of this stemmed from one move: GB for charge. Iím surprised you are more worried about the tap.

Arekonator
12-05-2017, 05:55 AM
Wait what? He cant get a heavy on you except OOS side/back throw or wall stagger. The charge throw guarantees only normal zone which does less damage than average heavy and finishes the chain.

bananaflow2017
12-05-2017, 06:45 AM
#1. Wrong. Half the characters have equivalent ganking. Cent gladiator and shaman all have better.

#2. He has a very strong max punish but other characters have equally good kits that level the playing field


#1 half of the characters can only stagger u for a short time. U also can use revenge when when u get toe stabbed them for example. But when a Raider catches u with his stampede u even cant use revenge for sometimes more than 3 seconds. That grants 2-3 hevies for your mate and thats ur dead. Only shugoki has got something simular. But shugokis hug is more predictable cuz he has to prepare it for like a half year. Even shaman isnt that strong. In a normal gank situation it's hard die her to her bleeding on u. Also all the unblockables from cent, glad etc are getting interrupted when they get hit. Often u cant finish ur atacks cuz a teammate hits u from anywhere ( I'm looking at u kensei). Raider got hyperarmor so u cant stop him....

#2 this allways denpends on what you are looking at. In 4v4 ? Lawbringer for example got a kit that is relatable strong. The other 2 Meta heroes (nobushi and zerker) are so strong because they profit of the other 2 characters kit and are strong in group fights (heavy target switch repeat)

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 08:21 AM
#1. Wrong. Half the characters have equivalent ganking. Cent gladiator and shaman all have better.

#2. He has a very strong max punish but other characters have equally good kits that level the playing field


Yea his one good defensive trait. Other characters have Dodge attacks full block and deflects. The raiders dodge stunning tap is garbage


#1 half of the characters can only stagger u for a short time. U also can use revenge when when u get toe stabbed them for example. But when a Raider catches u with his stampede u even cant use revenge for sometimes more than 3 seconds. That grants 2-3 hevies for your mate and thats ur dead. Only shugoki has got something simular. But shugokis hug is more predictable cuz he has to prepare it for like a half year. Even shaman isnt that strong. In a normal gank situation it's hard die her to her bleeding on u. Also all the unblockables from cent, glad etc are getting interrupted when they get hit. Often u cant finish ur atacks cuz a teammate hits u from anywhere ( I'm looking at u kensei). Raider got hyperarmor so u cant stop him....

#2 this allways denpends on what you are looking at. In 4v4 ? Lawbringer for example got a kit that is relatable strong. The other 2 Meta heroes (nobushi and zerker) are so strong because they profit of the other 2 characters kit and are strong in group fights (heavy target switch repeat)

+1 bananaflow2017. Exactly my thoughts. But on #1 you forgot Shinobi Sickle Rain. Complete list of "cutscenes" where you completely lose control and do not recover from the first hit:
- Shinobi Sickle Rain
- Shugoki Demon Embrace
- Centurion Knockdown
- Raider Stampede
- Lawbringer Impale
- Warlord Running Charge

All of these moves would be fine if you would recover after a hit. But the way they are now - they are completely OP in 4v4. I play in a pretty high MMR and I see people abusing Stampede, Impale, Sickle Rain and Demon Embrace all over. Full Teams that really want to win go for Raider, Nobushi, Zerker/Shinobi, LB/Shugoki. It comes down to insane amounts of damage you CANNOT avoid all the time, even when Revenge is ready.

bananaflow2017
12-05-2017, 08:56 AM
+1 bananaflow2017. Exactly my thoughts. But on #1 you forgot Shinobi Sickle Rain. Complete list of "cutscenes" where you completely lose control and do not recover from the first hit:
- Shinobi Sickle Rain
- Shugoki Demon Embrace
- Centurion Knockdown
- Raider Stampede
- Lawbringer Impale
- Warlord Running Charge

All of these moves would be fine if you would recover after a hit. But the way they are now - they are completely OP in 4v4. I play in a pretty high MMR and I see people abusing Stampede, Impale, Sickle Rain and Demon Embrace all over. Full Teams that really want to win go for Raider, Nobushi, Zerker/Shinobi, LB/Shugoki. It comes down to insane amounts of damage you CANNOT avoid all the time, even when Revenge is ready.

Same here! I meet teams like this very often.... And this is just ridiculus.
I think the Raider and the lb are mostly picked cuz bis stampede and impale are a little more reliable. Also the Raider has got a big teamfight potential outside his stampede. When u just light 1 enemy and zone another u can sometimes hit up to 3 enemies. This is such an ultimately strong move cuz only the targeted player can parry it (such a ******** mechanic...).
And i meet this teams in normal Xbox games during a minday evening. I know nobody likes mindays, but what kind of day did u have behind you to Play Stuff like that?

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 09:48 AM
This is such an ultimately strong move cuz only the targeted player can parry it (such a ******** mechanic...).

That is the worst about it. The combo-zone does what, 50 Damage? In a super-wide arc? And you cannot parry unless you are targeted? Nerf it... Or give me, finally, a chance to parry EVERY attack that would hit me. I do not want to and cannot dodge all of this bullsht in a 4v4 mess of attacks flying all over the place. I can parry these moves reliably, if I had the chance to do it.

BarbeQMichael
12-05-2017, 10:20 AM
This exactly. I think the tap is, eh, I won’t say OP, maybe the drain may be a little over tuned just a tad, but again, it’s one of his only mix ups. The parry into charge for instant throw-> heavy-> zone mix- up is too strong honestly.

ATTACK-BEST CASE PUNISHMENT SCENARIO
Eat zone- take zone in chain damage, recover to neutral

Try to parry- in turn get parried for 2nd free heavy and zone in chain (9/10 times death)

Get hit with stunning tap- stamina drain, tap damage

Gb into another charge- back to 0 on exhaustion recovery, another heavy attack into zone mix-up


As you can see your best bet is to hold guard to side to try to convince them that you’ll parry (they may cancel waiting for you to try to parry best case scenario leaving you at neutral) and then move guard on top upon reaction and wait for the CGB. That being said though, that means that you have to be prepared for 5 viable moves for the mix-up if you include hard cancel into lights too. The only other character to have this many on an unblockable is Kensei, and his is a chain finisher who’s mix ups are not even half as strong as they don’t give any sort of OOS entrapment not to mention all of this stemmed from one move: GB for charge. I’m surprised you are more worried about the tap.

Raider does not get heavy from parry, guard break or throw (unless you are oos when you fall to ground just like with other heroes, not when you are not). He gets either zone (28dmg) or if he can carry you to wall, a knee to face and light (15+15=30)

Charmzzz
12-05-2017, 10:44 AM
Raider does not get heavy from parry, guard break or throw (unless you are oos when you fall to ground just like with other heroes, not when you are not). He gets either zone (28dmg) or if he can carry you to wall, a knee to face and light (15+15=30)

Do not forget that carrying you to a wall and kicking with knee drains alot of stamina and dazes you - Raider can instantly start his mixup guess game with the probably feinted zone into stunning tap into comboed zone...

Edit: and surely he gets a guaranteed GB after parry (heavy or light) on low range Characters! Also he does get a heavy after a light parry guaranteed.

BarbeQMichael
12-05-2017, 11:40 AM
Do not forget that carrying you to a wall and kicking with knee drains alot of stamina and dazes you - Raider can instantly start his mixup guess game with the probably feinted zone into stunning tap into comboed zone...

Edit: and surely he gets a guaranteed GB after parry (heavy or light) on low range Characters! Also he does get a heavy after a light parry guaranteed.

Sure he gets the gb out of heavy parry but it still nets you only throw or zone. Light parries are of course different. My description was poor, I meant that he does not get the heavy out of following: (heavy) parry, gb or throw.

BTTrinity
12-05-2017, 03:20 PM
Stunning tap is. Sorry, but it is bs how much stamina that one hit drains. Win or lose I really donít care. But to have something completely wipe you out in 1 stupid little move is nuts. And if you go to the ground right after, well hello 2 heavies that take a huge chunk of health. So his charge takes half or a little more and tap takes even more. No stamina drain should be that severe. And something else, if he is out of stamina he shouldnít be able to tackle you and knee you in the face. That is utter bullsh*t.

My only issue with him is the stamina drain, his charge should only drain stamina on a wallsplat.... Not while hes running with you.

toninhocaganera
12-06-2017, 07:31 PM
I'm only playing with the Vikings, I'm rep 16 with Raider and honestly ... I do not believe they have problems with stuning tap ... maybe if you're a beginner and do not know Raider's dirty game, but whenever I play against opponents more experienced rarely the stunning tap lands, I honestly find Raider the Viking easier to kill. The deal is as follows, do not try to parry side attacks just defend and be always ready to parry the stinning tap, there is no mystery. as for the zone attack ... simply dodge so you avoid the attack and the possible stunning tap. the problem is that they are complaining and soon Ubi (who does not know how to take decisions) ends up killing the character exactly as they did with Warlord and meanwhile the PK, cents aramusha and shaman remain OP.

and closing, if the Raider is as strong as they speak because I do not see him winning tournaments?

The_B0G_
12-06-2017, 07:58 PM
Stamina being drained from being carried is still the dumbest thing they gave to the raider. Carry a 300 pound Shugoki 25 feet and see who's exhausted.

Raider is pretty cheesy right now. Still hate the centurion the most though, one parry by a wall a 90% of health is gone. Still hate him more than the two new heroes.

BarbeQMichael
12-06-2017, 08:03 PM
I'm only playing with the Vikings, I'm rep 16 with Raider and honestly ... I do not believe they have problems with stuning tap ... maybe if you're a beginner and do not know Raider's dirty game, but whenever I play against opponents more experienced rarely the stunning tap lands, I honestly find Raider the Viking easier to kill. The deal is as follows, do not try to parry side attacks just defend and be always ready to parry the stinning tap, there is no mystery. as for the zone attack ... simply dodge so you avoid the attack and the possible stunning tap. the problem is that they are complaining and soon Ubi (who does not know how to take decisions) ends up killing the character exactly as they did with Warlord and meanwhile the PK, cents aramusha and shaman remain OP.

and closing, if the Raider is as strong as they speak because I do not see him winning tournaments?

The Raider is indeed a newbie stomper, as seen from the alpha/beta stats where he got the highest winrate due to people not knowing how to parry his UB and ledging ability. But against experienced players, he is the pegged one as he has 2 abilities; feint into tap which gets parried most of the time, and carry people, which requires parry and gb.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-10-2017, 02:53 AM
My only issue with him is the stamina drain, his charge should only drain stamina on a wallsplat.... Not while hes running with you.

Agreed. If anything, he is the one that should get stamina drain because he has to carry you not the other way around. If we are to be realistic. :D

Dasteel1974
12-10-2017, 08:18 AM
Stamina being drained from being carried is still the dumbest thing they gave to the raider. Carry a 300 pound Shugoki 25 feet and see who's exhausted.

Raider is pretty cheesy right now. Still hate the centurion the most though, one parry by a wall a 90% of health is gone. Still hate him more than the two new heroes.


Not even close to true. Even if you are playing another Centurion or Shenobi, Wall Splat is only taking half. Other players it will take 2-3 wall splats to kill.