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Scragbat
04-15-2004, 11:28 AM
...do they need changing?

I don't mean how they appear but when they kick in.
Do all humans have the same tolerance levels to positive and negative G? Common sense tells me that all people are different and some people can withstand more than others.
There have been times when I'm banking hard in a turn fight and the dreaded tunnel vision has started to kick in and I've said to myself 'Oh come on! I can take more than that!'.
Of course I don't really know what I could take because I have never faced these real-life fighter pilot conditions. The only G forces I've experienced are on roller coasters and I can handle them ok LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Should FB have a simple on/off setting for 'blackout/redout' or should there be a slider setting for tolerence levels? I'm aware that if this was set by the individual then everybody online would set the tolerance level to the highest setting. Probably not the best idea but I'm not sure how else this could be changed for the better.
I've just always been a little uncomfortable with the game/sim saying that this is my tolerance level and I'd better just get used to it.

Just thinking outloud...
Scrag

http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com/FB/squigsig.gif
Scragbat's Forgotten Battles Virtual Movies (http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com)

[This message was edited by Scragbat on Thu April 15 2004 at 03:48 PM.]

Scragbat
04-15-2004, 11:28 AM
...do they need changing?

I don't mean how they appear but when they kick in.
Do all humans have the same tolerance levels to positive and negative G? Common sense tells me that all people are different and some people can withstand more than others.
There have been times when I'm banking hard in a turn fight and the dreaded tunnel vision has started to kick in and I've said to myself 'Oh come on! I can take more than that!'.
Of course I don't really know what I could take because I have never faced these real-life fighter pilot conditions. The only G forces I've experienced are on roller coasters and I can handle them ok LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Should FB have a simple on/off setting for 'blackout/redout' or should there be a slider setting for tolerence levels? I'm aware that if this was set by the individual then everybody online would set the tolerance level to the highest setting. Probably not the best idea but I'm not sure how else this could be changed for the better.
I've just always been a little uncomfortable with the game/sim saying that this is my tolerance level and I'd better just get used to it.

Just thinking outloud...
Scrag

http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com/FB/squigsig.gif
Scragbat's Forgotten Battles Virtual Movies (http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com)

[This message was edited by Scragbat on Thu April 15 2004 at 03:48 PM.]

Willey
04-15-2004, 01:52 PM
I found it very strange that redout kicks in at everything below 0G, even if it's -0,0001g. As far as I observed, blackout kicks in at 5G.
Instead of a tolerance slider I'd rather have stamina. You can't hold 5Gs for a minute or two. After that you'll probably will blackout even at 3G. The longer you pull some Gs, the more it drains your stamina, and this would affect your turn perfomance very much. I think it would even be realistic to make the control planes getting harder and harder as your stamina level drops. To "refill" the energy, you would have to fly calm for a while. A small red bar similar to the health point bars in RPGs or Shooters in the Speedbar could also give the player enough info on his stamina status. With such a feature you'd have to think twice about every pull you make. It would definately add to game, and it's not an ego shooter stuff like it seems to be. It's realism. I just hope the BoB will incorporate that, I don't think the FB engine can handle that, it won't be added here anyway. Any new feature proposals go into BoB for quite a time now.

XyZspineZyX
04-15-2004, 03:57 PM
Redout effects do occur more quickly at negative G than do blackouts at positive G.

Half a negative G can begin bursting blood vessels in the eyes and causing quite a bit of discomfort in the head and sinuses. I've heard many accounts of redout ending with "no way I'll ever consciously do THAT again", while blackout/greyout/GLOC is done routinely.

It's a different kind of effect for redout, and the thresholds for positive and negative G have NOTHING to do with simply which side of "one G" you're on.

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 04:12 PM
Willey:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The longer you pull some Gs, the more it drains your [Male Dogfighter] stamina...

...Its realism... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* we can always try this again, and again as needed...Stamina Reduction follows...

(1) Long flying times (invoked by setting fuel to 25% in DF servers depending on aircraft range)
(2) High speed through air (more bumpy at low altitude than high, high wing loading helps)
(3) High speed stick~n~rudder forces (call it BnZ Stamina)
(4) Low speed Aerobatics (call it TnB Stamina)
(5) Pilot Skill

The last one, pilot skill, one can think of as a non~swimmer wading into the ocean and Panicking. PANIC tends to exhaust one rather quickly and so one "gives up" and slips beneath the water. This is similar to Newbie pilots giving up and flying straight, from exhaustion overpowering their will to fight--something pilot skill can help overcome.

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

"Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills. Most likely, the "ally" pilots lost BnZ Stamina faster than Japanese aerobatic pilot lost TnB Stamina. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

04-15-2004, 04:15 PM
Stamina-based G tolerance would be a wonderful improvement.

-1 G is not a problem. It's only equivalent to hanging upside down. If your eyeballs are popping at -1 G then you've got serious health problems.

Redout should not begin occuring at 0 G. The worst that usually happens during minor negative G pushes is bonking your helmet on the canopy. Remember to tighten your seatbelt!

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 04:24 PM
Yes, that too. I have to push very hard on joystick to get Redout.

Willey:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I found it very strange that redout kicks in at everything below 0G, even if it's -0,0001g.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>mmmm. Interesting. which plane? Never happens in the ones I fly until I push hard forward.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Scragbat
04-15-2004, 05:03 PM
Stamina based G tolerance sounds like a great idea. Better than my slider suggestion (all I could think of).

Nice feedback chaps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com/FB/squigsig.gif
Scragbat's Forgotten Battles Virtual Movies (http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com)

ajafoofoo
04-15-2004, 05:34 PM
Everyone DON'T hang upside down, your eyeballs will pop out!

Fehler
04-15-2004, 06:16 PM
Dang, I stood on my head before reading all of this, and now I have no eyes...

And Lexx, the only gravitational effect that flying straight, for 1 minute or 72 hours, has on a body is 1G; commonly mis-called your body weight. You might want to read some Isaac Newton sometime. Those laws might not apply to tele-tubbies, but I bet they apply to humans.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Scragbat
04-15-2004, 06:35 PM
Staying on the subject of realism for G effects. If I'm pulling back on the stick and I'm starting to blackout, I will try and counteract the effect by reducing throttle and pushing forward on the stick to force a negative and reduce the G-force. However, the blackout phase seems to last quite a while even if I have managed to level the aircraft out.
Is this right? Does it take the body this long to recover from a G-force induced blackout?

Also, when entering a 'redout' would you literally 'see red'. Is this how the distinction between the two forces are represented in the game or does this happen in real life. I know that in negative G the blood vessels in the eye can burst but would this make you see red before losing conciousness?

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Scragbat's Forgotten Battles Virtual Movies (http://www.appy55.dsl.pipex.com)

[This message was edited by Scragbat on Thu April 15 2004 at 05:44 PM.]

TX-EcoDragon
04-15-2004, 08:06 PM
It is certainly true that individuals have different G tolerance, but in truth your G tolerance changes every time you fly. . . I notice that if I don't get much sleep my tolerance is reduced, if I am feeling tired, or a little under the weather, then there is a notable decrease. With physiological conditioning, weight training, and proper execution of the M-1/L-1 type straining maneuvers an individual will increase their +G tolerance, and if they maintain frequent exposures, and their fitness routine, they can expect to increase or at least maintain that general level of tolerance. I know many pilots who feel they loose their G tolerance after only a few days of not flying their routines. . . I am not sure that there is much truth to that, as science suggests that an elevated tolerance only occurs with a more constant exposure than can be had while flying, though I think it is worth mentioning. They are talking about the absolute maximal levels that a human can tolerate though, and my routines usually are no higher than +8G/-4 . . . while theirs may be up to +12/-8 for shot times, I trust that the experience of these pilots is worth citing more than any other research.

The conclusion here is that everyone's G tolerance changes. . even from day to day, and there is really no good way to model this in a sim. . . short of allowing you to slowly pull greater Gs over the duration of a campaign or something, and this wouldn't really work for the df arena.

The blackouts in FB are reasonably well done, though GILOC usually takes a greater hit on the pilot than it does in FB (in other words, recovery takes longer in real world instances). The "redouts" on the other hand are not much like anything in the real world. For one thing, the red color, well let's just say that neither I nor any of my fellow aerobatic pilots that I speak with have had any such visual effects from negative G at any level. There are suggestions that the bursting of blood vessels of the eyes, or perhaps the lower lid of the eye lifting are to blame, though these events are not terribly common, and the bursting of blood vessels in the eyes (which I have seen) apparently don't always result in anything to being seen by the pilot during the event. In addition, the value of the -G that induces this in the sim seems quite low. Simply rolling inverted is enough in the sim. While I think -2 or -3 G might be a better place for this visualization to occur. Despite these points I think that the visualization of the redout is a fair way to model the sensation that higher levels of negative Gs have, and there is no better way in a sim, though the visual representation is not realistic in and of itself.

My girlfriend is writing a little report; using me a reference made her need for an interview much easier so she did it on this particular topic! This is the rough draft:
http://www.txsquadron.com/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=1498

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Member-Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

First Slot Pilot Aircraft #4 of the Virtual Haute-Voltige Team
http://www.vhvt.com/

http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.calaggieflyers.com

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg

Fehler
04-15-2004, 08:29 PM
EcoDragon, boy am I glad you have decided to chime in on a "G" post.

From your aerobatic experiences, can you say whether or not a pilot could pull 3-5 G's for an extended period of time, and in doing so, would the resulting fatigue allow him to immediately go into more high G maneuvers without peoblems?

My experience is very limited, as I was only able to fly in a performance aircraft for about 10 minutes as a ride along. (Part of an award I had received, the aircraft was an F-15) But that 10 minutes left me with a lasting impression.

My question, as stated in another thread, is this. Is it reasonable or not to expect a pilot to be able to pull some of the countless rolls and high G turns, on the edge of blackout, like we see in the game, and be able to do so successively, without any problems?

If it is, than I am totally off base with my request mentioned earlier. If it is not, how would you, as a real aerobatic pilot, feel about a certain amount of penality for pulling continuous high stress maneuvers?

If you could read the "Future Requests: Stamina and head moving" thread and comment, I would greatly appreciate it.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 08:58 PM
Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lexx, the only gravitational effect that flying straight, for 1 minute or 72 hours, has on a body is 1G;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*sigh* we can try this again...Stamina Reduction follows...

(1) Long flying times (invoked by setting fuel to 25% in DF servers depending on aircraft range)
(2) High speed through air (more bumpy at low altitude than high, high wing loading helps)
(3) High speed stick~n~rudder forces (call it BnZ Stamina)
(4) Low speed Aerobatics (call it TnB or "Fehler" Stamina)
(5) Pilot Skill

The last one, pilot skill, one can think of as a non~swimmer wading into the ocean and Panicking. PANIC tends to exhaust one rather quickly and so one "gives up" and slips beneath the water. This is similar to Newbie pilots giving up and flying straight, from exhaustion overpowering their will to fight--something pilot skill can help overcome.

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

"Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills. Most likely, the "ally" pilots lost BnZ Stamina faster than Japanese aerobatic pilot lost TnB Stamina. (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

=============================================

Your other post in the other thread was very interesting, an attempt to quantify the discussion. We shall pick up there if you wish, as this is a more specific "Gee" thread. My point is that pilots tire of more than just "Gee" or pulling turns--the stuff we have listed here can make a pilot less able to pull your "Gees" if that interests you any.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
04-15-2004, 10:37 PM
OMG Lexx, I am beginning to think you are ADD, LOL!

Stamina loss CAUSED BY CONSTANT EXPOSURE TO HIGH G MANEUVERS is not the same as pilot fatigue caused by being up too late watching tele-tubbies, or flying in bumpy air... sheesh!

Are you trying to bait me over and over?

We are talking apples and oranges. Two different subjects entirely. How can you model how tired a pilot is in a game? There is nothing in the sim to base your modelling off of. You can model in fatigue CAUSED BY CONSTANT EXPOSURE TO HIGH G MANEUVERS in this sim because G stress is already in the game, remember those blackouts and redouts?

Just because I said I wanted something to get from here to there, doesnt mean I am talking science fiction. You are trying to design a futuristic hyperspace timewarp machine, when all I am asking for is a plain old round wheel. LOL

You are killing me! ROFLMAO!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 10:42 PM
We seem to agree that an exhausted pilot may be less able to pull sustained gees. If we cannot examine the causes of pilots getting exhausted, beyond "pulling gees" alone, we may risk losing our claim of wanting "realism."



Lets try again until we are willing to discuss this...Stamina Reduction follows...

(1) Long flying times (invoked by setting fuel to 25% in DF servers depending on aircraft range)
(2) High speed through air (more bumpy at low altitude than high, high wing loading helps)
(3) High speed stick~n~rudder forces (call it BnZ Stamina)
(4) Low speed Aerobatics (call it TnB or "Fehler" Stamina)
(5) Pilot Skill

The last one, pilot skill, one can think of as a non~swimmer wading into the ocean and Panicking. PANIC tends to exhaust one rather quickly and so one "gives up" and slips beneath the water. This is similar to Newbie pilots giving up and flying straight, from exhaustion overpowering their will to fight--something pilot skill can help overcome.

With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

"Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills. Most likely, the "ally" pilots lost BnZ Stamina faster than Japanese aerobatic pilot lost TnB Stamina. (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
04-15-2004, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
We seem to agree that an exhausted pilot may be less able to pull sustained gees. If we cannot examine the causes of pilots getting exhausted, beyond "pulling gees" alone, we may risk losing our claim of wanting "realism."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I guess I can see your point a little.

But some things cant be modelled into a sim. So in your logic, since some things cant be modelled, we shouldnt model anything? Then anything dealing with pilot limitations should not be in the sim. That includes the heavy elevators in dive, heavy ailerons at speed, blackouts, redouts, headshake... Why do we have blackouts if that is different for every single person alive? Well, you get my point. You cant have an "All or nothing" approach whenever it suits you. Its not very logical.

A little more realism is better than no realism.

Again Lexx, I know we are having a little fun at one another here as well. But wouldnt it be cool to have this idea portrayed in the sim?

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 11:57 PM
Fehler:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But wouldnt it be cool to have this idea portrayed in the sim?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes!

But I am still having some problems with these...(just one last time!!)


(1) With one eye working, Saburo Sakai joined a formation of 16 "friendly" Hellcats, and spent the next ~30 minutes turning and looping with each Hellcat BnZ pass, until the Hellcats got bored and went home.

(2) "Ally" BnZ pilots often got bored making ~30 minutes of failed passes at lone Ki~43 pilots flip flopping all over the sky and they went home with no kills.

We must be careful.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

TX-EcoDragon
04-16-2004, 01:29 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fehler:
". . .can you say whether or not a pilot could pull 3-5 G's for an extended period of time, and in doing so, would the resulting fatigue allow him to immediately go into more high G maneuvers without peoblems?"

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/GLOC%20onset%20diagram.jpg



The upper range you mention is above what someone could easily sustain for more than a few seconds. An experienced pilot, expecting the G-loading, and when performing the M-1/L-1 type straining maneuvers could maintain higher loadings for variable amounts of time, but certainly not without effort. The lower range is something that could be sustained for longer durations and by a person of average fitness and training. The above chart assumes that the subject is prepared for the G onset, and approriately responds (as opposed to a passive subject).

Certainly in the sim many situations that virtual pilots recreate are not realistic with regard to pilot physiology. I would just love to see one of those trim on a slider guys thrown into a real fighter! ;-)


"My experience is very limited, as I was only able to fly in a performance aircraft for about 10 minutes as a ride along. (Part of an award I had received, the aircraft was an F-15) But that 10 minutes left me with a lasting impression. "

Wow! The F-15 is sure to leave an impression!

"My question, as stated in another thread, is this. Is it reasonable or not to expect a pilot to be able to pull some of the countless rolls and high G turns, on the edge of blackout, like we see in the game, and be able to do so successively, without any problems?"

I fly sequences at G loadings that are in the range of up to +8/-4 G for most of the manuvers, but the time that the Gs are at these levels is very brief, and my sequnces usually last only about 10 minutes, then a climb for altitude, and then another sequnce. Depending on the aircraft (ie if I have excess power or not) I may fly nearly constant aerobatics for teh 45 minute to an hour long sorties. This is physically challenging, no doubt, but part of the training an aerobatic or combat pilot does is related to coping with this. Of course some people cope better than others. In aerobatic training sessions we might go up 8 or 10 times a day and fly ALOT of acro. . .and and at the end of the day you do feel you've run a marathon, but I don't think that that fatigue is the sort that would play a large role in a combat environment since such constant and frequent G loadings would not happen in a warbord or in a combat engagement. Additionally,in these instances I notice no ill effects while flying unless I was not well prepared to fly (ie hydrated, fed, rested etc). I do however train for up to two hours at a time (usually with just a few minutes to fuel up between each hour) and I can tell you that after a that I certainly feel a bit fatigued for the rest of the day, and sometimes into the next day. This fatigue does reduce my G energy level and some G tolerance on subsequent flights that are back to back.

After more frequent training these (rather slight) feelings of fatigue become less pronounced. On the other hand I know pilots that fly much less strenuous routines than mine (around +4/-0 G), who can only do 20 minutes of total flight time for their "missions" without feeling too exhausted to feel safe. And they train and condition much like I do. . . there are just differences in our physiology. . . and I would hate to have to load up a virtual pilot that had that issue, though it might add a level of realism above the current situation! Though I don't advocate this system simply because I think it would detract from the sim more than contribute, especially for those of us with the good G tolerance. ;-)

There really is a physical demand to this sort of flying that is above what most people would expect of someone "just sitting there". now, if this situation were changed, such that the pilot was already at the elevated stress level that combat would produce, if the pilot had been in the plane for hours already, if the pilot weren't physcially training for the Gs, if the pilot was new, if he had multiple engagements, then I figure that fatigue would certainly wear down his combat effectiveness and capability. (you have heard of the so called "go-pills"?) In actual combat the Gs that would be seen are probably more on the order of +4 to +5 and I dont imagine that there was much negative Gs at all. . . the way we fly in the sim is a tad different than this though.

"If it is, than I am totally off base with my request mentioned earlier. If it is not, how would you, as a real aerobatic pilot, feel about a certain amount of penality for pulling continuous high stress maneuvers?"

I just don't know of a way to improve on the current system that wouldn't require tons of work, while resulting in limited change to the current modeling, perhaps other than to make the aircraft have realistic structural failures. I see some things that just aren't possible being done all the time, and these are the things that really detract from this sim. Many aircraft will shed a wing at 8 Gs, most combat aircraft have a bit greater structural integrity, but not much. If structures were damaged at critical loadings, then I think much of this issue would be eliminated for the online df arena. In a single engagement I think adrenaline would be the primary thing acting on the pilot for the durations that most dogfights actually lasted, the way we fly in the sim, for hours on end, our little virtual pilots would be in sorry shape, if not dead! For coops or single player I think there is more room for the idea you suggest, but I guess I would rather have time spent on flight models, and physics, a let the guys who want to df all day long do there thing without consequence. It is the people who complain about the P-51 blowing up at 15 Gs that entertain me! Few of these aircraft could pull that G loading and come out unscathed, let alone the pilots!( I of course don't think only a few planes should model this. . .feature, so I understand why they take issue with it, but hearing that the planes blow up "all the time" and then hearing that it's at 15 Gs, well, I just hought that was funny.)

"If you could read the "Future Requests: Stamina and head moving" thread and comment, I would greatly appreciate it."

I am not sure I'm of any help to you, but I will do.

also check this out: http://www.vnh.org/



S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

First Slot Pilot Aircraft #4 of the Virtual Haute-Voltige Team
http://www.vhvt.com/


http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg


EDIT to update links since I was just linked back to this thread by a new one.

MatuDa
04-16-2004, 02:39 AM
Ecodragon thanks for the excellent reply http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have some questionss though:

1. How heavy are the controls in the plane you fly?

2. Should a person be able to fly in the verge of blackout for several minutes?

3. In your opinion would the extended heavy maneuvering lessen the treshold for subsequent blackout?

Thanks

warriorbear
04-16-2004, 08:07 AM
Ok, Here is an idea that I like from that other sim I left months ago. A number system that gives you choices:

Vision
G tolerence
Health

You have to make a choice on cewrtain number of each and we take the above average pilot rating and that is the top number.

This number needs to equal from all three areas.

So onr can personally go for stronger Gs but will suffer in vision and health.

warriorbear

PS just an idea for future.

BlackstarUK
04-16-2004, 08:59 AM
I remember reading somewhere that having lost his legs Douglas Bader had better than average G-Tolerance because the blood wasn't being forced into his legs, for obvious reasons, so he could turn quicker.

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ddsflyer
04-16-2004, 11:12 AM
I found from personal experience that I was able to sustain +6G as long as the aircraft I was flying (SF-260) was able to without much discomfort. My personal G limit with early blackout and tunnel vision starts at +8G sustained or +9G much sooner. As airspeed bleeds off the Gs lessen unless I was in a decending spiral where I could maintrain the Gs longer. Sooner or later you run out of either airspeed or altitude or both and cannot sustain appreciable G forces unless you have a very high power to weight ratio aircraft.

Having said that, negative Gs are a different matter. -2G is uncomfortable. -3G is damn uncomfortable. In addition to a nauseating feeling, negative G places great strain on the seat harness system and pain in the shoulder area. The cranial blood pressure effects are profound. I once tried a -4G outside loop........once. Never again. I have great respect for airshow pilots who routinely execute negative G manuvers. There is no physiological manuever you can do to lessen the effects of negative G. You just get used to it and gut it out.

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Scragbat
04-16-2004, 11:35 AM
Thanks to the 'real deal' pilots for contributing their true-life experiences and knowledge to this thread (you know who you are).

It's been a real education and quite fascinating to read. I thank you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It always amazes me knowing that RL pilots like to fly FB when away from their day jobs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~S~
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Willey
04-16-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Willey:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The longer you pull some Gs, the more it drains your [Male Dogfighter] stamina...

...Its realism... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* we can always try this again, and again as needed...Stamina Reduction follows...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I say just TnB??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BTW this board software SUXX!

OK, back again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. There are several things that drain your power. Gs, long flights, hard rudders, even climbing and diving is exhausting (well, I flew once in a A330 as passenger and never had so much ache in the ears). Try pulling out a 109 from a 850 IAS dive. I bet that would drain su much of your stamina that you'd have to fly calm for at least 3 minutes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. It would be easier in a FW 190 that has lighter elevators. Also, those Gs are much more at high speeds. Turnfighting in a Ta-152H at 360 IAS is definately more exhausting than doing so in a slow Gladiator.

mike_espo
04-16-2004, 05:33 PM
I was playing in Virtual Pilots 2 flying the G.50. Saw a I-153 about 1500m below. Dove on him with 0 pitch to get more speed, about 440km/hr. As I was approaching, he maneuvered and I pulled up slightly on the stick, and blacked out. By the time I recovered, he was on my six and I was history. I dont know how many Gs I would be pulling, but at 440km/hr, I don't think I should have blacked out so easily.....

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

Adlerangriff
04-17-2004, 10:48 AM
As you black/red out, your speedbar should become less visible and your controls should be unresponsive.

You can fly right thru these conditions presently. Stamina would be the biggest leap forward in full real play. Getting wounded would have a whole new importance. Heavily wounded would be even more unresponsive.

This game is so great, i fiend for patches we dont even need now! lol!

TX-EcoDragon
04-20-2004, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by MatuDa:
"Ecodragon thanks for the excellent reply http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have some questionss though:

1. How heavy are the controls in the plane you fly?"


I fly many, some are very heavy, some are so light that you can hardly feel the stick. Most modern aerobatic aircraft have aerodynamic counterbalances called spades that reduce the force required to deflect the surface. Aircraft like the Edge 540 or the Extra 300 are pretty much sensitive enough that if you hiccup the plane will respond! The Super Decathlon has spades, but still has rather heavy stick forces. The P-51s I have flown have reasonably light aileron forces, and slightly heavier elevator for an aircraft of it's vintage (without spades of course, but it has smaller surfaces, and uses gap seals). The Pt-17 has light elevator forces and heavy aileron forces, though the Super stearman with ailerons on both top and bottom wing with spades are nice and light comparatively. It all comes down to design, and the purpose of the design.

"2. Should a person be able to fly in the verge of blackout for several minutes?" Not really. For one thing, once the blood pressure leaves your head its not coming back until the G's are reduced. Continue to hold elevated Gs after your straining is no longer effective at elevating bp and restricting blood flow, and you will black out. In this case only a few Gs are enough. If on the other hand you return to normal loadigns for short periods it isn't much problem (and keep in mind that most aircraft can not sustain very high g loadings for long, because induced drag increases substantially with the Gs, so you need lots of power to keep things going)

"3. In your opinion would the extended heavy maneuvering lessen the treshold for subsequent blackout? " That depends on if there is negative G's involved. If there are then ANY negative G will lower your +G tolerance for a short period after the exposure. If it is only +G then fatigue may factor in (it doesnt take long) but your physiological responses are better suited to this. . .you will have increased cardiac output and elevated blood pressure which will help to elevate your +G tolerance somewhat. so to summarize, for the short term the answer is no, but in the longer term, the answer is yes. Fatigue generally sets in after some strenuous flying and at that point your G tolerance will be reduced. All aerobatic pilots I know have a point when they can feel that they are having a harder tiem pulling the same Gs they were at the start of their flying day.

S!
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[This message was edited by TX-EcoDragon on Tue April 20 2004 at 11:14 PM.]

04-20-2004, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scragbat:
However, the blackout phase seems to last quite a while even if I have managed to level the aircraft out.
Is this right? Does it take the body this long to recover from a G-force induced blackout?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, absolutley.

04-20-2004, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fehler:
". . .can you say whether or not a pilot could pull 3-5 G's for an extended period of time, and in doing so, would the resulting fatigue allow him to immediately go into more high G maneuvers without peoblems?"

http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/02/Images/fig2.3.gif



The upper range you mention is above what someone could sustain for more than a few seconds (even when performing the M-1/L-1 type straining maneuvers), the lower range is something that could be sustained for longer durations (though still less than a few minutes). The above chart assumes that the subject is prepared for the G onset, and approriately responds (as opposed to a passive subject).

Certainly in the sim many situations that virtual pilots recreate are not realistic with regard to pilot physiology. I would just love to see one of those trim on a slider guys thrown into a real fighter! ;-)


"My experience is very limited, as I was only able to fly in a performance aircraft for about 10 minutes as a ride along. (Part of an award I had received, the aircraft was an F-15) But that 10 minutes left me with a lasting impression. "

Wow! The F-15 is sure to leave an impression!

"My question, as stated in another thread, is this. Is it reasonable or not to expect a pilot to be able to pull some of the countless rolls and high G turns, on the edge of blackout, like we see in the game, and be able to do so successively, without any problems?"

I fly sequences at G loadings that are in the range of up to +8/-4 G for most of the manuvers, but the time that the Gs are at these levels is very brief, and my sequnces usually last only about 10 minutes. In these instances I notice no ill effects at all. I do however train for up to two hours at a time (usually with just a few minutes to fuel up between each hour) and I can tell you that after a that I certainly feel a bit fatigued for the rest of the day, and sometimes into the next day. This fatigue does reduce my G tolerance on subsequent flights that are back to back or even that same day.

After more frequent training these (rather slight) feelings of fatigue become less pronounced. On the other hand I know pilots that fly much less strenuous routines than mine (around +4/-0 G), who can only do 20 minutes of total flight time for their "missions" without feeling too exhausted to feel safe. And they train and condition much like I do. . . there are just differences in our physiology. . . and I would hate to have to load up a virtual pilot that had that issue, though it might add a level of realism above the current situation! Though I don't advocate this system simply because I think it would detract from the sim more than contribute, especially for those of us with the good G tolerance. ;-)

There really is a physical demand to this sort of flying that is above what most people would expect of someone "just sitting there". now, if this situation were changed, such that the pilot was already at the elevated stress level that combat would produce, if the pilot had been in the plane for hours already, if the pilot weren't physcially training for the Gs, if the pilot was new, if he had multiple engagements, then I figure that fatigue would certainly wear down his combat effectiveness and capability. (you have heard of the so called "go-pills"?) In actual combat the Gs that would be seen are probably more on the order of +4 to +5 and I dont imagine that there was much negative Gs at all. . . the way we fly in the sim is a tad different than this though.

"If it is, than I am totally off base with my request mentioned earlier. If it is not, how would you, as a real aerobatic pilot, feel about a certain amount of penality for pulling continuous high stress maneuvers?"

I just don't know of a way to improve on the current system that wouldn't require tons of work, while resulting in limited change to the current modeling, perhaps other than to make the aircraft have realistic structural failures. I see some things that just aren't possible being done all the time, and these are the things that really detract from this sim. Many aircraft will shed a wing at 8 Gs, most combat aircraft have a bit greater structural integrity, but not much. If structures were damaged at critical loadings, then I think much of this issue would be eliminated for the online df arena. In a single engagement I think adrenaline would be the primary thing acting on the pilot for the durations that most dogfights actually lasted, the way we fly in the sim, for hours on end, our little virtual pilots would be in sorry shape, if not dead! For coops or single player I think there is more room for the idea you suggest, but I guess I would rather have time spent on flight models, and physics, a let the guys who want to df all day long do there thing without consequence. It is the people who complain about the P-51 blowing up at 15 Gs that entertain me! Few of these aircraft could pull that G loading and come out unscathed, let alone the pilots!( I of course don't think only a few planes should model this. . .feature, so I understand why they take issue with it, but hearing that the planes blow up "all the time" and then hearing that it's at 15 Gs, well, I just hought that was funny.)

"If you could read the "Future Requests: Stamina and head moving" thread and comment, I would greatly appreciate it."

I am not sure I'm of any help to you, but I will do.

also check this out: http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/02/02SustainedAcceleration.html



S!
TX-EcoDragon
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[This message was edited by TX-EcoDragon on Fri April 16 2004 at 12:48 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, great post ExoDragon!

That chart pretty much jives with what I have heard and experienced. I'm no thousand hour pilot, but with limited time in aerobatic trainers the chart seems reasonable. A physically fit pilot can grunt through a sustained 5 G maneuver without much trouble... or at least I could sustain full vision and counsciousness longer than the Tweet could sustain 5Gs.

I tried a 7+ G pull once just for the heck of it, without performing any anti-G straining. m The pilot in the left seat went on pure O2 aqnd strained thru the maneuver to ensure that at least one of us would stay awake. There was NO warning before complete GLOC. I went from full color vision to totally out in a flash, after only about 2 seconds. Maneuver was performed around 8,000 MSL and my supplemental O2 was off, so that may have contributed to the sudden "lights out". Upon waking up, my body went through some involuntary convulsions for a few seconds and I remained groggy for at least 30 seconds, despite feeling a huge shot of adrenalin coursing through me.

Going out wasn't that bad. Waking up was rougher. What do you think about modelling "shaky controls" during recovery from G-loc, in a similar fashion to the way the controls get funny when you are wounded in the sim?