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ADixon81
12-01-2017, 04:41 AM
Anybody else having issue with shaman since nurfing. I find her unresponsive and slower and definitely lacking chain ability with attacks. Not sure if I just played that man lady matches of if this is what shaman is now.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 06:47 AM
Lol, she never was op. Have you played her?

DaLast_Samurai
12-01-2017, 07:15 AM
She WAS.
The nerf has put her right we she needs to be though.
She's not anymore.
And Aramusha never was.

I too have been experiencing a lot of commands not responding today with Orochi.

There is only one more stupid thing left I think they should fix with Shaman.

She should not be able to pounce through a heavy moveset attack like my Storm Rush.

Pouncing through a striking blade is just plain stupid, with no hit or damage taken no less.

Other than that, the cheese seems to be gone.

She can't dodge attack through my zone anymore.
Not sure if she can still guard break me out of my Zephyr Slash even when it's 50-99% spun through.
Hasn't happened yet today, but that is really annoying if she still can.

But props to Ubisoft for not leaving the cheese cancer in for months this time.

Howard_T_J
12-01-2017, 08:15 AM
She WAS.
The nerf has put her right we she needs to be though.
She's not anymore.
And Aramusha never was.

I too have been experiencing a lot of commands not responding today with Orochi.

There is only one more stupid thing left I think they should fix with Shaman.

She should not be able to pounce through a heavy moveset attack like my Storm Rush.

Pouncing through a striking blade is just plain stupid, with no hit or damage taken no less.

Other than that, the cheese seems to be gone.

She can't dodge attack through my zone anymore.
Not sure if she can still guard break me out of my Zephyr Slash even when it's 50-99% spun through.
Hasn't happened yet today, but that is really annoying if she still can.

But props to Ubisoft for not leaving the cheese cancer in for months this time.

HAHA I have video of this. I believe I knocked her down. Went back to storm rush, targeted the person next to her and got pounced out of storm rush. Completely blind sided lol

Also have a video of a conq knocking me out of my Hurricane blast. So much for uninterruptible lol

Oh when did nerf happen?

Vordred
12-01-2017, 09:40 AM
She WAS.
The nerf has put her right we she needs to be though.
She's not anymore.
And Aramusha never was.

I too have been experiencing a lot of commands not responding today with Orochi.

There is only one more stupid thing left I think they should fix with Shaman.

She should not be able to pounce through a heavy moveset attack like my Storm Rush.

Pouncing through a striking blade is just plain stupid, with no hit or damage taken no less.

Other than that, the cheese seems to be gone.

She can't dodge attack through my zone anymore.
Not sure if she can still guard break me out of my Zephyr Slash even when it's 50-99% spun through.
Hasn't happened yet today, but that is really annoying if she still can.

But props to Ubisoft for not leaving the cheese cancer in for months this time.

she is still op, that nerf did very little, it didn't fix the tracking issues or anything, all it did was slightly lower the damage on her dodge/dash attacks, and increase the recovery on them by 100ms to stop her being able to dash back for a second one before the other person could do anything.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 10:24 AM
I think you people have a difference in definition when it comes to overpowered than the rest of us do...

Herbstlicht
12-01-2017, 10:35 AM
Well, I guess pounce through uninterruptible attacks, specially being as fast as it is, really is bad for a lot of classes. I mean you should not be able to pounce Highlander out of any heavy and not get hit yourself though his giant blade should have clearly cut the shaman. Stuff like this really sucks.

Anyway, I too do think shaman is the strongest character still. And I am convinced she will get another nerf. Simply due to data saying she still has way more favourable then unfavorable matchups. But only time will tell who might be right here.

SlickCriminal27
12-01-2017, 02:49 PM
I think you people have a difference in definition when it comes to overpowered than the rest of us do...

And I suppose "the rest of us" is you right? That trash character needs further nerfing.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 03:21 PM
And I suppose "the rest of us" is you right? That trash character needs further nerfing.

Or maybe players should stop pretending they see better than they see clearly shown to be.
It is perfectly ok to suck. I'm pretty bad at this game on a regular basis, but I don't try and excuse my sorry performance by blaming the roster and my inability to adapt and react to changes.

I'll ask again, though I already know the answer, but how many of you have sat with a friend or a bit and actually tried to find holes in the move set? (Spoiler alert, it's none)

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 03:28 PM
Or maybe players should stop pretending they see better than they see clearly shown to be.
It is perfectly ok to suck. I'm pretty bad at this game on a regular basis, but I don't try and excuse my sorry performance by blaming the roster and my inability to adapt and react to changes.

I'll ask again, though I already know the answer, but how many of you have sat with a friend or a bit and actually tried to find holes in the move set? (Spoiler alert, it's none)lol i complained alot about shaman when the season pass players used shaman before me. Started to play shaman asap, wanted to see if anyone could counter me. Nope not really, i am average player and still destroy players Much better then me even after the nerf. Played dominion Game yesterday and won 1v3 3 prestige 20+ On the Class with full gear and i am prestige 3shaman with blue gear.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 03:34 PM
lol i complained alot about shaman when the season pass players used shaman before me. Started to play shaman asap, wanted to see if anyone could counter me. Nope not really, i am average player and still destroy players Much better then me even after the nerf. Played dominion Game yesterday and won 1v3 3 prestige 20+ On the Class with full gear and i am prestige 3shaman with blue gear.

After this statement I'm done discussing balance issues with a person who shows such clear signs of immaturity.
Seriously, you whine about a class just because others got to play it before you?

Gear doesn't mean ****. Rep level doesn't mean ****. I've been rekt by players ranging from no rep up to reps of 120. Likewise I've rekt shop on players in that same range. Try harder, troll.

I'm reminded of an episode of South Park, where Cartman HAD to have presents for himself at another kids birthday party. Some people's kids...

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 03:38 PM
After this statement I'm done discussing balance issues with a person who shows such clear signs of immaturity.
Seriously, you whine about a class just because others got to pay it before you?

I'm reminded of an episode of South Park, where Cartman HAD to have presents for himself at another kids birthday party. Some people's kids... i already Knew the Class was op before complaining, dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure that Out and after playing the Class i feel sorry for People playing against me. Nothing immature to give feedback on op classes. The only People that are immature are the ones ignoring the facts that shaman is op and chose to bury their heads in the sand.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 03:58 PM
i already Knew the Class was op before complaining, dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure that Out and after playing the Class i feel sorry for People playing against me. Nothing immature to give feedback on op classes. The only People that are immature are the ones ignoring the facts that shaman is op and chose to bury their heads in the sand.

I think you need a dictionary to help you with what the term "fact" actually means.
Fyi, facts are devoid of opinion.
Stating the Shaman is op is an opinion.

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 04:03 PM
I think you need a dictionary to help you with what the term "fact" actually means.
Fyi, facts are devoid of opinion.
Stating the Shaman is op is an opinion.shaman is op its a fact, even the devs Knows this and nerfing him more and more until reasonable Balanced. Btw is the earth flat to? :)

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 04:06 PM
shaman is op its a fact, even the devs Knows this and nerfing him more and more until reasonable Balanced. Btw is the earth flat to? :)

I'm sorry, you're still talking? Noob says what now?

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 04:11 PM
I'm sorry, you're still talking? Noob says what now?

Still waiting for you to play against My shaman, i want you to teach me how to play against shaman Hahahaha :D

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 05:02 PM
Still waiting for you to play against My shaman, i want you to teach me how to play against shaman Hahahaha :D

I think you misunderstood the help I was trying to offer, what with being such a troll and all.
From here on just feel free to disregard anything I say. I realize any further interaction with you is pointless as you aren't here to have meaningful discussions.
/I'm out

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 05:11 PM
I think you misunderstood the help I was trying to offer, what with being such a troll and all.
From here on just feel free to disregard anything I say. I realize any further interaction with you is pointless as you aren't here to have meaningful discussions.
/I'm out great its pointless to have a intelligent discussion with a person that is so delussional that he dont understand that shaman is op. Bye! :)

mrmistark
12-01-2017, 07:31 PM
Well, I donít know what your definition is of OP, but any character that has a move that is guaranteed with a knockdown or wall splat, can be canceled, heals on success, and deals 2.5 bars of damage while restoring the same, and has no side negative effects minus the possibility of a GB through a tight successful dodge is OP. Admittedly, if you suck at dodging, you can potentially hit her out of it, but you pretty much have to know immediately it is coming and hope youíre in range to do so.

Iím not claiming to be pro, because Iím not. Iím not claiming to even be good, because Iím not. But I am much better than the average player. I have to say though, I mained shugoki until almost rep 6. He is the closest to shamans pounce, but if he misses itís basically game over. There is no redo. He has a penalty, a realistic one, and realistic restriction to such a powerful move. Shaman does not. That is the problem. She has too many options, and yes, that is the direction one day I hope this game goes: options, thatís half of whatís wrong with the roster at the moment, but this kit particularly has way too many mix ups, too much value in blood trance, and little punishment for such high rewards. That is the problem, that is why shaman still needs to be looked at.

Alustar.
12-02-2017, 02:53 AM
Well, I donít know what your definition is of OP, but any character that has a move that is guaranteed with a knockdown or wall splat, can be canceled, heals on success, and deals 2.5 bars of damage while restoring the same, and has no side negative effects minus the possibility of a GB through a tight successful dodge is OP. Admittedly, if you suck at dodging, you can potentially hit her out of it, but you pretty much have to know immediately it is coming and hope youíre in range to do so.

Iím not claiming to be pro, because Iím not. Iím not claiming to even be good, because Iím not. But I am much better than the average player. I have to say though, I mained shugoki until almost rep 6. He is the closest to shamans pounce, but if he misses itís basically game over. There is no redo. He has a penalty, a realistic one, and realistic restriction to such a powerful move. Shaman does not. That is the problem. She has too many options, and yes, that is the direction one day I hope this game goes: options, thatís half of whatís wrong with the roster at the moment, but this kit particularly has way too many mix ups, too much value in blood trance, and little punishment for such high rewards. That is the problem, that is why shaman still needs to be looked at.

And I think that's the opposite, I've been saying since season 2, the reason players are having trouble with centurion was because he completely change the game. The old heroes need rework belle we start even considering heavy nerfs on the current roster. If we hit with a Nerf bat more, when the rework come is likely they are just going to be buffed back up anyway.
Additionally Fady117 has put together a pretty comprehensive piece on shaman kit flow, if you haven't checked it out, I suggest it as it can help with move recognition, which will help you avoid and counter the problematic attacks.

bob333e
12-02-2017, 03:26 AM
Additionally Fady117 has put together a pretty comprehensive piece on shaman kit flow, if you haven't checked it out, I suggest it as it can help with move recognition, which will help you avoid and counter the problematic attacks.

Thanks for the heads-up! I sure hope more and more people find what information I have gathered useful. Nothing pleases me more than knowing I'm being helpful on these forums :)

@mrmistark here's the link: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1795611-Countering-Shaman-(both-pre-nerf-and-post-nerf)

Do read through, not just the first initial messages (when you have the time). I, as well as others, keep adding good information in there whenever one of us learns something new.

Shaman is essentially the Breaker of Heroes, not the Breaker of The Defense Meta. Or whatever the devs nicknamed her. She counters almost the entire roster; working your usual tactics against her won't do for the most part. You've got to rethink your timing and distancing if you want to have a chance against Shaman; well, and also knowing Shaman's moveset and mixups.

ADixon81
12-02-2017, 04:53 AM
Lol, she never was op. Have you played her?

Shaman is my main I chose her over aramusha due similarities in game play with PK. I find it sad that she got nerfed it seems now people have learned how to fight her and a nerf may not have been necessary. With lower damage and a low stamina pool even my rep 8 full gear shaman gets exhausted before finishing a fight. She has been weakened and slowed down and now is easy to kill. Love that people can't get better just scream for nerfing of characters until they can win.

ADixon81
12-02-2017, 05:00 AM
Well, I donít know what your definition is of OP, but any character that has a move that is guaranteed with a knockdown or wall splat, can be canceled, heals on success, and deals 2.5 bars of damage while restoring the same, and has no side negative effects minus the possibility of a GB through a tight successful dodge is OP. Admittedly, if you suck at dodging, you can potentially hit her out of it, but you pretty much have to know immediately it is coming and hope youíre in range to do so.

Iím not claiming to be pro, because Iím not. Iím not claiming to even be good, because Iím not. But I am much better than the average player. I have to say though, I mained shugoki until almost rep 6. He is the closest to shamans pounce, but if he misses itís basically game over. There is no redo. He has a penalty, a realistic one, and realistic restriction to such a powerful move. Shaman does not. That is the problem. She has too many options, and yes, that is the direction one day I hope this game goes: options, thatís half of whatís wrong with the roster at the moment, but this kit particularly has way too many mix ups, too much value in blood trance, and little punishment for such high rewards. That is the problem, that is why shaman still needs to be looked at.

Your issue with shaman isn't that she is op the issue is she is a new character that is fast with mix ups. These sound like the same cries of condition until people learned how to play against him. Give it some time and you will see her tendencies just like every other character you had to learn to beat. Get better instead nerfing characters to a point where they no longer bring any advantage to battle at all.

mrmistark
12-02-2017, 05:08 AM
And I think that's the opposite, I've been saying since season 2, the reason players are having trouble with centurion was because he completely change the game. The old heroes need rework belle we start even considering heavy nerfs on the current roster. If we hit with a Nerf bat more, when the rework come is likely they are just going to be buffed back up anyway.
Additionally Fady117 has put together a pretty comprehensive piece on shaman kit flow, if you haven't checked it out, I suggest it as it can help with move recognition, which will help you avoid and counter the problematic attacks.

Iíve been playing since beta and I honestly donít feel like centurion changed the game, he was just the new most complained about. Before it was PK, warden, shugoki ect.

I disagree about the reworks to OG characters causing other moves like shamans pounce to get rebuffed if it ever gets nerfed. The reason Og characters are getting reworked is because they are no where on par with the rest of the roster determined by moveset viability. She isnít OP overall, just her pounce in blood trance. We donít want a bunch of ďwho gets a couple of moves off first, thatís who winsĒ characters, they want each to be viable without being game breaking. The reworks are on the lowest of the low tier characters. The whole point of reworking the roster is to balance it, and ideally make a game where no character is ďbetterĒ or ďworseĒ just different .

Shamans kit is not OP as a whole, Ive played enough to know the flow of the kit. Thatís not the problem nor the point at all of my comment. I am referring specifically to her pounce in blood trance, which is undeniably, if you donít like the term Op, at least way overtuned compared to the rest of the rosters moves, the reasons I have explained by my previous comment. I will check out your friends piece anyways though, thanks, cheers!

EDIT: for the record, I never wanted anything to get nerfed except the pounce in blood trance. That is all. Sorry they broke the character for some of you all. I hadnít ran into a shaman today, so couldnít see the effect of her numbers and speed the nerfs hit.

Alustar.
12-02-2017, 04:59 PM
Iíve been playing since beta and I honestly donít feel like centurion changed the game, he was just the new most complained about. Before it was PK, warden, shugoki ect.

I disagree about the reworks to OG characters causing other moves like shamans pounce to get rebuffed if it ever gets nerfed. The reason Og characters are getting reworked is because they are no where on par with the rest of the roster determined by moveset viability. She isnít OP overall, just her pounce in blood trance. We donít want a bunch of ďwho gets a couple of moves off first, thatís who winsĒ characters, they want each to be viable without being game breaking. The reworks are on the lowest of the low tier characters. The whole point of reworking the roster is to balance it, and ideally make a game where no character is ďbetterĒ or ďworseĒ just different .

Shamans kit is not OP as a whole, Ive played enough to know the flow of the kit. Thatís not the problem nor the point at all of my comment. I am referring specifically to her pounce in blood trance, which is undeniably, if you donít like the term Op, at least way overtuned compared to the rest of the rosters moves, the reasons I have explained by my previous comment. I will check out your friends piece anyways though, thanks, cheers!

EDIT: for the record, I never wanted anything to get nerfed except the pounce in blood trance. That is all. Sorry they broke the character for some of you all. I hadnít ran into a shaman today, so couldnít see the effect of her numbers and speed the nerfs hit.

The centurion debate is kind of moot, both in relevance and opinion basis. I think at that we can agree to disagree there.
However the pounce thing is something I'm actually not sure of yet. In a static 1v1 I can see the point, the problem comes in 4s (again, lol) from my seat, I find that maneuver far more risky than anything else. While the damage is high, yes, it's also incredibly easy to get knocked out of it before you even land the pounce. If it's not an enemy, is an ally with a stay attack because of poor co-op play. It's actually at the point I very rarely use it outside of catching someone alone or if I'm running with a premade. But to reiterate, I'm still on the fence. One mentioned in another thread a possible fix would be tying the damage to her blood trance/healing to how many opponents are currently effected by bleeds within her range. I feel that would incest her skill cap significantly and curtail abuse of pounces both in 4s and duels.

ADixon81
12-02-2017, 05:23 PM
The centurion debate is kind of moot, both in relevance and opinion basis. I think at that we can agree to disagree there.
However the pounce thing is something I'm actually not sure of yet. In a static 1v1 I can see the point, the problem comes in 4s (again, lol) from my seat, I find that maneuver far more risky than anything else. While the damage is high, yes, it's also incredibly easy to get knocked out of it before you even land the pounce. If it's not an enemy, is an ally with a stay attack because of poor co-op play. It's actually at the point I very rarely use it outside of catching someone alone or if I'm running with a premade. But to reiterate, I'm still on the fence. One mentioned in another thread a possible fix would be tying the damage to her blood trance/healing to how many opponents are currently effected by bleeds within her range. I feel that would incest her skill cap significantly and curtail abuse of pounces both in 4s and duels.

There are more than enough limitations on the pounce. You listed all of them. why does pounce also need to be weakened or made more difficult to pull at full benefit when there are already so many options to avoid it or have it canceled once landed?

mrmistark
12-02-2017, 05:40 PM
The centurion debate is kind of moot, both in relevance and opinion basis. I think at that we can agree to disagree there.
However the pounce thing is something I'm actually not sure of yet. In a static 1v1 I can see the point, the problem comes in 4s (again, lol) from my seat, I find that maneuver far more risky than anything else. While the damage is high, yes, it's also incredibly easy to get knocked out of it before you even land the pounce. If it's not an enemy, is an ally with a stay attack because of poor co-op play. It's actually at the point I very rarely use it outside of catching someone alone or if I'm running with a premade. But to reiterate, I'm still on the fence. One mentioned in another thread a possible fix would be tying the damage to her blood trance/healing to how many opponents are currently effected by bleeds within her range. I feel that would incest her skill cap significantly and curtail abuse of pounces both in 4s and duels.

Those changes would be interesting, I do agree that overall it isnít optimal when being ganked, but I play mainly brawls and duels and like to dabble in tribute (which despite being a team game, I almost always am going for the objective in enemy territory alone because the other players somehow amazingly donít understand that not only is the enemy team being buffed, but we need at least the majority to win, meaning I end up running into many 1v1 situations on the way to steal an offering, but I digress). I think the biggest problem though is when she hits revenge. All you have to do is fix your stats to be revenge duration and gain so all you have to do is survive a couple seconds and get one feint in, hit revenge and spam pounce and not be interrupted. Itíll push the opponent far enough away the other only gets a couple hits in, youíll deal massive damage and heal the same or more then you took. In more than a 1v2, I would never use it, though if you get in a situation like this you should count on being dead anyways. I respect your opinion, personally though I think it is way too strong ATM. If it did about half the damage making it same amount of punish (in general, some characters donít get heavy on Gb) for success then Iíd be inclined to say it was perfectly balanced, however in al instances this move posses too big of a reward as opposed to punish. Right now not counting the possibility of hazard or wall splat, she needs to be successfully dodged and punished twice to equal to, or a little less sometimes, the damage you would have taken, and if you miss it a 3rd time then itís back to square one like you never out played her the other 2 times. This in my opinion is way too strong, not even considering the fact it can be feinted, and is guaranteed on wall splats and knock downs.

Devils-_-legacy
12-02-2017, 06:08 PM
Only thing about shaman that I would like changed is her side dodge attack my attacks just go through her and count as a Miss even though the blade goes through her body in the animation only seems to be blockable can't seem to interupt the attack other then that shouldn't get a throw plus bash as a assassin not to sure why she's better at ledging then heavys lol other then this she's just a pk on sterioids.

Alustar.
12-02-2017, 10:44 PM
Those changes would be interesting, I do agree that overall it isnít optimal when being ganked, but I play mainly brawls and duels and like to dabble in tribute (which despite being a team game, I almost always am going for the objective in enemy territory alone because the other players somehow amazingly donít understand that not only is the enemy team being buffed, but we need at least the majority to win, meaning I end up running into many 1v1 situations on the way to steal an offering, but I digress). I think the biggest problem though is when she hits revenge. All you have to do is fix your stats to be revenge duration and gain so all you have to do is survive a couple seconds and get one feint in, hit revenge and spam pounce and not be interrupted. Itíll push the opponent far enough away the other only gets a couple hits in, youíll deal massive damage and heal the same or more then you took. In more than a 1v2, I would never use it, though if you get in a situation like this you should count on being dead anyways. I respect your opinion, personally though I think it is way too strong ATM. If it did about half the damage making it same amount of punish (in general, some characters donít get heavy on Gb) for success then Iíd be inclined to say it was perfectly balanced, however in al instances this move posses too big of a reward as opposed to punish. Right now not counting the possibility of hazard or wall splat, she needs to be successfully dodged and punished twice to equal to, or a little less sometimes, the damage you would have taken, and if you miss it a 3rd time then itís back to square one like you never out played her the other 2 times. This in my opinion is way too strong, not even considering the fact it can be feinted, and is guaranteed on wall splats and knock downs.

That's where I think having her bleed damage tied to amount of opponents suffering from bleeds would help the most. That way you could bring her damage down to just enough to be lethal if you are at critical or close to it in a 1v1 and she could maintain a sense of crowd control in groups.

In all fairness, though, and not to deflect this, just pointing out different heroes that have kits that can roll over someone not expecting it, Valkyrie for instance. If you throw it a careless top heavy, off of that parry she can head but and stamina break you. In just that maneuver, which if I'm not mistaken also grounds you other wise a shield bash or guard break is coming to get you there, and after that is usually an unavoidable top heavy, double side light then another sweep which if that connects is another free top heavy.
Now I know those are wildly different scenarios, but in both of them are key moves to look for to prevent the combo from continuing.
Sorry for the rant, it's late for me.