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View Full Version : Poll: Which OG classes require a rework next?



PDXGorechild
11-30-2017, 12:40 PM
So Kensei, Conqueror and Berserker will soon() be getting the reworks they so desperately need to be as viable as the new classes and their huge kits, which is a third of the roster now. For that reason they'll obviously be left out.

This leaves Warden, Peacekeeper, Lawbringer, Raider, Warlord, Valkyrie, Orochi, Shugoki and Nobushi.

Personally I think the Orochi is next in line for a rework, being that he only has a few viable attacks and has become increasingly boring to play compared to all the other new and shiny classes. Lawbringer seems like he's in a similar position. I've always thought the Shugoki could do with some love as well, he's such a cool class but suffers massive under-representation for some reason.

All the other classes seem like they're in a decent place to me, mid tier at least. Not so sure they need reworks as much as a few tweaks.

Knight_Raime
11-30-2017, 12:57 PM
I wouldn't say orochi has few viable moves. If you look at things on a spread sheet his "best" options are top heavy after parry or any punish situation and top lights. But the problem with spread sheets is that it doesn't account for the whole gameplay picture. His dodge attacks are great against heros that are super punished by dodge attacks. A recent example is shaman. Storm rush is a better option for whiff punishing compared to zone against assassins. Zone is still viable even after flicker fix against people who use unblockables as mix ups. I can go on. I'm not saying his kit can't be touched up. Just pointing out that orochi's problem is less his kit and more so that he's purely a counter attacker who is meant to use specific options against specific things. This forces people to play a way they are not comfortable with.

I want to personally say lawbringer or goki. Just because shove on block NEEDS to go. And I just absolutely hate goki's design entirely. He's super turtly and HIGHLY benefits off of a single slip up. He's also built around trading which would be fine if it require risk assessment. It generally doesn't. You either roll goki or he rolls you. Which is the prime reason why conq is getting changed so goki should as well based on that logic.

Though if I set my bias aside I would say the next kit that's actually hurting and needs a look is valk. She's absolutely pointless and extremely punishable. Her poke poke sweep loop is too easy to avoid and punish. Her dodge and dash attacks are too easy to punish. her shield/helmet smack are too situational. I can go on. All OG heros need some kind of work. either due to being actually worthless or because they rely on an outdated gimmick. Like warden.

CoyoteXStarrk
11-30-2017, 02:48 PM
The Conqueror needs it more than any other character in the game.


Anyone who disagrees hasn't properly surveyed the situation and done their research

CoyoteXStarrk
11-30-2017, 02:49 PM
.

Vordred
11-30-2017, 02:58 PM
well, i know a lot of people complain about the Orochi. but it's not a class I play so can't really comment on how bad it is.

honestly, i feel like the Centurion could do with one. the Cent and Shinobi feel a bit like failed experiments to me.

but out of the ones on the list, I voted for the warden, for pretty bias reason those, I love the warden, but I find him really boring to play and 50/50ing people just feels lame.

WABO423
11-30-2017, 03:03 PM
The Conqueror needs it more than any other character in the game.


Anyone who disagrees hasn't properly surveyed the situation and done their research

Hes already getting a rework...
I want to see warden, shug, and orochi next

Warden because hes the most predictable and boring to play character. Would like to see him be more rounded and have more options.

Shug is so limited on what he can do. Trade hit. Demons embrace. I dont think he needs a huge kit, just some options that let him keep his tank role and add more depth

Orochi is in a better place than the other 2 but is very lackluster that needs a couple more options than he has. I dont feel like he needs an unblockable opener. Hes a counter attacker and should stay that way.

Vordred
11-30-2017, 03:07 PM
He’s already getting a rework...
I want to see warden, shug, and orochi next

Warden because he’s the most predictable and boring to play character. Would like to see him be more rounded and have more options.

Shug is so limited on what he can do. Trade hit. Demons embrace. I don’t think he needs a huge kit, just some options that let him keep his tank role and add more depth

Orochi is in a better place than the other 2 but is very lackluster that needs a couple more options than he has. I don’t feel like he needs an unblockable opener. He’s a counter attacker and should stay that way.

yeah i would certainly agree with that

CandleInTheDark
11-30-2017, 03:34 PM
I want to see the Peacekeeper get a rework for the same kind of reason Raime mentioned Lawbringer, her spam needs to go, but there are others that need it first. If it were me I would try to carry on the pattern set by the first batch, one for each faction focussing on arguably the lowest tier in those factions. So we have for this one

Conqueror, Berserker, Kensei

I would likely go from here

Lawbringer, Valkyrie, Orochi

Peacekeeper, Raider, Shugoki

Warden, Warlord, Nobushi

In my view,on that list, Peacekeeper and Warden could be interchangeable as could Orochi and Shugoki, you could also make the argument that Shugoki and Orochi could do with being in the same batch ahead of Lawbringer or Valkyrie but I think one per faction each time is fair.

JediGamerFurius
11-30-2017, 04:08 PM
I voted Orochi, but since they are doing three in a row, then I think Orochi, Warden and Valk

PDXGorechild
11-30-2017, 04:41 PM
The Conqueror needs it more than any other character in the game.


Anyone who disagrees hasn't properly surveyed the situation and done their research

Yes, Coyote. I think most people are aware of that. The dev's are too, hence the announcement.

Agree with Knight_Raime on Lawbringer and Shugoki. Both of these classes only really have one viable tactic which although can be quite effective, is boring to play as or against. Conqueror needs his rework for the same reason so glad he's getting one first. I do feel sorry for people who main these classes, my Berserker is trash but tons of fun and really engaging to play hence why i've stuck with him.

Agree with Candle on the blocks of three classes with one from each faction per rework. This should stop the Samurai from getting too salty...

Interesting to see more people voted Valkyrie than I initially thought. I've seen skilled Valkyrie's that scare the absolute crap outta me.

Vordred
11-30-2017, 05:02 PM
Interesting to see more people voted Valkyrie than I initially thought. I've seen skilled Valkyrie's that scare the absolute crap outta me.

yeah same, i tend to struggle with Valks, but i think that might be mainly down to rarely ever going against one, so don't get used to what they do, and only time i played as the valk was in story, so think i'm just sorely lacking on knowledge when it comes to the Valk.

Devils-_-legacy
11-30-2017, 05:07 PM
I'd love to see a conq re work give me a reason to play as a knight again love the mourning star/flail idea

Illyrian_King
11-30-2017, 05:12 PM
I always had the fantasy of the Lawbringer using his halberd more as a pike then now ... like having a defensive stance which allows him to keep enemies on distance.
Also seeing him using the halberd as a hook or having him to hack into the enemies legs with a massive swing and causing him to fall (which is historically more then accurate) would give some nice new options.

I am not saying that Lawbringer needs a rework the most, I am just saying that a few extra abilities wouldn't be wrong in place ^^

Fairemont
11-30-2017, 05:16 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing my beloved Nobushi get some attention. She's not in a terrible place, really, but I would not mind seeing her get a slightly expanded and more versatile kit like some of the new heroes. Some stuff with flair and pizzazz, too! Not to mention with all the new hyper mobile characters her older V E R S A T I L E retreats aren't quite as V E R S A T I L E or useful as they were. She could use some more mobility option.

brashtralas
11-30-2017, 05:54 PM
Hes not og, but centurion. As soon as the parry changes happen, he will become the least competitive. His previous nerfs made him more manageable by reducing him into a punish machine, the one thing everyone complained most about.

If not him, warden. The warden has no frills whatsoever, and relies on striking with fast lights to interrupt his opponents slower heavies.

Problem is, new characters are getting faster and faster heavies, more dodge heavies, and more soft feints, making a lot of his kit unviable.

Just my opinion.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
11-30-2017, 06:05 PM
May I ask where do you guys see it saying that a Conqueror rework will happen. I love it as is but Ill take any additions.

CandleInTheDark
11-30-2017, 06:52 PM
He’s not og, but centurion. As soon as the parry changes happen, he will become the least competitive. His previous nerfs made him more manageable by reducing him into a punish machine, the one thing everyone complained most about.

If not him, warden. The warden has no frills whatsoever, and relies on striking with fast lights to interrupt his opponents slower heavies.

Problem is, new characters are getting faster and faster heavies, more dodge heavies, and more soft feints, making a lot of his “kit” unviable.

Just my opinion.

Given the centurion has a dedicated parry punish when the changes come through he will actually be stronger if no one else but the gladiator (who also has a punish off parry) gets a definite guardbreak/heavy off a parry.


May I ask where do you guys see it saying that a Conqueror rework will happen. I love it as is but Ill take any additions.

They have said on reddit and the Den that Conqueror, Berserker and Kensei will be the first batch of reworks to drop whenever they do.

Baturai
11-30-2017, 07:02 PM
Valk Orochi Kensei these heroes need change Positive way

DaLast_Samurai
11-30-2017, 08:47 PM
Orochi should have been first in line.
Not because he's my main and I'm biased.

But because he is by overwhelming popular opinion under powered.

Sure, some will always play devil's advocate, but he is bottom tier.

No useful tools to open up turtles.
Small kit.
His counter moves can be interupted in different ways by different heroes.

Kensei and Shaman can dodge attack through his zone at hugging distance.

Shaman can guard break him out of his Zephyr Slash no matter how late he is into it.

His two essential counter moves need more initial pull back to be useful against the many heroes with further attack range.
Meaning, he should not be eating hits and staggered out of his move while pulling back with Storm Rush or Riptide Strike against characters he can't get close enough to hit before getting hit in the first place.
Defeats the purpose of a "counter" move.

Take Kensei for example.
Under powered against most I know, but dominates Orochi with side lights that can reach him before Orochi can reach him with anything.
It's like a boxing match, with Orochi being 5'11" and Kensei 6'4".

He would be a dead even matchup with Berserker, if it wasn't for Zerk's hyper armor that gives him that little edge.
Didn't realize until last night that Aramusha has some hyper armor as well.
I nailed him with top lights as he was just winding up to start his chain, and grimmaced as it didn't phase him a bit.

He needs some more unique moves to provide options in close quarters.
If the fight is not out in the open, he is just a punching bag.

For all the talk of the damage he can deal, he still is limited in actual combat by the fact that he can't string together a combo of any decent length, and his limited kit making what he can string together very predictable.

I'm posting below what thoughts I've had in the Samurai Forum as a BASE rework of what he has now.
With mentioning that the devs should come up with some more additions to his kit as well.

DaLast_Samurai
11-30-2017, 08:48 PM
Changing his class to a hybrid I think could be a good rework for him.

Take away deflects and replace reflex blocking with normal blocking.
Take away his gaurunteed second top light to be fair as well.
And increase him to a more standard health pool.

Real blocking and a decent health pool would give him more than a two second life expectency in a 1vX.
Makes getting revenge more realistic for him, so you can replace his offensive revenge feat I think with Centurion's zone attack regenerating when killing soldiers feat.
With a more useful three swipe zone like his.

Give Riptide strike a little more pull back range, and able to be cancelled like Storm Rush.
Have it so when you pull back with Riptide Strike you hold the heavy attack and let go when you want to strike foward.
A short timing window to strike foward fast and short, or pull back further first by holding it longer.

He has a serious range issue against most characters.

On that note, I would let Storm Rush pull back a bit further by holding the heavy attack too.
These are meant to be counter moves, yet against a lot of characters, Orochi just eats a hit trying to back away with these essential counter moves.
Defeats it's purpose.

Now that we took away deflects, add something useful in it's place similar to the Warden's Shoulder Bash to give him some muscle option in tight spaces and something to help open up opponents.

I would also improve his unlocked sprinting attack to have more range and speed like Aramusha.

I know the Lightning Strike works well against opponents attempting to flee.
But he should have a ranged unlocked heavy too.

That blade blockade Aramusha has would be really cool too.

And my last idea is purely an aesthetic improvement.
I would be thrilled if when he parrys to the left or right, he turns the sword down, handle up, and does it with one hand.
Would seem less "knightish", more "samuraish".

So these are just my basic rework ideas.
I think the devs should come up with a few more options in his kit to get him on par with the characters coming out every season as well.

I'm pretty dissapointed that he didn't make the first round of original hero reworks.
He certainly has been worse off then some of them.

Hope it doesn't mean it will take months.

David_gorda
11-30-2017, 08:49 PM
Peacekeeper need nerf, 400 Ms unreactable attacks by 99% Of players on console are not healthy for the Game. To Mich mobility when out stamina aswell makes him hard to punish even when he make mistakes.

PDXGorechild
12-01-2017, 09:38 AM
Changing his class to a hybrid I think could be a good rework for him.

Take away deflects and replace reflex blocking with normal blocking.
Take away his gaurunteed second top light to be fair as well.
And increase him to a more standard health pool.

Real blocking and a decent health pool would give him more than a two second life expectency in a 1vX.
Makes getting revenge more realistic for him, so you can replace his offensive revenge feat I think with Centurion's zone attack regenerating when killing soldiers feat.
With a more useful three swipe zone like his.

Give Riptide strike a little more pull back range, and able to be cancelled like Storm Rush.
Have it so when you pull back with Riptide Strike you hold the heavy attack and let go when you want to strike foward.
A short timing window to strike foward fast and short, or pull back further first by holding it longer.

He has a serious range issue against most characters.

On that note, I would let Storm Rush pull back a bit further by holding the heavy attack too.
These are meant to be counter moves, yet against a lot of characters, Orochi just eats a hit trying to back away with these essential counter moves.
Defeats it's purpose.

Now that we took away deflects, add something useful in it's place similar to the Warden's Shoulder Bash to give him some muscle option in tight spaces and something to help open up opponents.

I would also improve his unlocked sprinting attack to have more range and speed like Aramusha.

I know the Lightning Strike works well against opponents attempting to flee.
But he should have a ranged unlocked heavy too.

That blade blockade Aramusha has would be really cool too.

And my last idea is purely an aesthetic improvement.
I would be thrilled if when he parrys to the left or right, he turns the sword down, handle up, and does it with one hand.
Would seem less "knightish", more "samuraish".

So these are just my basic rework ideas.
I think the devs should come up with a few more options in his kit to get him on par with the characters coming out every season as well.

I'm pretty dissapointed that he didn't make the first round of original hero reworks.
He certainly has been worse off then some of them.

Hope it doesn't mean it will take months.

If i'm honest I haven't played any class extensively other than the Berserker. I learnt all the other classes moves and combo's in practice but never played any of them past rep 1 in multiplayer, so I can't give much of a valid opinion on how to affect changes other than from experience playing against them. Orochi has always been a popular class despite his issues. I feel his pain as a Berserker as he suffers a lot of the same issues from what I can see - most of his moves are situational and fairly useless against a clued up opponent 1v1. So he relies on one or two tricks to win and struggles terribly against turtles due to having no opener. This pushes the player to put in maximal effort just to lay a hit on a lot of classes who have multiple easy ways to land one on you, which isn't fair. For these reasons I voted Orochi next. Some interesting ideas here but I can't agree with taking away reflex guard - he is an Assassin and should stay that way. ;)