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hecate160992
11-30-2017, 01:11 AM
Both new characters rewards spamming even when play at a high level. If this is the design choice going forward then I'm sad to say I won't be supporting this game anymore. The news of old character reworks has be worried that people like Kensei will also be redesigned into mindless button mashers.

dizzy-glad
11-30-2017, 01:15 AM
Mindlessly mashing buttons gets you killed vs good players with decent network connections.

hecate160992
11-30-2017, 01:21 AM
400ms attacks shouldn't exist period when the shoddy netcode means that it isn't even guaranteed to be humanly reactable 50% of the time

Oupyz
11-30-2017, 03:02 AM
tottaly wrong everything is reactable 100% of time at least at high level of play mashing **** will get you destroyed

hecate160992
11-30-2017, 03:22 AM
Except it isn't when the average human reaction time is 200-250ms, guard switch delay is 100ms, and the latency can add anywhere between 50 and 200ms too. This means even with PERFECT conditions you have 250ms to react to a 400ms attack. This means that with even a little bit of lag it becomes unreactable. And that's a FACT, it's been proven plenty of times, and is the reason why the streamers are dropping the game.

Characters like shaman/aramusha/pk are bad for the health of the game. Period.

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 04:23 AM
Both new characters rewards spamming even when play at a high level. If this is the design choice going forward then I'm sad to say I won't be supporting this game anymore. The news of old character reworks has be worried that people like Kensei will also be redesigned into mindless button mashers.
Have you tried playing the 2 new characters? You'll find that both actually require some brain power and skill to use. Aramusha is the harder of the two to use imo because he's so easily shut down by just blocking him so you have to learn to think outside of the box in order to beat more experienced players. Shaman is easier to get to know because she has everything but she also becomes incredibly predictable in the hands of someone who just sticks to using her gimmicks only.

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 04:31 AM
Except it isn't when the average human reaction time is 200-250ms, guard switch delay is 100ms, and the latency can add anywhere between 50 and 200ms too. This means even with PERFECT conditions you have 250ms to react to a 400ms attack. This means that with even a little bit of lag it becomes unreactable. And that's a FACT, it's been proven plenty of times, and is the reason why the streamers are dropping the game.
Yes, lag is a problem when it occurs but 400ms attacks aren't that much of a problem on PC under normal circumstances. Which streamers are dropping the game? Plenty of the big names are still here and going strong: Zero Craic, Daithe De Nogla, Havoc, Shmolty, Flookerson, Mege, Cartoonz, Tru3Tal3nt, Dear Gamer and others.


Characters like shaman/aramusha/pk are bad for the health of the game. Period.
Meh. Seems more like they're bad for you because you don't like them.

Baturai
11-30-2017, 04:32 AM
Stop defending new heroes + glad shinobi and pk. Op af.

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 04:35 AM
Stop defending new heroes + glad shinobi and pk. Op af.
Stop pretending they're OP without even playing them maybe?

hecate160992
11-30-2017, 04:37 AM
True is barely playing an hour duels per week fo late. He came back for the start of season 4 and has already became sickened by the current state of the game. Sypher and skys have been discontent for awhile too. That's just off the top of my head.

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 04:45 AM
True is barely playing an hour duels per week fo late. He came back for the start of season 4 and has already became sickened by the current state of the game. Sypher and skys have been discontent for awhile too. That's just off the top of my head.
Too bad for them I guess, I don't follow Sypher or Skys.. True however isn't sickened by the new direction this game is headed in, please don't make stuff up about the guy. He's said on more than one occassion that it is finally headed in the right direction in his opinion. He was thrilled with the removal of health regen and he actually enjoys playing the Aramusha. He moves on to other games frequently so it's no reall surprise his main focus isn't For Honor anymore.

hecate160992
11-30-2017, 04:50 AM
Anyways the whole point of this topic wasn't that spamming one move is effective to win. But rather that the majority of characters post launch have access to easily used unblockables and lightning fast-attacks that the original roster simply cannot deal with. As I said I'm aware of the incoming reworks for older characters to bring them in line with the new, but if that means adding the same lame cheesy gimmicks to all classes then I am hugely disappointed with the direction the game is heading.

To clarify; my complaint isn't that characters like shaman/glad/whatever has access to these tools while others don't. My complaint is the fact that these tools even exist in the first place. The game has evolved alot over the course of 3 seasons in a direction that I simply do not care. I was first interested in the title BECAUSE of the slower paced combat with thought and reading your opponent. The majority of that is obsolete now turning into a combofest of guaranteed damage, at this rate it's noly a matter of time before we get Tekken style air combos too.

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 05:55 AM
That I agree with. The game does seem to be moving towards a more fast paced, almost frenzied style of attacking. I do miss the strategy and calculated attacks of the early betas when the art of combat was in its heyday. The problem I see is with the playerbase to be honest. It always happens in PvP games to some extent. Players start finding and using every single cheese move and safe tactic they can get and that spreads like wild fire throughout the community until everyone starts using only safe moves.

Alustar.
11-30-2017, 06:07 AM
True is barely playing an hour duels per week fo late. He came back for the start of season 4 and has already became sickened by the current state of the game. Sypher and skys have been discontent for awhile too. That's just off the top of my head.

So a couple of youtubers turn out to not be as pro as everyone thinks and that's a cause for alarm? I'm honestly curious if you've actually picked up the be heroes and played them before you made this post. Go spam with any hero and see how far that gets you in a match. Even in 4s you can't go crazy with the spam or risk getting screwed by a recent popped.

Arekonator
11-30-2017, 06:33 AM
You seem to be mistaking a personal skill with opinion on the game. The guys in question competed in one or more season finals, accusing them of lack of skill is mistaken.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 06:49 AM
The slower style of fighting you where talking about has a name: The Turtle Meta. Players complained that it was not fun to play as, and that everyone hated turtles so Ubisoft have listened and these recent heroes are designed to combat the turtle meta. I think the game is headed in a very good direction with the combat right now, but also believe that Ubisoft has a lot of work to do in ironing out all the bugs and issues the game has.
What we can learn from this thread is that no matter what, the community will never be happy. We are finally putting the turtle meta behind us, but now people are starting to complain that it's not as slow. All the calculated attacks from the start of the game? Waiting for your enemy to make a move and react to that constantly instead of doing anything yourself you mean.
If you can't adapt to the way the game is going, don't beg for it to be changed back. Switch on a little more, and you can find it's still very much possible to be calculating and have a strategy while playing aggressive.

Alustar.
11-30-2017, 07:08 AM
You seem to be mistaking a personal skill with opinion on the game. The guys in question competed in one or more season finals, accusing them of lack of skill is mistaken.

You mean 1v1 tournaments? Right, ok sure let's talk about that. These youtubers had trouble with 1v1. The slowest of all the multiplayer game modes, and honestly that right there is the main issue. we have this huge out cry for balance, but you can't balance everything around just duels. But go on, I'd love to hear more about how pro this guy is you watch play video games. :/

Arekonator
11-30-2017, 07:46 AM
Pretty sure we are not talking about the same guys then but thats beside the point. Though i wonder how qualifying through countless tournaments to get into finals means they "have trouble" with 1v1.

Also you are hardly "leaving behind the turtle meta" unless you happen to play specific characters and on top, those characters still benefit fully from turtling if they decide to do so. To truly put the turtle meta behind, as you say, would mean bring all other characters up to speed in addition to overhauling the combat system in general - both of those are promised. For now, its leaving the turtle meta behind about as much as shugoki charge spam or raider charge spam did.

Aditionally i am not complaining about game changes, save for some specific issues with shaman which i adressed elsewhere (and which are getting mostly adressed with next patch.

Going "lol you are just bad and need to git gud" to anyone who voices complaints about new characters/changes/whatever just makes you seem like paid shill and condescending c*nt.

*1$ has been deposited to your account*

NHLGoldenKnight
11-30-2017, 07:55 AM
Well, right now I am playing Dominion and there is this guy who his sending irritating Wow Wow texts because he being killed now and then. But why he is doing that? Because he is playing as Shaman and somehow believes he shoud win every fight.

He just tried to take away zone with only 1 bar of health left and I killed him easily. Guess what, he is completely surprised, how the hell I was able to kill him?

These cocky Millennials , what else to say :p

Spectre_198
11-30-2017, 08:02 AM
90% of Arumusha span nothing but lights: I consider myself a part of the 10%. There have only been around 2-3 others I've seen that, like I do, use the mix ups; feint lights into heavies, feint heavies into lights, use the Parry attacks(Kick, Unblockable, Quick heavy, etc), parry in general and use the dodging attacks. What does it tell you that the people who use the character without the cheesy tactics hate the people who do. Honestly takes a lot of skill to really play the character to its full extent and its maddening to be killed by another arumusha using infinite light attacks and ganks

Okita_Soji..
11-30-2017, 08:07 AM
So a couple of youtubers turn out to not be as pro as everyone thinks and that's a cause for alarm? I'm honestly curious if you've actually picked up the be heroes and played them before you made this post. Go spam with any hero and see how far that gets you in a match. Even in 4s you can't go crazy with the spam or risk getting screwed by a recent popped.

I disagree with that last statement about the 4v4... I was just playing tribute and it is next impossible to stop aramusha light spam from the front with a shamen attacking your side as an assassin. Just drop the Xbox controller when that happens cause you can't react fast enough to do anything. I'm no pro but both their total reps don't even add up to mine is its not like I'm new to this game. 1v1's might not be impossible but these new heros excel in 4v4. No lie almost every game the new heros were the top take down players no make what rep level on each side. Even some total rep 2 player with a 12 level shamen had 16 kills. Not sure how he got matched with our group as everyone else was rep 30-50.

I think the game is going down hill and it is not as fun anymore. I have been having a blast playing this since season 2, it was easily my favorite game and I couldn't wait for the Ronin. So disappointed. Now if you get into a game with lets say againt 3 shamen, which is quite normal now, why bother as it will be a slaughter no matter what level they are.

Maybe PC is different but here on Xbox both new heros out class everyone else. Season 3 wasn't like this. Even against the glad I never felt over matched from the start. As an assassin the light spam crap is ridiculous with the feints that keep the chain going. You want to make it balanced make everyone have a reflex guard then see how tough these new heros are compaired to the rest of the cast.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-30-2017, 08:12 AM
The slower style of fighting you where talking about has a name: The Turtle Meta. Players complained that it was not fun to play as, and that everyone hated turtles so Ubisoft have listened and these recent heroes are designed to combat the turtle meta. I think the game is headed in a very good direction with the combat right now, but also believe that Ubisoft has a lot of work to do in ironing out all the bugs and issues the game has.
What we can learn from this thread is that no matter what, the community will never be happy. We are finally putting the turtle meta behind us, but now people are starting to complain that it's not as slow. All the calculated attacks from the start of the game? Waiting for your enemy to make a move and react to that constantly instead of doing anything yourself you mean.
If you can't adapt to the way the game is going, don't beg for it to be changed back. Switch on a little more, and you can find it's still very much possible to be calculating and have a strategy while playing aggressive.

You are wrong. Over 20 years of experience playing video games tells me that Turtle Meta is fake and poor excuse for not wanting to show skill, patience and use tactics. It doesn't exist.
New generation of young gamers doesn't want to put too much effort in, they want low risk - quick reward gaming experience in which they only need to keep smashing same button in order to feel skillful and to win. Just so they can feel good about themselves.

I play relatively aggressively, but fighting against likes of Warloard, Lawbringer or Shugoki is real pleasure for me. Challenging and rewarding even when I loose.

Alustar.
11-30-2017, 08:24 AM
I disagree with that last statement about the 4v4... I was just playing tribute and it is next impossible to stop aramusha light spam from the front with a shamen attacking your side as an assassin. Just drop the Xbox controller when that happens cause you can't react fast enough to do anything. I'm no pro but both their total reps don't even add up to mine is its not like I'm new to this game. 1v1's might not be impossible but these new heros excel in 4v4. No lie almost every game the new heros were the top take down players no make what rep level on each side. Even some total rep 2 player with a 12 level shamen had 16 kills. Not sure how he got matched with our group as everyone else was rep 30-50.

I think the game is going down hill and it is not as fun anymore. I have been having a blast playing this since season 2, it was easily my favorite game and I couldn't wait for the Ronin. So disappointed. Now if you get into a game with lets say againt 3 shamen, which is quite normal now, why bother as it will be a slaughter no matter what level they are.

Maybe PC is different but here on Xbox both new heros out class everyone else. Season 3 wasn't like this. Even against the glad I never felt over matched from the start. As an assassin the light spam crap is ridiculous with the feints that keep the chain going. You want to make it balanced make everyone have a reflex guard then see how tough these new heros are compaired to the rest of the cast.

There is a difference between well coordinated attacks and mindless spam though. I currently run shaman and my friend runs musha. We communicate constantly, letting one another know when to back off or hold cover.
Combating a gank has always been hard, I personally think that the reason players have become more aggressive is due to more players becoming familiar with their hero's move sets. Now that we are coming up to the year mark muscle memory has become second nature in many cases.
If you have trouble fighting back against multiple opponents, I suggest finding in a custom match against several bots by yourself till you get more comfortable. It's possible, not easy, but possible.

Okita_Soji..
11-30-2017, 08:29 AM
In a game today I took down a raider and a shinobi 2v1 and a LB and shinobi 2v1 with my orochi. I'm not trying to brag but I survived thanks to revenge and luck. A later game a shamen and aramusha 2v1 and 2v1 with 2 aramushas I was dead in 2 sec. revenge never even came up either time.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 09:07 AM
Well, right now I am playing Dominion and there is this guy who his sending irritating Wow Wow texts because he being killed now and then. But why he is doing that? Because he is playing as Shaman and somehow believes he shoud win every fight.

He just tried to take away zone with only 1 bar of health left and I killed him easily. Guess what, he is completely surprised, how the hell I was able to kill him?

These cocky Millennials , what else to say :p

And you are somehow better, by generalising Millennials into one category and assuming the reason you gave is actual fact?
To be fair, this player does sound like a fool, but you've also proven yourself to be one with this comment.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 09:13 AM
You are wrong. Over 20 years of experience playing video games tells me that Turtle Meta is fake and poor excuse for not wanting to show skill, patience and use tactics. It doesn't exist.
New generation of young gamers doesn't want to put too much effort in, they want low risk - quick reward gaming experience in which they only need to keep smashing same button in order to feel skillful and to win. Just so they can feel good about themselves.

I play relatively aggressively, but fighting against likes of Warloard, Lawbringer or Shugoki is real pleasure for me. Challenging and rewarding even when I loose.

I think we have a very different idea of skill. If you call skill never ever throwing out a single attack yourself and waiting for easy parrys that is.
A lot more people complained about the turtle meta in season 1 and 2, not all young people. Stop generalising everyone, it doesn't help your case. A lot of adults on this forum would argue that there is/was a turtle meta.
the fact is, it might be showing patience, you could call it a tactic, but by no means is it fun to the vast majority of players. I'm a console player and the turtle meta was never huge here, but when you came across a player who did nothing but turtle it wasn't fun. If you where a hero with no openers, Beserker for example, you would always struggle to beat someone who never attacked and just waited for you. When you play a game, you want it to be fun.

Alustar.
11-30-2017, 09:23 AM
You are wrong. Over 20 years of experience playing video games tells me that Turtle Meta is fake and poor excuse for not wanting to show skill, patience and use tactics. It doesn't exist.
New generation of young gamers doesn't want to put too much effort in, they want low risk - quick reward gaming experience in which they only need to keep smashing same button in order to feel skillful and to win. Just so they can feel good about themselves.

I play relatively aggressively, but fighting against likes of Warloard, Lawbringer or Shugoki is real pleasure for me. Challenging and rewarding even when I loose.
And my 20+ years would say the opposite. It's not hard to block with certain classes and commit to the same repetitive combos from a block, never once making the first move.
Cheese tactics exist on both sides of the fence, bub. The real skill check in this game is adaptability and reaction to changing factors. That's why we have multiple attack vectors, where the typical fighting game has two, maybe three at best. But really, I see this game moving towards a balance, in that you are rewarded based on your class. it rewards aggressive and defensive players alike.

Also, 20+ years of gaming likely puts you in your thirties, which, coincidentally would make you a millennial as well. Might want to be careful climbing on that high horse

Vordred
11-30-2017, 09:58 AM
I must admit myself, I do not like the direction the game is taking. the devs seem to be trying to fix a problem, but going about it the wrong way. now we have a ton of fast attack, unblokables and 50/50 mix-ups. which can make the game very frustrating especially in 4V4. which is what most people play.

now yeah the turtle meta did exist, but the Problem was never that you could defend yourself well. it was that Parries guarantee good Damage, and dodge attacks to some extent too.
that is what led to starring contests, with no one wanting to attack first. because the reward for too high for being defensive and too costly for being aggressive.

what needed to happen, was removing the free GB off a parry, or the free heavy off a GB. and do some of the things they have done, like increase the chip, the can't superior block lights when OOS.

instead the devs answer was to add new characters that almost feel like they came from a different game, that just say F your defence, we will just smash through it. of course they also have really fast lights too, something people have been complaining about since the beta, but no we will add more of them.

and just to make it worse, we are now stuck in this really horrible spot, where the old cast are a bit screwed because the new cast can ignore the defence meta, but they can also take advantage of it, leaving the old cast in a Catch 22.

basically what it boils down to is the core mechanics need addressing to fix the fact that defence didn't just reward you with not taking damage, but also rewards you with dealing damage, instead, we got characters that ignore the defence meta, but that can also abuse it too.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 09:59 AM
And my 20+ years would say the opposite. It's not hard to block with certain classes and commit to the same repetitive combos from a block, never once making the first move.
Cheese tactics exist on both sides of the fence, bub. The real skill check in this game is adaptability and reaction to changing factors. That's why we have multiple attack vectors, where the typical fighting game has two, maybe three at best. But really, I see this game moving towards a balance, in that you are rewarded based on your class. it rewards aggressive and defensive players alike.

My 15 years would agree with you. But, apparently because I'm 21 and a "Millennial" my influence on this game and other games will always be negative :/ Just because my reactions would be faster than Mr. No Defense Meta lol

guor6800
11-30-2017, 10:03 AM
The slower style of fighting you where talking about has a name: The Turtle Meta. Players complained that it was not fun to play as, and that everyone hated turtles so Ubisoft have listened and these recent heroes are designed to combat the turtle meta. I think the game is headed in a very good direction with the combat right now, but also believe that Ubisoft has a lot of work to do in ironing out all the bugs and issues the game has.
What we can learn from this thread is that no matter what, the community will never be happy. We are finally putting the turtle meta behind us, but now people are starting to complain that it's not as slow. All the calculated attacks from the start of the game? Waiting for your enemy to make a move and react to that constantly instead of doing anything yourself you mean.
If you can't adapt to the way the game is going, don't beg for it to be changed back. Switch on a little more, and you can find it's still very much possible to be calculating and have a strategy while playing aggressive.

Defence meta isn't going to be addressed by introducing new meta "breaking" champions. They tried to do the same with freaking cent in season 2. The results are well-known.

As long as defensive mechanics remain unchanged turtle meta will be coming side by side with the game. If you don't believe me try opening a turtling shammy yourself.

If parry doesn't get reworked, they can introduce One punch man as a hero and defence meta will still be here.

Nothing personal there dude I 've just seen you spam this "defence meta being fixed" bull everywhere.

Have a good day.

bananaflow2017
11-30-2017, 10:07 AM
Yes thats a problem. Basicly this game envolved in this way cuz of the turtles mentioned before. I dunno everyone in this discussion allready played this game when this was a problem, but it was ridiculus. I faced wardens never making a move just waiting for a parry. Warlords doing nothing except headbutt light ans turteling. Conqs only shieldbashing+turteling.
Many players were tired of duels 2 people starring each other and waiting the other one to do sth.
Now we have hot many characters who can beat this Meta and give this game a little bit more action.
Sadly this results in a spammy playstyle.
The question is: what can be done to adjust this not resulting in people turteling at?

Meanwhile turteling is still an issue...

Vordred
11-30-2017, 10:22 AM
Yes thats a problem. Basicly this game envolved in this way cuz of the turtles mentioned before. I dunno everyone in this discussion allready played this game when this was a problem, but it was ridiculus. I faced wardens never making a move just waiting for a parry. Warlords doing nothing except headbutt light ans turteling. Conqs only shieldbashing+turteling.
Many players were tired of duels 2 people starring each other and waiting the other one to do sth.
Now we have hot many characters who can beat this Meta and give this game a little bit more action.
Sadly this results in a spammy playstyle.
The question is: what can be done to adjust this not resulting in people turteling at?

Meanwhile turteling is still an issue...

as posted a few mins ago, it's to take away the free damage off good defence, not getting hit/not taking chip/draining their stam, should be the reward for good defence, not I'm going to smash you with a free heavy attack because defended myself.

as i said before, the problem was never that you could defend yourself well, it was the starring contest of no one wanting to attack because a parry was the safest way to do damage. so no one wants to attack for fear of being punished.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 10:40 AM
Defence meta isn't going to be addressed by introducing new meta "breaking" champions. They tried to do the same with freaking cent in season 2. The results are well-known.

As long as defensive mechanics remain unchanged turtle meta will be coming side by side with the game. If you don't believe me try opening a turtling shammy yourself.

If parry doesn't get reworked, they can introduce One punch man as a hero and defence meta will still be here.

Nothing personal there dude I 've just seen you spam this "defence meta being fixed" bull everywhere.

Have a good day.

No it won't be broken soley by that, but it is setting the stage for the future. Cent came in too early, and yeah his kit is poorly designed. When the reworks finally arrive, things will really start to roll. But on the other hand, we where told about a conq rework as far back as Season 2, and it's been a massive time to wait. It was always after "the defensive meta patch", but that patch has been rolled out in stages. When it is finalised, these champions will fit in nicely with the crowd hopefully.

I haven't come across a turtling Shaman, but I don't think I would have too much of a problem. I've always found a way to break open turtles, as annoying as it is.

But the thing is, it is not bull. The fixes are coming, you just have to be patient. But I'm not taking this personal. I'm an Aussie, and just love a good debate.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-30-2017, 11:05 AM
My 15 years would agree with you. But, apparently because I'm 21 and a "Millennial" my influence on this game and other games will always be negative :/ Just because my reactions would be faster than Mr. No Defense Meta lol

Well, what do you guys expect?

It seems that you would like slow heros to open up just so you get spam lights and get your win. It doesn't work like that and you know it.

Being defensive is legitimate tactics, especially when you have game with much faster/deadlier assasins than they are supposed to be.

Take examples from real world and gaming.

1. Snipers or those using bolt action rifle were always labeled as campers in COD games but what you want them to do? Rush at someone carrying a Thompson submachine gun? Just so you can get a free kill? So those who rush forward would always complain and demand that those with inferior weapon rush as well. How convenient, isn't it?

2. Do you watch boxing? If you ever watched Klitschko fight, you know that there are different fighting styles depending on your size, stamina etc...He couldn't fight fast or too much offensive. But he was still good and appreciated amongst many. Same applies to some heroes in for honor. You want Lawbringer or Conquer to rush and attack with his low stamina and slow attacks? Well, why would they? To be light spammed into oblivion with Orrochi?

I understand that fighting maybe was too defensive at the beginning. I wasn't there so I will take your word. But during season 3 and now in season 4, I do not see any evidence of defensive meta except for usual and reasonable defensive tactics used by slower and stamina limited heroes. Hell, based on what I can tell, Centurion and Aramusha are worst turtles of them all. And they supposedly here to break other turtles? Don't make me laugh.

At least defensive tactics and slower heroes are not the cancer such as lightweight heroes which are superior when it comes to abusing connection issues ( sometimes intentionally! ) and light spam on PS4. And every day you can see dozens of connection abusers....

guor6800
11-30-2017, 11:10 AM
No it won't be broken soley by that, but it is setting the stage for the future. Cent came in too early, and yeah his kit is poorly designed. When the reworks finally arrive, things will really start to roll. But on the other hand, we where told about a conq rework as far back as Season 2, and it's been a massive time to wait. It was always after "the defensive meta patch", but that patch has been rolled out in stages. When it is finalised, these champions will fit in nicely with the crowd hopefully.

I haven't come across a turtling Shaman, but I don't think I would have too much of a problem. I've always found a way to break open turtles, as annoying as it is.

But the thing is, it is not bull. The fixes are coming, you just have to be patient. But I'm not taking this personal. I'm an Aussie, and just love a good debate.

I never denied the fact that the devs are trying to get us fixes. I also get that a major part of the community is on "HURR DURR OP HEROES UBIFAIL CRAP" mode and is very difficult to keep a mob happy.

But... Many of us have heard so many soons from those devs with no delivery that this starts to become a mockery.
I mean that after both betas they assured us that connectivity won't be a problem. Game launched and sometimes was literally impossible to finish a match with friends. And we 're talking about a triple A multiplayer online title. Yeah DS are coming soon but how much faith can I have in them to do it properly?

The first post about parry being op was around the end of February. Still waiting.

Orochi promised reworked post with 20 pages or so during season 2 same with conq. And that was about 5 months ago.

Patience is running out for many people out there.

ChampionRuby50g
11-30-2017, 11:42 AM
Well, what do you guys expect?

It seems that you would like slow heros to open up just so you get spam lights and get your win. It doesn't work like that and you know it.

Being defensive is legitimate tactics, especially when you have game with much faster/deadlier assasins than they are supposed to be.

Take examples from real world and gaming.

1. Snipers or those using bolt action rifle were always labeled as campers in COD games but what you want them to do? Rush at someone carrying a Thompson submachine gun? Just so you can get a free kill? So those who rush forward would always complain and demand that those with inferior weapon rush as well. How convenient, isn't it?

2. Do you watch boxing? If you ever watched Klitschko fight, you know that there are different fighting styles depending on your size, stamina etc...He couldn't fight fast or too much offensive. But he was still good and appreciated amongst many. Same applies to some heroes in for honor. You want Lawbringer or Conquer to rush and attack with his low stamina and slow attacks? Well, why would they? To be light spammed into oblivion with Orrochi?

I understand that fighting maybe was too defensive at the beginning. I wasn't there so I will take your word. But during season 3 and now in season 4, I do not see any evidence of defensive meta except for usual and reasonable defensive tactics used by slower and stamina limited heroes. Hell, based on what I can tell, Centurion and Aramusha are worst turtles of them all. And they supposedly here to break other turtles? Don't make me laugh.

At least defensive tactics and slower heroes are not the cancer such as lightweight heroes which are superior when it comes to abusing connection issues ( sometimes intentionally! ) and light spam on PS4. And every day you can see dozens of connection abusers....

I Do know, because i have 105 reps and according to FHTracker one of the highest skilled players in my region. So it seems like I do have a lot of experience with this game and it's mechanics.

1. It's a fighting mash-up game of many different era's thrown into one. Cod is a complete different game, complete different style. When I used to play Mw2 I could quickscope with the best of them, never complained at been killed by someone with "Reg Guns". But to most if they couldn't, running at someone with a reg gun would be considered stupid. They can choose how to play, but they would be playing in a stupid way if they where not as skilled.

2. I don't watch on regular as I don't have the means to besides the pub, so I wouldn't go unless it's a big event. But, I have a rep 37 Lawbringer, and I have been more than successful when playing aggressively with him, as well as been strong in defense. It's all about knowing your hero inside and out, what to do and when. An orochi can try and light spam me if they want, Just easy parry's and harsh damage for them.

When Cent was first intoduced, he was sold as the hero to break open turtles. At the start of Season 2, that was exactly what he did. But once players adapted, and most do, players realized that it was more effective to be a turtle with him due to the superior parry punishes. I don't know if you where here before Cent got his major nerf, but before that one parry near a wall was enough to lock most players into an infinte wall combo. All because he was a great turtle, which further reinforced the strength of parry and that meta.

I'm not denying that connection plays a major part, and due to latency and time snap removal these light attacks come in a lot quicker than they should at times. What I am trying to get at is that right now in For Honor we are in the middle period of the devs trying to fix an annoying meta. I never said that the light spam was a good thing, and in a thread a while ago even questioned why the Devs thought it to be a good idea too add in a hero (aramusha) whose main feature was a infinite light combo. You just assume that because I am younger than you I want it to be easy, but that is not the case. You just made yourself sound like a grumpy old fart who hates when younger people are better than him. (:

PDXGorechild
11-30-2017, 12:22 PM
Ironically it seems the only unskilled one is the OP.

As many others have said, It is possible to block both of the new classes even in 4v4 with players who haven't got optimal latency. I know this because I do it all the time. It's difficult at times, yeah, but not impossible, even with reflex guard.

Have a cup of coffee and practice.

Knight_Raime
11-30-2017, 12:45 PM
Well, what do you guys expect?

It seems that you would like slow heros to open up just so you get spam lights and get your win. It doesn't work like that and you know it.

Being defensive is legitimate tactics, especially when you have game with much faster/deadlier assasins than they are supposed to be.

Take examples from real world and gaming.

1. Snipers or those using bolt action rifle were always labeled as campers in COD games but what you want them to do? Rush at someone carrying a Thompson submachine gun? Just so you can get a free kill? So those who rush forward would always complain and demand that those with inferior weapon rush as well. How convenient, isn't it?

2. Do you watch boxing? If you ever watched Klitschko fight, you know that there are different fighting styles depending on your size, stamina etc...He couldn't fight fast or too much offensive. But he was still good and appreciated amongst many. Same applies to some heroes in for honor. You want Lawbringer or Conquer to rush and attack with his low stamina and slow attacks? Well, why would they? To be light spammed into oblivion with Orrochi?

I understand that fighting maybe was too defensive at the beginning. I wasn't there so I will take your word. But during season 3 and now in season 4, I do not see any evidence of defensive meta except for usual and reasonable defensive tactics used by slower and stamina limited heroes. Hell, based on what I can tell, Centurion and Aramusha are worst turtles of them all. And they supposedly here to break other turtles? Don't make me laugh.

At least defensive tactics and slower heroes are not the cancer such as lightweight heroes which are superior when it comes to abusing connection issues ( sometimes intentionally! ) and light spam on PS4. And every day you can see dozens of connection abusers....

What anyone should expect is a fair and equal consideration of their opinion. Age certainly has no barring in a debate. If you're hanging the entire legitimacy of your view based on age alone it just shows that you ironically enough, lack maturity for someone suposedly your age. Not to mention it also shows how thin your actual argument is.

So no one here is saying that defensive/passive play or in your own words "skilled/tactical" play isn't a legitimate way to play. The point was and still is that we as a community approached the devs and stated that we were not fond of how rewarding defensive play was compared to someone who takes the lead in a fight. If you are a player of relatively decent reflexes and reactions the most optimal play hands down is to be defensive. Wether you agree with this or not is irrelevant. The devs have decided they want to tone down the rewards for playing defensive and slightly up the capability of the attacker via better designed kits.
The rest of your post just shows how little you actually understand the issues at hand let alone the terms you are trying to use. I'll ignore the constant belittlement you make at the end and through out the post. It serves no purpose and wouldn't be very productive for me to just flip the table on you.

The "defensive meta" is an over arching term that involves the base game mechanics. For instance we have combos in move lists that really don't get used. This is because light attacks when blocked stop the combo. It was only until recently that they changed this for people who are out of stamina. the other major reason combos see little use is because they're very easy to see coming and thus parry or punish. Then there is the parry mechanic. Which is arguably the main reason playing ultra defensive is still successful.

Parries are not difficult once you understand a heros speeds. Parries are also extremely safe because even if someone attempts to bait a parry out of you it's still easily cancelable on your end. So you don't have to commit to a bad read. and thus you're not punished. Parries reward currently too much damage. Most parries give you a guard break. Which in turn gives a heavy on most heros. That or you could ledge someone for an instant kill. Point is the mechanic is too easy, too safe. and too rewarding. Other things have a hand in the defensive meta as well such as chip damage being negligable (until recent) critical health regeneration (removed recently) allowed someone to turtle up when lethal damage was possible and wait until their health was back to attempt something again. and if their attempt failed at that point they wouldn't die because they had regened enough health to be out of lethal territory.

Bad kit design is another major factor. Most OG heros didn't have a fully fleshed out kit with basically too situational moves. Those unfortunate enough to not have an unblockable had no way of forcing open a defensive player. Thus they were considered bad for a really long time. and still are. The dlc heros (kit wise) show that the devs understand what a good kit means. It's not just about having fast moves. It's about having mix up options. and proper kit flow. Gladiator and shaman are both prime examples of what kit flow is and what other kits should look like.

Aramusha does not benefit in anyway from turtling. He gets nothing off of parries outside his OOS punish. Blade blockade is currently garbage because the only consistent option gives 10 damage. top heavy heavily relies on what character you're fighting down to the move you blade blockaded. His side heavies only land on 3 heros total. and those attacks are generally avoided because of how unsafe they are. and his kick gives absolutely nothing unless a surface is near by. So the fact that you consider him a turtle at all just shows that you really have no idea on what a turtle is.

The best heros for turtling in the game are actually: centurion (purely due to parry punishes,) conq, and shugoki. Finally you can really quit QQing about light attack spam. If you actually know what spam means in the context of a fighting game anyways. Spam from anything is highly punishable in fighters. If you keep dying to it you're not as good as you think you are. And you're taking the poor mans route of blaming others or the game direction rather than looking inward and trying to better yourself.

I'm a console player with barely average internet. i'm probably not even an above average player. I absolutely punish the hell out of anyone who spams. Aramusha light spam doesn't work. And because I am very familiar with his kit his feint mix ups don't work on me. Shaman's who let their jump attacks/pounces fly or always auto dash attack in an attempt to dodge an attack are dodge attacked themselves or GBed/parried. If you are playing against an actual competent player with any hero you're going to need mix ups. Or you're not going to win.

Oupyz
11-30-2017, 03:18 PM
Im 36 almost 37 and i tottaly disagree with the op i can react to all attacks from all classes , i play on pc and turtle meta stil very very strong but thanks to shaman its being less abused finaly and thank you ubisoft for that character duels are much more fun.

On a side note parry reward still need to go as soon as possible

David_gorda
11-30-2017, 03:25 PM
Im 36 almost 37 and i tottaly disagree with the op i can react to all attacks from all classes , i play on pc and turtle meta stil very very strong but thanks to shaman its being less abused finaly and thank you ubisoft for that character duels are much more fun.

On a side note parry reward still need to go as soon as possible try playing against ligjtspamming peacekeeper or aramusha on console and tell us how fun it was.

Oupyz
11-30-2017, 03:41 PM
Console was never my thing .

Alustar.
11-30-2017, 03:53 PM
try playing against ligjtspamming peacekeeper or aramusha on console and tell us how fun it was.

I've personally helped a few players adapt to dealing with excessive light spam, it's not hard, just takes practice. I'm on PS4 if you want help.

David_gorda
11-30-2017, 03:59 PM
I've personally helped a few players adapt to dealing with excessive light spam, it's not hard, just takes practice. I'm on PS4 if you want help.
Sure we can play next week, you play heavy or vanguard and i play peacekeeper and you show me how you win hehe ;)

Vakris_One
11-30-2017, 04:23 PM
Sure we can play next week, you play heavy or vanguard and i play peacekeeper and you show me how you win hehe ;)
Kensei is very good against light spam because of his dodge strikes which then lead into his mixup game and the Shugo trades quite nicely against someone who is overly reliant on throwing out lights. A Shugo can even use his hyper armour to GB through a light and if near a wall it's huggin' time :)

bob333e
11-30-2017, 06:20 PM
I'm sorry, but "light spam" (in whatever context this was thought of about) does not really work in For Honor.

Aramusha's side and top lights are quick enough to be chained in succession in a top-light-top pattern, and in no way this classifies as "light attack spam". And when a feinting game is incorporated in there, it becomes even less and less of a spamming process. It's actual tactic being used to confuse you and land more hits. I understand that assassin class with reflex guard have a major bug which can make it extra hard to block Aramusha's chain, but it's a game bug, not your opponent doing a spam. And to top this off, when you know this combo well, you'll see it coming, and you'll inconsciously block mostly on top to stop the chain. And you retake the upper hand.

Secondly, Shaman rarely spams. It's in fact the speed of her attacks, and how easily they are chained together (as someone pointed above, she has a great kit flow), and having many attacks cancellable and feintable. If anything, the genuine spam I have witnessed among Shaman players is the dodge attack spam left and right and these are usually easily shut down with parries.

The more important concern is actually the increased recent importance and presence of assassin and hybrid classes who, in general, have faster attacks than vanguard and heavy classes. Yet this in no way "breaks" the game, I think the game (I'm talking game mechanics) is fine as-is. Chip damage increased, health regen removed, CGB timing readjusted, stamina cost increased on many things, and dishonorable play in 1v1s is heavily punished (as of recent patch). But For Honor still needs a lot of things.

This game is still going strong, and with each addition of new and different characters, I cannot stress enough on the importance of practicing against them as level 3 bots in Custom Match mode, and trying them out in Practice Mode without having to purchase them. Level 3 bots exist for a reason which most people overlook because most people want to go brag and boast in PvP.

As for 4v4 modes, the issue, again, isn't how the characters were individually designed. It's how 4v4 in general was designed. It encourages gankfests more often than 1v1 encounters or 2v1s at most, and in For Honor, a 3v1 and a 4v1 is always a bad time. Even with Revenge. Don't judge yourself too harshly if you lose in a 3v1. Even less so when you get pushed off ledge / into an environmental hazard. For Honor is primarily a duelling game. You just...tried to survive. :)

dizzy-glad
11-30-2017, 06:28 PM
You don't need to go to a Custom Match to fight a lvl 3 bot of your choosing, unless you want to pick the map and adjust damage values.

In How to Play, there's Practice, and then choose Custom. You can pick the bot, pick the level, and every time one of you is killed, you respawn immediately instead of having to sit through the victory/defeat/new round announcements.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 06:31 PM
Good thinking, but I usually set 99 rounds with a 10-minute timer and zero damage. The absolute insane training mode. In overall, I stay for about 30-ish rounds in a row then I choose quit to take a break. :) The only time a round ends is either timeout (that's 10 minutes of nonstop combat) or ledge/enviro

And yes, good catch.... I do prefer some maps. The Shard, Viking Village, and Temple Garden are my favourite. ^^

David_gorda
11-30-2017, 06:37 PM
Good news, shaman nerfs and Will tracking nerf aswell next update.
I play shaman but i am happy it gets nerfed. Pray they nerf aramusha spam infinite combo soon to :)

I_loveMemes
11-30-2017, 07:22 PM
I played aramusha until i got him to rep 4 (when the 2xp were active) but after that he started getting boring the only thing he can do is spam and the full block I was excited for him but it turned out to be one of the most boring characters in the game so i started maining lawbringer and I'm also gathering for centurion

Sk8erdude47
11-30-2017, 08:26 PM
Yes, lag is a problem when it occurs but 400ms attacks aren't that much of a problem on PC under normal circumstances. Which streamers are dropping the game? Plenty of the big names are still here and going strong: Zero Craic, Daithe De Nogla, Havoc, Shmolty, Flookerson, Mege, Cartoonz, Tru3Tal3nt, Dear Gamer and others.

Characters like shaman/aramusha/pk are bad for the health of the game. Period.
Meh. Seems more like they're bad for you because you don't like them.[/QUOTE]

You sound like an idiot. Its not about not liking them, it's about the facts.
FACT: Shaman is the strongest character in the game still.
FACT: In the right hands, and the right game mode, it is nigh impossible, especially if its a 1v2 situation. Go on dominion and test that theory you got for yourself about how weak she is.
FACT: For Honor on console runs at 30 frames per second, which makes shaman un-reactable.
Im a total rep 60, i've been playing this game since the beta, for a little background. So don't be saying "ugh you just need to get gud" to people in this discussion, who have a legitamate problem with this character. Nobody cares if your good enough to counter shaman.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 09:17 PM
You sound like an idiot. Its not about not liking them, it's about the facts.
FACT: Shaman is the strongest character in the game still.
FACT: In the right hands, and the right game mode, it is nigh impossible, especially if its a 1v2 situation. Go on dominion and test that theory you got for yourself about how weak she is.
FACT: For Honor on console runs at 30 frames per second, which makes shaman un-reactable.
Im a total rep 60, i've been playing this game since the beta, for a little background. So don't be saying "ugh you just need to get gud" to people in this discussion, who have a legitamate problem with this character. Nobody cares if your good enough to counter shaman.

I've just read your message under another thread begging Ubisoft to completely remove Shaman from the game, and in here you're saying above she's completely unreactable on console.

I take it, you mostly focus on Dominion where, if you meet more than two Shamans on the opposing team, you tend to end up getting ganked by them, and you get little to no chance to defend yourself from them in particular. I get that.

Shaman's moveset isn't what's broken about her. It was damage values and tracking hitboxes. Which are still being looked into and will be updated again mid-December, effectively balancing her further.

During development of the Season 4 characters, they've put so much work on Shaman, and it shows. Yeah, she's not fully polished. But her kit is amazing, she's really different from the other heroes and because she's different, she poses a challenge to us. The very purpose about new season characters is to add fresh, new things to the roster. To have you say to them to completely delete her should make you think about how ridiculous, childish, and whiny this statement is.

Secondly, she's very reactable on console. I'm on PS4, and I've been improving, slow and steady, against level 3 Shaman bots. She's hard and fast, but she's not impossible to beat. Quite the contrary. Know your enemy, and you will defeat them. Blindfold yourself in rage and whine on, you accomplish nothing.

The issue in PvP isn't with Shaman, it's the connection issues, and when there are connection issues, honestly, every hero can be tedious to deal with. Take Gladiator's pokes. Take Centurion's Kick. Take Peacekeeper's zone. Take Nobushi's pokes. Take Shinobi's flips. What? you want Ubisoft to delete all these characters too?

Thirdly, using active offense against others in a discussion completely beats your role in said discussion, and completely refutes whatever point you were trying to make in the first place.

And before you low-ball into "shaman main defending his class" I'm a Warden main, and I do not own any DLC character. And I will not main her, ever. She makes a lot of things too easy with her amazing kit flow. Hence why inexperienced lackey newbies can use her more effectively than other heroes. She's swift and solid, and she hits hard too. But she's not my style.

xUVOGINx
12-01-2017, 12:35 AM
https://youtu.be/NkC9bT3eLpo

Oupyz
12-01-2017, 12:46 AM
I've just read your message under another thread begging Ubisoft to completely remove Shaman from the game, and in here you're saying above she's completely unreactable on console.

I take it, you mostly focus on Dominion where, if you meet more than two Shamans on the opposing team, you tend to end up getting ganked by them, and you get little to no chance to defend yourself from them in particular. I get that.

Shaman's moveset isn't what's broken about her. It was damage values and tracking hitboxes. Which are still being looked into and will be updated again mid-December, effectively balancing her further.

During development of the Season 4 characters, they've put so much work on Shaman, and it shows. Yeah, she's not fully polished. But her kit is amazing, she's really different from the other heroes and because she's different, she poses a challenge to us. The very purpose about new season characters is to add fresh, new things to the roster. To have you say to them to completely delete her should make you think about how ridiculous, childish, and whiny this statement is.

Secondly, she's very reactable on console. I'm on PS4, and I've been improving, slow and steady, against level 3 Shaman bots. She's hard and fast, but she's not impossible to beat. Quite the contrary. Know your enemy, and you will defeat them. Blindfold yourself in rage and whine on, you accomplish nothing.

The issue in PvP isn't with Shaman, it's the connection issues, and when there are connection issues, honestly, every hero can be tedious to deal with. Take Gladiator's pokes. Take Centurion's Kick. Take Peacekeeper's zone. Take Nobushi's pokes. Take Shinobi's flips. What? you want Ubisoft to delete all these characters too?

Thirdly, using active offense against others in a discussion completely beats your role in said discussion, and completely refutes whatever point you were trying to make in the first place.

And before you low-ball into "shaman main defending his class" I'm a Warden main, and I do not own any DLC character. And I will not main her, ever. She makes a lot of things too easy with her amazing kit flow. Hence why inexperienced lackey newbies can use her more effectively than other heroes. She's swift and solid, and she hits hard too. But she's not my style.

you are very correct the biggest issue right now is the connection issue i just played a duel vs a shugoki that made me rage quit his connection was going green red green red

and his light and heavy were all over my screen i couldn't even counter a normal guardbreak,, and thats on pc

yeah since removal of that timesnap thing everything went to hell , same heroes sometimes they attack normal sometimes the attack comes 100ms faster it really depend on people connection so my advice to everyone whinning this game is casual , u can't take it seriously it's very unstable on the network side for a fighting game so lets wait for dedicated server and after that we can look at the hero balance.

Ubisoft for god sake add that timesnap back will you already

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 12:56 AM
Meh. Seems more like they're bad for you because you don't like them.

You sound like an idiot. Its not about not liking them, it's about the facts.
FACT: Shaman is the strongest character in the game still.
FACT: In the right hands, and the right game mode, it is nigh impossible, especially if its a 1v2 situation. Go on dominion and test that theory you got for yourself about how weak she is.
FACT: For Honor on console runs at 30 frames per second, which makes shaman un-reactable.
Im a total rep 60, i've been playing this game since the beta, for a little background. So don't be saying "ugh you just need to get gud" to people in this discussion, who have a legitamate problem with this character. Nobody cares if your good enough to counter shaman.[/QUOTE]

So I guess all those times I've run my shaman and been blocked and parried consistently from a light attack means that person was just consistently lucky?
Players need to stop using the "this is unreactable" crutch. At almost a year into the game I think is safe to Suu both the developers and the players know fully well what is and isn't reactable. Instead of whining for nerfs, try asking for help.

Vakris_One
12-01-2017, 01:17 AM
You sound like an idiot.
Fair warning, I have already stopped taking you seriously right here. Anyone who chucks out insults instead of making their point politely and calmly has already lost the argument.