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View Full Version : Do payloads affect performance in FB vs. Actual



nearmiss
09-18-2004, 04:13 PM
I've often wondered, if the different guns/cannons choices in IL2-FB aircraft actually make any difference in performance.

I was reading an interview with a famous Russian fighter pilot ACE describing how they took off the wing mounted guns on the P-39 to lower the weight of the aircraft to improve performance. He also indicated the aircraft was just as affective with nose guns only.

It just tweaked my interest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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nearmiss
09-18-2004, 04:13 PM
I've often wondered, if the different guns/cannons choices in IL2-FB aircraft actually make any difference in performance.

I was reading an interview with a famous Russian fighter pilot ACE describing how they took off the wing mounted guns on the P-39 to lower the weight of the aircraft to improve performance. He also indicated the aircraft was just as affective with nose guns only.

It just tweaked my interest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://avsims.com/portal/modules/liens/images/banner.gif (http://avsims.com/portal/)

p1ngu666
09-18-2004, 04:23 PM
wing racks/gunpods make planes stall more in fb, dunno about irl
extra guns are useless if u cant get em on target, hence removing them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

also, p47 has wrong bomb loadouts, should have 2x1000 + 500 centre, atm we got 2x500 and 1x1000 centre, so one hasto wonder how that happened and how we got realist performance for that loadout.

i do wonder if theres any diff between ab500 and sc500 in terms of drag/weight (and other similer bombs etc)

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Zen--
09-18-2004, 04:27 PM
Personally in game I don't think so.

While I don't have any tracks to prove it offhand at the moment, I have seen a number of things that would lead me to think it's not modelled, or if it is that the change to the FM is slight and its very difficult to notice.

Example: 190A9 climbing at 20m/s when carrying 50% fuel and an SC500, which corresponds exactly to its climb rate at 25% fuel and no bomb at all.

190A5 having same turn rate, stall characteristics and climb rate with MG/FF removed, same stats as when they are carried.
(Real 190 pilots did ask on some occasions to have the outer guns removed for the exact same reasons the P39 pilots did.)

FW190 D9 by default carries two inboard cannons in the wings and has the standard outboard guns removed, I think mostly to increase performance.



I can't say for sure...but I think there is no significant difference, at least for the 190's which I am very familar with.

-Zen-


Edit: I do agree with P1ngu666, underwing cannon pods DO affect performance. Bombs, rockets and heavier guns (mk108 wing roots) or guns removed don't seem to though.

Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that on some planes certain loadouts do make a change and certain loadouts do not.

WUAF_Badsight
09-18-2004, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:
I've often wondered, if the different guns/cannons choices in IL2-FB aircraft actually make any difference in performance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutly

even your ammo weight is moddeled (plane is lighter after firing all your ammo)

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p1ngu666
09-18-2004, 07:42 PM
zen, do u know how much removin outer guns would gain? irl i mean..
wonderin how much of dora's edge over a comes from less guns

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VW-IceFire
09-18-2004, 08:55 PM
Yes payloads affect performance.

Carrying a SC-500 bomb definately changes the handling characteristics. I don't want to ever fight with a bomb like that attached to the bottom. Its just not practical...the entire center of gravity changes.

Also adding wing guns and other things degrade handling if not overall performance. The 109's and 190's are prime examples as well as the P-63. You'll also notice some differences between the agility of the P-39Q-10 with no wing guns and the Q-1 with wing guns (although there are other changes).

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Zen--
09-18-2004, 10:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
zen, do u know how much removin outer guns would gain? irl i mean..
wonderin how much of dora's edge over a comes from less guns
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't say accurately...my opinion is that the D9's performance is hardwired as-is and because you can't change the weapon arrangement, you can't really say for sure.

In my opinion, the A5 handles the same with or without MG/FF...so as a rule I keep them because I haven't ever seen anything that gives me a sure feeling about it. Flying an A9 with default guns or MK108's feels to me to have no difference in performance either, but there would be some difference in real life.

Definately there is a difference with gun pods, thats one thing I am sure of. On the Antons or F8, flying with a bomb doesn't appear to change top speed or climb rate, though I do agree with IceFire that turning with them doesn't feel so great. Since I don't turn with Antons generally anyway, in a way having a bomb but keeping the same climb rate appears to me effectively like not having a bomb at all...for climbing or running away mind you.


So would a Dora fly worse if it had 4 guns in the wings? In this game, I don't think you would be able to tell the difference to be honest.

-Zen-

p1ngu666
09-18-2004, 11:06 PM
fair enuff, maybe another 190 flier will know specs from irl

btw u do go slower wid bombs

http://www.uploadit.org/gallery/11470

maybe ill try speed tests at 2k, which is my crusin level for jabo. mind u i cruise at full banna's or near that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

prefer dive bomb, cos bombs skip more on land now, so harder to hit target

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Zen--
09-18-2004, 11:12 PM
Looks good, thanks for the links.

I'll take this as a yes that speed changes depending on bombs or not. I feel like this is new in 2.04 or perhaps AEP itself though, because I can't say I have ever noticed this in the past.

&lt;S&gt;

-Zen-

p1ngu666
09-18-2004, 11:23 PM
takes a while to get to top speed whatever
i short cut'ed the time by diving to 500kph or so, 190 will get there, but diving quicker and im still gonna accelorate to max

a8/a9 are lightweight jabo with only 1 bomb.

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p1ngu666
09-18-2004, 11:26 PM
mind, 2 extra cannon for straffing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

a5/6 maybe 4 can take 4x 50's and a centreline and keep the outer cannons on one of the loadout types

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TX-EcoDragon
09-20-2004, 02:15 PM
There are many things it would do to a real aircraft that it doesn't seem to do in the sim. Roll inertia is a big one with regard to maneuverability. The less mass you carry in the wings the more responsive the aircraft will be to starting and stopping rolls. There will be a bit less rotational stability in spins and such so recovery should be faster. There would of course be less yaw oscillations from the lack of recoil in the wings (though you don't have to fire everything if you don't want so this is rather irrelevant).

The weight itself does seem modeled, but the only place that things seem to change is in the increased tendency of the aircraft's tendency to snap/stall.

The way Zen flies (energy retaining) I imagine he shouldn't notice too much difference. . . with me and my tendency to fly at as close to 0 kmh as possible I guess I notice it more.
:-)

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Zen--
09-20-2004, 04:44 PM
Don't you think our styles are the other way around Eco? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

BBB_Hyperion
09-24-2004, 12:47 PM
Well you can df nicely with p39 n1 with bomb. Can this be right ?

Roll inertia mentioned by Eco is a big problem and i think that this is 1 major point in the all planes roll the same complaining. The roll
maneuverability is almost useless in this sim cause of this questionable modeled roll inertia.

For payloads they reduce topspeed and shift cg on most planes (stally).

k5054
09-24-2004, 02:21 PM
Over on the A-9 thread right now Hyperion has posted a chart which answers some questions. It shows the drag of D-9 as 3% less than A-8 due to the missing outer wing guns (Out of a larger saving in drag due mostly to cooling). That should be worth about 10kph.