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bob333e
11-28-2017, 12:17 AM
If you're someone who never mained a Shaman but feel the need to practice against one, I'm one of those, and here's what I've noticed so far. It would also help me (and others) a lot if more people contributed to this discussion and more people knew tricks how to counter Shaman easier. Apologies in advance if there already was another thread about this, if so please do point me there. I play on PS4.

- Shaman's only real deadly combo is a series of left-right mixups that if successfully connects every hit, opens up Blood Trance and she can then do the pounce. She cannot do the dreaded pounce before this combo. This combo opens up with two side attacks and a top light; as soon as you see that, roll backwards because most players doing this combo won't be able to cancel it. You won't let her go into Blood Trance and she cannot do the pounce.

- Her dash/jumping heavy attack has a delayed attack hitbox, you dodge a little bit later than her jumping animation, and you avoid the hit. Dodging at the same time as when she jumps won't do. I just cannot tell most of the time whether it's a left or right attack. Suggestions here how to tell which side can help much. I recommend either dodging or parrying this attack, don't simply block because she will then do the side-dodge-spinning-heavy if her jumping heavy failed to hit you.

- Her pounce (if activated upon entering Blood Trance) can only be safely dodged if you're two characters away at least. That means like 3 meters away. Closer than that and the broken hitbox will connect. Full block won't save you either (I tried with Warlord), and Revenge won't do. I understand this is getting fixed mid-december.

- If you've been hit by headbutt bash, don't attempt attacking right after, because her top-light will connect faster than anything. And she can chain her combo from there, in an attempt to activate Blood Trance.

- Straight-up random quick jabs are often countered by her side-dodge-spinning-heavy (whatever it's called). Try to feint a heavy then parry her side dodge attack.

- The more skilled players will often feint the unblockable into a GB. If you fell for it once, expect it again. Don't try to parry the unblockable.

- If you see her dodging forward before you even attacked, she's likely attempting a headbutt bash. It's your only sign of seeing it because once activated it's a tad bit too fast to react to. If you dodge the headbutt it's a free GB.

More things will come to mind as time goes on and as I meet more Shamans and memorize her more, but any other thoughts on the matter are thoroughly appreciated. :)

Ackturi
11-28-2017, 12:46 AM
If you're someone who never mained a Shaman but feel the need to practice against one, I'm one of those, and here's what I've noticed so far. It would also help me (and others) a lot if more people contributed to this discussion and more people knew tricks how to counter Shaman easier. Apologies in advance if there already was another thread about this, if so please do point me there. I play on PS4.

- Shaman's only real deadly combo is a series of left-right mixups that if successfully connects every hit, opens up Blood Trance and she can then do the pounce. She cannot do the dreaded pounce before this combo. This combo opens up with two side attacks and a top light; as soon as you see that, roll backwards because most players doing this combo won't be able to cancel it. You won't let her go into Blood Trance and she cannot do the pounce.

- Her dash/jumping heavy attack has a delayed attack hitbox, you dodge a little bit later than her jumping animation, and you avoid the hit. Dodging at the same time as when she jumps won't do. I just cannot tell most of the time whether it's a left or right attack. Suggestions here how to tell which side can help much. I recommend either dodging or parrying this attack, don't simply block because she will then do the side-dodge-spinning-heavy if her jumping heavy failed to hit you.

- Her pounce (if activated upon entering Blood Trance) can only be safely dodged if you're two characters away at least. That means like 3 meters away. Closer than that and the broken hitbox will connect. Full block won't save you either (I tried with Warlord), and Revenge won't do. I understand this is getting fixed mid-december.

- If you've been hit by headbutt bash, don't attempt attacking right after, because her top-light will connect faster than anything. And she can chain her combo from there, in an attempt to activate Blood Trance.

- Straight-up random quick jabs are often countered by her side-dodge-spinning-heavy (whatever it's called). Try to feint a heavy then parry her side dodge attack.

- The more skilled players will often feint the unblockable into a GB. If you fell for it once, expect it again. Don't try to parry the unblockable.

- If you see her dodging forward before you even attacked, she's likely attempting a headbutt bash. It's your only sign of seeing it because once activated it's a tad bit too fast to react to. If you dodge the headbutt it's a free GB.

More things will come to mind as time goes on and as I meet more Shamans and memorize her more, but any other thoughts on the matter are thoroughly appreciated. :)

Really good information here. I'm waiting to see how shaman evolve after the patch. The unblockable heavy finisher can soft feint into anything but a light attack from what i've seen. Most go-to is the gb because it's free heavy. I've also seen side dash attacks from unblockable instead of gb but they can also pounce or do the forward dash attack from it. (if you continue to counter UB feint GB they most likely will let it go unless they are a veteran player)

The headbutt is 100% confirmed double light if shaman timed right there's no avoiding it.

Tracking will be fixed (hopefully they don't screw up) where the pounce will be easier to dodge safely.

Another tip, some heroes can dodge the unblockable if you dodge same side. (wait a bit so they don't gb you) so if you don't want to go for the parry, dodge and get ready to block the bleed after. (I've seen a lot of shaman forget about the bleed after UB)

Most bleed hits in a combo will go for top light (fastest bleed stance) just watch for the block.

EDIT: I also wish they allowed you to hit revenge during the bite (shinobi's sickle rain can be revenged out of and so can cent knockdown iirc).

WABO423
11-28-2017, 12:51 AM
Her blood trance is activated by you being affected by bleed (does not have to be from her)

she can attempt to procure bleed by using a light attack at the end of any of her combos. (Heavy, heavy. Light, heavy. Light, light, heavy.)

Heavy opener can be soft feinted into a bleed poke from any direction

The second hit of her zone attack can be canceled into a bleed poke

Or she can preform a deflect for a free bleed attack

Her heavy unblockable is only from the left side.

In my personal experience with playing and against her is that playing aggressively against er is the best way to shut her down. If you go on the defensive your done.
Most of her start ups are very slow and a quick light attack will stop her.

To counter the jumping attack simply dodge/dodge attack itís fast especially up close. The timing is pretty strick but can be done with ease once you figure it out. Donít try to block because it can come from any side.

To counter her pounce a timed light attack or dodge/dodge attack will stop her itís pretty easily punished. Also should be noted if you are affected by bleed and she misses a pounce she can pounce again so watch out for that. (She can only pounce 2 times while you are bleeding)

bob333e
11-28-2017, 01:34 AM
Thank you both a ton!

@Ackturi I agree her headbutt confirms at least 1 top light, in some cases double light if your opponent times the first attack earlier, or if you're wallsplatted.

I'd avoid dodging the unblockable because as you dodge she can feint and get a free GB, GB cannot be countered if you're in dodge animation, unless on some heroes like Kensei where they have very good side dodge attacks that can activate extra hyperarmor. I play Warden, so for me dodging her unblockable is a no-go. It's either wait for the parry flash, or counter a feinted GB, or roll backwards and reset to neutral instead of taking the upper hand and countering her. And yes, the bleed hit itself is mostly a top light, which was comboed with two side lights, and which acts as opener for two further attacks, effectively draining your health to half and she hasn't even pounced yet.

@WABO423 excellent information! I forgot the pounce is cancellable with a quick top light since it doesn't have hyperarmor. I guess it's your only solution if you're less than 3 meters away and she's about to pounce, because otherwise you can't dodge it. Hopefully this is getting fixed properly.

As for playing aggressively, I've met Shaman players that spam the side-dash-spinning-heavy left and right, leaving you little room to get aggressive up front; and since they are heavies, you can't GB her out of the animation. You must resort to blocking/parrying, then proceed to go aggressive afterwards.

I've rarely met players who use deflect, I need to train more against the deflect. Deflect is definitely in another league. And if it guarantees a free bleed, I think this becomes her second-deadliest thing, right after the pounce.

Her heavy unblockable is always from your right side, though it's cancellable far into the animation so I'm still icking up on the timing. I'll eventually get used to it though. For the jumping attack, sometimes block has worked but only because I guessed right in which direction the attack will come from. You're right, it's generally better to just dodge it. I just wish there was a way to tell from which direction she's going to jump....

CandleInTheDark
11-28-2017, 01:55 AM
I have her at rep 2 though I am holding off using her more until the tracking is fixed as it feels cheap and I don't want to come to rely on something like that in its current state when a fix is in the works, she isn't going to be my main but she might be a consideration if my team needs both an assassin and a disabler (thinking her headbutt in xv1 situations here, valk is my pure disabler).

The best way of dealing with the side dodge is to block or parry, yeah, I use that as a whiff punish though so when I do it your best bet is trying to block the second heavy or the bleed at the end of it,that is my most common route to bleed with deflect behind that. From my side of the screen when using the jumping attack, there is a difference in how she moves her arms, I don't know if that comes before the red indicator but if it does that is a warning if you look for it. The point on aggression is a good one in general though as you pointed out you have to judge that against what else she is doing and not being punished yourself, her bleed cancels are short range and she can be hit out of the pounce.

bob333e
11-28-2017, 02:04 AM
I have her at rep 2 though I am holding off using her more until the tracking is fixed as it feels cheap and I don't want to come to rely on something like that in its current state when a fix is in the works, she isn't going to be my main but she might be a consideration if my team needs both an assassin and a disabler (thinking her headbutt in xv1 situations here, valk is my pure disabler).

The best way of dealing with the side dodge is to block or parry, yeah, I use that as a whiff punish though so when I do it your best bet is trying to block the second heavy or the bleed at the end of it. From my side of the screen when using the jumping attack, there is a difference in how she moves her arms, I don't know if that comes before the red indicator but if it does that is a warning if you look for it. The point on aggression is a good one in general though as you pointed out you have to judge that against what else she is doing and not being punished yourself, her bleed cancels are short range and she can be hit out of the pounce.

Thanks a lot for hopping in, a pleasure to have you in here, Candle! :)

Interesting information; she's weak to Valkyrie, unfortunately I don't main Valkyrie and my chances of countering Shaman with Valkyrie would be way less than with my Warden. I'm currently rep 10 level 15, want to try to hit rep 12 this week.

And yup for the side dodge, if I got hit the first time, I'll feint a heavy to bait a second side dodge which I will then parry and go from there. For the jumping attack, I barely notice anything from her arms; in fact I don't have adequate time to look at them haha. That jump is too fast and reaction time is too punishing. I'll eventually get used to that timing. It's a much safer bet to dodge than block anyway, if I block I am staggered a bit, she can squeeze a light attack after the jump, and I'd have to deal with that. If I dodge, I can squeeze a top light with the Warden, then feint a heavy, parry her side dodge....

And yes. She's very aggressive and attempting to be more aggressive than her won't work; I must bait anything she does, and heavily punish that. And none of her bleed attacks should land.

WABO423
11-28-2017, 02:23 AM
If your maining as warden against her your top lights will stop her unblockable heavy and most players wonít be able to react to that, as for dealing with the side heavy attacks, you can either try pushing your left stick in the direction she dashed alone with doing a light in the same direction, this will cause you to do a side step attack and catch her before she hits you if times right. Or you can try blocking it then most will follow up with the left heavy which gives you a free top light if you immediately go for it into shoulder bash, 2 side lights, shoulder bash feint into gb and free light or free heavy on a wall splat.

Most donít go for deflects because of the timing but best way to avoid it is to not go for the same attack sequences so they cannot predict where you will attack from.

Also donít forget about your zone attack as itís your fastest move you have and will also stop her side heavy if timed right

bob333e
11-28-2017, 04:13 AM
as for dealing with the side heavy attacks, you can either try pushing your left stick in the direction she dashed alone with doing a light in the same direction, this will cause you to do a side step attack and catch her before she hits you if times right.

Well well, I didn't know that... I should check it out and see if I can land my side lights the moment I see her dashing to the side. Thanks much for the tip!


Or you can try blocking it then most will follow up with the left heavy which gives you a free top light if you immediately go for it into shoulder bash, 2 side lights, shoulder bash feint into gb and free light or free heavy on a wall splat.

I've found that against experienced players, Warden's SB rarely lands unless I catch her completely off-guard. If I block her dodge attack, I'm running a 50/50 where I either land a top light, or she'll spin again and do another dodge attack. Sometimes I land the top light, sometimes I wait for a reaction. I don't often see the side heavy followup unless it's a not-so-experienced player; then yes, in this case what you suggested would work. Hence why I prefer parrying this specific move often, which then guarantees a GB, wallsplat, side/top heavy, SB feint into GB, double light or another side/top heavy. Or simply GB and side/top heavy if I'm not near a wall.


Also don’t forget about your zone attack as it’s your fastest move you have and will also stop her side heavy if timed right

I think using a zone to counter her dodge attack is more risk than reward. Warden's recovery from his zone is a bit too long against the speed at which Shaman can pull off two dodge attacks. It might work against side heavy, but then again the side heavy is often used for a feint mixup rather than an actual attack; I would most likely end up hitting the opponent the same time he hits me and this resets us back to neutral except that Shaman has higher chance of dealing more damage than Warden's zone. :/ best way this would work is when I already know my opponent's expected mixup game, and using the zone to counter a side heavy feint into GB, since GB'ing the Warden out of his zone animation is hard, zone's animation counts as a heavy.

Knight_Raime
11-28-2017, 08:43 AM
Honestly just playing aggressive is a good way to win. Try to stay as close as possible to her. That way if she tries to jump forward or backward for rage/pounce you can just light her out of it.
also attacks that are 500ms or faster will beat out her pounce mix up game and both soft feint games. Dodge attacks are very good against aggressive shaman that just over commit.

Ackturi
11-28-2017, 10:52 AM
If your maining as warden against her your top lights will stop her unblockable heavy and most players won’t be able to react to that

It's fun to deflect those for a bleed hehe. During my UB I wait to see a reaction if i'm gonna deflect or dodge attack/gb cancel it.

Alustar.
11-28-2017, 12:57 PM
Her blood trance is activated by you being affected by bleed (does not have to be from her)

she can attempt to procure bleed by using a light attack at the end of any of her combos. (Heavy, heavy. Light, heavy. Light, light, heavy.)

Heavy opener can be soft feinted into a bleed poke from any direction

The second hit of her zone attack can be canceled into a bleed poke

Or she can preform a deflect for a free bleed attack

Her heavy unblockable is only from the left side.

In my personal experience with playing and against her is that playing aggressively against er is the best way to shut her down. If you go on the defensive your done.
Most of her start ups are very slow and a quick light attack will stop her.

To counter the jumping attack simply dodge/dodge attack itís fast especially up close. The timing is pretty strick but can be done with ease once you figure it out. Donít try to block because it can come from any side.

To counter her pounce a timed light attack or dodge/dodge attack will stop her itís pretty easily punished. Also should be noted if you are affected by bleed and she misses a pounce she can pounce again so watch out for that. (She can only pounce 2 times while you are bleeding)

I'm not sure about that last part for the predator mercy second chance, I've been able to string three together while an opponent was bleeding, the first two missed because I was having to go around my allies, but the third landed.

Vordred
11-28-2017, 01:14 PM
my two main issues i have with the shaman is the Unblockable and the Bleeds.

i feel like she has way too many cancel options on the unblockable and can leave it really late to do them too. and then to many ways to land the bleed.

in fact that's the problem with her kit in a nutshell, too many options. dash attack can be from any direction (i know ara can do this too, but his have very distictive animation, making it easy to ready which of the 3 it will be) Bleeds from any direction. soft feints everywhere, follow ups on missed attacks and so on. combined with very damaging attacks.

but as i said i feel the Unblockable and the bleeds are the two big problems for me.

CandleInTheDark
11-28-2017, 01:20 PM
my two main issues i have with the shaman is the Unblockable and the Bleeds.

i feel like she has way too many cancel options on the unblockable and can leave it really late to do them too. and then to many ways to land the bleed.

in fact that's the problem with her kit in a nutshell, too many options. dash attack can be from any direction (i know ara can do this too, but his have very distictive animation, making it easy to ready which of the 3 it will be) Bleeds from any direction. soft feints everywhere, follow ups on missed attacks and so on. combined with very damaging attacks.

but as i said i feel the Unblockable and the bleeds are the two big problems for me.

Those bleed cancels are harder to pull off than the peacekeeper who doesn't get to change from the heavy direction because of the range, especially if the opponent isn't turtling given you have to be in the opponent's face to pull them off, that's why a lot of people who use her tell you to be aggressive. I get more bleeds through finishing chains and my deflects than the cancels and even then I have to factor in if the opponent is being aggressive they can hit me out of predator's mercy if I throw it in the moment I get bleed.

If you are looking for parry guardbreak max punish you are going to struggle because you are letting her get into a range she has those options, but honestly she gets more reward through using her kit and chains and that is what others should be encouraged in doing. I honestly think something like her kit where there is variety and their kit is viable in different situations should be the target in the coming reworks.

Vordred
11-28-2017, 01:48 PM
well keeping your distances isn't always easy considering the ridiculous amount of ground she can cover with the forward leap. and being aggressive is all well and good, but with dodge attacks that can often be fatal.

WABO423
11-28-2017, 02:04 PM
Those bleed cancels are harder to pull off than the peacekeeper who doesn't get to change from the heavy direction because of the range, especially if the opponent isn't turtling given you have to be in the opponent's face to pull them off, that's why a lot of people who use her tell you to be aggressive. I get more bleeds through finishing chains and my deflects than the cancels and even then I have to factor in if the opponent is being aggressive they can hit me out of predator's mercy if I throw it in the moment I get bleed.

If you are looking for parry guardbreak max punish you are going to struggle because you are letting her get into a range she has those options, but honestly she gets more reward through using her kit and chains and that is what others should be encouraged in doing. I honestly think something like her kit where there is variety and their kit is viable in different situations should be the target in the coming reworks.

I agree her versatility should be somewhat of a benchmark for hybrids, I feel like sheís more of a hybrid than an assassin at the moment because sheís good at pretty much everything. Hopefully the coming changes will put her in a good spot because sheís a hell of a lot of fun to play but at times feels like cheesing especially against newer players.

Each class should have their own style that fits the description

Vanguard- well rounded good fit for most situations and a moveset that offers you the versatility to be ok at what ever situation you get into. unlike now they are mostly one trick ponies

Assassins- good at 1v1s quick takedowns low life/defense, ďglass cannonsĒ moveset should offer good moveset based of either reactionary gameplay or openers and great single target damage, a lot of the assassins are in a good spot. Though the og ones need some updating.

Heavy - should all be great at tanking hits, be good at fighting multiple targets, putting out constistant high damage, have disabling attacks, and should have their moveset based around defensive play mostly.
Hybrid- should be a nice mix of the two styles they are but never be the best at either. And a moveset that reflects what combination of classes they are.

Iíve seen where a lot of people have said her moveset should be the benchmark for all characters and if they molded every character based off her moveset I feel like the diversity of the characters would be diminished.

Card1acArrest
11-29-2017, 03:33 PM
Going aggressive tactics: have you tried that vs a level 3 bot? Is there a difference between bots and ppl? if I try that vs a bot (3) he will parry anything anytime :)

WABO423
11-29-2017, 03:46 PM
Going aggressive tactics: have you tried that vs a level 3 bot? Is there a difference between bots and ppl? if I try that vs a bot (3) he will parry anything anytime :)

Yes is a huge difference between bots and people, lvl 3 bots have inhuman reflexes and can react to anything you throw at them. My advice was for fighting against other players

RiceComboA
11-29-2017, 09:54 PM
Yes is a huge difference between bots and people, lvl 3 bots have inhuman reflexes and can react to anything you throw at them. My advice was for fighting against other players

Some players are good enough to get close to that level, to the point where you wonder if there is third parties involved.

At the higher end, it's always suicidal to go offensive.

WABO423
11-29-2017, 10:29 PM
Some players are good enough to get close to that level, to the point where you wonder if there is third parties involved.

At the higher end, it's always suicidal to go offensive.

True but if they are on that level it is pretty irrelevant on the character being played. Iíve run into a few like that on ps4, I can only hope to get to that level one day.

CandleInTheDark
11-30-2017, 02:21 AM
Going aggressive tactics: have you tried that vs a level 3 bot? Is there a difference between bots and ppl? if I try that vs a bot (3) he will parry anything anytime :)

I believe the Devs said a couple Dens ago that the level 3 bots actively read your keystrokes so yeah that and the fact they don't have human reaction time means there is a difference, the level 3 valk bot in how to play regularly parries my lights, not many players do.

Outside that, I have actually been attacked by a shaman while using another character, not actually had that happen before on xbox. As a whole, aggression does work, but an alternative when bleeding is to stay a roll away from them, if you know what you are looking for, and as I have used the move, I do, it can be read, I dodged to the side, kept lock so the camera stayed on them and am confident I could have dodged a follow up, I waited bleed out then made sure they couldn't get bleed off again by making them whiff the heavy and punishing it.Full disclosure I am a peacekeeper main and was using peacekeeper, so my dodge is pretty good itself, so mileage may vary, just sharing what worked for me.

David_gorda
11-30-2017, 02:44 AM
Best is to be aggressive, i am prestige 3 on shaman now and i can say its the best way to beat him. Dont Panic if you bleed and run away it wont work, just attack. The fast attacks plus the soft feints are to hard for most People to handle so better attack the shaman.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 04:31 PM
Alright, today was another custom match training session against a level 3 bot. I noticed more stuff:

- Her two sure ways of landing the bleed is by either deflecting a light attack, or GB'ing you when you're OOS and throwing you down and landing a 3-hit combo provided she starts early.

- The deflect always guarantees a bleed from any direction. It comes out too fast, cannot be blocked.

- If you've been bled and you're GB'ed and shoved (not necessarily while OSS or wallsplat), it guarantees a pounce.

- She can try the pounce 3 times before the bleed wears off, but she may only hit you once with it. Afterwards she'll have to reopen the bleed.

- More than half of the purpose of her attacks are to just land a bleed so she can use the dreaded pounce.

- Her double side lights (either right or left) are meant for a bleed followup which can come from any direction. The bleed is most times a top attack, because it's a bit faster than the side ones. Can still be blocked on reaction with a just impact block (I'm using Warden), while knowing a bleed attack is coming after the double side lights.

- She can cancel her unblockable into pounce if you've been bled.

- Whenever you see her ducking a bit and dashing either backwards or forward, she's weak to a quick light attack and it will cancel her headbutt.

- The headbutt can also be telegraphed if you see her sheathing her weapons. The same is for pounce.

- Her jumping attacks are actually openers so she can land the double side lights into bleed combo, effectively making it a 4-hit combo which can also be chained again if she chooses to not use the pounce. The double side lights also can be chained with a side heavy which then can be feinted into GB, a bleed attack, or directly into pounce if you've been already bled.

- If you dodge a jumping attack, it almost always guarantees a light attack against her.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 04:36 PM
Going aggressive tactics: have you tried that vs a level 3 bot? Is there a difference between bots and ppl? if I try that vs a bot (3) he will parry anything anytime :)

The level 3 Shaman bot today deflected my zone, lol. Warden's zone. Haven't met a single human player who pulled that off.... neither witnessed it on YouTube yet. There is a big difference and level 3 bots are harder, they read your inputs, and they always pull off the combos flawlessly. It makes hella good training. By the time a level 3 bot becomes fair play, I don't think I'll be struggling against human Shaman players much. ;) if only more people were able to withstand training with a level 3 bot... I know how annoying it can get. But it's the best training you can have.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 04:47 PM
my two main issues i have with the shaman is the Unblockable and the Bleeds.

Yes, it's her bleed attacks that are being the most problematic in her kit. Because then she can pounce and you have to be extra careful to avoid it while all your opponent has to do is initiate the pounce. Which turns into a 50/50 for you, and a barely punishing outcome for the Shaman. For the duration of the bleed. Add to that, it's been confirmed the tracking on her pounce is broken and will be fixed in the next patch, so yeah. The problem is basically her pounce attack.

bob333e
11-30-2017, 04:55 PM
Dodge attacks are very good against aggressive shaman that just over commit.

Thanks Raime for joining in! :) And I agree. Unfortunately, it's not a possible option for me, as I main Warden, and only Warden... my tricks with dealing with overly aggressive Shaman players differ, and parrying is involved often. Though, with the supposed upcoming parry-into-GB nerf, it'll definitely make it harder to get rewarding hits in on the Shaman after parrying her.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 04:55 PM
Small update 1/12/17

Turned on to do my daily orders, popped a duel. Not to boast, met an overall rep 16 player with a rep 4 Shaman. He got crushed 3-1 in the first match, 3-0 in the rematch. There was no ledging/hazard use from both sides in both matches.

He wasn't even remotely as hard as the level 3 Shaman bot I constantly practice with.

I hope this entices others to practice more against level 3 bots. Believe me, the amount of training you do is insane; only real issue in PvP will be connection issues, not the heroes themselves. :)

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 05:09 PM
Alright, today was another custom match training session against a level 3 bot. I noticed more stuff:

- Her two sure ways of landing the bleed is by either deflecting a light attack, or GB'ing you when you're OOS and throwing you down and landing a 3-hit combo provided she starts early.

- The deflect always guarantees a bleed from any direction. It comes out too fast, cannot be blocked.

- If you've been bled and you're GB'ed and shoved (not necessarily while OSS or wallsplat), it guarantees a pounce.

- She can try the pounce 3 times before the bleed wears off, but she may only hit you once with it. Afterwards she'll have to reopen the bleed.

- More than half of the purpose of her attacks are to just land a bleed so she can use the dreaded pounce.

- Her double side lights (either right or left) are meant for a bleed followup which can come from any direction. The bleed is most times a top attack, because it's a bit faster than the side ones. Can still be blocked on reaction with a just impact block (I'm using Warden), while knowing a bleed attack is coming after the double side lights.

- She can cancel her unblockable into pounce if you've been bled.

- Whenever you see her ducking a bit and dashing either backwards or forward, she's weak to a quick light attack and it will cancel her headbutt.

- The headbutt can also be telegraphed if you see her sheathing her weapons. The same is for pounce.

- Her jumping attacks are actually openers so she can land the double side lights into bleed combo, effectively making it a 4-hit combo which can also be chained again if she chooses to not use the pounce. The double side lights also can be chained with a side heavy which then can be feinted into GB, a bleed attack, or directly into pounce if you've been already bled.

- If you dodge a jumping attack, it almost always guarantees a light attack against her.

This is an excellent read, thank you for putting this together!

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 05:17 PM
Small update 1/12/17

Turned on to do my daily orders, popped a duel. Not to boast, met an overall rep 16 player with a rep 4 Shaman. He got crushed 3-1 in the first match, 3-0 in the rematch. There was no ledging/hazard use from both sides in both matches.

He wasn't even remotely as hard as the level 3 Shaman bot I constantly practice with.

I hope this entices others to practice more against level 3 bots. Believe me, the amount of training you do is insane; only real issue in PvP will be connection issues, not the heroes themselves. :)

I'm with you there, I think players forget they didn't start off playing For Honor and winning ever match they landed in.
Thanks again for taking the time to even put that post together, I am definitely saving it for use in my own matches. ;)

bob333e
12-01-2017, 05:21 PM
You're most welcome! happy to know I'm being helpful :D

This thread will keep being updated as I learn and discover new stuff. I also encourage anyone to hop in and share things they've learned and countered.

Eventually, this will be the "countering level 3 Shaman bot thread" hahah

Thanks again friend!

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 05:33 PM
Alright, today was another custom match training session against a level 3 bot. I noticed more stuff:

- Her two sure ways of landing the bleed is by either deflecting a light attack, or GB'ing you when you're OOS and throwing you down and landing a 3-hit combo provided she starts early.

- The deflect always guarantees a bleed from any direction. It comes out too fast, cannot be blocked.

- If you've been bled and you're GB'ed and shoved (not necessarily while OSS or wallsplat), it guarantees a pounce.

- She can try the pounce 3 times before the bleed wears off, but she may only hit you once with it. Afterwards she'll have to reopen the bleed.

- More than half of the purpose of her attacks are to just land a bleed so she can use the dreaded pounce.

- Her double side lights (either right or left) are meant for a bleed followup which can come from any direction. The bleed is most times a top attack, because it's a bit faster than the side ones. Can still be blocked on reaction with a just impact block (I'm using Warden), while knowing a bleed attack is coming after the double side lights.

- She can cancel her unblockable into pounce if you've been bled.

- Whenever you see her ducking a bit and dashing either backwards or forward, she's weak to a quick light attack and it will cancel her headbutt.

- The headbutt can also be telegraphed if you see her sheathing her weapons. The same is for pounce.

- Her jumping attacks are actually openers so she can land the double side lights into bleed combo, effectively making it a 4-hit combo which can also be chained again if she chooses to not use the pounce. The double side lights also can be chained with a side heavy which then can be feinted into GB, a bleed attack, or directly into pounce if you've been already bled.

- If you dodge a jumping attack, it almost always guarantees a light attack against her.

Just a note here is it two light his then a bleed? I wasn't aware she could follow that up like that? Bleeds should be tied to either heavy openers via soft feint or finished combos. Or maybe is it the zone attack cancel?

bob333e
12-01-2017, 05:40 PM
Just a note here is it two light his then a bleed? I wasn't aware she could follow that up like that? Bleeds should be tied to either heavy openers via soft feint or finished combos. Or maybe is it the zone attack cancel?

Affirmative. Her jumping attack into double side lights counts as a combo, its finisher being the bleed attack, which was the primary target of the combo itself. If she doesn't do the jumping opener, she has to do double side lights then feint a heavy into bleed; or double side lights, dodge attack heavy, then feint a side heavy into bleed.

Also to note, she has fairly long allowance after the jumping attack, to continue into double side lights for the double lights to still count as a combo tied with the jumping attack. Her kit flow is just too great.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 05:45 PM
Affirmative. Her jumping attack into double side lights counts as a combo, its finisher being the bleed attack, which was the primary target of the combo itself. If she doesn't do the jumping opener, she has to do double side lights then feint a heavy into bleed; or double side lights, dodge attack heavy, then feint a side heavy into bleed.

Also to note, she has fairly long allowance after the jumping attack, to continue into double side lights for the double lights to still count as a combo tied with the jumping attack. Her kit flow is just too great.

I did not know that about her heavy opener/finisher rules. That changes things.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 05:51 PM
I did not know that any her heavy opener/finisher rules. That changes things.

Right? take it as a road map, with the bleed attacks being "downtown", and all roads ultimately lead to downtown; as in, no matter what mixups she does, she'll ultimately end it with a bleed attack, to reach the ultimatum: the pounce. Which can be fairly dodged and punished as well. Really, the problem with Shaman isn't her kit; her kit is amazing. It was damage values and tracking problems, and the fact her pounce can auto-heal without penalties as per Shugo's Demon Embrace. That's about it. Learning to fight and counter her is an amazing experience :D I'm always eager to practice against her :) she poses such a good challenge to us OG heroes.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 06:12 PM
Right? take it as a road map, with the bleed attacks being "downtown", and all roads ultimately lead to downtown; as in, no matter what mixups she does, she'll ultimately end it with a bleed attack, to reach the ultimatum: the pounce. Which can be fairly dodged and punished as well. Really, the problem with Shaman isn't her kit; her kit is amazing. It was damage values and tracking problems, and the fact her pounce can auto-heal without penalties as per Shugo's Demon Embrace. That's about it. Learning to fight and counter her is an amazing experience :D I'm always eager to practice against her :) she poses such a good challenge to us OG heroes.

I'm trying like hell to replicate this maneuver, but for the life of me can't seem to...

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 06:37 PM
I'm trying like hell to replicate this maneuver, but for the life of me can't seem to...wonder why lol

https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Alustar

bob333e
12-01-2017, 06:47 PM
I'm trying like hell to replicate this maneuver, but for the life of me can't seem to...

Found ya some vids, I wish I had some footage at the ready, I'll make note to start posting recorded footage here of my duels with level 3 Shaman bots.

Here at 3:50, the opponent does the double side light into soft feint into bleed, and at 4:34 the uploader did it back; they must use soft feint since there was no jumping attack opener. He's on PS4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYVyOG6Vyc

And here, at 1:52, the bot chained a jumping opener, a heavy, and a bleed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkx2LyMOT-E

You might be right about the soft feint after the double side lights; it might have been that and I could have mistaken it into direct chain into bleed. In which case, the double side lights into soft feint into bleed can be initiated without needing the jumping attack opener. Or it might just be a real tricky timer. Level 3 bots get everything perfect anyway, it's hard to tell, I wish I had an experienced Shaman friend with whom I could practice as well.

I'll keep my eyes open next time I turn on and train with my bots. Thanks a lot for this tidbit!

WABO423
12-01-2017, 06:50 PM
I'm trying like hell to replicate this maneuver, but for the life of me can't seem to...

You canít chain leaping heavy attack into 2 lights.

Her combos can be chained into bleed by the following

Heavy, heavy, bleed poke(light)
the leap attack, and dodge heavy can count as the first heavy.

Light, heavy, bleed poke
You can go light, chained into side dodge attack, then light for bleed. Leap attack cannot be chained into this

Light, light, heavy, bleed poke.
Same rules apply for light heavy combo.

Deflect. Gives free bleed if you push the light attack during the animation.

Heavy opener soft feint.
Cancels the heavy attack into a bleed poke, can be feinted into any direction by hitting light attack early in the animation.

Thatís the extent of her bleed combos

bob333e
12-01-2017, 06:50 PM
wonder why lol

https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Alustar

You have no place on this thread nor are you contributing to this discussion. Go troll elsewhere.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 06:52 PM
Light, heavy, bleed poke
You can go light, chained into side dodge attack, then light for bleed. Leap attack cannot be chained into this

Wait, this might be it, actually! after the jumping attack, then first light, I must have mistaken the second hit as light, it must have been a heavy. Thanks for this! :)

WABO423
12-01-2017, 06:56 PM
Wait, this might be it, actually! after the jumping attack, then first light, I must have mistaken the second hit as light, it must have been a heavy. Thanks for this! :)

Yes her side dodge attacks are heavies, though are as fast as lights

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 06:58 PM
You have no place on this thread nor are you contributing to this discussion. Go troll elsewhere. i am not trolling, its a Guy with k/D less then 1 that tells other players shaman is not op and he says he is going to teach them how play shaman even though he doesnt Know the moveset thats trolling. Protip, shaman can apply bleed directly with softfeint heavy into light. Make sure you not call me troll again you just make yourself look like a fool.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 07:02 PM
Found ya some vids, I wish I had some footage at the ready, I'll make note to start posting recorded footage here of my duels with level 3 Shaman bots.

Here at 3:50, the opponent does the double side light into soft feint into bleed, and at 4:34 the uploader did it back; they must use soft feint since there was no jumping attack opener. He's on PS4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYVyOG6Vyc

And here, at 1:52, the bot chained a jumping opener, a heavy, and a bleed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkx2LyMOT-E

You might be right about the soft feint after the double side lights; it might have been that and I could have mistaken it into direct chain into bleed. In which case, the double side lights into soft feint into bleed can be initiated without needing the jumping attack opener. Or it might just be a real tricky timer. Level 3 bots get everything perfect anyway, it's hard to tell, I wish I had an experienced Shaman friend with whom I could practice as well.

I'll keep my eyes open next time I turn on and train with my bots. Thanks a lot for this tidbit!

The best I could do was a WCRage with a hard feinted second heavy into a zone soft feint into Ravens bile, expended nearly two thirds of my stamina, so from there I could pounce or out right (maybe) but would need to grab for confirmed Mercy. Might try a soft feinted heavy GB. I might get lucky and have just enough stamina to make the pounce and regen...

And thanks for those I'll be back on later to check into them more thoroughly.

WABO423
12-01-2017, 07:03 PM
Found ya some vids, I wish I had some footage at the ready, I'll make note to start posting recorded footage here of my duels with level 3 Shaman bots.

Here at 3:50, the opponent does the double side light into soft feint into bleed, and at 4:34 the uploader did it back; they must use soft feint since there was no jumping attack opener. He's on PS4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVYVyOG6Vyc

And here, at 1:52, the bot chained a jumping opener, a heavy, and a bleed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkx2LyMOT-E

You might be right about the soft feint after the double side lights; it might have been that and I could have mistaken it into direct chain into bleed. In which case, the double side lights into soft feint into bleed can be initiated without needing the jumping attack opener. Or it might just be a real tricky timer. Level 3 bots get everything perfect anyway, it's hard to tell, I wish I had an experienced Shaman friend with whom I could practice as well.

I'll keep my eyes open next time I turn on and train with my bots. Thanks a lot for this tidbit!

Iím decent with the shaman, if your on ps4 Iíll practice with you when I get home from work in 5 days psn name is wab0423

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:07 PM
Yes her side dodge attacks are heavies, though are as fast as lights

Yes, though I didn't mean those; I meant the chained light attack after the jumping attack opener. That is indeed a light, but its followup is a heavy... I mistook it for another light, timing differences between the two is rather small. That's how the bot was able to chain jump attack, light, heavy, bleed.

@alustar24 my bad, double lights won't directly chain a bleed! turns out the third attack after the jump attack is actually a heavy. Hence the possibility of soft feints too.

This is getting pretty interesting. We're literally writing Shaman into a book :) thanks a lot guys for your help in this!

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 07:08 PM
Iím decent with the shaman, if your on ps4 Iíll practice with you when I get home from work in 5 days psn name is wab0423
Alustar here, I'm not a great Duelist, but I'm great in 4s >=)

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:10 PM
The best I could do was a WCRage with a hard feinted second heavy into a zone soft feint into Ravens bile, expended nearly two thirds of my stamina, so from there I could pounce or out right (maybe) but would need to grab for confirmed Mercy. Might try a soft feinted heavy GB. I might get lucky and have just enough stamina to make the pounce and regen...

two feints in a row after WCRage? whoa. Concerning pounce I've had bots pounce at me with as little stamina as it could allow; I don't think there is a stamina prerequisite for initiating the pounce. As long as you have a sliver of it, pounce can be activated. At least from what I've experienced.

Concerning WCRage, I've yet to be able to read it more properly, to tell from where the feints will be coming. Practicing gets even more delicious :)

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:12 PM
I’m decent with the shaman, if your on ps4 I’ll practice with you when I get home from work in 5 days psn name is wab0423

Alustar here, I'm not a great Duelist, but I'm great in 4s >=)


It'd be a pleasure to meet you both! mine is Fady117. Let's cross swords :D I will be adding you two very soon :)

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 07:13 PM
Alustar here, I'm not a great Duelist, but I'm great in 4s >=) really you have 0,98 k/D and 51.4% winratio in deathmatch which you play mostly and you call yourself great in 4vs4? :)

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:17 PM
really you have 0,98 k/D and 51.4% winratio in deathmatch which you play mostly and you call yourself great in 4vs4? :)

You asked for it. You've been reported. Enjoy being banned outta here soon. :)

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 07:17 PM
two feints in a row after WCRage? whoa. Concerning pounce I've had bots pounce at me with as little stamina as it could allow; I don't think there is a stamina prerequisite for initiating the pounce. As long as you have a sliver of it, pounce can be activated. At least from what I've experienced.

Concerning WCRage, I've yet to be able to read it more properly, to tell from where the feints will be coming. Practicing gets even more delicious :)

Granted that means neither of the hits (both zone and bleed) are confirmed so as long as you are let predict the zone you shut down that whole chain.
And important thing forever is that the bleed after a heavy or zone can(and likely will) come regardless if the heavy or zone is blocked.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:21 PM
Granted that means neither of the hits (both zone and bleed) are confirmed so as long as you are let predict the zone you shut down that whole chain.
And important thing forever is that the bleed after a heavy or zone can(and likely will) come regardless if the heavy or zone is blocked.

Aha, good catch. If I stop the zone, she'll have to redo her whole chain. Interesting.

And yes, the bleed will come if the zone/heavy were blocked, though if it was a superior block, I don't think she can followup with the bleed; at which point, it'll be a retreat into a dodge attack, which can then be parried and she'll be countered from there. Or, backdash retreat, headbutt attempt, that's a better outcome for the Shaman against experienced players; it's a 50/50 to land and let her have free lights. Otherwise her dodge attack will almost always get parried.

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 07:24 PM
You asked for it. You've been reported. Enjoy being banned outta here soon. :)? You are the one insulting me and calling me a troll. Surprised you are not banned already.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:36 PM
? You are the one insulting me and calling me a troll. Surprised you are not banned already.

I don't go around messaging under every thread laughing at people's K/Ds and their "prestige" while basking in my own ego of "prestige 100+" and badgering every healthy thread with senseless, childish, rampant, blatant uselessness that doesn't contribute to even one single good thing in this whole thread.

Yes. Go troll elsewhere.

WABO423
12-01-2017, 07:36 PM
really you have 0,98 k/D and 51.4% winratio in deathmatch which you play mostly and you call yourself great in 4vs4? :)

Man just stop whatís the point in what your doing? Btw the tracker havenít been updating in awhile so the info your basing your shaming on is not accurate

My duel stats are way off yet my skill rating is in the top 3%? Iíve done way more duels than it is representing.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:38 PM
I already reported him, but won't spam reports. I'll report him again tomorrow.

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 07:47 PM
Aha, good catch. If I stop the zone, she'll have to redo her whole chain. Interesting.

And yes, the bleed will come if the zone/heavy were blocked, though if it was a superior block, I don't think she can followup with the bleed; at which point, it'll be a retreat into a dodge attack, which can then be parried and she'll be countered from there. Or, backdash retreat, headbutt attempt, that's a better outcome for the Shaman against experienced players; it's a 50/50 to land and let her have free lights. Otherwise her dodge attack will almost always get parried.

And the zone can only come from her left side(so your right?) Not due sit the superior block, sounds right though. I honestly prefer the attack over headbutt. The both can be dodged but the WC Rage can come from any side. If I'm close enough and they don't hit me out of it, I can chain two or three sometimes before they think to move cause they think they want to try parry it

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 07:52 PM
Man just stop whatís the point in what your doing? Btw the tracker havenít been updating in awhile so the info your basing your shaming on is not accurate

My duel stats are way off yet my skill rating is in the top 3%? Iíve done way more duels than it is representing.
The point is that Alustar Been Telling People to git Gud, shaman is not op, play against me i teach you to beat shamans. Things like that. I dont care what his stats are but he shouldnt tell People they are noobs and That he is great when stats clearly says he is not great.

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 07:54 PM
I already reported him, but won't spam reports. I'll report him again tomorrow.i am going to give you a warning. Next time you insult me i report you.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 07:55 PM
And the zone can only come from her left side(so your right?) Not due sit the superior block, sounds right though. I honestly prefer the attack over headbutt. The both can be dodged but the WC Rage can come from any side. If I'm close enough and they don't hit me out of it, I can chain two or three sometimes before they think to move cause they think they want to try parry it

Yup, her zone is only on my right side. If I choose to top light her headbutt, I rarely get to do followups (I mostly play against level 3 bots, they often won't allow followups, but that's probably just me still practicing); I often dodge it, SB, double light, and either SB into GB or wait for a reaction and parry (if it's a dodge attack), or dodge again, rinse, repeat. It's either that, or directly throwing double lights soon as I dodge her headbutt. Warden is amazing in many ways against her, it's just nothing is as guaranteed anymore; and I love it :)

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 07:55 PM
The point is that Alustar Been Telling People to git Gud, shaman is not op, play against me i teach you to beat shamans. Things like that. I dont care what his stats are but he shouldnt tell People they are noobs and That he is great when stats clearly says he is not great.

It must really hurt your ego to see a guy with less numbers on a board say he doesn't encounter the same problems you do, huh?

bob333e
12-01-2017, 08:01 PM
i am going to give you a warning. Next time you insult me i report you.

I guess everything that doesn't caress your precious ego is taken as an insult. In which case your threat just fell flat on its face.

Keep trolling. You're actually a nice funny comedy lunchbreak in the middle of this discussion. ^^

David_gorda
12-01-2017, 08:02 PM
It must really hurt your ego to see a guy with less numbers on a board say he doesn't encounter the same problems you do, huh?
Nope noobs lies and dwfenda their op classes all the time, happens in Every Game like this. Just thought it was funny to find your profile and expose your lies. but yeah you can Continue tell everyone shaman is balanced and you you can teach other People how to play shaman :)

Alustar.
12-01-2017, 08:14 PM
I guess everything that doesn't caress your precious ego is taken as an insult. In which case your threat just fell flat on its face.

Keep trolling. You're actually a nice funny comedy lunchbreak in the middle of this discussion. ^^

Its like turning the tv on and seeing Donald Trump troll your forums with a script written by 4Chan.

bob333e
12-01-2017, 08:20 PM
Its like turning the tv on and seeing Donald Trump troll your forums with a script written by 4Chan.

I swear, I never expected to attract trolls in here. He's funny though. Tries to sound like a conscious adult while at the same time berating everyone else with childish talk.

I've still got some time to kill. Has he been around much? I feel sorry for all those healthy threads getting blasted with troll messages. This was my first thread here, hence why he kinda surprised me lol.

Alustar.
12-02-2017, 02:00 AM
I swear, I never expected to attract trolls in here. He's funny though. Tries to sound like a conscious adult while at the same time berating everyone else with childish talk.

I've still got some time to kill. Has he been around much? I feel sorry for all those healthy threads getting blasted with troll messages. This was my first thread here, hence why he kinda surprised me lol.

I don't recognize the name, honestly. He definitely isn't one of the players who have been active in the forums since the beginning like a few of us. He sprouted me to, honestly. I have a legitimate effort to try and help him. He just seems to only want to troll.
To wrap up the centurion talk(from the closed thread) getting over that hurdle was rough, but I've honestly the thing that took me off the game was the rampant zone spam in skirmish and unlock exploit trolls (mostly Nobushi). Abbott the only thing I felt was too much for him was his ability to keep you pinned with wallsplats.

bob333e
12-02-2017, 03:19 AM
He sprouted me to, honestly. I have a legitimate effort to try and help him. He just seems to only want to troll.

Humor me; this thread here was created to help others as well as archive stuff for myself. And this is the thanks I get from the likes of him...

Anyway, back to topic:


To wrap up the centurion talk(from the closed thread) getting over that hurdle was rough, but I've honestly the thing that took me off the game was the rampant zone spam in skirmish and unlock exploit trolls (mostly Nobushi). Abbott the only thing I felt was too much for him was his ability to keep you pinned with wallsplats.

Right you are. When I had started For Honor early November, Nobushi mains were a problem; good range, fast pokes, and poison/bleed. After I had finished with Story Mode, she and Centurion were the two I focused my training on (I never did Story Mode in one stretch; I took intermittent breaks and went into PvP). Later on I started to practice against Kensei, his dodge attacks and zone finisher were (and still are in a small extent) a trouble to deal with.

In Centurion's case, his parry punish is amazing; he's often seen as "spamming bash attacks" but that's not how I portray him. He's just great. Stabs, punches, kicks, and if you miss a greedy parry, you're heavily punished for it. Also, on the same note: why do people call him "cutscene hero"? was it because of the infinite wallsplat? being considered like one big cutscene where your character is just sitting ducks eating blow after blow? I'm honestly surprised some people today still call him Cutscene Hero, hah. He's nowhere like that for me :p

Alustar.
12-02-2017, 04:10 AM
Humor me; this thread here was created to help others as well as archive stuff for myself. And this is the thanks I get from the likes of him...

Anyway, back to topic:



Right you are. When I had started For Honor early November, Nobushi mains were a problem; good range, fast pokes, and poison/bleed. After I had finished with Story Mode, she and Centurion were the two I focused my training on (I never did Story Mode in one stretch; I took intermittent breaks and went into PvP). Later on I started to practice against Kensei, his dodge attacks and zone finisher were (and still are in a small extent) a trouble to deal with.

In Centurion's case, his parry punish is amazing; he's often seen as "spamming bash attacks" but that's not how I portray him. He's just great. Stabs, punches, kicks, and if you miss a greedy parry, you're heavily punished for it. Also, on the same note: why do people call him "cutscene hero"? was it because of the infinite wallsplat? being considered like one big cutscene where your character is just sitting ducks eating blow after blow? I'm honestly surprised some people today still call him Cutscene Hero, hah. He's nowhere like that for me :p

It was part to do with wall splat, but mainly the issue was people getting hit repeatedly by charged jabs that landed you on your back for a free eagles talon. Combine that with multiple centurion in 4s and it was nothing but knock downs and leaping stabs.
I will maintain that's where most of his hate came from was 4s. In a static 1v1 he was only a problem for overly aggressive players that got parried and couldn't find an opening in the combo string to get distance on reestablish guard.

bob333e
12-02-2017, 04:21 AM
I will maintain that's where most of his hate came from was 4s. In a static 1v1 he was only a problem for overly aggressive players that got parried and couldn't find an opening in the combo string to get distance on reestablish guard.

Interesting... and I'll agree with you there. In a 4v4 situation, it's 4 times worse; now that Shaman took the seat, I'm guessing most whiners on this forum are people who do mostly 4v4s and getting ganked by at least 3 Shamans who are mained by players intentionally spamming headbutts, bleeds, and bites.

Dealing with several Shamans certainly isn't easy at all; but in no way this was meant as a fight to be won. Shaman is pretty new, people have yet to get to know her, and she's fast, she hits hard, and she counters almost every other hero. Obviously, in 4v4, don't just expect to survive a 3v1 or a 4v1; that will take time and very specific tactics.

That should also tell you how these players who constantly get ganked in 4v4 need to rethink how they play 4v4, lol. This isn't a tanking game; even Revenge can only do much. Personally, if I'm constantly getting ganked, I realize I'm doing something wrong. And then, you have feats. So many feats can shut down 2 Shamans at once. For instance her headbutt is useless if you have Rocksteady on Aramusha, pop Revenge and just whack at her when she headbutts. Warlord also has a tanky feat where he becomes able to withstand double the amount of blows. Arrow Storm, bombs, smoke bombs, bow... and the Defense Drain thing...and then the pickable powerups... really, in 4v4, it's an entirely different game.

Alustar.
12-03-2017, 10:11 AM
After gong back over the matches we had the other day, I found out something about it again. After a successfully wild cats hunger (headbutt) it is a seems transiting into a zone attack, I'd watch for this as is pretty easy to execute and get bleed damage of quick since it doesn't matter if the two hits are blocked or not.

bob333e
12-03-2017, 02:32 PM
After gong back over the matches we had the other day, I found out something about it again. After a successfully wild cats hunger (headbutt) it is a seems transiting into a zone attack, I'd watch for this as is pretty easy to execute and get bleed damage of quick since it doesn't matter if the two hits are blocked or not.

Those were awesome matches man, and it's been a pleasure playing by your side! :D I should confess, I'm not too used to playing alongside friends, let alone duel them; I tend to not give my complete best haha. For fear of annoying friends and stuff.

I did not enter practice against level 3 Shaman bots yesterday, I was training against Nobushis and Valkyries, after I finished with my orders. The former being to learn better tricks how to punish her unblockable kick, and the latter being because I don't really meet skilled Valkyrie players and when I do I'd like to be ready ^^ (she's damn fast, I like how Valkyries are actually deadly).

Good catch on your point above; I do think in 4v4 if the headbutt lands she can easily chain that into zone, though that's only when it lands; it's so easy to get staggered out of both headbutt and pounce, even with friendly fire. In most 4v4s I've done, Shamans spammed combos more often than headbutts, unless I faced a Shaman alone, then yes, she'll attempt headbutt wallsplat into bleed into pounce. Quick easy win.

Erhanninja
12-11-2017, 12:57 PM
Every day I see new crazy things Shaman can do. Today I saw she wall splat somebody. She was OOS and her heavy hit the guy. I never seen any other character doing that.

When She GBs you she gets I think double the time other characters get. Normally you would push back within a second or so. She nearly gets 2 seconds. She has so much time to attack. Itís crazy.

bananaflow2017
12-11-2017, 01:51 PM
I think there is no real "counter" to shaman...
Her kit is so versatile she can do nearly everything...
I dont think there is another character with so many options to theire skills.
She can so her forward dash atack to Left and right too (no other Hero can do that).
She can feint her first heavy into a gb or a light.
She can do a "repunce" if she misses...
She can feint her punce..
She can softfeint her zone into a light....

I think this is not everything i guess..
It will take a long time until players will get used to this..
Also I am very said when i look at shaman skill list and compare this to my warden skill list..

FredEx919
12-11-2017, 03:20 PM
I've seen some of you mentioning the next patch. I haven't had the chance to take a look at the latest wave of patch notes, but that should be coming in soon. I'll get those out for everyone as soon as possible.

bob333e
12-11-2017, 10:08 PM
I've seen some of you mentioning the next patch. I haven't had the chance to take a look at the latest wave of patch notes, but that should be coming in soon. I'll get those out for everyone as soon as possible.

Thank you sir for dropping by in this humble thread! and we are much obliged for any future info released concerning the upcoming readjustments and reworks.


Every day I see new crazy things Shaman can do. Today I saw she wall splat somebody. She was OOS and her heavy hit the guy. I never seen any other character doing that.

When She GBs you she gets I think double the time other characters get. Normally you would push back within a second or so. She nearly gets 2 seconds. She has so much time to attack. It’s crazy.

Yes, as crazy as Raider's ability to carry and charge you even when he's OOS; I suppose these were unintended and they should definitely be readjusted. Concerning the GB attack window, I haven't noticed much around that, personally; Shaman players rarely consider their options anyway if they GB you. It's either almost always a shove into pounce (headbutt if you haven't been bled for extra shove distance, free Predator's Mercy if you've been bled), or they attempt a heavy into bleed, to freely land a bleed attack if you haven't been bled already.


I think there is no real "counter" to shaman...
Her kit is so versatile she can do nearly everything...
I dont think there is another character with so many options to theire skills.
She can so her forward dash atack to Left and right too (no other Hero can do that).
She can feint her first heavy into a gb or a light.
She can do a "repunce" if she misses...
She can feint her punce..
She can softfeint her zone into a light....

I think this is not everything i guess..
It will take a long time until players will get used to this..
Also I am very said when i look at shaman skill list and compare this to my warden skill list..

Correct, she's the sole character with such an advanced feinting game, hence why her kit flow is on another level. Because she can feint so many things into so many things. And yes, she can attempt Predator's Mercy 3 times before the bleed wears out.
She's nowhere near uncounterable though. She's very vulnerable to quite a few things. You can easily bait the dodge attacks by feinting a heavy. You can dodge the headbutt/pounce, and they are quite telegraphed. You can block her bleed hits. You can interrupt many of her attacks with fast lights. You can interrupt her zone with fast lights. You can also interrupt her unblockable with a fast light. Her only real guaranteed punish scenarios are:

- GBing you, shove into a wall for wallsplat, headbutt, wallsplat again, free heavy + bleed. It's a free Predator's Mercy if you become OOS.
- Upon deflect, it's a free bleed, cannot be dodged nor countered nor blocked
- If you've been bled, a GB shove guarantees Predator's Mercy
- Predator's Mercy cannot be dodged if you're up close
- With the recent environmental vortex bug, a GB shove + headbutt is the farthest shove distance and can often result in free ledging.

Tobias96716
12-12-2017, 12:58 AM
ok...I have gotten Shaman to rep 10 and this is what I find hurts me more than any other....parries....1 parry and I'm out of stamina or damn near out of stamina...a out of stamina shaman is a shaman that can be dispatched fairly quickly....

what I see that works against people the most is the unblockable feint into gb then a heavy feinted into a bleed...that makes people panic....and do the same start up again but let the unblockable go and hit another bleed since they think its a gb coming...

most people use the zone attack feint to land a bleed but it is way to stamina consuming and predicable....

also i dont even go for the 2nd pounce 1v1 if i miss the first...they attack and bring me out of it since it does not have hyper armor a light attack will end a pounce....

most 2nd and 3rd attacks come from the left....and if you block the attack just before the bleed the bleed attack almost always comes from the opposite site...

She also doesnt need anymore nerfs without giving her a positive....but a slight tweek is needed to the tracking of the pounce...but this might be a double edged sword as the pounce once dodged wont allow a punish since she will be to far away....allowing the 2nd pounce to be used with much more success....and no way to avoid it....

Also a slight tweek should be made to her gb throw range....they should only be tossed that far if they are bled and we should have the option to pounce after the gb....sometimes it is more beneficial to throw them without a pounce...so you can ledge them or use the spikes....if they are bled and you throw them its just a pounce and not a kill....

bob333e
12-12-2017, 01:37 AM
ok...I have gotten Shaman to rep 10 and this is what I find hurts me more than any other....parries....1 parry and I'm out of stamina or damn near out of stamina...a out of stamina shaman is a shaman that can be dispatched fairly quickly....

what I see that works against people the most is the unblockable feint into gb then a heavy feinted into a bleed...that makes people panic....and do the same start up again but let the unblockable go and hit another bleed since they think its a gb coming...

most people use the zone attack feint to land a bleed but it is way to stamina consuming and predicable....

also i dont even go for the 2nd pounce 1v1 if i miss the first...they attack and bring me out of it since it does not have hyper armor a light attack will end a pounce....

most 2nd and 3rd attacks come from the left....and if you block the attack just before the bleed the bleed attack almost always comes from the opposite site...

She also doesnt need anymore nerfs without giving her a positive....but a slight tweek is needed to the tracking of the pounce...but this might be a double edged sword as the pounce once dodged wont allow a punish since she will be to far away....allowing the 2nd pounce to be used with much more success....and no way to avoid it....

Also a slight tweek should be made to her gb throw range....they should only be tossed that far if they are bled and we should have the option to pounce after the gb....sometimes it is more beneficial to throw them without a pounce...so you can ledge them or use the spikes....if they are bled and you throw them its just a pounce and not a kill....

Hey man, welcome to the thread, and thanks for chipping in!

I agree, Shaman is very vulnerable to parries, and I think this is fitting. As strong as she is, it's only fair that she gets punished accordingly if the Shaman player lets himself be too readable, or falls for feints. Often I find most newbie Shaman players will resort to spamming dodge attacks on reaction, a heavy feint is an excellent counter to that. Skilled players are more aware, however nothing prevents them from falling for a feint too.

You're right about the unblockable feint into GB, this is by far, next to her bleed attack speed, the most tricky move she has. She can cancel the unblockable pretty late, and the parry window itself is extremely narrow.

Heavy feint into bleed is situational, since a well-timed light attack will go through before Shaman initiates the bleed attack. However if the opponent attempted to parry the heavy and fell for the feint, then yes; they fully eat the bleed attack right in the face.

The zone attack feint into bleed can work in all three directions, I found that most often players will resort to a top bleed because the top bleed comes out a bit faster than the side bleed attacks. But yeah, it does consume more stamina, since it's a zone attack.

Concerning Predator's Mercy, it is fairly dodgeable while maintaining weapon reach from Shaman; I seldom dodged it and landing far away without any way of dealing a punish, but it can happen. However with the recent hotfix, I think they increased recovery time on Predator's Mercy, she cannot spam two consecutive pounces in quick succession like before, effectively rewarding her opponent with a punish should he dodge her pounce. I think this evens out the field. If the pounce lands, Shaman deals huge damage and recovers health. If the pounce misses, it's a free GB on Shaman with a top heavy.

I often find her jumping attack trickier to dodge than her pounce, as strange as this may sound. Her jumping attack has a delayed axe animation hitbox, if you dodge the moment she leaps, you still get hit; you have to dodge slightly afterwards, while she's mid-air and just before she reaches you.

I agree about her throw distance, it's a bit silly. Especially the guaranteed headbutt after a GB throw, which becomes the longest throw distance in the game. Increasing throw distance if opponent has been bled but keeping throw distance normal if no bleed occurred is not a bad idea at all, I like it.