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SenBotsu893
11-26-2017, 01:21 AM
most people will probably agree that the samurai faction has the weakest fighter roster. the most recent addition is no exeption as well.

and i wonder why is it that the samurai characters fall so short in comparison to the counterpart of the other factions.

one thing i noticed is that all samurai characters have only around 120 hp. i gues the idea was that samurai dont get the heavy plate armor and the low hp was supposed to fit that theme. but shouldnt they at least get something in return for the hp handycap?

the other factions fighters are generaly more robust but they dont lack in movement speed or attack speed.
most of them also get some form of bash for easy damage.
even in terms of dbs the knights and vikings generally hit harder.

the newest addition is supposed to be a "tank hybrid" and even he is bound to the assasin hp level.
yes valk is a "tank hybrid" as well with 120 hp but she at least has more assasin like movement and dodgeattacks to make up for that.

so if the samurai are supposed to be this "glas cannon" type then i am missing the "cannon" part.

IlMacgyverIl
11-26-2017, 02:30 AM
most people will probably agree that the samurai faction has the weakest fighter roster. the most recent addition is no exeption as well.

and i wonder why is it that the samurai characters fall so short in comparison to the counterpart of the other factions.

one thing i noticed is that all samurai characters have only around 120 hp. i gues the idea was that samurai dont get the heavy plate armor and the low hp was supposed to fit that theme. but shouldnt they at least get something in return for the hp handycap?

the other factions fighters are generaly more robust but they dont lack in movement speed or attack speed.
most of them also get some form of bash for easy damage.
even in terms of dbs the knights and vikings generally hit harder.

the newest addition is supposed to be a "tank hybrid" and even he is bound to the assasin hp level.
yes valk is a "tank hybrid" as well with 120 hp but she at least has more assasin like movement and dodgeattacks to make up for that.

so if the samurai are supposed to be this "glas cannon" type then i am missing the "cannon" part.

Great post!
The nobushi seems to be the strongest of the bunch, not just because of the recent tournament either.

This is probably the reason why they are retouching them as we move forward.

They already have the kensei on the table, and they asked for orochi feedback.

I think the aramusha, and the shaman, are opening up the flood Gates on reworks that need to happen.

King_of_games-SP
11-26-2017, 03:59 AM
You must be joking. Lets go thru the list.

Kensei has almost as much health as warden and is well within the range of the vanguards with raider having just a tiny bit more.
Shugoki has the highest health in the game and has the potential to heal while dealing damage to the enemy.
Orochi is an assassin but he is actually quite bulky for the assassin class, i might be wrong but out of the 5 assassins i think orochi has the highest hp.
Shinobi is another assassin and is the definition of glass cannon for this game but even then this character was given a boost to hp
Aramusha is new and is the only one i sort of agree with. Being called a heavy/vanguard hybrid i would expect the guy to have a tiny bit more hp, but im pretty sure his hp is fine as is, if he had hp like the real vanguards and heavies i think he would be a little too powerful

King_of_games-SP
11-26-2017, 04:02 AM
Just realized i forgot nobushi, again I'm not surprised by the low hp since she is an assassin/vanguard hybrid with the longest pokes in the game and the hidden stance to avoid damage and counter

TSCDescon
11-26-2017, 04:07 AM
You must be joking. Lets go thru the list.

Kensei has almost as much health as warden and is well within the range of the vanguards with raider having just a tiny bit more.
Shugoki has the highest health in the game and has the potential to heal while dealing damage to the enemy.
Orochi is an assassin but he is actually quite bulky for the assassin class, i might be wrong but out of the 5 assassins i think orochi has the highest hp.
Shinobi is another assassin and is the definition of glass cannon for this game but even then this character was given a boost to hp
Aramusha is new and is the only one i sort of agree with. Being called a heavy/vanguard hybrid i would expect the guy to have a tiny bit more hp, but im pretty sure his hp is fine as is, if he had hp like the real vanguards and heavies i think he would be a little too powerful

With hyper armor Shugoki has 160, without hyper armor it's 120.

How?

25% increase damage when his stance is consumed.

King_of_games-SP
11-26-2017, 04:16 AM
He takes more damage, he doesnt lose health. Try not to confuse those two things

ArchDukeInstinct
11-26-2017, 05:04 AM
most people will probably agree that the samurai faction has the weakest fighter roster. the most recent addition is no exeption as well.

and i wonder why is it that the samurai characters fall so short in comparison to the counterpart of the other factions.

one thing i noticed is that all samurai characters have only around 120 hp. i gues the idea was that samurai dont get the heavy plate armor and the low hp was supposed to fit that theme. but shouldnt they at least get something in return for the hp handycap?

the other factions fighters are generaly more robust but they dont lack in movement speed or attack speed.
most of them also get some form of bash for easy damage.
even in terms of dbs the knights and vikings generally hit harder.

the newest addition is supposed to be a "tank hybrid" and even he is bound to the assasin hp level.
yes valk is a "tank hybrid" as well with 120 hp but she at least has more assasin like movement and dodgeattacks to make up for that.

so if the samurai are supposed to be this "glas cannon" type then i am missing the "cannon" part.

Half of both the Knight and Viking heros have only 120 or less base HP as well (PeaceKeeper, Centurion, Gladiator, Berseker, Valkyrie, Shaman). Though Shaman is a lot more resilient than that given their ability to regain health. Wardens and Highlanders are 130 and 125 respectively.

That leaves us with just Conqueror, Lawbringer, Raider, and Warlord. With the exception of Warlord, these are pretty mediocre classes. Specifically since you mention attack speed and movement speed: These classes have pretty terrible attack speeds in general. 3 out of 4 have 600ms lights compared to the standard 500ms.

As for the "glass cannon" part, I mean... Kensei do 20 damage per light (highest in the game), Orochis double light do more damage than a lot of hero's heavies, Nobushi has some weaker lights but she also gets extra damage when the target is poisoned which is pretty brutal combined with her 38 damage top heavies.


With hyper armor Shugoki has 160, without hyper armor it's 120.

How?

25% increase damage when his stance is consumed.

That's assuming every single attack hits him while his hyper armor is down which I find rather unlikely.

King_of_games-SP
11-26-2017, 05:30 AM
Ive personally always thought it should be the other way around where shugoki takes less damage with his armor and only takes normal damage after its gone. Would make his heavy status more defined and promote a more aggressive playstyle as opposed to the turtle mindset it encourages in its current state

Devils-_-legacy
11-26-2017, 01:34 PM
I always take out a shuts armour first makes them easier to kill then play aggressive so they don't get it the draw brack from it is worse then the benefit in my opinon I'll admit other then ronin the samurai have a lackluster roster but it looks like they had a theme for viking and samurai vikings raw power and samurai precision(other then shug) can't think of a common theme for knights

SenBotsu893
11-26-2017, 06:04 PM
Half of both the Knight and Viking heros have only 120 or less base HP as well (PeaceKeeper, Centurion, Gladiator, Berseker, Valkyrie, Shaman). Though Shaman is a lot more resilient than that given their ability to regain health. Wardens and Highlanders are 130 and 125 respectively.

That leaves us with just Conqueror, Lawbringer, Raider, and Warlord. With the exception of Warlord, these are pretty mediocre classes. Specifically since you mention attack speed and movement speed: These classes have pretty terrible attack speeds in general. 3 out of 4 have 600ms lights compared to the standard 500ms.

As for the "glass cannon" part, I mean... Kensei do 20 damage per light (highest in the game), Orochis double light do more damage than a lot of hero's heavies, Nobushi has some weaker lights but she also gets extra damage when the target is poisoned which is pretty brutal combined with her 38 damage top heavies.


all the other faction 120 hp fighters are classified as assasins though. while samurai tanks and vanguard also have the low hp. i would even argue that peacekeeper and shaman have virtually more hp because of the lvl 2 feat.

if you compare only the vanguards than kensei is clearly the underdog. his "strengt" having the high damaging lights is actually outplayed by wardens double lights wich do more damage and lead directly into his sb/sb gb/sb cancel play.
and raider has by far the better stats. more hp more stamina. higher overall attack. and his pommelstrike is more versitile than any of kenseis lights. sure they do 2 less damage but are more rewarding for stun + stamina drain and are petter implemented into his soft feints.

out of the tanks well jeah warlord is still king no doubt.

nobushi is a good hybrid i agree. but i feel lawbringer is a much saver choice because of the highest hp in the game and the ability to get damage by just blocking. and even though cent is the only one with less than 120 hp of the other factions his charged combo damage is so severe thats what a actuall "Glas cannon" feels like (especailly in 4v4 modes with haymaker).

out of the assasins id say the crown goes clearly to shaman (even if her heavy damage is getting reduced) and Gladioator. sure top lights on orochi are his trademark but thats why everyone will keep the guard up and then orochi has nothing... well exept spamming zone i gues?

TSCDescon
11-26-2017, 09:29 PM
He takes more damage, he doesnt lose health. Try not to confuse those two things

You're missing the point.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-26-2017, 11:37 PM
all the other faction 120 hp fighters are classified as assasins though. while samurai tanks and vanguard also have the low hp. i would even argue that peacekeeper and shaman have virtually more hp because of the lvl 2 feat.

if you compare only the vanguards than kensei is clearly the underdog. his "strengt" having the high damaging lights is actually outplayed by wardens double lights wich do more damage and lead directly into his sb/sb gb/sb cancel play.
and raider has by far the better stats. more hp more stamina. higher overall attack. and his pommelstrike is more versitile than any of kenseis lights. sure they do 2 less damage but are more rewarding for stun + stamina drain and are petter implemented into his soft feints.

out of the tanks well jeah warlord is still king no doubt.

nobushi is a good hybrid i agree. but i feel lawbringer is a much saver choice because of the highest hp in the game and the ability to get damage by just blocking. and even though cent is the only one with less than 120 hp of the other factions his charged combo damage is so severe thats what a actuall "Glas cannon" feels like (especailly in 4v4 modes with haymaker).

out of the assasins id say the crown goes clearly to shaman (even if her heavy damage is getting reduced) and Gladioator. sure top lights on orochi are his trademark but thats why everyone will keep the guard up and then orochi has nothing... well exept spamming zone i gues?

And the Knight/Viking classes who aren't assassins and have more health tend to have worse attack speeds, etc even though you claimed they didn't have drawbacks like that. So what's the problem here?

Why should Aramusha, a heavy/vanguard hybrid, get the HP of a heavy when he doesn't have the attack speed of one? Also another heavy/vanguard hybrid, the highlander, only has 5 extra HP compared to Aramusha and he still has pathetically slow 600ms lights when in his defensive mode...

Yes, Kensei is bottom tier, nobody argued otherwise.

Warlord is normalized now and I know it's not the good old days where Shugoki just repeatedly spammed Oni Charge and got free wins but he's still pretty good with his 160 HP, free hyper armor, and easy ability to regain a ton of health just by parrying near a wall. It's crazy how something like that still exists in the game.

Lawbringer doesn't have guaranteed damage on block, you just dodge the light after the block shove lol

Apparently top light and zone attack is all Orochi needs anyway given they don't have trouble getting top 4 in tournaments such as the Season 3 tournament. They're so weak, they even beat a prenerfed Warlord in the top 8 2-0.

Knight_Raime
11-26-2017, 11:56 PM
I don't agree about them being the weakest actually.
Orochi is still solid enough to be taken to the finals in most tournaments.
Bushi is not bad at all.
Goki isn't bad but isn't good. He's better off than conq imo.
and kensei is bad because of the way the game currently plays. I would argue that valk is actually worse.

If I had to say who was the "best" faction it would probably be knights.
the only bad kit there is conq. And while warden isn't amazing anymore he's still a trouble for most players. I think he's more reliable compared to raider or kensei all skill levels considered.
Centurion's kit is flawed too but at least he works in this meta with being a punish machine.

I tend to view the vikings and samurai as equals.

SenBotsu893
11-27-2017, 05:19 PM
And the Knight/Viking classes who aren't assassins and have more health tend to have worse attack speeds, etc even though you claimed they didn't have drawbacks like that. So what's the problem here?


thats actually wrong and the whole point of my post. if you check the numbers you will see all those higher hp knights/vickings have accsess to 500 ms attacks as well. even conq has a 400ms bash wich since the removal of timesnap grants a free heavy in certain cenarios.
Lawbringer has also 500 ms attacks in his kit and you are bound to get hit after a shove sooner or later. dodge after the shove.. next time hes gonna gb you and then you eat a nice heavy.

and many already mentioned that 160 hp on shugoki is just smoke and mirrors. warlord has still the free damage headbutt AND basically the same armor properties like shugoki with superior block on light and hyperarmor on heavys while not suffering from a 25% damage panalty.

and if you refer to that match where the orochi won by ONLY using zone. that was the ugly truth about how this game is played in tryhard. and thats not how i like to play the game. simply spamming one and the same move over and over again is the exact opposite of fun for me. you could do that with gladiator with even better results.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-28-2017, 07:52 AM
thats actually wrong and the whole point of my post. if you check the numbers you will see all those higher hp knights/vickings have accsess to 500 ms attacks as well.

So basically your argument is that it doesn't matter if you have slow light attacks as long as you have access to faster moves? How unbelievably idiotic.
Almost every single character in this game has a 400ms attack because that's how fast guard break is for most characters. I guess they don't need their slower light attacks anymore, right?
Of course they do, guard breaks are very easy to counter on reaction and you'd be ridiculously predictable if all you did was your fastest attack.


even conq has a 400ms bash wich since the removal of timesnap grants a free heavy in certain cenarios.

Nope, you need to check your numbers again: https://youtu.be/BPF_QafJ4jY?t=1m2s

Furthermore conqueror has to dash to even initiate the shield bash giving you more time to anticipate and then react.
My guess is that you were actually hit with shield bashes done from full block stance or after a heavy, these are slower forms of the move that grant a heavy if successful.


Lawbringer has also 500 ms attacks in his kit and you are bound to get hit after a shove sooner or later. dodge after the shove.. next time hes gonna gb you and then you eat a nice heavy.

This lawbringer "50/50" stuff is so old news, man, if you don't see a light coming immediately after the shove then you don't dodge.


and many already mentioned that 160 hp on shugoki is just smoke and mirrors. warlord has still the free damage headbutt AND basically the same armor properties like shugoki with superior block on light and hyperarmor on heavys while not suffering from a 25% damage panalty.

Again Shugoki only has "120 hp" if every single attack hits you while hyper armor is down. If they wanted Shugoki to be 120 hp, they would have just made him that and got rid of the extra damage when hyper armor is down. This mechanic adds additional depth to the character. Additionally he can regenerate that health without any feats unlike the other heavies. Not sure why you choose to just drive over this crucial fact if you legitimately care to prove what you claim.


and if you refer to that match where the orochi won by ONLY using zone. that was the ugly truth about how this game is played in tryhard. and thats not how i like to play the game. simply spamming one and the same move over and over again is the exact opposite of fun for me. you could do that with gladiator with even better results.

How you want to play is completely irrelevant to the point of this thread.

King_of_games-SP
11-28-2017, 08:51 AM
You're missing the point.no it seems you have missed the point. The point being that shugoki does in fact have 160 hp and losing his armor does not lower the overall amount of health he has, just means the enemy magically does more damage due to a questionable game mechanic. These things are completely different and one of them is a bold faced lie

Tyrjo
11-28-2017, 09:49 AM
Not that it really means anything because heroes play so differently.

HP average
Knights: 128.3
Vikings: 127.5
Samurai: 125.8

Charmzzz
11-28-2017, 10:29 AM
Not that it really means anything because heroes play so differently.

HP average
Knights: 128.3
Vikings: 127.5
Samurai: 125.8

Best answer, I think that the OP misses the point that most Characters are, HP-wise, in a range of 1 Light Attack with the exception of the Heavy-Classes and Raider / Shinobi. 1 Light or 1 Heavy. Don't over-exaggerate this fact please.

Vordred
11-28-2017, 11:20 AM
the only two i think have slightly off HP, are the two Vangaurd/Heavies the Highlander and Aramusha. but even then out of the two i would lean more towards the Highlander, he is a big dude that goes for trades, but has pretty weak HP.

so he either need more HP or needs to hit harder, as currently, the Shaman hits on average about has hard as the Highlander, and only has 5 less HP, not to mention her attacks are way way faster.

Charmzzz
11-28-2017, 12:51 PM
the only two i think have slightly off HP, are the two Vangaurd/Heavies the Highlander and Aramusha. but even then out of the two i would lean more towards the Highlander, he is a big dude that goes for trades, but has pretty weak HP.

so he either need more HP or needs to hit harder, as currently, the Shaman hits on average about has hard as the Highlander, and only has 5 less HP, not to mention her attacks are way way faster.

Hm, maybe consider this before you say that Shaman hits harder than Highlander: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

And do not forget that Highlander has Hyperarmor on his heavy attacks and he can counterstrike with his Lights. I do not want to say that they are on par concerning effectiveness, but that is not related to damage numbers.

Vordred
11-28-2017, 01:35 PM
Hm, maybe consider this before you say that Shaman hits harder than Highlander: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0

And do not forget that Highlander has Hyperarmor on his heavy attacks and he can counterstrike with his Lights. I do not want to say that they are on par concerning effectiveness, but that is not related to damage numbers.

i did consider that before i posted, and i didn't say she hits harder, i said on average about the same. i don't know what you were looking at, but the damage vaules are about the same.

and infact funny enough if you look at spreadsheet you told me to look at, it even says average damage under the attacks, 24.21 and 24 so the same, but that does not include the Bleeds and the bite on the shamans part.

Tyrjo
11-28-2017, 04:58 PM
We also have to remember that damage output is something very different from plain damage values. On paper Shugoki looks awesome.