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View Full Version : The new heros and how I feel/what I'd do.



Knight_Raime
11-17-2017, 09:53 AM
I still feel like it's a bit early to call things since the heros have only been out for a few days but I wanted to get my thoughts and testing out there as I tend to take big breaks from the forums these days. If you're looking for a TLDR of sorts both new heros feel good kit design wise. But ultimately I think Shaman should receive a few nerfs and Aramusha a few buffs. Now onto the testing. My finalized thoughts will be after if you care to read that far:

Shaman: I tested quite a few things. What punishes her pounce/bite, if you can punish her heavy feint into bleed and unblockable heavy feint into GB. I also tested cancel times and delay times. So we will start with those.

~Shaman's pounce/bite can be canceled both hard feint and soft feint about half way through the animation. But the timing of the cancel is entirely dependent on your distance from your target. Meaning if you're within hugging distance or near hugging distance you basically have to input the move and cancel one right after the other.

~shaman's feint cancel into GB and bleed can be delayed slightly. Though I don't personally recommend this for reasons i'll get to very soon.

~You can hit Shaman out of her pounce feint game. You have to do it basically the moment she starts to move towards you. If she's got decent distance that's not happening. You need attacks of 500ms or faster to do so.

~You can punish a whiffed pounce with an untechable GB. If you're a hero that has a dodge bash this also works. And yes. Even if she has you bleeding letting her attempt to bite again she still can be GBed to stop that. Only way it's going to happen is if you were not close enough to GB her intially. You can also punish a whiffed pounce with dodge attacks. However you can't GB her if she missed a dodge heavy. But those are still punishable with dodge attacks.

~Her heavy soft feint into bleed is interruptable if you posses an attack that is 500ms or faster. This is also true of her soft canceling into GB. You basically let your attack fly the moment you get the red indicator of the heavy.

~Also worth mentioning that no method she has to start bleed damage is guaranteed outside deflect. You can block her bleed attempt after being OOS punished by her. You can block her bleed regardless of guard type or wether you were hit or blocked the first half of her zone. And as i've already said you can beat her heavy feint into bleed with 500ms light attacks.

Aramusha: With him I tested when his blade blockade side and top heavies would land. I also tested his "spam" and what can stop it and get you out of it. I didn't have to do much testing with him to be perfectly honest.

~So lets start with his BB top heavy. That is free damage on normal guard heros unless they have their guard already resting in top regardless of what attack you BB. ON reflex heros you only get that off of BBing heavies. They can recover and block your top attack wether their guard was there or not. They can't parry it however.

~His side unblockables are only ever guaranteed if you manage to BB an attack with low recovery. These would be things like warden zone, valk dash attacks, and glad dash attacks.

~Onto his "spam." Tested both on normal guard and reflex guard. Sparing partner in both instances regardless of where his guard was or wether he was hit or not was able to escape the "spam." However it's worth mentioning that if Aramusha hits with a side heavy wether it's blocked or confirmed the top light after is free always. But not vise versa. Your best method to counter this is have guard resting at top as he always has to go that direction. The one exception being when he uses deadly feint (heavy in the same direction as the last landed attack) which allows him to go from left to right. But in order to activate deadly feint you need to land 2 hits in the first place. Assassins can also deflect out of this even if they eat a hit. But you'll need to be dodging in the right direction. I'd personally recommend a forward dodge always. Back dashing and rolling away will not work mid combo.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
So originally I was all about that Shaman i just love her looks asthetically and how she's meant to be an in and out aggressor. But then I learned about Aramusha's deadly feint and saw his potential. So even after watching the live reveal and some other footage pre release I had no idea who I wanted to "main." Well after testing and playing both heros the past few days my favorite of the 2 is actually Aramusha. As much as I love Shaman her tempo is just...weird. I'm sure i'll get used to it and be even better if I play more (and I certainly will) but Aramusha has my heart.

So now is the part that I talk about what i'd like to see be done with both heros. I originally stated with Shaman that I wanted her bite to lose some damage, her pounce to lose the splat ability, her bleed lights toned down damage wise, maybe some heavy attack damage nerfs (mainly due to her easy as pie OOS punish,) and some added recovery so she's a bit slower. Well here is my revised list of changes:

~dial down bite damage to half or maybe 3/4ths of it's current damage and tone back her bleed pokes along with it. The current bar and a half damage that she does from bite alone I think is what should be doable from both a bleed poke AND a bite. Potentially also keep an eye on her heal amount from bite and getting full stamina from bite. I think we should do the damage nerf first and see where that sits before nerfing those 2 things.

~She should still lose splat capability with pounce. She gets 2 confirmed lights from the same direction at most distances. If she didn't get a confirmed pounce and/or a confirmed heavy from throw I wouldn't be suggesting this nerf.

~her lunge range on her wild cats rage needs to be cut in half or nearly half. and it should be slowed slightly OR given extra recovery at the end so a whiffed scenario is possible and she can be punished.

~Her pounce can currently be soft canceled into wildcats rage and back. And also be canceled quickly with a hard feint all with practically no recovery in the process. So one of 2 nerfs needs to happen. Either she can only freely cancel in her current cancel range (which is up to half the distance she can travel) with soft feinting and her hard feint only lets her cancel it immediately. OR They need to nerf the recovery on her dodge and dash distance/recovery. I understand that currently she's designed around using pounce/wildcats feint game in order to get in on someone and get out. I want to preserve this. But these changes seek to add in more realistic punish opportunities for good reads.

~side heavy damage should be nerfed. We no longer live in a world with health regen from standing around. being able to do lethal damage so easily with such a quick and variable attack is just overkill. This would lessen the pain of those whiff punishes from range on wildcats rage and also tone down her OOS punish which needs to happen since it's so easy to do.

As far as Aramusha goes there are only 3 suggestions I feel are fair. If he needs more beyond that I really can't say.

~remove him Being GBed in his opening light attack. The devs already know that this only makes attacking feel punished and it's why they changed it so certain heros can't be GBed mid attack anymore like they used to be. So they just need to continue to follow through with that and fix this.

~make his heavy finishers in chains be unblockable. If you have to increase the stamina cost for balance reasons fine. But it will force people to react instead of turtle.

~make his top heavy after BBing guaranteed no matter what attack on what guard type/guard location. But reduce the damage of it so it's not the 100% always go for option. Currently he gets 28 damage off of a kick into a surface doing a side heavy into top light. 10 damage+ potentially more with the light after BB. and i'm at a loss on what to do with his side heavies or wether anything needs to be done about them. They do serve a purpose. Just don't know if it's enough at this current time.

You'll notice I left out giving him a heavy off of a GB. I'm aware other heros for the most part can do this. However the devs are making changes to parry. They don't want parry>GB>heavy anymore. So likely that ability is going to be removed from everyone this season or next. Anyway, I appreciate if you've read this far. I have absolutely no clue when i'll do my write up guide on the Aramusha but i'll try to get it up at some point. But it's something to look forward to if you happen to enjoy my ramblings. Anyway. Peace.

Knight_Raime
11-18-2017, 01:58 AM
Nice suggestions, and very useful testings.
I made a thread a couple days ago with some suggestions for Aramusha, and one of them was to be able to do the side UB heavy after BB (Twin Vipers) after a kick, which would mean a better wallsplat punish with the kick, increasing the amount of options you have after BB.


I still think he should get a heavy off a GB, they're not removing that, just the ability to get a free GB after a parry.
Personally, I don't have much of a problem with him not having a heavy after GB, but it is a bit unfair, considering every other character but Highlander/Raider/Shugoki gets a heavy off GB. (Though Raider and Shugoki have something to make up for the lack of heavy off GB with Raider's charge and Shugoki's home run.

Just from landing the kick or getting it if the kick wall splats someone?
Let me rephrase. As long as parries give guardbreaks I don't want him getting a heavy from a GB. I don't think anyone should get that unless your heavy is fast.

Vakris_One
11-18-2017, 03:10 AM
Pretty good suggestions. I also think that Aramusha's finishers should be made unblockable as that would even him out versus turtles. After people get used to him I feel like he will be getting blocked and parried a lot. Kind of like the Shinobi's ranged GB - everyone expects it now and Shinbobi's very rarely get their ranged GB's off in 1v1s without being punished. Giving him unblockable finishers will keep him relevant in the long run. I was thinking maybe giving Aramusha a way to do his kick from neutral rather than just from blade blockade but unblockable finishers fit his sense of flow more and he won't need both.

What do you think of Shaman's throw distance? Should it be reduced or stay the same?

Knight_Raime
11-18-2017, 03:20 AM
Pretty good suggestions. I also think that Aramusha's finishers should be made unblockable as that would even him out versus turtles. After people get used to him I feel like he will be getting blocked and parried a lot. Kind of like the Shinobi's ranged GB - everyone expects it now and Shinbobi's very rarely get their ranged GB's off in 1v1s without being punished. Giving him unblockable finishers will keep him relevant in the long run. I was thinking maybe giving Aramusha a way to do his kick from neutral rather than just from blade blockade but unblockable finishers fit his sense of flow more and he won't need both.

What do you think of Shaman's throw distance? Should it be reduced or stay the same?

I had seen the suggestion in the competitive sub about allowing aramusha to do all of his BB things without having to counter. it's..an interesting idea. But I think it would ruin his image and theme tbh. I personally don't see the need for her to have that far of a throw distance. she already gets a confirmed pounce/bite or leaping heavy from throw. I certainly don't think it's a pressing matter at the moment because most duel areas have been fixed to be less environmental. But I would suggest it gets toned down at some point in the future. Her kit doesn't need it. It just facilitates extra power that she frankly doesn't need.

Justicator
11-20-2017, 02:11 PM
Wow can't believe i hadn't read this until now. I hope more people do. I agree with everything said. Its funny how I basically agree with you on everything, and the only difference is that you believe she is 'overtuned' while i believe that she is OP for basically the same reasons. If only the devs would listen to you and implement these changes. And these changes could be easily implemented, it's not like they have to go and do another set of mo-cap as they are for some of the OG cast...