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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:26 AM
I vote:

Grumman F4F Wildcat


http://gallery02.kitparade.com/images/f4f4ho_title.jpg



It wasn't the fastest, or the fastest climbing. And it was overshadowed by the Hellcat and Corsair. But it was there before any of those, holding the line, dealing the first unrecoverable blows to the Imperial Japanese Naval Air Force.

All hail the Wildcat!

http://www.brooksart.com/Gallantco.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Hiei.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Warmreception.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Marineace.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/number20.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/aceinaday.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Toughnails.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Magfight.jpg


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:26 AM
I vote:

Grumman F4F Wildcat


http://gallery02.kitparade.com/images/f4f4ho_title.jpg



It wasn't the fastest, or the fastest climbing. And it was overshadowed by the Hellcat and Corsair. But it was there before any of those, holding the line, dealing the first unrecoverable blows to the Imperial Japanese Naval Air Force.

All hail the Wildcat!

http://www.brooksart.com/Gallantco.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Hiei.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Warmreception.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Marineace.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/number20.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/aceinaday.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Toughnails.jpg

http://www.brooksart.com/Magfight.jpg


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:35 AM
I vote Bearcat.

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:48 AM
hellcat for sure. The Wildcat was a great plane, but the Hellcat really put the nail in the coffin, so to speak. Japanese pilots after the war generally agreed that the Hellcat was their toughest opponent.

"The Grumman Hellcat destroyed Japanese air-power. Between August 1943 and August 1945... shooting down more than 5,200 Japanese aircraft..." (Pacific Fighters, p35)

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:55 AM
I agree with the Hellcat.

Nice sig Dosiere

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:58 AM
it's only a model

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_09.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:59 AM
Id have to go with the Hellcat too.. The Bearcat was nice but it wasnt in the running since it didnt play a major role in the war.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:03 AM
"Nice sig Dosiere"

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Thanks. I became very frustrated one day after seeing this one day maybe 5 times, so I decided I may as well make it my sig since I was seeing it every day anyway. The last part you can thank Ven and Tully for.

The Hellcat had roughly a 19:1 kill:loss ratio as well.

I have all kinds of stuff here about Pacific Fighters in WW2, just tell me what ya wanna know and Ill post it.


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Message Edited on 10/23/0311:06PM by US_8th_Dosiere

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:03 AM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I'm with Huck:: Messerschmitt Fb109T for Graf Zeppelin

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:09 AM
im gona have to go with the seafire series

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:13 AM
Here are some great and interseting pictures of the Hellcat.

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.html


Btw Chimp, I love the pics.

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The_Blue_Devil
10-24-2003, 04:25 AM
Wildcat has my vote..she was plug ugly, tough as nails, and nimble as all hell. Most importantly..She got her job done at a Critical time.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


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Message Edited on 10/24/0303:28AM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:43 AM
Corsair...had its problems but was one of the fastest carrierborne aircraft once the problems were worked out.

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"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:09 AM
My vote would be a tie between the F4F and the F6F with the F4U coming in a very close second. The Corsair wins for looks though./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:21 AM
I think it's the Bearcat. I know it didn't fight, but that's what it was built for -- WWII.



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:44 AM
F7F Tigercat, hey someone had to vote for a twin /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . Best single engine naval fighter was the F4U, it was a bit of a rookie killer though.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:01 AM
does any one remember the movie were the 1980s era carrier went back in time to just before pearl i think it was the philladelpha project. if you count that id say the f14 tom lol

"life moves preaty fast if you dont stop and look around once and a while you could miss it" {Ferris Bueller}

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:08 AM
Corsair baby.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:14 AM
Hellcat...

As for coolness, Corsair.

As for even more coolness, Bearcat.

Cool, but ugly. All of them.


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:56 AM
"does any one remember the movie were the 1980s era carrier went back in time to just before pearl i think it was the philladelpha project. if you count that id say the f14 tom lol"

Yes I remember it, 'The Final Countdown'. Kirk Douglas was the captain. Its one of my '80s favorites. Tomcat vs Zero - nothing like American pride... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:12 AM
I'd have to go w/ the Zero. Like the wildcat, it was overshadowed by later models of AC, but it's performance in '41 made it one of the best fighters in the world bar-none.



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:06 AM
US_8th_Dosiere wrote:
- Here are some great and interseting pictures of the
- Hellcat.
-
- <a
- href="http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/f6f.
- html"
- target=_blank>http://www.aviation-history.com/grum
- man/f6f.html</a>
-
-
-
Yoiks. Lieutenant Walter Chewning had balls of steel, climbing onto a burning plane to rescue the pilot. I hope they both made it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:19 AM
Falcon 41,

LOL; nice M.P. reference; well done.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:22 AM
Even as late as 1942 The Zero was still the stand out perfomance aircraft in the Pacific.

The Hell Cat is a product of America looking to make certain that they could put an end to the menace that the Zero had become.

To actualy be able to get their hands on a Zero and study it closley helped a great deal in making sure that the Zeros dominance in the Pacific would finaly end.

That was the biggest down fall of the Zero, it was never improoved on, and in the end the USN Airforce did to the Zero what the Zero had done to everybody else earlier in the War.

S!

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:26 AM
the question reads. ....GREATEST naval fighter of ww2 . well thats DEFINITELY not a wildcat or zero. not under any definition. and the statistics on speed climb dive etc on hellcat and corsair are about identical. two different looking planes with almost identical statistics overall. the greatest naval fighter of ww2 is a tie. and the winners are the hellcat and corsair. neither was better than the other. there were more hellcats and they got more kills because of it . the corsair was better looking. other than those two differences they were basically identical twins in flight. generally speaking that is. the united states cornered the market on naval fighters and the last nail in the coffin would have been the bearcat f8f if we invaded japan. and then the bearcat would have beaten the other planes. but it never got any kills

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:27 AM
Silly question! Why, it's the Hawker Sea Fury of course.

(And the first British one to be mentioned in this thread! Apart from the Seafire. And it didn't quite make WWII!!)


Message Edited on 10/24/0309:08AM by ELEM

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:28 AM
If your talking about best overall Naval fighter I would have to say the -4 Corsair. Not only the best Naval fighter of WWII but perhaps the best "overall" pistion driven fighter ever produced. Here are some facts (link below) about the F4U-4 Corsair. It didn't make it into the PTO until the early summer of '45 but it did make it into combat flying strikes on Okinawa and the Japanese mainland.

The author gives an honest ascessment based on facts.
From what I know about WWII fighters this is a fairly accurate description on the merits of the fighters listed.
The Corsair stayed in production thru the mid 1950's. Longer than any other propeller driven fighter. Last seeing combat in the Central American Soccer War in the late 60's where several had kills over P-51's.



http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html





---
<font color=white font size="3" face="arial"Col. "Fury" CO
<font size="3"><font face="bd hanover">352nd Fighter Group </font> [VR]
<font face="bd hanover">328th, 486th, 487th Fighter Squadrons</font>
<font><font color="#330099"><font size="5"><font face="brush script mt">"Second To None!"</font>

<font>[b]<font size="2" font color=black>[(HL)_352FG; (UBI) USAAF_352FG]: The<font><font color=#330099 face="brush script mt"font size="5">"First"</font><font color=black font size="2"> 352FG in IL-2FB</font>



Message Edited on 10/24/0303:23PM by PZ_D_352FG

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:35 AM
Brewster of course! Best kill ratio of all planes in right hands (though not used carrier-borne, but navy plane nevertheless).

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:56 AM
CORSAIR

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:21 AM
Considering actual service, impact, and workload.. as well as performance, it's got to be the Grumman F6F Hellcat, no doubt at all.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

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fluke39
10-24-2003, 10:27 AM
if we're talking greatest - then i'm not sure as i don't have access to enough stats or resources to tell which did best - but as for my favourite - it would have to be a toss up between the wildcat and hellcat - as both are pretty similar in appearance and performance (i think).

although many consider them ugly i think they have 'character' - and what many consider 'ugly' i would consider 'mean' and 'powerful'(even pugnacious perhaps!)! the term pocket battleship springs to mind - small but powerful /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

nice model by the way sky chimp (and piccy's)

can't wait till one is perhaps modelled in FB (would be pretty darned good to see the 4 x 20mm version of F5 modelled too)

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:32 AM
I think when you talk about Greatness! history shows that people remember conflict in the air by a particular oustanding aircraft that took part in each conflict.

If you took a poll from non combatent nations most people outside of the UK would readily associate the Battle of Britain with the Spitfire.

People outside the Pacific region would readily associate the Pacific War with ( thats right you guessed it) the Japanese Zero!

Then of course we break that down into Aircraft that fought on each side, as to who was the best, at particular time periods of each conflict.

A hundred years from now, people outside of the Pacific Nations studying history will readily associate the Pacific War first and foremost with the Japanese Zero.

Now there is a measure of true greatness for you.

S!

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:38 AM
I suppose I could be cheeky and say the Sea Fury.
The prototype flew in Feb 45, but it wasn't ready
for naval operations until 1947, sadly.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:16 AM
A6M 'Zero' for sure /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fluke39
10-24-2003, 11:45 AM
VW-IceFire wrote:

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

sorry to be picky ice fire - i noticed this a long time ago - but thought you'd corrected it, and it kinda bugs me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif - but do you know you've mis spelt - tempest?





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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:54 AM
I'd Definetly have to Say the Corsair.

My Reasons:

-->The Most advanced Fighter built previous to the Jet Age
-->The Best Fighter Built to Counter-Attack the Zeros
-->Sexy looking
-->Ripper of a 13 Ft Prop, Hence the Gull Wing To life the plane Higher
-->Sexy Looking
-->Used to beat the hell outta the Zero
-->Sexy Looking

Beside the Fact that it had its problems in the beginning, Its still probably the best WWII plane ever built, It was even upgraded to Fighter-Bomber.
IT COULD CARRY 1500 PUNDS OF ORDINANCE as well as fully take on a zero in a dogfight. Damn Nice.



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:41 PM
An additinal vote for the F4F Wildcat..........and an extra bonus to the Grumman iron works for a tough plane./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:49 PM
Corsair without a doubt.
http://www.topgunillustrations.com/wpe4.gif


I was going to vote for the seafire but didnt because of the fragile landing gear and wasnt as rugged

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:43 PM
Have to agree SkyChimp. The F4F was there at the beginning, and still fighting at the end, in just about every theatre of operation, in almost every conceiveable role.

What it gave up in flight performance numbers it made up in strength and durability.

Absolutely my favorite naval aircraft of any time period.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:50 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the P-38 shoot down more enemy planes than any other allied plane in the PTO.

I seem to recall that they sometimes flew off carriers as well.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:09 PM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:
- Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the P-38 shoot
- down more enemy planes than any other allied plane
- in the PTO.
-
- I seem to recall that they sometimes flew off
- carriers as well.
-
-


I bet they didn't land on one.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:26 PM
Brewster ofcourse..

without doubt the best planes shot down / lost-ratio /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.gdes.pp.fi/images/Brewster_2.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:33 PM
i have to cast my vote for the Corsair - great plane !

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:41 PM
Of course, the F6F Hellcat!

Look is nothing, stats are everything.


The F4U Corsair is IMO the best naval FIGHTER-BOMBER of WW2.


On the Japanese side, even if the GEORGE was a land-based naval fighter, I would say the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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<center>http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/tempestv_t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:45 PM
Hellcat. Nothing else even comes close.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:54 PM
Corsair, simply the best /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 10/24/0302:58PM by CSL_Jp-

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:02 PM
Since the Hellcat and Corsair are so evenly matched, performance wise, the Corsair wins with looks. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Although there are plenty of honorable mentions, imo, they have already been posted.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:16 PM
The zero certainly was not the best fighter of the Pacific However, it will forever be associated with the Pacific war.History will continue to keep it's name in front. For that reason, my vote goes to "Zero"

The_Blue_Devil
10-24-2003, 04:22 PM
If I'm not mistaken..most of the pilots that were aces in the Corsair..were made aces in the Hellcat first. I.E. they got the lions share of their kills in that bird.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

The_Blue_Devil
10-24-2003, 04:24 PM
POP QUIZ: What do the Jug and Corsair have in common..Besides being huge?

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:59 PM
My sentimental favorite is the FM-2 version of the Wildcat, but the words are Greatest Naval Fighter of WWII, which makes it the F6F Hellcat.

Nothing else comes close. Corsairs didn't have enough carrier time to qualify (and the old joke about the Corsair being faster than the Hellcat only 4 out of 7 days comes into play here as well. Up time, baby), Seafires were too fragile to survive many landings, Zeros were too fragile to survive being hit, and as for Fleet Air Arm's original offerings, well, the less said the better.


The Wildcat is the Navy's version of the P-40. It held the line when they were all we had, but unlike the Warhawk, we could have ridden the Wildcat all the way to the end if we had to, in the FM-2/F4F-7 tall tailed versions.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:06 PM
Well since the P-51 passed its carrier quailification trials, the the P-51 is the "greatest naval fighter" of WW2./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:08 PM
The Corsair is also a great plane, but I dont believe it was the best "naval" plane of WW2. It was used by the USMC from land bases for much of its career, as it had several problems keeping it from operating safely from carriers when it first appeared.

The Zero is more myth than reality. It was routinely outclassed by "inferior" F4F Wildcats in the opening months of the war. It was scary at first I am sure, but it never really did that great against the US, truth be told. After the Hellcat and Corsair started joining the show, Zeros fell like flies.

The Bearcat never saw any action, so I dont think it deserves a spot here.

The Wildcat did indeed have a major effect on the war. The planes contributions should never be forgotten. It held the line when the US needed it most, and often did so against overwhelming odds. However, when compared to the Hellcat, i believe the F6 wins out in the end.

When you compare the numbers: planes produced, kills, number of sorties, etc... The Hellcat wins hands down. Sure, the Corsair was pretty, but that doesn't really matter here.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:10 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- POP QUIZ: What do the Jug and Corsair have in
- common..Besides being huge?


Engine.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:51 PM
Falcon_41 wrote:
- it's only a model

LOL! Very funny! Name that movie.

Although I'm with Chimpy in that the Wildcat is my fave naval fighter, I'd still have to say the Hellcat was the greatest. Especially since it put the clamps on the previous greatest naval fighter: the Zero.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:55 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- POP QUIZ: What do the Jug and Corsair have in
- common..Besides being huge?
-

Ugliness ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
10-24-2003, 07:11 PM
Nope..El Aurens got it coreect..both share the Double Wasp Engine..which is why the jug is the bastard child of the USAAF...it has a navy engine.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:23 PM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:
- Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the P-38 shoot
- down more enemy planes than any other allied plane
- in the PTO.

The Hellcat has the record as a type for the most enemy a/c (that's of all enemy, not just Japanese) shot down for the U.S..

- I seem to recall that they sometimes flew off
- carriers as well.

It was only for ferrying purposes. This was not uncommon. Some P-47s were delivered the same way. Hurris (in the Arctic and Med.) and Spits (Med.) too.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:24 PM
Greatest Naval Figther of WWII? That's a tough one... I guess the "Zero" is the most famous one, but the greatest must be the "Wildcat", flown from the beginning to the end against all opposition...

And I'd rather sit in a "Wildcat" and have the slower, better armed, better armoured aircraft and the teamwork than a "Zero" and have the aerocrobatic, puny guns, no armor (even no radio) and samurai-like figthing style (one-on-one)

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:48 PM
Lilhorse, the Hellcat didn't shoot down the most planes. That is a myth to counter a myth. It shot down more in the Pacific than the P-51 did in the ETO, but the Mustang passes it when the RAF and PTO scores are added. It is very close.

Which year? Late model types generally always win these type questions, but if you go year to year it is different.

1941- A6M
1942- F4F
1943- F6F
1944- F4U
1945- F4U-4

Just my opinion, of course. The -4 was a great plane, surely in the running as "best of WW2".

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:09 PM
Great pics, Sky Chimp!

I dunno about "greatest" - do you mean most capable, or the obne that had the greatest impact? Despite later planes being infinitely more capable, the Wildcat surely hits the emotional button for Americans like myself, while I imagine that the Zero must do the same for Japanese.

What I wonder about is how Brits regard the Fairey Fulmar and Firefly? The Fulmar was designed to do the wrong job, and even the Firefly was only marginally capable, but the people who flew missions in them were brave indeed.

OT here but I would love to have Fulmars and Fireflys and Skuas and Swordfish to set against the 109T's and Zeros just to see what might have happened....

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:27 PM
The P-38 might have been transported by carriers, but never operated off of them. It's not a Navy plane, anyway.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:46 PM
i say a Supermarine Seafire Mk III

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/BARC/images/seafire1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:15 PM
Slickun wrote:
- Which year? Late model types generally always win
- these type questions, but if you go year to year it
- is different.
-
- 1941- A6M
- 1942- F4F
- 1943- F6F
- 1944- F4U
- 1945- F4U-4

Do you take into account the Battle of Philippine Sea of June 1944, the greatest carrier battle of the war?

Because only 3 radar-equipped F4U Corsairs had taken part in this battle as the main fleet fighter was the F6F.

<center>Qui vainc sans risque triomphe sans gloire.</center>
<center>http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/tempestv_t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:28 PM
Love the Wildcat, got some weird curves, but if you don't love it now, you bet ur s$$ your going to love it soon.

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
<center>It's your fault... <center>
Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW
http://www.uploadit.org/files/220903-Boosher%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:32 PM
I have to vote for the Hellcat. Over 6,000 Japanese aircraft destroyed by carrier based aircraft. Over 4,500 were destroyed by Hellcats. Not too shabby/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/images/p-38_head_on.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:36 PM
Naval planes are far too ugly to be considered "great".

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:41 PM
fordfan25 wrote:
- does any one remember the movie were the 1980s era
- carrier went back in time to just before pearl i
- think it was the philladelpha project. if you count
- that id say the f14 tom lol


Yeah..the Final Countdown....although The Philidelphia Exepriment was a fantastic movie and as wild as it seems it was based on fact. The Philadelphia Experiment 2 was nice as well.... Guy goes back to Nazi Germany and changes it so Germany wins the war...... very intersting if you like the time travel stuff.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:41 PM
you've never heard the term "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

The corsair is one the "baddest" looking planes of WW2 according to my aesthetical tastes.

Your universial idiotic claim in invalid baldie.


rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/241003-rogo3.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:44 PM
Chimp, I gotta say the F6F Hellcat. Better performance than the F4F,

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:48 PM
Bronco_Nagurski wrote:
- The P-38 might have been transported by carriers,
- but never operated off of them. It's not a Navy
- plane, anyway.
-
-

You are so right. hard to fly without the wings attached!

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/p38oz03.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:08 PM
B25.
http://www.ivanberryman.com/images/xdhm1106_small.JPG

rad

http://www.nurple.com/sideshow/schlitz.gif
The Rad

Message Edited on 10/24/0304:09PM by radkiller

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:31 PM
eiffel68 wrote-
- Do you take into account the Battle of Philippine
- Sea of June 1944, the greatest carrier battle of the
- war?
-
- Because only 3 radar-equipped F4U Corsairs had taken
- part in this battle as the main fleet fighter was
- the F6F.

WEll sure. But the question was "greatest". Does that mean the MVP,or Player of the year?

I think the Corsair is a better plane than the Hellcat (player of the year). It began to really make its mark in 1944, so I went with it.

If we're talking the plane that did the most (MVP) it has to be the Hellcat.

Just my opinion.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:53 PM
Without a doubt the Corsair.

The major problem the US faced when entering WW2 was that the majority of aircraft in service were obsolete-ie Wildcats & Brewsters. This fact caused many US casualties.
Every Brewster Buffalo stationed on Midway Island was shot down during the Battle for Midway Island in 1942. The USMC hated the plane. Only a handful of Wildcats survived the Japanese attacks.

If you read the books of USN/USMC pilots that flew the Wildcat, you would realize just how outclassed the F4F was by the Zero. It is even more remarkable to consider the feats these pilots acomplished flying this little underpowered plane--ie Joe Foss USMC Pilot: first American to tie Rickenbacker's record of 26 kills.

Wildcat Pilots observations/sayings:

*There are 2 types of Wildcat pilots, those who have ground looped and those who will ground loop-ie poor landing gear.

*If you are by yourself in a F4F and see a Zero--run away you are out numbered.


The only way the Wildcat survived was by superior Team ACM tactics -ie the "Thatch Weave". It also had ruggedness, amor, self-sealing fuel tanks, radio and a parachute--The Zero did not have these features or their equipment did not work well (radio) or the pilot choose not to carry it in the plane (parachute)--code of "Bushido".


__________


On the other hand the Corsair prototype was the first US plane to break the 400mph barrier.

The F4U-1 had about a 40mph speed advantage (417mph @ 19,900ft) over the F6F-3 Hellcat (380mph).

The F4U had greater range than the Hellcat.

The F4U could carry a greater payload than the Hellcat.

The F4U's gull shaped wings were better suited for emergency water landings and pilot survival when ditching in the sea.

In a fly off between the Corsair vs Hellcat by the USN, the Corsair was proven to be the overall superior aircaraft--Corsair: by Barret Tillman Naval Institue Press.

You will notice what the Navy did after the Marines showed them what the Corsair could do. After the Corsair finally passed Carrier Ops Qualifications according to USN standards, the Navy replaced the Hellcats with Corsairs as fast as they could.

The F4U-4 (446mph @ 26,200ft) could be considered the best overall Fighter or Fighter/Bomber of WW2. It climbed very well and was a tremendus dogfighter in the vertical. It was tougher and could carry a bigger payload than a P47.

The F4U-5 (469mph @ 26,800ft.) did not come out in time to see combat in WW2.

_________________

The Bearcat was borne out of the need to suppress the Kamikaze problem. It was a lightweight interceptor and an incredible dogfighter. Too bad it didnt make WW2 in time.

My dad was an USMC Pilot in both WW2, Korea and flew all these planes. As a pure fighter the Bearcat could not be touched.


Overall Champ though goes to the Corsair !





Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:57 PM
TIGER111th wrote:
- CORSAIR

did he said CORSAIR???/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I want 1 too plz with a hook and a carrier/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fly at HL as
<font color=#"000000"><FONT SIZE="+1"><marquee>>>>>>>>>>Aceman<<<<<<<<<<</marquee></font>
</font>
http://defence-data.com/storypic/spitfire.jpg

"Take off,is only the beginnigg
Bail out, is YOUR end."

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:07 AM
BigKahuna_GS wrote:

-
-
- You will notice what the Navy did after the Marines
- showed them what the Corsair could do. After the
- Corsair finally passed Carrier Ops Qualifications
- according to USN standards, the Navy replaced the
- Hellcats with Corsairs as fast as they could.
-
-

You forgot to mention the FAA was flying the Corsair off carriers and landing before the USN./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:17 AM
Did the Zero really outclass the Wildcat? They had similar top speeds (A6M2 vs F4F-4). The Zero may have climbed better, but the Wildat dove better. Zero was better in turn, Wildcat better in roll. The Wildcat was much tougher, and better armed.

One on one, the advantage was probably with the Zero. In groups, I think the edge went to the Wildcat due to team tactics.

The FW-2 was a different story. MUCH better climb and better speed. Lighter weight with better wingloading made for better turning.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:25 AM
Obviously not COMPLETELY outclassed!



An excert from Saburo Saki's book Samurai! Saburo Sakai pages 160-162

The dogfight with James "Pug" Southerland flyingF4F Wildcat Bu 5192, over Guadalcanal

"...The Wildcat was clinging grimly to the tail of a Zero, its tracers chewing up the wings and tail. In despiration, I snapped out a burst. At once the Grumman snapped away in a roll to the right, clawed around in a tight turn, and ended uo in a climb straight at my own plane. Never before had I seen an enemy plane move so quickly or gracefully before, and every second his guns were moving closer to the belly of my fighter. I snap-rolled in an effort to throw him off. He would not be shaken. He was using my favorite tactics, coming up from under.

I chopped the trottle back and the Zero shuddered as its speed fell. It worked; his timing off the enemy pilot pulled back in a turn. I slammed the trottle forward again, rolling to the left. Three times I rolled the Zero, then dropped in a spin, and came out in a left verticalspiral. The Wildcat matched me turn for turn.Our left wings pointed at a right angle to the sea below us, the right wing at the sky.

Neither of us could gain the advantage. We held to the spiral, trmendous G pressures pushing us down in our seats with every passing second. My heart pounded wildly, and my head felt as if it weighed a ton. A gray film seemed to be clouding my eyes. I gritted my teeth; if the enemy pilot could take it, so could I. The man who failed first and turned in any other direction to ease the pressure would be finished.

On the fifth spiral, the Wildcat skidded slightly, I had him, I though. But the Grumman dropped his nose, gained speed, and the pilot again had his plane in full control. There was a terrific man behind that stick.

He made his error, however, in the next moment. Instead of swing back to go into a sixth spiral, he fed power to his engine, broke away at an angle, and looped. That was the decisive split second. I went right after him, cutting inside the Grumman's arc, and came out on his tail. I had him. He kept flying loops, trying to narrow the distance of each arc. Everytime he went up and around I cut inside his arc and lessened the distance between our two planes. The Zero could outfly any fighter in the world in this kind of manuver.

When I was only fifty yards away, the Wildcat broke out of his loop and astonished me by flying straight and level. At this distance I would not need the cannon; I pumped 200 rounds into the Grumman's cockpit, watching the bullets chewing up the thin metal skin ans ahattering the glass.

I could not believe what I saw; the Wildcat continued flying almost as if nothing had happened. A Zero which had taken that many bullets into its vital cockpit would have been a ball of fire by now. I could not understand it. I slammed the trottle forward and closed in to the American plane, just as the enemy fighter lost speed. In a momentI was ten yards ahead of the Wildcat, trying to slow down. I hunched my shoulders, prepared for the onslaught of his guns, I was trapped.

No bullets came. The Wildcat's guns remained silent. The entire situation was unbelievable. I dropped my speed until our planes were flying wing-to-wing formation. I opened my cockpit window and staired out. The WIldcat's cockpit canopy was already back, and I could see the pilot clearly. He was a big man, with a round face. He wore a light khaki uniform. He appeared to be middle-aged, not as young as I had expected.

For several seconds, we flew along in our bizarre formation, our eyes meting across the narrow space between the two planes. The Wildcat was a shambles. Bullet holes had cut the fuselage and wings up from one end to the other. The skin of the rudder was gone, and the metal ribs stuck out like a skeleton. Now I understood his horizontal flight, and also why the pilot had not fired. Blood stained his right shoulder, and I saw the dark patch moving downwards over his chest. It was incredible that his plane was still in the air.

But this was no way to kill a man! Not with him flying helplessly, wounded, his plane a wreck. I raised my left hand and shook my fist at him shouting uselessly, I knew, for him to fight instead of flying along like a clay pigeon. The American looked startled; he raised his right hand weakly and waved.

I had never felt so strange before. I had killed many Americans in the air, but this was the first time a mna had weakedned in such a fasion directly before my eyes, and from the wounds I had inflicted upon him. I honestly, didn't know whether or not I should try and finish him off. Such thoughts were stupid, of course. Wounded or not, he was the enemy, and he had almost taken three of my own men a few minutes before. However, there was no reason to aim for the pilot again. I wanted the plane, not the man.

I dropped back and came again in on his tail. Somehow the American calledupon a reserve of strength and the Wildcat jerked into a loop. That was it. His nose started up. I aimed carefully at the engine, and barely touched the cannon trigger. A birst of flame and smoke exploed outward from the engine. The Wildcat rolled and the pilot bailed out. Far below me, almost directly over the Guadalcanal coast, his parachute opened. The pilot did not grasp the shroud lines, but hung limply in his chute. The last I saw of him he was drifiting in towards the beach..."

Sakai's autobiography, originally pubished in 1957.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:31 AM
That's an excellent book and Saburo tells enthralling stories. Great post.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:56 AM
The greatest does not necessarily imply best performer. The Zero, specifically the A6M2, has the be the "greatest" carrier fighter in WW2. Japan's offensive strategy in the Pacific was heavily influenced by the Zero. The Japanese had complete, and well-founded confidence in the ability of the A6M2 to gain air-superiority.

From 1941 through 1943 the Zero was dominant fighter in the Pacific. It was greatly feared by its opponents and operated for months in combat before suffering an air-to-air loss. The extreme range of the Zero must also have been a shock for the allies, allowing it to appear in unexpected places.

From a technical standpoint the Zero was faster, more maneuverable, and as well armed as its carrier based opponents until 1943. Added to this was the skill of the first generation of Zero pilots. Trained not only in tactics, but, physically conditioned to withstand the rigors of air combat.

Without the Zero, I wonder if the war in the Pacific would have happened? If it did, how much different would the battles have been?

S!

faust

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:08 AM
ELEM wrote:
- Silly question! Why, it's the Hawker Sea Fury of
- course.
-
- (And the first British one to be mentioned in this
- thread! Apart from the Seafire. And it didn't quite
- make WWII!!)
-
-
- Message Edited on 10/24/03 09:08AM by ELEM

Have to agree.

Best fighter and so damn good looking as well!

http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Dilbert/Fist-Of-Death.gif


ALICE FOR MODERATOR!

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:08 AM
I found this Action report from Guadalcanal and have cut and pasted interesting comments about the aircraft:

U.S.S. ENTERPRISE (CV6)
CV6/A16-3 (95-mmb)Serial 0019 August 24, 1942.

From: Commanding Officer.
To: The Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet.
Via: (1) Commander Task Force 16.(2) Commander Task Force 61. (Vice Admiral F.J. Fletcher, U.S. Navy).
Subject: Operations in Support of Occupation of Tulagi - Guadalcanal, August 7 - 8, 1942 - Report of.
Reference: (a) Articles 712 and 874, Navy Regulations, 1920.
Enclosures: A. Track Chart. B. Executive Officer's Report. C. Report of Commander ENTERPRISE Air Group, VT-3, VB-6, VF-6 and VS-5.

ACTION REPORT - 7-8 August 1942

.... The F4F-4, considering equality of pilots, is no match for the Japanese Zero fighter in a dog fight, plane for plane, due to the superiority of the Zero in climb, speed, maneuverability, and endurance. However, in its ruggedness, ability to "take it", and fire power the F4F-4 is superior to the Zeros. These factors of superiority, combined with an apparent superiority of our pilots in deflection shooting, give the F4F-4 a reasonable chance of attaining a successful outcome in an engagement in which there are several fighters involved on both sides. The principal weaknesses of the Zero are (1) inability to absorb hits, and (2) ineffective fire power. The modification of the design of either airplane toward that of the other probably would result in a fighter superior both to the F4F-4 and the Zero.

It is now believed that the best defense for F4F's against Zero attack is for each plane of the two plane element to turn away and then turn immediately toward each other and set up a continuous "scissors". Thus, when a Zero bears on one of the F4F's the other F4F is in position to fire on the Zero. A short accurate burst from the F4F is generally sufficient to knock down the Zero whereas the F4F can absorb almost unbelievable punishment from the Zero.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:33 AM
Zyzbot wrote:

- It is now believed that the best defense for F4F's
- against Zero attack is for each plane of the two
- plane element to turn away and then turn immediately
- toward each other and set up a continuous
- "scissors". Thus, when a Zero bears on one of the
- F4F's the other F4F is in position to fire on the
- Zero. A short accurate burst from the F4F is
- generally sufficient to knock down the Zero whereas
- the F4F can absorb almost unbelievable punishment
- from the Zero.


The Thatch Weave.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:40 AM
The nice thing about the US carrier based fighters, F4F, F6F, F4U, and F8F, is that there isn't a bad one in the lot.

The Wildcat flew and held the line in the two most pivotal carrier actions early in the war at Midway and Coral Sea. The Hellcat and the Corsair both cleared the Slot in the Marianas and helped pummel the cream of the IJN into oblivion. The Bearcat, as early as 1944, was identified as a more than worthy successor to the Hellcat having better top speed in order to chase kamikazes, but was a victim of timing.

The Hellcat and the Corsair offered different strengths. BTW, both had the Double Wasp radial, as did the Bearcat. The Hellcat was the fleet interceptor, the Corsair, due to carrier qual issues with forward vision and bouncy landing gear, was primarily a Marine fighter early until the Royal Navy sorted out the Corsair's carrier landing issues. The Hellcat offered better initial rate of climb than the Corsair, the latter plane offered a ground attack capability the Hellcat did not--dive bombing--the Hellcat could carry bombs, but it had worse compressability characteristics than the Corsair, again making the latter better suited to CAS missions for the Marines.

At no point was the Corsair going to supplant the Hellcat in the fleet interceptor role, as the Hellcat was more than adequate to the task, creating far more American aces than the Corsair did. The Hellcat was slated for replacement in its role by the Bearcat, which was essentially a stripped down and airframe refined Hellcat (lighter generally and with only 4 .50 cal Brownings, eventually 4 20mm cannons.) with a visibility enhancement in the bubble canopy. The F8F arrived too late to see action and by Korea had been front-line replaced by the Grumman Panther. The Corsair really only carried on because of its good dual role capability.

As fighters, the Corsair offered better top end and range than the Hellcat, the Cat offered better agility and better initial climb from sea level. Both were superbly tough and reliable BnZ fighters, and both had better top speed and terminal dive speeds than any Japanese aircraft, so the top end differences in speed between the two is almost immaterial in use against Japanese aircraft. The Hellcat could dogfight better than the Corsair if it had to TnB, Corsair pilots who TnB'd tended to get splashed more than Hellcat drivers. The Hellcat was somewhat more reliable, easier to service, and better suited to deck ops, the Corsair had better overall visibility, ceiling, speed, and flying range.

The Hellcat and Corsair were really more complimentary than rivals. Each had its role, rather like the F-14 and F-18 do in today's carrier roles, with the F-18 being more a Marine suitable plane that can fight or bomb whereas the Tomcat is the true Naval air superiority craft.

I can't pick a winner as I like them all.



Message Edited on 10/24/0305:57PM by NavyFlyer

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:44 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- That's an excellent book and Saburo tells
- enthralling stories. Great post.
-
-
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
<
This link has another description of that same fight...more so from Lt Southerland's perspective

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/history/tainan-ku.html

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 02:26 AM
dont you just love the japanese - not willing to surrender - would rather kill themselves ! - take their SWORD along in their airplanes as a tribute to their samurai tradition !

come on guys - do you know history ? - the japanese were isolated from the rest of the world until shortly after 1900 - when the americans sent their fleet to break the japanese isolated existance .... until then they ONLY did buisness with the Dutch .... and later with Portugal .. it was the americans who started the japanese industry ... they forced them to go "industrial" and paved the way for the japanese conquest ! LOL just like the americans funded the nazi war machine in the 30's ........ HEHEHEHE well it did not turn out just the way the americans expected ,,,,, ot did it ??????? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i'm drunk now so spare your flames to a reasonable level .... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


back to the topic - the greatest naval fighter of the war was the Corsair ....... cuz we never had a Carrier based FW190 ......... shredding the Corsair to bits with their 4 x 20mm uber-minengeschoss cannons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or do you really think a Corsair would have stood a chance against a high-performance fighter with the manouverability to counter a spitfire ????????

FLAME ON !!!!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:41 PM
F6F....

Er....sorry I'm late!


Best regards,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:04 PM
FW190 of course!

Simply a personal preference since no truly objective measures can be applied to the huge amount of variables involved in what means 'Greatest'.....

<img src=http://home.insightbb.com/%7Edspinnett/NonSpeed/SpeedToys.jpg </img>
http://hometown.aol.com/spinnetti/

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:55 PM
>>>back to the topic - the greatest naval fighter of the war was the Corsair ....... cuz we never had a Carrier based FW190 ......... shredding the Corsair to bits with their 4 x 20mm uber-minengeschoss cannons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif or do you really think a Corsair would have stood a chance against a high-performance fighter with the manouverability to counter a spitfire ????????<<<


The F4U-4 Corsair would have been more than a match for the Butcher Bird had the -4 seen combat in the ETO.

---
<font color=white font size="3" face="arial"Col. "Fury" CO
<font size="3"><font face="bd hanover">352nd Fighter Group </font> [VR]
<font face="bd hanover">328th, 486th, 487th Fighter Squadrons</font>
<font><font color="#330099"><font size="5"><font face="brush script mt">"Second To None!"</font>

<font>[b]<font size="2" font color=black>[(HL)_352FG; (UBI) USAAF_352FG]: The<font><font color=#330099 face="brush script mt"font size="5">"First"</font><font color=black font size="2"> 352FG in IL-2FB</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 08:31 AM
S! Chimp---Great Topic

Yes the F4F was THAT outclassed by the Zero. The Zero was the abosolute King of slow speed manuevering. That meant the Zero could :


Outclimb
Out-turn
Out-loop
A little faster than the F4F Wildcat
Much greater range

Saburo--"He kept flying loops, trying to narrow the distance of each arc. Everytime he went up and around I cut inside his arc and lessened the distance between our two planes. The Zero could outfly any fighter in the world in this kind of manuver."


The strengths of the Wildcat were it's ruggedness, self-sealing fuel tanks, armor, radial engine and general construction.

The favorite attack run by Wildcat pilots was the overhead pass or a front quarters attack from a scissors move--"Thatch Weave".

Combat Report : "The F4F-4, considering equality of pilots, is no match for the Japanese Zero fighter in a dog fight, plane for plane, due to the superiority of the Zero in climb, speed, maneuverability, and endurance. However, in its ruggedness, ability to "take it", and fire power the F4F-4 is superior to the Zeros. These factors of superiority, combined with an apparent superiority of our pilots in deflection shooting, give the F4F-4 a reasonable chance of attaining a successful outcome in an engagement in which there are several fighters involved on both sides. The principal weaknesses of the Zero are (1) inability to absorb hits, and (2) ineffective fire power. The modification of the design of either airplane toward that of the other probably would result in a fighter superior both to the F4F-4 and the Zero."

That's why slashing attacks of 300mph and faster were adopted by Bong & McGuire (P38 Jocks) and USMC Fighter Pilots flying Corsairs in the Slot---Speed is Life !
__________________


For those who said the Hellcat was the greatest, sorry the Navy has already spoken on the subject when it Declared the Corsair the Winner in a fly off between the two.

The Navy, in the latter part of the war replaced Hellcat Squadrons as fast as it could with Corsairs. The Corsair outclassed the Hellcat accross the board.

For the 190 fans; captured 190's were flown against several allied planes. All varients of the Corsair would have been very competative with the 190 line of planes. The final varient- the F4U-4 Corsair would have been superior in many areas to the 190-D9. The F4U-4 model would have been more than a match for the Dora, plus it could take off and land from a Carrier.

What other piston plane can claim a Mig-15 jet kill in air to air combat in Korea ?



Overall Champion--CORSAIR !





Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 08:42 AM
My vote: F4U Corsair. Just an all around incredible plane, and she had the power of a jetliner, by golly.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 10:05 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Nope..El Aurens got it coreect..both share the
- Double Wasp Engine..which is why the jug is the
- bastard child of the USAAF...it has a navy engine.


That's MR. Bastard Child


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



I would have said the Jug, but it's not a navy fighter /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
My actual vote is the F4U.

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:32 AM
My humble opinion...

The Naval fighters that had the greatest impact in WW2 (note greatest impact, not greatest performance etc). has to be either the A6M Zero-sen or the F6F Hellcat.

Why ?

The A6M was the first ever naval fighter to totally outperform its land based counterpart. In the first two years off WW2 it mowed down everything in it's path, from Buffaloes to spits to hurries to wildcats to carelessly flown heavy bombers. With the Zero, the IJN swept all opposition and captured tens of thousands of square miles of ocean. Read history books and you'll know just how terrified Navy, Army and USMC pilots were at the thought of tangling with a zero. The safest way to counter zeroes is to fly in teams and fly at top speed all the time. One on one, a pilot would have to be at the top of his game to get a zero kill...oh and please don't get in a low speed aerobatic dogfight with one.

F6F, greatest why ? Specifically built to counter the zero, it was an easy, forgiving plane to learn (much less complex and a lot safer than the otherwise superior F4U). It was reasonably quick, had lots of power and more importantly easy to build. In six months of deployment, there were literally thousands of these big beefy fighters in the Pacific, the north Atlantic and the Med, swarming around looking for things to shoot up. Later on, it proved to be an excellent fighter-bomber, tough as nails and good payload. In the end, Hellcats accounted for more than 70% of the USN's kills. It did in 43-45 what the Zero did in 40-42.

So these two get my vote.

PS Naval fighters with the greatest unrealized POTENTIAL ? My vote goes to the Kawanishi N1K1 Shiden-Kai "(George). One allied test pilot described a captured Shidenkai to have had powerfull weapons (twin 20s and twin 0.50s), reasonable protection (inc. for the first time in IJN history, chicken plates and self sealing tanks) and a auto-combat flaps system that endowed it with "mystical powers of manouvre". Unfortunately, it never really replaced the zero as was intended and in the later years of WW2, poor materials and quality control rendered these stae-of-the-art fighters mostly unserviceable... Yeah uptime baby.

So there..

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 12:03 PM
The Japanese Zero! It cleared the skies in 41-42. It was not the aircraft you wanted to see in your rearview mirror while flying the Brewster F2A-1 or B-339D Buffalo.