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View Full Version : Is Shaman Op? (Poll)



Iucoa
11-16-2017, 08:34 PM
Yes, She's OP
No, She's not OP

Knight_Raime
11-16-2017, 08:40 PM
I voted no. To me over powered means non counterable, super easy to abuse, high damaging stuff.
Having both played as her and against her a decent bit now I am starting to see what counters her and what flaws she has.

She is overtuned. Which specifically refers to her numbers. the amount of damage she can potentially do, the amount of health/regen bite gives, and her recovery are all things that can be considered tilted a bit too far on the strong side. I personally think to balance her out the devs should look at 2 of these. maybe all 3. She's got a really good kit. She doesn't need to have the best damage and fastest recovery as well.

CandleInTheDark
11-16-2017, 08:51 PM
Not voting because for me I would like to see how she is once the tracking has been changed next patch and if the devs intended the pounce to bypass revenge and, according to someone on this forum, hidden stance. In terms of the latter, does anyone know if demon's embrace negate hidden stance? I can see that for both of them simply because they are not jabbing a weapon, they are throwing themselves bodily at her with their whole body, still would be nice to know if intended.

As Raime said,she is perhaps a bit overtuned but one thing I will say is she has to be aggressive. She has a dodge side attack but it neither goes into a chain like berserker nor has extra damage like peacekeeper with the bleed so at best you are whittling away and speaking of bleeds, you either need to finish a chain,all of which end with a heavy, cancel a zone or heavy with a very short range attack or score a deflect which comes with it the risk of eating an attack (not complaining about any of this before someone says I am being salty over it, I think that is a good call, I don't want her getting bleed as easily as Peacekeeper gets it), so while the pounce may need toning down and maybe the bleed damage, the means of getting bleed are fairly balanced. The forward/back dodge attack can come with an attack from any direction but again chains into nothing and is dodgeable/parryable as is the unblockable chain finish form the left.

ShonM93
11-16-2017, 08:56 PM
Voted OP because: she has way too many tools compared to original chars. Her pounce is overtuned, to have both a second chance to hit and a no-recovery feint on it is makes this move basicly unpunishable, not to mention that is fast as hell and has way too good tracking on it.

Wes8504
11-16-2017, 09:10 PM
I agree with Knight_Raime in regards to not OP, just overtuned. Her move set and combos are well put together, but I'm not really feeling weak in the grey gear like I did with Shinobi and Highlander when they were first released. I've downed people from 100% with the leaping attack > unblockable heavy from left > apply bleed > GB > Throw > Neckbite while still in greys and no def pen. Granted, that's plenty they can counter, but I feel that should at most probably just take 50% especially in grey gear. If they don't change her and I get to 180 GS, should be interesting.

Justicator
11-16-2017, 09:21 PM
Voted Yes for the same reasons Knight_Raime said no lol. Her numbers are too high and she has a way better kit that all of the heroes so far, especially the older ones. I'm not saying she would be hard to balance; remove her ability to feint her pounce, increase its recovery, remove her ability to soft feint her attacks in any direction, especially with that speed she has, i can only imagine how the console players must feel. Reworke the numbers. All of this can be done in a week tops, but guess what we will hear from UBI; collecting data, centurion all over again... IMHO, You can't release a hero like that while the older cast hasn't received its (obviously) needed reworks. If you do, you just send a message that you mostly care about season passes and not balance or your older players at all...

Netcode_err_404
11-16-2017, 09:36 PM
I voted no, because op charavters don't exist, especially centurions and shamans. All is perfectly fine and thats why fh is top streamed game on twitch.

PS: I live on mars

Knight_Raime
11-16-2017, 09:41 PM
Voted Yes for the same reasons Knight_Raime said no lol. Her numbers are too high and she has a way better kit that all of the heroes so far, especially the older ones. I'm not saying she would be hard to balance; remove her ability to feint her pounce, increase its recovery, remove her ability to soft feint her attacks in any direction, especially with that speed she has, i can only imagine how the console players must feel. Reworke the numbers. All of this can be done in a week tops, but guess what we will hear from UBI; collecting data, centurion all over again... IMHO, You can't release a hero like that while the older cast hasn't received its (obviously) needed reworks. If you do, you just send a message that you mostly care about season passes and not balance or your older players at all...

If shaman had easier access to bleed or actual combo potential with her throws/dodges I could see removing her strong feint game with pounce and toning down her feint game with all direction soft feints. But bleed is difficult to do. And her leaping/dashing attacks don't combo into anything. I play on console and i'm already fighting/blocking bleed attempts. And playing as shaman i've been shut down by passive assassins that wait for me to pounce to either dodge and GB or dodge attack. 1 such person was smart enough to hit me with 500ms lights to stop my pounce period.

I'm all for them increasing it's recovery though. It needs a better tell on when you're swapping between it and wildcats rage. Potentially they could also nerf the range in which you can cancel it. As of right now you can both hard cancel and soft cancel pounce/bit up to halfway through the animation. I think that might be acceptable for switching from pounce to rage or vise versa. But not for hard canceling.

CandleInTheDark
11-16-2017, 09:52 PM
Voted Yes for the same reasons Knight_Raime said no lol. Her numbers are too high and she has a way better kit that all of the heroes so far, especially the older ones. I'm not saying she would be hard to balance; remove her ability to feint her pounce, increase its recovery, remove her ability to soft feint her attacks in any direction, especially with that speed she has, i can only imagine how the console players must feel. Reworke the numbers. All of this can be done in a week tops, but guess what we will hear from UBI; collecting data, centurion all over again... IMHO, You can't release a hero like that while the older cast hasn't received its (obviously) needed reworks. If you do, you just send a message that you mostly care about season passes and not balance or your older players at all...

I would agree with increasing recovery and with reducing the range of her charging attacks, the dodge heavy forward/back has range to it as does the pounce, I had a character escape roll away from me and the follow up pounce just nailed him which felt dirty given that was the only one in about eight rounds I got but I disagree with the feint game and the soft feint multi direction being changed.

Shaman is a character that forces aggression and has to be aggressive in turn. In terms of the soft feint, it is actually harder to hit than the peacekeeper's and that only comes from the direction of the heavy it cancelled, this is because of the short range, you have to judge very carefully what you do and if the opponent is being aggressive it is difficult to hit even when you are in range. The feint game plays into the fact that the opponent is expecting the charge as soon as they bleed, it is a way of forcing a reaction, if you can't adjust the timing or not go for it at all then it is an easy heavy or dodge (though again the range of the follow up could do with changing). Aggression shuts down a lot of her offence, the hardest duel I have had to date has been against a berserker because he was doing what berserkers do, none stop harassment. Again,not that I am complaining about any of this, the fact that bleeds are difficult to get and the pounce can be read and dealt with is what, when the tracking and distance is sorted, will keep that balanced but the tools she has been given is the boost she gets for that.

I also agree that the OG need reworks and that her kit is the benchmark they should be aiming for, the devs are working on those, first batch will be the conqueror, berserker and kensei so we will have to see what they come up with once those drop.

Morpheus256
11-16-2017, 09:56 PM
I voted no. Her UBs get a lot of hate because people don't know the dodge/parry timings yet but that will change in the next few weeks.

Her pounce feint is redundant, they might as well remove it.

Keldow89
11-16-2017, 10:43 PM
So i played the hell out of Glad tonight and.. i was really enjoying myself even the fights i was loosing i was having good battles.. one elimination i killed all 4 of the enemies and got called a hacker.. and it made me think.. hmm maybe its just all about the skillage.. as one of those was a Shaman.. then the whole team just ended up ganking me which is fair enough its part of the game. then i went to duels .. and well one massive problem is this... MATCH MAKER DOESNT WORK! got ranked up with guys 15 to 20 times my rank which never helps. I then spent 3 hours with a lvl 3 bot shaman Training then went online again and omg.. was an awful time again! Shes OP and annoying because all the other guys have a proper character design ... ish lol . I said to my mate when he asked me what he thought the last viking would be and i said "i Bet you UBI has no bloody clue what to do.. they will just make up some random guy with tons of moves like the cent had but worse" and i was right ... the poor warden now is very easily the most boring character in the game now in terms of his move list and the fancy animations. Conq is limited by his play style .. lawbringer is pretty stale too... its all about give these new guys more and more and more.. You can spend all day learning from the AIs patterns with her but it wont save you 9 times out of 10 and human players well .. more so..

I mention the warden again cus his move list is pretty basic but you could say the same for all the older characters. i mean does he (the warden) get a lunge attack? no you cant call the shoulder bash a lunge it takes a sucessful hit with it to allow you to follow up with a sword strike. does he get any crazy blood rage leap attack that tracks no.. cent gets his kick which used to track .. does warden get a follow up light side attacks oohh well yes he does.. so ooookay thats one thing he matches her on... oh wait what the hell.. ohh thats right she has everyones powers all in one.. then can out run like.. most if not all.. and can dodge like the worst of assassin characters.. daaam she is hella OP

Keldow89
11-16-2017, 10:45 PM
and her Stun recovery time is super duper ;)

Herbstlicht
11-16-2017, 11:16 PM
More OP then any hero ever before her.
When it comes to moveset and viability though, it would be sad to see it nerfed (like feintabilty etc.). It may be ultra strong, but as other said somewhere: she should be what balance and especially versatility should aim at for all heros.

Nevertheless, as long as the rest of the cast is not up to her level - or like 50 levels below her - she will reign surpreme.

David_gorda
11-16-2017, 11:58 PM
She is like 10 Times more op then Old centurion, superfast shugoki hug with no drawback, fast lights unblockables all ********, now its which team has lost skills that wins, only which team has most shamans. Superbroken Class. I am bot surprised since ubisoft showen their iincompetence time after tine when balanced characters but this is a joke. Ofc they make shaman Broken OP to Sell more season pass but this is just lol.....

subdude1974
11-17-2017, 12:24 AM
Not even debatable. The most OP character ever created. Insanely OP. You may as well just given her a mini gun as her weapon.

Justicator
11-17-2017, 02:04 AM
I rly don't understand people defending the shaman, saying that she is ok. I've read the comments of knight_raime and the like... Srsy guys, you think she has a hard time to put a bleed on you? What the actual f...??? She can feint into any direction, and the feint is super-ultra-mega fast!! You can react to that? You can react to her ability to pounce all day long when you are bleeding? And then she forces you to dodge, cancels her pounce and gets a gb... oh and let's not start on the gb punish or her throw distance? I can see that you think that her design is a step in the right direction, and I could agree with that; if it were not for the fact that all the season 1 heroes ARE MILES BEHIND HER! Nerf her into the level of the rest of the heroes and once you buff and rework the old cast to her current level, buff her back. Isn't fairness something that is supposed to be pursued when balancing a game??? She has everything! Seriously, that's what you call balanced and fair?

SenBotsu893
11-17-2017, 02:06 AM
lol rethorical poll.

people saying she isnt op are the same that said centurion was fine at season 2 start. biased to the bitter end

Netcode_err_404
11-17-2017, 02:11 AM
lol rethorical poll.

people saying she isnt op are the same that said centurion was fine at season 2 start. biased to the bitter end

Exactly, like knight lame, kweassa and a couple of more, that no longer play the game.

Netcode_err_404
11-17-2017, 02:12 AM
I rly don't understand people defending the shaman, saying that she is ok. I've read the comments of knight_raime and the like... Srsy guys, you think she has a hard time to put a bleed on you? What the actual f...??? She can feint into any direction, and the feint is super-ultra-mega fast!! You can react to that? You can react to her ability to pounce all day long when you are bleeding? And then she forces you to dodge, cancels her pounce and gets a gb... oh and let's not start on the gb punish or her throw distance? I can see that you think that her design is a step in the right direction, and I could agree with that; if it were not for the fact that all the season 1 heroes ARE MILES BEHIND HER! Nerf her into the level of the rest of the heroes and once you buff and rework the old cast to her current level, buff her back. Isn't fairness something that is supposed to be pursued when balancing a game??? She has everything! Seriously, that's what you call balanced and fair?

Raime self admitted that he is bad at the game, but judging from his comments he reliably parry pk zones, avoid glad's zone, and parry shaman's soft feint, like WTF XD try to imagine if he was be good at this game xD

Vakris_One
11-17-2017, 02:53 AM
Not OP seeing as how she is not unbeatable. Most of the roster have to work harder to beat her but that's not so much a problem with her than it is with other characters not being up to spec. She is a representation of how most of the other heroes should be reworked, i.e. they should have as much usability as her in their respective roles.

She does however need dialing back as Knight Raime has said, she is currently over tuned. I haven't played her yet so I won't hazard guesses as to precise numbers than need to be tweaked. One thing that I do feel confident in suggesting is reducing her throw distance, removing wall splat on predator's pounce and reducing the amount of stamina she regains from a neck bite - I'm not qualified to suggest by how much but it shouldn't not be a full stamina recovery.

Baturai
11-17-2017, 03:08 AM
are you serious? Op As F...lying Daggers

UbiJurassic
11-17-2017, 03:34 AM
We'll certainly keep our eye on this thread as we look to gather feedback on the new heroes. We understand that many members of the community have concerns regarding the Shaman and providing constructive feedback on the hero is the best way we can look to understand the issues and highlight them to the team.

Knight_Raime
11-17-2017, 07:18 AM
I rly don't understand people defending the shaman, saying that she is ok. I've read the comments of knight_raime and the like... Srsy guys, you think she has a hard time to put a bleed on you? What the actual f...??? She can feint into any direction, and the feint is super-ultra-mega fast!! You can react to that? You can react to her ability to pounce all day long when you are bleeding? And then she forces you to dodge, cancels her pounce and gets a gb... oh and let's not start on the gb punish or her throw distance? I can see that you think that her design is a step in the right direction, and I could agree with that; if it were not for the fact that all the season 1 heroes ARE MILES BEHIND HER! Nerf her into the level of the rest of the heroes and once you buff and rework the old cast to her current level, buff her back. Isn't fairness something that is supposed to be pursued when balancing a game??? She has everything! Seriously, that's what you call balanced and fair?

Her feinting into bleed from a raw heavy isn't difficult to react to. If you're confident in reflexes you can absolutely switch to block it. Both side bleed attacks are 500ms. If you've been able to react to (block or parry) 500ms lights in the past this shouldn't be difficult. The only difficult one is the top bleed attack which is 400ms. But you can easily remedy this by keeping your guard rested in top and react to everything else. Similar to how you deal with raiders zone mix up. Also her zone cancel into bleed wether it hits you or you block it you can always swap your guard to block the bleed.

Some heros can even attack her out of the soft feint into bleed if you know it's coming. the only consistent way she's going to apply bleed other than fighting someone who literally loses their mind is if you get good at deflecting. every other method she can apply bleed with is blockable. When we say it's hard it's because we are comparing her bleed capability compared to PK. Where deflect, dodge attacks, and GB all guarantee a bleed stab. So it's less that it's impossible to do and more so that she has to work harder to apply bleed compared to PK.

If she's close enough to cancel her pounce/bite into a GB I have enough time to land a 500ms-600ms light. You don't have to worry about the guessing game with her feinting pounce up close. Where her pounce feint mix up game is strong is when she's got range on you. At that point she can bait you into a whiff and punish. But if you're a hero who has a lunge/dodge attack or one of the few that actually has range like bushi you can actually deal with those as well.

You're misunderstanding. Just because me and a few others do not have pitchforks out demanding for action right stat now doesn't mean we think she's fine. Or that she doesn't need nerfing. I have already stated more than once that I do think she needs some nerfs. Nerfing her only to rebuff her later is just redundant. They're already in the process of buffing the original cast. If you can't or don't want to wait that long then take a break. I'd rather hone my knowledge on the game and learn how to counter more consistently. I'm going to do a write up either tonight or tomorrow on what I think should be done with both heros to improve them. Which does include nerfing Shaman.

RoosterIlluzion
11-17-2017, 07:24 AM
I voted no. To me over powered means non counterable, super easy to abuse, high damaging stuff.
Having both played as her and against her a decent bit now I am starting to see what counters her and what flaws she has.

She is overtuned. Which specifically refers to her numbers. the amount of damage she can potentially do, the amount of health/regen bite gives, and her recovery are all things that can be considered tilted a bit too far on the strong side. I personally think to balance her out the devs should look at 2 of these. maybe all 3. She's got a really good kit. She doesn't need to have the best damage and fastest recovery as well.

The things you stated make her op. Anything that gives any character an obvious advantage over others is op. Op means just what it stands for... over powered, even if it's in one or two things. It doesn't mean god mode, unbeatable.

CoyoteXStarrk
11-17-2017, 07:37 AM
Shaman is OP.

There is no argument to be made against that. If don't think she is OP you are either trolling or just don't want your new favorite character nerfed.

solho
11-17-2017, 08:07 AM
Its not OP, it only has a moveset light years away from the others class.. the fault is of the other class who dont improve their moveset and stay the past.. of course how are you going to compare my magnificent shaman with other class..




people need neurons and ubisoft need to fix this seasonal disaster. I predict the moveset of the next class, press the click to kill in an instant. since this game is going to a way to play without skill.

Knight_Raime
11-17-2017, 09:04 AM
The things you stated make her op. Anything that gives any character an obvious advantage over others is op. Op means just what it stands for... over powered, even if it's in one or two things. It doesn't mean god mode, unbeatable.

Okay let me set this better. The discussion is an opinion. OP asked for an opinion. There is no factual right or wrong answer here.
Second. What I consider over powered isn't the same as what others may consider to be over powered. I realize that that is entirely on me.
But my post still stands. What I consider to be overpowered is not what she is. You can disagree with me.


Shaman is OP.

There is no argument to be made against that. If don't think she is OP you are either trolling or just don't want your new favorite character nerfed.

Sad. Seeing this reply is the final straw for me. You're not the same person anymore. You used to actually make decent arguments. Now you just post like every other frustrated person here. So i'm going to mute you. Hopefully you'll find fun with this game again.

PDXGorechild
11-17-2017, 09:45 AM
Voted yes mostly because she's everything I want my main to be and i'm bitter about it. She's a rabid Berserker on steroids. Similar style, weapons, even looks fairly similar just even more savage.

Multi-directional chain combo's that can be soft feinted, dodging chops, chain starters, dodge cancels and high damage. Great, Berserker has all that.

But she also has significant bleed damage, three unblockables, a grab move that hard stuns people and she can cancel just about anything, including guard breaks.

Tell me why the f*ck would you bother playing Berserker with this lunatic on the roster? Just gotta wait a few days until she unlocks and i'm ditching my rank 30 main until he gets a LONG OVERDUE rework.

Oupyz
11-17-2017, 10:21 AM
how can someone defend her opness its beyond me , just compare Shaman to the other classes without going into technical point of view , u will find that she is light years ahead of them

light years ahead of them ==== op in that sense

argument done .

now ubisoft my advice to you tone the **** out of her until you balance some of the original heroes to even have a chance vs that freak you call shaman

two easy fix for now

bleed shouldn't heal

her hp drops to shinobi level pre buff

and lets monitor the situation

ArchDukeInstinct
11-17-2017, 10:23 AM
Its not OP, it only has a moveset light years away from the others class.. the fault is of the other class who dont improve their moveset and stay the past.. of course how are you going to compare my magnificent shaman with other class..




people need neurons and ubisoft need to fix this seasonal disaster. I predict the moveset of the next class, press the click to kill in an instant. since this game is going to a way to play without skill.

This guy is on the money. As a Conqueror main, I would just like to apologize to the entire community for not growing a new moveset out of thin air mid-game. I just don't have the neurons to pull it off, I'm a failure.


Okay let me set this better. The discussion is an opinion. OP asked for an opinion. There is no factual right or wrong answer here.
Second. What I consider over powered isn't the same as what others may consider to be over powered. I realize that that is entirely on me.
But my post still stands. What I consider to be overpowered is not what she is. You can disagree with me.

An opinion? They didn't ask if you liked the color yellow, they asked if shaman is OP. It can be somewhat fuzzy but it is objective, is this class imbalanced when compared to the rest of the classes in the game? You don't get to redefine what overpowered means to such an extent and instead use "overtuned" as if it changed the fact that you need to play a lot better than your opponent to even have a chance to win. What's even the point of calling it overtuned instead, it's admitting that things need to be toned down either way.

Furthermore I will add that it's absolutely crazy that there's been classes needing big time buffs since season 1 and they just can't seem to spare the effort but they can give this class so many options that do so much damage so quickly.

CandleInTheDark
11-17-2017, 11:18 AM
Shaman is OP.

There is no argument to be made against that. If don't think she is OP you are either trolling or just don't want your new favorite character nerfed.

I've never said she doesn't need some things looking at like throw distance (only seen this morning how far she can kick someone forward, she shouldn't be a better ledger than the warlord), speed and tracking of predator's pounce and wildcat swiftness and maybe some damage numbers, and you've been around long enough to know that I call for reworks or nerfs on my own main. The point I have been making is people go on about her bleed kit and speaking as a peacekeeper main it is more difficult for her to get bleed,as it should be with the benefits she gets off of it.

I also believe that her kit as a whole, some numbers needing changing aside, should be the benchmark they should be aiming for in the reworks they say they are working on,which yes means currently she is ahead of the og but the devs have said reworks are coming and I am waiting to see how those go. Hers is a kit that she needs to be aggressive to use and forces the opponent to be aggressive to deal with and if that is the direction they are planning to go with the reworks and future characters, to me that is an exciting thing. It has always struck me as strange that the people who decry the defensive meta most bitterly are also the people that call any progress, whether in parry changes in the fight system or in new characters, bad.

Vakris_One
11-17-2017, 02:34 PM
Shaman is OP.

There is no argument to be made against that. If don't think she is OP you are either trolling or just don't want your new favorite character nerfed.
What you're really saying here is "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong." To which I respond, you're opinion is no more or less relevant than anyone elses. If you can't deal with other people not agreeing with you then that's entirely your problem.

Devils-_-legacy
11-17-2017, 04:19 PM
I'm guna say yes she's op if they fix her bleed damage and pounce issue she's still got one of the best kits in the game would of been better to release shaman as a benchmark after the og hero's have had reworks as it stands now all I can see on is one hero who has the best bits of every hero rolled up in one from what I've played she feels like a hybrid more then a assassin

CandleInTheDark
11-17-2017, 04:31 PM
I'm guna say yes she's op if they fix her bleed damage and pounce issue she's still got one of the best kits in the game would of been better to release shaman as a benchmark after the og hero's have had reworks as it stands now all I can see on is one hero who has the best bits of every hero rolled up in one from what I've played she feels like a hybrid more then a assassin

The issue was that they had to release her on schedule and I do think a lot of this is she has probably the best kit in terms of it is viable and things in it flow into each other well. This kit is what the reworks need to aim for because it rewards actually using it. That is why outside the obvious issues like tracking, speed and distance of some things and a couple damage numbers, rather than figure nerfs for her for the sake of nerfing her I would rather the devs got on with the reworks and rolled those out as quickly as possible, Then we have a roughly equal playing field with which to figure where some need to be stronger or less strong as opposed to some characters can force a reaction (Shaman, Centurion, Gladiator) and others were built with the mechanics that made the meta we are trying to leave behind because that is comparing apples and oranges.

Devils-_-legacy
11-17-2017, 05:14 PM
My problem is how long it will be till we get through all the rest of the reworks she's pushed all the og hero's far away from the point of balanced when they do her numbers properly then yes she will be. until then she cementing the tier list where she sits firmly on the top but ik they were keeping to a dead line and more people would be upset at not keeping the 2 hero's a season as promised. I'm glad they are coming up with fresh hero's but dam every new hero pushes the new heros kit miles away from the original roster and more issues they are being released with i just hope it we don't have to wait 1 1/2 seasons for the game to be balanced properly or the next batch of hero's are on equal footing not one more viable then the other. I'm a big fan of forhonor just baffled by season 4

CandleInTheDark
11-17-2017, 05:39 PM
My problem is how long it will be till we get through all the rest of the reworks she's pushed all the og hero's far away from the point of balanced when they do her numbers properly then yes she will be. until then she cementing the tier list where she sits firmly on the top but ik they were keeping to a dead line and more people would be upset at not keeping the 2 hero's a season as promised. I'm glad they are coming up with fresh hero's but dam every new hero pushes the new heros kit miles away from the original roster and more issues they are being released with i just hope it we don't have to wait 1 1/2 seasons for the game to be balanced properly or the next batch of hero's are on equal footing not one more viable then the other. I'm a big fan of forhonor just baffled by season 4

That I agree with, they need to push through the reworks as soon as possible now, I know parry changes are a thing they also want to push through but the criticism I definitely wouldn't argue with is that the og heroes, especially the lower tier ones, very much need to catch up.

Fairemont
11-17-2017, 06:39 PM
I've not had any trouble beating her yet, though perhaps I am playing against a bunch of baddies.

I typically play Nobushi and she comes at me hot and heavy, throwing attacks all over but all but the unblockable is capable of being blocked and/or hidden stanced. Most of her common attacks are particularly short range so Nobushi can keep her out a distance, but at the same time shaman has a few gap closers. Conveniently, Nobushi seems to be able to poke her out of all of them. Basically, just block her till she runs a little lower on stamina and then catch a safe parry and punish her.

Its worked for me.

Granted, she is very, very strong, primarily due to her extreme versatility. The ability to heal without the use of feats is an incredible ability and makes my Nobushi jelly since they just removed my heal and gave me a weaker heal. So, OP? In my opinion, she's maybe bordering OP. Very dangerous in multiple attacker situations, above-averagely dangerous in one-on-ones but by no means unbeatable if you keep a clear head and don't do anything too reckless.

So, I would vote top-tier strong but not powerful enough to be considered OP. To me, at least.

MafiaRider
11-17-2017, 06:55 PM
Voted yes, just played a match of dominion against a team of 3 shamans, all of them turtling against a slow shugoki LOL. Need I say more?

Devils-_-legacy
11-17-2017, 07:11 PM
That I agree with, they need to push through the reworks as soon as possible now, I know parry changes are a thing they also want to push through but the criticism I definitely wouldn't argue with is that the og heroes, especially the lower tier ones, very much need to catch up.

That's my main concern is the difference between the og and dlcs they can fix shaman with a few tweaks but if they don't make the others catch up soon the roster will continue with this divide of simple kit to eccentric. Don't get me wrong as a individual hero she's amazing design same as the ronin but the og hero's are one trick pony's or have a major flaws built into there kit. ik personally I love this game I've spent 500+ hours in the game pvp alone and im not hating on the devs. I'm just glad someone else can see the urgency of the re-works I may get hate from this but I'd rather see reworks done ASAP then the dedicated servers feels like the gap in viability is growing

Knight_Raime
11-18-2017, 02:06 AM
This guy is on the money. As a Conqueror main, I would just like to apologize to the entire community for not growing a new moveset out of thin air mid-game. I just don't have the neurons to pull it off, I'm a failure.



An opinion? They didn't ask if you liked the color yellow, they asked if shaman is OP. It can be somewhat fuzzy but it is objective, is this class imbalanced when compared to the rest of the classes in the game? You don't get to redefine what overpowered means to such an extent and instead use "overtuned" as if it changed the fact that you need to play a lot better than your opponent to even have a chance to win. What's even the point of calling it overtuned instead, it's admitting that things need to be toned down either way.

Furthermore I will add that it's absolutely crazy that there's been classes needing big time buffs since season 1 and they just can't seem to spare the effort but they can give this class so many options that do so much damage so quickly.

The question was asked if we found something was OP. That is an opinion. Also that is a false equivalence. Just because one hero is better designed compared to other classes doesn't instantly and objectively mean that new hero is overpowered. We are all painfully aware of how lacking and poorly designed the OG heros are. Furthermore we all recognize how the flawed mechanics that support this game have made issues for the game. So it would be more accurate to call Shaman something besides overpowered. Because while she is indeed powerful it's not her fault that base hero design is old and flawed. Also I didn't "redefine" overpowered. I stated what it means to me and i'm 100% aware that how I view things is not how everyone else views things.

I specifically called her overtuned because her base kit is fine. it's her numbers that need changing. Which from what i've read around here, both reddits, and youtube seem to agree with. But you're splitting hairs with me here. The OP wanted to know how people felt about Shaman and I gave my opinion. Sorry you don't agree with me. But you don't need to jump down my throat over wording.

ChrisTaben2017
11-18-2017, 03:34 AM
If you think she's not Op (anyone) it will be because you are used to using other Op characters. When you play as the original useless heroes like Warden, conq etc she is leagues above them.
Looks like the poll speaks for itself anyway.

We.the.North
11-18-2017, 06:32 AM
The OP wanted to know how people felt about Shaman

I play Shinobi

Shaman is overtunned. She has way too much versatility on her kit compared to the other heroes. (either reduce her kit and never touch it again, or reduce her kit and enlarge it once all the other characters are on par). Her range, damage numbers and tracking are also far superior.

Aramusha, against my not so great computer and reflex guard, will 100% - 0% stunlock me in his infinite chain. I try to block top, I try to deflect the top attack, nothing works on my slow computer. It's a complete stunlock.

Those 2 heroes set the game 100 steps backward in season 4. It's at the moment SO BAD I decided to just quit and I'll be back on season 5 when we get dedicated servers. Hopefully by then, there will be another big balance patch.

Right now, game has gone to ****. I've never seen worst game designers in my life, considering season 1 overpowered revenge builds, season 2 game balance fiasco with Centurions in Dominion. Thank god we had season 3 which was quite fun.

Knight_Raime
11-18-2017, 08:25 AM
I play Shinobi

Shaman is overtunned. She has way too much versatility on her kit compared to the other heroes. (either reduce her kit and never touch it again, or reduce her kit and enlarge it once all the other characters are on par). Her range, damage numbers and tracking are also far superior.

Aramusha, against my not so great computer and reflex guard, will 100% - 0% stunlock me in his infinite chain. I try to block top, I try to deflect the top attack, nothing works on my slow computer. It's a complete stunlock.

Those 2 heroes set the game 100 steps backward in season 4. It's at the moment SO BAD I decided to just quit and I'll be back on season 5 when we get dedicated servers. Hopefully by then, there will be another big balance patch.

Right now, game has gone to ****. I've never seen worst game designers in my life, considering season 1 overpowered revenge builds, season 2 game balance fiasco with Centurions in Dominion. Thank god we had season 3 which was quite fun.

I have been saying from the beginning that shaman is over tuned. Just not overpowered. In my own thread I made suggestions on how to nerf her but keep her design and kit identity.
I can't help you with that if it's your computer. both console platforms have stepped up and shown both with standard guard and reflex guard you can absolutely escape his infinite even if you took a confirmed hit or 2.

CoyoteXStarrk
11-18-2017, 09:58 AM
Sad. Seeing this reply is the final straw for me. You're not the same person anymore. You used to actually make decent arguments. Now you just post like every other frustrated person here. So i'm going to mute you. Hopefully you'll find fun with this game again.

Sorry you feel that way, but if there was a debate to be had or an argument to be heard then I would be first in line to hear it.


There isn't though.


Shaman is 100% broken in comparison to ANY other character in the game. That is a FACT. Not an opinion.



- She is more versatile than any other hero


- She has more options than any other hero


- She has more utility than any other hero


- Her damage is ridiculous compared to her speed


- She has an unblockable Shugoki tackle that is 50 times faster and 100 times more accurate that HEALS HER AS WELL




I could go on but it would be redundant at this point. She IS OP. There is no debate to be had here.

Oupyz
11-18-2017, 11:28 AM
Both Shaman And Aramusha are a disaster

Aramusha is very annoying to play against with assassins


and with little lag Aramusha Reign Supreme

on the other hand Shaman have the strenght of all heroes minus their weakness


Disaster Season 4 I Never Bashed the game before , but this is unacceptable Ubisoft

the 21% that voted no are nothing but low skill players who are abusing a very very op Character......

Morpheus256
11-18-2017, 12:37 PM
I'd like to know how many of those who voted "OP" play on console. There's a huge difference between 30 and 60 fps that can change whether a hero is OP or not.

She has a deflect, dash attack, soft-feint on initial heavies, an UB attack, and an UB bash. That's basically her kit. Her UBs can be avoided so what's left is essentially a PK that can change her bleed cancel into another direction. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, her zone. Not as cancerous as PK's or Gladiator's so... meh.

Oupyz
11-18-2017, 01:36 PM
i play on pc 165fps and i voted op for abvious reason and everybody know she is pretty much all classes combined into one all their power minus their weakness , so i wish people stop to defend her and she must be hotfixed asap

Lyskir
11-18-2017, 02:17 PM
Sorry you feel that way, but if there was a debate to be had or an argument to be heard then I would be first in line to hear it.


There isn't though.


Shaman is 100% broken in comparison to ANY other character in the game. That is a FACT. Not an opinion.



- She is more versatile than any other hero


- She has more options than any other hero


- She has more utility than any other hero


- Her damage is ridiculous compared to her speed


- She has an unblockable Shugoki tackle that is 50 times faster and 100 times more accurate that HEALS HER AS WELL




I could go on but it would be redundant at this point. She IS OP. There is no debate to be had here.

agree
I don't think anything more needs to be said

i voted Yes

Herbstlicht
11-18-2017, 02:56 PM
Sorry you feel that way, but if there was a debate to be had or an argument to be heard then I would be first in line to hear it.


There isn't though.


Shaman is 100% broken in comparison to ANY other character in the game. That is a FACT. Not an opinion.


- She is more versatile than any other hero


- She has more options than any other hero


- She has more utility than any other hero


- Her damage is ridiculous compared to her speed


- She has an unblockable Shugoki tackle that is 50 times faster and 100 times more accurate that HEALS HER AS WELL




I could go on but it would be redundant at this point. She IS OP. There is no debate to be had here.

Exactly this.

ChrisTaben2017
11-18-2017, 03:23 PM
Sorry you feel that way, but if there was a debate to be had or an argument to be heard then I would be first in line to hear it.


There isn't though.


Shaman is 100% broken in comparison to ANY other character in the game. That is a FACT. Not an opinion.



- She is more versatile than any other hero


- She has more options than any other hero


- She has more utility than any other hero


- Her damage is ridiculous compared to her speed


- She has an unblockable Shugoki tackle that is 50 times faster and 100 times more accurate that HEALS HER AS WELL




I could go on but it would be redundant at this point. She IS OP. There is no debate to be had here.




Could not agree more, Well done

SammyCannon
11-18-2017, 07:24 PM
I uses to play mostly 1v1 tournament and refuse to play now because of shaman.
Will they do anything about this ridicoulus character, are there any official anouncement?
Wtf was the thought process of putting this into the game? Developers tired of loosing?

The_B0G_
11-18-2017, 08:22 PM
I personally think it's too early to tell, wait until they start getting to top tier gear and people really figure out her mixups. Then we'll see how she is.

CandleInTheDark
11-18-2017, 08:48 PM
She is more versatile than any other hero


- She has more options than any other hero


- She has more utility than any other hero

These three points are where I think people are being a little reactionary and not thinking about what else we already know. Let me say this first, I agree that there are things wrong with her that the devs need to fix now, mostly to do with tracking, speed, distance and maybe a damage number or two. I also agree that she is far above most of the OG as they currently stand.

The key word there is currently. If I did not know that at least some of the OG were getting reworks and that in the first batch, at least two of them have needed them since release (I would say all three but some berserker seem to mains disagree), I would agree that Ubisoft screwed up massively, well beyond the fact that she has some numbers that need toning down.

As it is though we know those reworks are coming, so I am looking at this kit and wondering if the devs see this as a template towards what they want to do in the future, and that, if that is the case, is something to be excited about.

We have been asking the devs for ages to deal with this defensive meta and they are, from two directions, firstly the system changes but also in giving us characters that reward aggression and force a reaction. I never enjoyed duel, I do duel so that I can hold my own 1v1 when boosting a zone because I get sloppy but I never enjoyed it. I took the shaman into duel and you know what? I went against the turtliest characters, warlords and such,who from the first second came out and attacked, because they knew that blocking and parrying was only going to get them so far. I beat some of them, some of them beat me, even when I got ledged it did not feel cheap. That kind of experience would bring me back to 1v1 more.

So I look at this kit and what I am thinking is if this is where the devs are taking the reworks, when everyone has the same kind of kit, I think that duels and the 4v4modes are going to be better for it when everyone is on the same playing field and somewhat balanced. That is why my view is that the devs should fix some of the obvious flaws and then focus their attention on getting those reworks through.

Vakris_One
11-18-2017, 09:28 PM
I uses to play mostly 1v1 tournament and refuse to play now because of shaman.
Will they do anything about this ridicoulus character, are there any official anouncement?
Wtf was the thought process of putting this into the game? Developers tired of loosing?
You just now refuse to play 1v1 because of Shaman? That's strange considering that competitive 1v1s have been the sole domain of the cancerous turtle meta up until now. I can only assume you enjoy turtling.

Here's the thing I find silly. We finally get characters that promote attacking each other in 1v1s and people are loosing their minds. This forum is hilarious in its knee jerk hysteria. It has been ever since the betas where Orochi was the first ever character to be called OP. And then it just continued, the cries of OP just because characters have certain traits that they can play to. Here's a list of characters that have been called OP throughout For Honor's history:
- Warden
- Orochi
- Valkyrie
- Beserker
- Warlord
- Lawbringer
- Conqueror
- Nobushi
- Shugoki
- Peacekeeper
- Centurion
- Shinobi
- Gladiator

And now Shaman and Aramusha are both being called OP just a few days into their release. For someone who's been around since the very beginning of this game and its forum it never fails to surprise me how little work the loudest minority on here can be bothered to put in before shouting "OP!" to the highest heavens because they cannot insta-kill a certain character and are forced to read up on them and learn more about fighting them.

Of course some characters that have been called OP have genuinely needed to be tweaked and balanced but that usually was a result of people providing a detailed explanation of why they needed to be tweaked and offering up suggestions on how to balance the characters without destroying them. I see very few people here who are calling Shaman OP also offering up what they would reasonably tweak and adjust about her. It's mostly the same kind of rage posts I've been seeing since the Orochi was a new character. "It's OP. I cannot do anything against this character. What were the devs thinking! Delete this cancer!" These kinds of posts will achieve nothing productive until you can explain specifically what you would tweak about the character that would not also irreparably cripple them.

CandleInTheDark
11-18-2017, 09:37 PM
Of course some characters that have been called OP have genuinely needed to be tweaked and balanced but that usually was a result of people providing a detailed explanation of why they needed to be tweaked and offering up suggestions on how to balance the characters without destroying them. I see very few people here who are calling Shaman OP also offering up what they would reasonably tweak and adjust about her. It's mostly the same kind of rage posts I've been seeing since the Orochi was a new character. "It's OP. I cannot do anything against this character. What were the devs thinking! Delete this cancer!" These kinds of posts will achieve nothing productive until you can explain specifically what you would tweak about the character that would not also irreparably cripple them.

Eric very much confirmed this on reddit answering a couple posts. This came from another user

---
I agree that changes need to be made to Shaman, but technically pope isn't wrong. You've come to a consensus like a bunch of fish wives. Your complaints might have been better received if y'all played them before going up in arms. Should have let a week pass then give all these legitimate changes that need to be made, but of course this sub can't be asked to wait 4 ****in days. You had to know the patch wouldn't be changed between Saturday and the release. This sub needs to make ONE post, with the help of professional players(thank you for your input), upvote the **** out of it, and then tag mods and Pope. Instead we get 1500 I'm scared of shaman posts. Be a united, effective community, not a bunch of rambling infants. I'll probably get downvoted but really this sub needs to change the way it behaves.

I know I'm on the competitive sub, but I'm looping this with the regular sub as there's little difference now except memes.
---

This in response to that one from Eric

---
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted exactly, but in general what you’re suggesting is indeed a much more effective way to deliver big feedback. Not just because it gets MY attention (I already know the sky is falling bc of Shaman) but because that approach is far better in helping me make a case internally for a suggested balance change. Quantifying the volume of feedback is a tricky part of my job so what you suggest, while a lot more work, truly works better.
---

And this another from Eric another in that thread

---
First thing I️ did this morning was tell the Fight Team the community’s concerns about Shaman. But the number of panicked posts and tweets at me about it definitely are a bit over the top. I’m all for constructive feedback on balance and always pass it to the team, but the way this community gets itself whipped up into a frenzy sometimes is counterproductive to getting to the root of the feedback, ie what’s actionable and problematic about a character, in this case the Shaman.

The amount of focus our team puts into processing balance feedback is very large, as there’s so much of it so constantly. We have a number of mechanisms apart from Reddit where we gather that feedback as well, and we actually working on even more methods to lower the barrier to getting quality feedback and consensus before characters are released. I’m excited for that.

So I️ apologize for the salty nature of my comment, I️ try to keep things light here, but we are regularly putting a LOT of work into addressing balance feedback, which I️ hope people can see.
---

Applying that to this forum, we know the reps pass on feedback to the devs, the way to make progress is this is wrong, this is why this is wrong, this is how I would fix it.

SammyCannon
11-18-2017, 10:55 PM
I has a problem with characters before, yes.
Still hate shinobi and gladiator för example.

But Shaman please, its a complete different story, just compare lv3 bot play with all other heroes. Its ridicoulus and ruins the game like no others before and those for this is biased.
Like others have said, its not even a discussion.

And I am interested on the thought process regarding the implementation of this thing.

If you want to change "the meta" then you change the other characters first.

SammyCannon
11-18-2017, 11:03 PM
Edit; I do like the game and agree that the forums are to much at Times, like all personal attacks.
But its like Roman said, a sign of alot of passion and ironicly a good thing.

Vakris_One
11-19-2017, 12:52 AM
If it's "not even a discussion" then how is anything productive supposed to be achieved. What do you want to happen? You want them to delete Shaman from the game basically when there is "no discussion". All it ends up being is a bunch of people ranting and raving, just venting their rage like a bunch of infants throwing a tantrum. Quite frankly I wouldn't even give those inarticulate rage posts the time of day.

If you cannot explain the problem, why it is a problem and how it could be fixed then what do you expect the devs to do about it?

IMMA_MAILGEYMER
11-19-2017, 02:49 AM
New characters needed testing by some players too before release: You can't just throw them in there without expecting a ****storm. Did Shinobi and Centurion teached anything? like someone mentioned before they have a schedule, but for the love of god stop defending them, it's getting redundant, same old **** every season. Highlander and Aramusha don't even belong in this current meta of gb+heavy attack since THEY CAN'T DO IT, that poor weeb gets guard broken during his lights..how could the fight team let this pass? they didn't even bother to test him properly. When this happened to highlander i thought "oh he's just in line with the upcoming changes, that's nice" but NOPE, the only upcoming change i saw is called Shaman. Not that i'm against that, but ffs get it togheter.
Why should i even try to give some feedback? when the situation is like this for 9 mother****ing months, i'm not even gonna vote this useless poll when there are some characters around that are ACTUALLY BROKEN, characters so outdated that the only ones who remembers about their existence are players who use them.

Alustar.
11-19-2017, 03:50 AM
Shaman brought me back, not OP at all. In glad to finally see an assassin with the same attention to a creative tool kit on par with these new heroes. She is so wild and fun to play.
Not really sure how I feel about her health regen, getting the bleeds of aren't as easy as it seems why he limited range. I've all though, I like the additional survivability.
I think the trade off for her predators mercy is adequate. You miss that you are likely eating damage it a grab. Not to mention the health gains on it isn't that bad when you consider she doesn't have the health pool of a Shug.

Alustar.
11-19-2017, 03:59 AM
Also what's with people thinking they don't test their own product?

I just ask because this is getting out of hand. Just because you as a player are having difficulty doesn't mean that the game is broken or wasn't test. It likely means the changes currently affecting gameplay as whole are new and unexpected. Thus shaking you out of that lull of repetitive face rolling.
Don't forget, life exists outside of you.

I miss the days when forums were a place where players asked questions about strategies and tactics before they pissed and moaned about how the other players new toys are ruining their game.

Justicator
11-19-2017, 12:48 PM
Ahh, the good old, GIT GUD or get the hell out. Nice. Attacking everyone posting here that doesn't agree with you. Very Nice. But you know what? Shaman has nothing to do with GIT GUD. You know why she is OP. I'll repeat to you once again; it's not that her UNIQUE mechanics are impossible to deal with (and let's be honest, she doesn't have any, all of her 'unique' mechanics are borrowed from the rest of the cast and vastly improved upon), it's the fact that she has everything crammed into one hero, and it gives her way too much options when compared to everyone else, even the second new hero Ronin... Oh, silly me, I mean Aramusha [like that fooled anyone UBI]. Now, you might say, 'But that is what we want, every hero should look like that, it is going in the right direction, the old cast will get reworked, bla, bla BLA...' And I could agree with this if it not for the following:

1. Not everyone wants [and I believe the majority of players when looking at the forums and reddit] to have every hero play almost the same with a few differences in aesthetics and a couple of moves. People want heroes with different concepts that give them various STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES [yeah weaknesses, something that shaman sorely lacks].

2. While I might agree that, conceptually, she is great [which I do], and that her design is a step in the right direction, a few things are completely unfair with her design which DO MAKE HER OVERPOWERED when compared to the rest of the cast. She has good options to open turtles, she is unpredictable and aggressive. GREAT! But why the big HP pool [considering that she is an assassin with all these abilities], why the ultra-rewording and ATM ultra-safe grab-kissing-love bite BS? Why can she put a bleed on her deflect as well as her soft feints. So she is, not only ultra in-your-face aggressive, but if someone does possess blinding speed reflexes to block or, God forbid, even parry her abnormally fast attacks, she can simply turtle up and wait for a deflect. If you can not see that giving a single hero all the strengths with no weaknesses is a bad design choice, than please, do not reply, do not bother. I will not insult you, you have your opinion, but I will not waste my time on you.

3. You might, in the end say, that the original cast will eventually be reworked to her level. Now let's disregard the whole 2nd argument where I state why her design choice is actually bad. Let's say, GREAT, we all want the original cast to be more viable, with better options, more similar to the Shaman. YAY! This will fix everything! Guess what? This would be a somewhat viable argument [as knight_raime pushes it with some of the rest of you guys] if not for the fact that, let's be honest here guys, those changes will come in a half a year, or even a fully year, if we are lucky. So that means that we have to suffer this OP character for how long??? Thank you, but I had enough of This-is-Romna's-new-favourite-character-and-we-will-categorically-ignore-your-suggestions-and-feedback dev attitude.

4. Lastly, some of you might say; dude why so salty. You need to chill, take a break from the game, to which i have two simple things to say: I am salty because i love this game and its uniqueness. There is currently no other game like For Honor, and I very much enjoy it [especially when playing games with no shamans now]. Good changes are coming, and this game is in a better state then it was 4-5 months ago. As to why don't you simply quit the game until the original cast is reworked; I paid money for this product. I gave my earned money to play this game. As a customer, I expect a service, a playable product. I think that everyone here has been more than patient enough with the game crashes, game drops, red NAT crap, bugs, glitches, exploits etc. Must we have completely unbalanced, new-released heroes that feel like they are light years ahead of the rest of the cast? Really? And you ask why some of us are salty, or whine in the forums...

On a side note, this post is not directed to attack anyone. Over the past few posts I have mentioned knight_raime specifically. I would like to take this opportunity to say this; knight_raime I think you are a cool guy with great posts. I see that you put a lot of effort into them, giving good examples, advice and numbers. You are, as far as I am concerned, a very good and active forum member, and i genuinely respect you, your opinions and posts. But this does not prevent me from having different opinions than you, and this is fine. The core of all good and constructive arguments is presenting different sides of opinions and finding a middle ground.

To the rest of you guys, saying that shaman is fine as she is, that she is only overtuned (lol, 'overtuned'). That is your opinion. Mine, and as the pool would suggest the larger majorities, is that 'overtuned' is just a fancy way to say 'she's OP, but she's not really OP'. Please UBISOFT, re-balance her to the level of the rest of the cast, and after a year, when you finally do fix the defense turtle meta, decide what you really want to do with parries and rework the original cast, then, rebuff her. Do not allow another centurion situation where you drove off so much of the players and the community; people that paid for this game, and believed in you and For Honor.

Lyskir
11-19-2017, 01:00 PM
Ahh, the good old, GIT GUD or get the hell out. Nice. Attacking everyone posting here that doesn't agree with you. Very Nice. But you know what? Shaman has nothing to do with GIT GUD. You know why she is OP. I'll repeat to you once again; it's not that her UNIQUE mechanics are impossible to deal with (and let's be honest, she doesn't have any, all of her 'unique' mechanics are borrowed from the rest of the cast and vastly improved upon), it's the fact that she has everything crammed into one hero, and it gives her way too much options when compared to everyone else, even the second new hero Ronin... Oh, silly me, I mean Aramusha [like that fooled anyone UBI]. Now, you might say, 'But that is what we want, every hero should look like that, it is going in the right direction, the old cast will get reworked, bla, bla BLA...' And I could agree with this if it not for the following:

1. Not everyone wants [and I believe the majority of players when looking at the forums and reddit] to have every hero play almost the same with a few differences in aesthetics and a couple of moves. People want heroes with different concepts that give them various STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES [yeah weaknesses, something that shaman sorely lacks].

2. While I might agree that, conceptually, she is great [which I do], and that her design is a step in the right direction, a few things are completely unfair with her design which DO MAKE HER OVERPOWERED when compared to the rest of the cast. She has good options to open turtles, she is unpredictable and aggressive. GREAT! But why the big HP pool [considering that she is an assassin with all these abilities], why the ultra-rewording and ATM ultra-safe grab-kissing-love bite BS? Why can she put a bleed on her deflect as well as her soft feints. So she is, not only ultra in-your-face aggressive, but if someone does possess blinding speed reflexes to block or, God forbid, even parry her abnormally fast attacks, she can simply turtle up and wait for a deflect. If you can not see that giving a single hero all the strengths with no weaknesses is a bad design choice, than please, do not reply, do not bother. I will not insult you, you have your opinion, but I will not waste my time on you.

3. You might, in the end say, that the original cast will eventually be reworked to her level. Now let's disregard the whole 2nd argument where I state why her design choice is actually bad. Let's say, GREAT, we all want the original cast to be more viable, with better options, more similar to the Shaman. YAY! This will fix everything! Guess what? This would be a somewhat viable argument [as knight_raime pushes it with some of the rest of you guys] if not for the fact that, let's be honest here guys, those changes will come in a half a year, or even a fully year, if we are lucky. So that means that we have to suffer this OP character for how long??? Thank you, but I had enough of This-is-Romna's-new-favourite-character-and-we-will-categorically-ignore-your-suggestions-and-feedback dev attitude.

4. Lastly, some of you might say; dude why so salty. You need to chill, take a break from the game, to which i have two simple things to say: I am salty because i love this game and its uniqueness. There is currently no other game like For Honor, and I very much enjoy it [especially when playing games with no shamans now]. Good changes are coming, and this game is in a better state then it was 4-5 months ago. As to why don't you simply quit the game until the original cast is reworked; I paid money for this product. I gave my earned money to play this game. As a customer, I expect a service, a playable product. I think that everyone here has been more than patient enough with the game crashes, game drops, red NAT crap, bugs, glitches, exploits etc. Must we have completely unbalanced, new-released heroes that feel like they are light years ahead of the rest of the cast? Really? And you ask why some of us are salty, or whine in the forums...

On a side note, this post is not directed to attack anyone. Over the past few posts I have mentioned knight_raime specifically. I would like to take this opportunity to say this; knight_raime I think you are a cool guy with great posts. I see that you put a lot of effort into them, giving good examples, advice and numbers. You are, as far as I am concerned, a very good and active forum member, and i genuinely respect you, your opinions and posts. But this does not prevent me from having different opinions than you, and this is fine. The core of all good and constructive arguments is presenting different sides of opinions and finding a middle ground.

To the rest of you guys, saying that shaman is fine as she is, that she is only overtuned (lol, 'overtuned'). That is your opinion. Mine, and as the pool would suggest the larger majorities, is that 'overtuned' is just a fancy way to say 'she's OP, but she's not really OP'. Please UBISOFT, re-balance her to the level of the rest of the cast, and after a year, when you finally do fix the defense turtle meta, decide what you really want to do with parries and rework the original cast, then, rebuff her. Do not allow another centurion situation where you drove off so much of the players and the community; people that paid for this game, and believed in you and For Honor.



....amen

David_gorda
11-19-2017, 01:51 PM
+1

CandleInTheDark
11-19-2017, 01:57 PM
Ahh, the good old, GIT GUD or get the hell out. Nice. Attacking everyone posting here that doesn't agree with you. Very Nice. But you know what? Shaman has nothing to do with GIT GUD. You know why she is OP. I'll repeat to you once again; it's not that her UNIQUE mechanics are impossible to deal with (and let's be honest, she doesn't have any, all of her 'unique' mechanics are borrowed from the rest of the cast and vastly improved upon), it's the fact that she has everything crammed into one hero, and it gives her way too much options when compared to everyone else, even the second new hero Ronin... Oh, silly me, I mean Aramusha [like that fooled anyone UBI]. Now, you might say, 'But that is what we want, every hero should look like that, it is going in the right direction, the old cast will get reworked, bla, bla BLA...' And I could agree with this if it not for the following:

1. Not everyone wants [and I believe the majority of players when looking at the forums and reddit] to have every hero play almost the same with a few differences in aesthetics and a couple of moves. People want heroes with different concepts that give them various STRENGTHS & WEAKNESSES [yeah weaknesses, something that shaman sorely lacks].

2. While I might agree that, conceptually, she is great [which I do], and that her design is a step in the right direction, a few things are completely unfair with her design which DO MAKE HER OVERPOWERED when compared to the rest of the cast. She has good options to open turtles, she is unpredictable and aggressive. GREAT! But why the big HP pool [considering that she is an assassin with all these abilities], why the ultra-rewording and ATM ultra-safe grab-kissing-love bite BS? Why can she put a bleed on her deflect as well as her soft feints. So she is, not only ultra in-your-face aggressive, but if someone does possess blinding speed reflexes to block or, God forbid, even parry her abnormally fast attacks, she can simply turtle up and wait for a deflect. If you can not see that giving a single hero all the strengths with no weaknesses is a bad design choice, than please, do not reply, do not bother. I will not insult you, you have your opinion, but I will not waste my time on you.

3. You might, in the end say, that the original cast will eventually be reworked to her level. Now let's disregard the whole 2nd argument where I state why her design choice is actually bad. Let's say, GREAT, we all want the original cast to be more viable, with better options, more similar to the Shaman. YAY! This will fix everything! Guess what? This would be a somewhat viable argument [as knight_raime pushes it with some of the rest of you guys] if not for the fact that, let's be honest here guys, those changes will come in a half a year, or even a fully year, if we are lucky. So that means that we have to suffer this OP character for how long??? Thank you, but I had enough of This-is-Romna's-new-favourite-character-and-we-will-categorically-ignore-your-suggestions-and-feedback dev attitude.

4. Lastly, some of you might say; dude why so salty. You need to chill, take a break from the game, to which i have two simple things to say: I am salty because i love this game and its uniqueness. There is currently no other game like For Honor, and I very much enjoy it [especially when playing games with no shamans now]. Good changes are coming, and this game is in a better state then it was 4-5 months ago. As to why don't you simply quit the game until the original cast is reworked; I paid money for this product. I gave my earned money to play this game. As a customer, I expect a service, a playable product. I think that everyone here has been more than patient enough with the game crashes, game drops, red NAT crap, bugs, glitches, exploits etc. Must we have completely unbalanced, new-released heroes that feel like they are light years ahead of the rest of the cast? Really? And you ask why some of us are salty, or whine in the forums...

On a side note, this post is not directed to attack anyone. Over the past few posts I have mentioned knight_raime specifically. I would like to take this opportunity to say this; knight_raime I think you are a cool guy with great posts. I see that you put a lot of effort into them, giving good examples, advice and numbers. You are, as far as I am concerned, a very good and active forum member, and i genuinely respect you, your opinions and posts. But this does not prevent me from having different opinions than you, and this is fine. The core of all good and constructive arguments is presenting different sides of opinions and finding a middle ground.

To the rest of you guys, saying that shaman is fine as she is, that she is only overtuned (lol, 'overtuned'). That is your opinion. Mine, and as the pool would suggest the larger majorities, is that 'overtuned' is just a fancy way to say 'she's OP, but she's not really OP'. Please UBISOFT, re-balance her to the level of the rest of the cast, and after a year, when you finally do fix the defense turtle meta, decide what you really want to do with parries and rework the original cast, then, rebuff her. Do not allow another centurion situation where you drove off so much of the players and the community; people that paid for this game, and believed in you and For Honor.

I wouldn't say that all of her mechanics are vast improvements on others, they are as strong for different reasons. Taking predator's mercy, the main comparison is with the Shugoki demon's embrace and people complain that she has everything that has without the damage on miss, of course what those people miss out is that she does not have scaling damage or a one hit ko and when they say that he needs a wallsplat (which he doesn't, it is just safer to get one) they forget that she needs to have people bleeding first making it more situational. You could also compare it to the Centurion eagle's talon, except that unlike eagle's talon she can be knocked off with a friendly attack and the opponent isn't left vulnerable to any other passing Shaman before they stand up as the move kills the bleed damage. Which is not to say that move and others could not do with looking at, I want to make that clear, I believe the tracking is horrendous, while I have seen it dodged I have to say I have rarely been dodged and the fact that I can go into a second pounce, even though that pounce puts me out of stamina, and still get to where someone had escape rolled away from me, I think that needs looking at. Outside of that there have been improvements to general playability on both sides, not only is her spam potential lessened given the range of some of her attacks, it is inefficient when you consider she wants to inflict bleed. The soft cancels are actually harder to pull off than the Peacekeeper's (speaking as a Peacekeeper main who uses her whole kit) who doesn't get to change direction and that is because of the range of them, all three direction double light, yeah that I kind of agree with, the next best is Warden from both sides.

Addressing your numbered points

1. Fair point, not all heroes should be almost the same and they should have their own style, at the same time I do think that all heroes should have the kind of versatility she has because that promotes something Tekken has been praised for, a low skill floor and, at the same time, a high skill ceiling (going off reviews, I haven't played it since Tekken Tag). Some things do need looking at, damage numbers, speed of certain moves, the distance she has on them, the distance she throws people off a guardbreak (you can't say that gives more reaction time because it guarantees the predator's pounce/mercy) I certainly think the recovery on a miss could do with going up even taking into account she gets a second go at it when people are bleeding, outside of that I don't want to say anything until I have seen what Ubi do with her tracking in the next patch.

2.I kind of agree with most of this, given she can get hp back, she could certainly do with losing at the least half a bar, maybe a full bar, any further and I don't think you leave any room to lower either her bleed capability or the capability of her predator's mercy as aggression against her can shut those down. At the moment yeah Predator's Mercy is too safe, I had wanted to see how it played because the players putting up early videos had shown it can be read and dodged but at my level of play I haven't seen it often. I do agree with the bleed on deflect point, I can see why they have done it because conceptually, all of her kukri attacks are bleed attacks, the problem I have is she has to have a deflect so what do they give her? Give her a Berserker guardbreak and that means she gets a free predator's mercy if the opponent is bleeding, give her an Orochi style attack with the axe and that is just something else that people will say she shouldn't have from another character. That aside, while I believe the soft feints take some skill to pull off with their range, finishing chains is not as hard as I thought it would be before playing her, especially with her dodge attacks starting the heavy-heavy chain, so she could survive losing her bleed on deflect supposing she had something else. I believe she does have weaknesses or things that can be exploited, especially against aggressive players who won't let her get off her pounce or most of her bleed stuff - I have had Berserkers shut down the whole kit because there was simply no gap to get them in - but the windows of opportunity for her strengths are disproportionately higher than the windows of opportunity at exploiting her weaknesses and she needs work on that from both directions.

3. Well yeah that is the point I have been making, those reworks are coming and I believe the top priority should be getting them in within this season or by the start of the next one, at the very least for the lower tier characters (and they are showing some prioritising towards that with their first batch). In my opinion as long as they go with the weakest on up, the stronger ones (talking about Warlord, Peacekeeper as much as I want a rework to get her light spam dealt with, Raider) can wait half a year but they must be rolled out as quick as they can. That is why my preference is that they deal with the obvious flaws which she does have as I mentioned above and then put all of their attention onto that.

4. Very much agreed, this is a unique game, I have said pretty much exactly what you said to others but those people are the type who have been complaining for the last half year and saying they want to buy other games so...go buy those games. I do get that for people who love this game and want it to succeed it is frustrating.

I have used overtuned and I mean it in the way Knight Raime has used it, that her kit is something to be excited about for the future but there are flaws that they can bring down with changing numbers. I believe changes need making and that they are relatively easy to fix as opposed to Centurion who they could fix in 4v4 or 1v1 easily but not both at the same time. There are things they need to do and I believe it should not take as long as the Centurion because it should be easier to fix her without breaking her in one of the modes.

Justicator
11-19-2017, 02:21 PM
I seriously hope she gets re balanced quickly. I believe that the particular outcry of the community for the shaman is more to blame on the whole centurion fiasco and people still being somewhat angry with that than the level of shaman's OPeness. I also agree with you, CandleInThe Dark, that she can be more easily balanced overall then the centurion because, as I have stated, conceptually she is a good hero, better designed that some, that's for sure. But, if fairness is something to be desired while balancing, she obviously has too much benefits and too little negatives ATM when compared to the rest of the cast.

Alustar.
11-19-2017, 02:44 PM
I don't get on board with the OP label that's thrown around games now a days. I'm an old school gamer, OP to me is a completely different aspect.

Most of these posts on here are from the less mature player base, raging about how the new toys they don't have yet are ruining their matches. A lot of the complaints can be traced back to one simple thing: a lack of detailed experience combating the new heroes.
I really wish that topics like these would hold of for a couple of weeks give these new guys some time to settle in before you go flying off the handle.
To me if you were really serious about the game, instead of trying to get classes you don't like nerfed, you could go grab a friend and train?

Or, did practicing go out of style in 2010? It's hard to keep up these days.

CandleInTheDark
11-19-2017, 03:22 PM
I seriously hope she gets re balanced quickly. I believe that the particular outcry of the community for the shaman is more to blame on the whole centurion fiasco and people still being somewhat angry with that than the level of shaman's OPeness. I also agree with you, CandleInThe Dark, that she can be more easily balanced overall then the centurion because, as I have stated, conceptually she is a good hero, better designed that some, that's for sure. But, if fairness is something to be desired while balancing, she obviously has too much benefits and too little negatives ATM when compared to the rest of the cast.

That is possibly where I have a little less sympathy over some of the complaints. I've never used Centurion but I was one of those who, after the initial OMG I can't do anything against him, loaded up level three bots until i could and when they drop the training mode whenever they are able to certify it given they have to recertify the entire game, that will be easier. He is probably one of the most unfun to fight but not something I wouldn't say I can't fight,at least against people at my level. My issues in 4v4 were crowd control as a whole and that is a matter of deal with it because there are others who have it. At the same time yeah she has some flaws and I hope they act on the more obvious ones quickly, we already know there is a tracking adjustment in the next patch so there is that at least and they will have to see what else needs changing.

IMMA_MAILGEYMER
11-19-2017, 03:54 PM
Also what's with people thinking they don't test their own product?

I just ask because this is getting out of hand. Just because you as a player are having difficulty doesn't mean that the game is broken or wasn't test. It likely means the changes currently affecting gameplay as whole are new and unexpected. Thus shaking you out of that lull of repetitive face rolling.
Don't forget, life exists outside of you.

I miss the days when forums were a place where players asked questions about strategies and tactics before they pissed and moaned about how the other players new toys are ruining their game.

Hey: fist of all thanks for not quoting me directly, because i' usually don't deal with such r*****s, but i'm doing an exeption because of this sentence: "Just because you as a player are having difficulty doesn't mean that the game is broken or wasn't test." Aramusha getting guard broken during a light attack startup is a FLAW, not something i can't deal with. Is you IQ able to make that distinction? Because i've never said it was my personal problem. This **** is happening since season 1.
I miss the days when forums were a place where players weren't just spitting out random ******** and upvoting their own comments.

WarrenPeace45
11-19-2017, 04:48 PM
She's stupidly broken and anyone that says other wise either mains her because they suck, or they're mentally ******ed.

mowetcrackdemon
11-19-2017, 05:29 PM
yes

Vakris_One
11-19-2017, 06:39 PM
She's stupidly broken and anyone that says other wise either mains her because they suck, or they're mentally ******ed.
Nice tantrum there. With ... "arguments" like that I'm sure the devs will have enough quality feedback to adjust her accordingly.

SammyCannon
11-19-2017, 07:12 PM
^^ Seriously, what do you want people to tell you? If you have one apple and add two apples then you would get three apples.
It is obvious OP. It is already recognized by the developers and the shaman will get nerfed.

Tyler-Durdin
11-19-2017, 07:25 PM
Obviously recognized because all the same crybabies are claiming its OP.
They also claimed OP
- Warden
- Orochi
- Valkyrie
- Beserker
- Warlord
- Lawbringer
- Conqueror
- Nobushi
- Shugoki
- Peacekeeper
- Centurion
- Shinobi
- Gladiator
People want def meta change they give us a character to counter def meta now people want nerfs cos they cant use def meta.
It takes time to learn to counter shaman but its entirely possible to devastate them.
A lot of you are complaining because you haven't/refuse to learn how to effectively counter a shaman.
But seeing that whingers will always win shaman will get nerfed to levels that will make her a flaming pile of poo just so all the whingers can go on with their happy def meta ways.
The beserker rework will get the same "ITS TOO OP" posts mark my words.

UnhappyLawbro
11-19-2017, 07:55 PM
I wouldn't say she's OP, but definitely overtuned. I'm so tired of playing heroes like LB with whom there's pretty much nothing you can do but turtle. It's very nice to see heroes with a bunch of movesets.

UnhappyLawbro
11-19-2017, 07:57 PM
Obviously recognized because all the same crybabies are claiming its OP.
They also claimed OP
- Warden
- Orochi
- Valkyrie
- Beserker
- Warlord
- Lawbringer
- Conqueror
- Nobushi
- Shugoki
- Peacekeeper
- Centurion
- Shinobi
- Gladiator
People want def meta change they give us a character to counter def meta now people want nerfs cos they cant use def meta.
It takes time to learn to counter shaman but its entirely possible to devastate them.
A lot of you are complaining because you learned how to effectively counter a shaman.
But seeing that whingers will always win shaman will get nerfed to levels that will make her a flaming pile of poo just so all the whingers can go on with their happy def meta ways.
The beserker rework will get the same "ITS TOO OP" posts mark my words.

I swear I've seen posts complaining about the Highlander being OP too when he was just released. Basically there are people who complain about OPness each time they lose against that particular character.

Tyler-Durdin
11-19-2017, 08:15 PM
Your correct and the devs only listen to the complainers which is why some characters are in the state they are in and being reworked.

Baturai
11-19-2017, 08:45 PM
No man, she is the only hero i can win with, what are you talking about ?

CandleInTheDark
11-19-2017, 08:46 PM
People want def meta change they give us a character to counter def meta now people want nerfs cos they cant use def meta.
It takes time to learn to counter shaman but its entirely possible to devastate them.

I think that is at least part of the problem (outside of things like the tracking and how far she can kick you), people try to be defensive against her because it works against everything else. bearing in mind I am not by any means a regular duelist, I have two kinds of matches with her.

The first is that people try to block my every move while they look for a parry. They let me get close-ish until they try an attack where I go for the spin heavy then either top heavy or right heavy to look for the chain finish and attempt at the bleed, very occasionally later in the fight the left unblockable to take advantage of the different parry timing, usually the second heavy gets parried or the bleed gets blocked but it only takes one getting through and so long as I don't pounce right away into a panicked heavy which would knock me out of the action I will likely get predator's mercy. Either that or they let me get in their face and try to block the cancels or chain starters but it only takes them missing on one block or biting on one feint.

The second is people actually attack me. I had a fight against a berserker, now of course they come out swinging, that is their best bet against anyone, so rather than try bleed attacks at my leisure, the onus shifts to me to shut down his offence before the second shot or to wait out his stamina. I beat that berserker but I got a total of two bleeds and one predator's mercy in five rounds, the predator's mercy coming after he dodged the first attempt. I had another against a warlord, again he came out swinging which really does not suit him but again I had to deal with his attacks before I could get bleed in, the problem being I couldn't go for a cancel and he was also good enough at parrying that he could go counter crushing strike or wallsplat me, eventually winning 3-1 with a ledge at the last, usually that ledge would feel cheap but damn he earned it.

If you go defensive against a Shaman, you let her dictate the terms which is to her advantage, she can go for whatever bleed method her player prefers at leisure, that is a lot harder when trying to close the distance means eating a heavy or forcing her to go offensive enough she gives you something parryable, the problem there being that doesn't suit people who want to stick as close to the current meta as they can.

SammyCannon
11-19-2017, 10:12 PM
The answer to defensive endplay is not to implement a spam fräst which will ruin console play.

Herbstlicht
11-19-2017, 10:40 PM
Well, due to the insane numbers, many people, specially the more skilled they are, are going to curse shaman simply because they lost to a stronger character and not a stronger player. Besides one should not denote her defence. Her dodges are better then Aramusha who got this as a special feature going for him, deflect and dodge heavy attack on top. And you have plenty of options with this dodge attacks alone. All her versatility and myriad of options should come with a trade off. But right now they don't.
Personally, I am mainly in favor of slowing the most obnoxious stuff down to make her more reactible too, keep damage numbers high and maybe decrease health if slowing down doesn't work.
Isn't 600 ms for a lot of unblockables fast enough to land plenty of times?

SenBotsu893
11-19-2017, 11:08 PM
the only people who say she isnt op are the ones that want to keep playing her because they can win with her without making an effort.
its so obvious how broken she is. i just wonder how the devs can be this biased with her. i expected a little more professional outcome after season 2 heroes where somewhat normal.
its centurion all over again.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-19-2017, 11:43 PM
People want def meta change they give us a character to counter def meta now people want nerfs cos they cant use def meta.

Indeed Shaman destroys the defensive meta... for the opponent. Unfortunately the Shaman herself still benefits massively from the defensive meta.

As a conqueror pretty much every light you do is going to be deflected by a good Shaman into a guaranteed bleed. Suddenly you're a 400ms unblockable away from losing a third of your health while the Shaman gains 25. Same goes for heavies of course. The other even more devastating option is getting parried. The other day I threw a heavy when I was at 80% stamina at least and I got parried into a guaranteed guard break into throw so I was down in OOS and that's 2 guaranteed heavies and sometimes a guaranteed bleed for the Shaman and half my health gone. Shield bashes are a no go, they're just going to be pretty much a free dodge heavy for the Shaman.

On the bright side, at least Shaman only has the standard assassin base HP.... OOPS they also heal on all attacks during bleed making them way more resilient than that standard base HP as a result. From what I've been able to piece together is that they get about 4 health back per hit on average. That's based on analyzing a video of myself being able to do one light hit + 1 heavy worth of chip damage, so 14 damage and in only 4 hits the Shaman was back up to full. So like 5 attacks and they have he health of a conqueror, I mean how ****ing stupid is that? This class should have pre-buff shinbo health just for the fact it can regenerate it alone.

People complain that people are "reacting too quickly", but how about Ubisoft not making such reckless changes in the first place? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a class with a ton of strengths and virtually no weaknesses is going to be imbalanced. Also as far as reworks to get the other characters up to speed, well, the conq's been promised a rework since season 1 and still nothing but yet they sure can give Shaman a ton of goodies they don't need. That's pretty frustrating for someone playing Conqueror since open beta but apparently the real problem is not this class that pretty much invalidates every vanilla character but rather that people are justifiably angry about it.

Dane520123
11-19-2017, 11:57 PM
Nice tantrum there. With ... "arguments" like that I'm sure the devs will have enough quality feedback to adjust her accordingly.

That tantrum shows how everyone else feels, dumb dumb

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 12:20 AM
Indeed Shaman destroys the defensive meta... for the opponent. Unfortunately the Shaman herself still benefits massively from the defensive meta.

As a conqueror pretty much every light you do is going to be deflected by a good Shaman into a guaranteed bleed. Suddenly you're a 400ms unblockable away from losing a third of your health while the Shaman gains 25. Same goes for heavies of course. The other even more devastating option is getting parried. The other day I threw a heavy when I was at 80% stamina at least and I got parried into a guaranteed guard break into throw so I was down in OOS and that's 2 guaranteed heavies and sometimes a guaranteed bleed for the Shaman and half my health gone. Shield bashes are a no go, they're just going to be pretty much a free dodge heavy for the Shaman.

On the bright side, at least Shaman only has the standard assassin base HP.... OOPS they also heal on all attacks during bleed making them way more resilient than that standard base HP as a result. From what I've been able to piece together is that they get about 4 health back per hit on average. That's based on analyzing a video of myself being able to do one light hit + 1 heavy worth of chip damage, so 14 damage and in only 4 hits the Shaman was back up to full. So like 5 attacks and they have he health of a conqueror, I mean how ****ing stupid is that? This class should have pre-buff shinbo health just for the fact it can regenerate it alone.

People complain that people are "reacting too quickly", but how about Ubisoft not making such reckless changes in the first place? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a class with a ton of strengths and virtually no weaknesses is going to be imbalanced. Also as far as reworks to get the other characters up to speed, well, the conq's been promised a rework since season 1 and still nothing but yet they sure can give Shaman a ton of goodies they don't need. That's pretty frustrating for someone playing Conqueror since open beta but apparently the real problem is not this class that pretty much invalidates every vanilla character but rather that people are justifiably angry about it.

Everyone benefits from playing defensive and passive. Don't see why you felt like pointing this out.
Conq is a bad kit. Bad example to try and make a point of balance against literally anyone.
The fact that you actually did the math on that to try and shoe horn a point in is admirable. In a 1v1 the health she gets back from those hits is basically ignorable. In any 4v4 it's also ignorable due to feats that heal and zones to heal in. The only place it might make a minor difference in is brawl. if shaman manages to land 5 hits on you you're probably dead anyway since majority of her hits are lethal damage. So it doesn't impact the individual fight even in brawl.

"Virtually no weaknesses" is the straw that breaks the back. There are absolutely things you can do to counter her. People either haven't learned of it yet or refuse to acknowledge them because "hur dur shaman OP" circle jerk mentality. There isn't anything wrong with people being frustrated. The problem is nonconstructive feedback like yours. And instead of productive discussions where people actually look at a kit and try to figure out the intent for a move we get "welp that's stupid this is exactly how to nerf it" which doesn't help the developers in the slightest. If you can't be constructive about your feedback why even post.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-20-2017, 02:15 AM
Everyone benefits from playing defensive and passive. Don't see why you felt like pointing this out.
Conq is a bad kit. Bad example to try and make a point of balance against literally anyone.
The fact that you actually did the math on that to try and shoe horn a point in is admirable. In a 1v1 the health she gets back from those hits is basically ignorable. In any 4v4 it's also ignorable due to feats that heal and zones to heal in. The only place it might make a minor difference in is brawl. if shaman manages to land 5 hits on you you're probably dead anyway since majority of her hits are lethal damage. So it doesn't impact the individual fight even in brawl.

Not when you're playing against a Shaman as a non-shaman, and what did Shaman lose to get such great offensive capabilities? A persistent guard? That's about it. How is it not completely imbalanced that you get amazing offensive capabilities while maintaining good defensive ones too. Where's the downsides? You either play passive and get curb stomped by their superb pressure or you go aggressive and get curb stomped by their more than adequate defensive capabilities in a game where playing defensively is so strong. Why is this even necessary to point out? If your class has a ton of strengths then it needs weaknesses too, DUH.

Ignorable? My 12 damage light as a conq turns into a mere 4 damage if a shaman gets even one light on me (since the 2nd is guaranteed) so that's 8 health back for them even though their lights are far easier to land. You're essentially reducing 2/3rds of a previous attack with your lights and you think that's garbage?

Oh sorry, apparently you think it's okay if conq has a virtually unwinnable matchup, so I guess I'll point out that other classes have an equally low damage for their lights. Furthermore 15 damage lights are pretty common among the characters and that's getting cut by 53%. Lastly, are you really forgetting that 400ms unblockable that you can't even punish that gives Shaman 25 health back? To disagree with my overall point that shaman is incredibly more resilient than her assassin counterparts is completely stupid.

And as for "it's admirable that I did the math", Raime, what a scumbag move. All you do is dismiss people as needing to be more constructive with their feedback against Shaman but when someone actually takes the time to research a point you then use that fact to do what is a thinly veiled equivalent of "WOW! WHAT A NERD".


"Virtually no weaknesses" is the straw that breaks the back. There are absolutely things you can do to counter her. People either haven't learned of it yet or refuse to acknowledge them because "hur dur shaman OP" circle jerk mentality. There isn't anything wrong with people being frustrated. The problem is nonconstructive feedback like yours. And instead of productive discussions where people actually look at a kit and try to figure out the intent for a move we get "welp that's stupid this is exactly how to nerf it" which doesn't help the developers in the slightest. If you can't be constructive about your feedback why even post.

I was directly replying to someone who asserted that Shaman gets rid of the defensive meta and pointed out how that's really not true given all of her great defensive options and I went through all of those defensive options in detail referencing exact numbers and giving examples of just how strong they can be. You obviously have an extremely biased definition of what constructive feedback is if that doesn't qualify.

I find it highly amusing and ironic that you ended your reply with "If you can't be constructive about your feedback why even post" even though your entire motivation for being on these forums is protect your OP class from becoming balanced. Sorry to break it to you Raime, but games are supposed to be challenging, so what's the point of playing them if all you do is pick easy mode and fight at every step to keep it that way?

Jhonbanting
11-20-2017, 03:00 AM
buff other char, dont nerf shaman
and no, shaman not OP

kbvlcvfkhgc
11-20-2017, 03:10 AM
Well done Ubisoft,.......... slow hand clap,,,,,, you've done it again, nothing learned whatsoever from thye Centurion Fiasco i see,

seriously how can this company be any more direspectful to its playerbase,

is Shaman OP? yes absolutely and so is the Aramusha too, they just have everything, im watching Lvl 3 Shamans and aramushs's destroy teams of original roster Rep 36's, seriously WTF gives?

super fast, bleeds , high damage, health recovery, insane dodging, face biting, kicks, lityerally everything? its like UBIsoft sat down and decided to mix the PK, Beserker, Centurion, Raider & Shukogi together and call it the Shaman,

what is wrong with Ubisoft? seriously are they determined to alaienate their entire longterm playerbaser and destroy this game?

Inconsistent73
11-20-2017, 08:22 AM
The shaman is blatantly, obviously, indisputably overpowered relative to every other character in the game. If you won't acknowledge that, you're toxic. If you genuinely don't believe that, you're ignorant and/or stupid.

That being said;

Although she is overpowered, she is not game breaking. She can definitely afford to drop a few tools from her needlessly excessively extensive kit, but it would be much better to buff everyone else than to nerf her. Shaman has set a new standard that all other characters should be reworked around.

Ubisoft has stayed true to form by taking a good concept and implementing it poorly, but it's a start. All we can do is hope that they have the sense to put new content on the back burner until the real problems are solved.

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 09:34 AM
Not when you're playing against a Shaman as a non-shaman, and what did Shaman lose to get such great offensive capabilities? A persistent guard? That's about it. How is it not completely imbalanced that you get amazing offensive capabilities while maintaining good defensive ones too. Where's the downsides? You either play passive and get curb stomped by their superb pressure or you go aggressive and get curb stomped by their more than adequate defensive capabilities in a game where playing defensively is so strong. Why is this even necessary to point out? If your class has a ton of strengths then it needs weaknesses too, DUH.

Ignorable? My 12 damage light as a conq turns into a mere 4 damage if a shaman gets even one light on me (since the 2nd is guaranteed) so that's 8 health back for them even though their lights are far easier to land. You're essentially reducing 2/3rds of a previous attack with your lights and you think that's garbage?

Oh sorry, apparently you think it's okay if conq has a virtually unwinnable matchup, so I guess I'll point out that other classes have an equally low damage for their lights. Furthermore 15 damage lights are pretty common among the characters and that's getting cut by 53%. Lastly, are you really forgetting that 400ms unblockable that you can't even punish that gives Shaman 25 health back? To disagree with my overall point that shaman is incredibly more resilient than her assassin counterparts is completely stupid.

And as for "it's admirable that I did the math", Raime, what a scumbag move. All you do is dismiss people as needing to be more constructive with their feedback against Shaman but when someone actually takes the time to research a point you then use that fact to do what is a thinly veiled equivalent of "WOW! WHAT A NERD".



I was directly replying to someone who asserted that Shaman gets rid of the defensive meta and pointed out how that's really not true given all of her great defensive options and I went through all of those defensive options in detail referencing exact numbers and giving examples of just how strong they can be. You obviously have an extremely biased definition of what constructive feedback is if that doesn't qualify.

I find it highly amusing and ironic that you ended your reply with "If you can't be constructive about your feedback why even post" even though your entire motivation for being on these forums is protect your OP class from becoming balanced. Sorry to break it to you Raime, but games are supposed to be challenging, so what's the point of playing them if all you do is pick easy mode and fight at every step to keep it that way?


"not when you're playing a non shaman vs a shaman"
That's not how it works. The benefits of playing passive always exist regardless of what kind of matchup you have. My parries don't perform or act different. Mechanics stay the same.
Actually playing aggressive is how you win VS Shaman. if you sit back and wait you get destroyed.
As I pointed out there are indeed counters to her play. But you pretty much glossed over that.

"ignorable?..."
The math is sound. Doesn't mean it's actually making a difference though. If you can actually show me a fight where it made the difference of life or death i'll concede.
I believe the only thing i've ever said along those lines in any post here ever was that I was "fine" with the game having unfavorable match ups. That doesn't mean I think it's alright for Conq to be the state he's in. And there is such thing as odds being too stacked. which is the case in Shaman VS Conq. But as i've already pointed out his is a bad kit. So in this match up it's more the conq's fault and needing to be fixed.

I mean if you want to over simplify what I said to make me sound worse go right ahead. I told you why I didn't think the health recovery from basic attacks.
Nah there are people around here who i've actually had a decent back and forth with when we didn't agree on something. I only give "dimissive and rude" replies to people who behave as such. You might have wrote some decent points and did some numbers but the overall attitude of your post was very whiny and thus I replied this specific way. Maybe next time you shouldn't use such hyperbolic statements like "she has no weakness."

Nah. Constructive to me more or less just ignores hyperbolic posts, hyper inflated statements, obscene amounts of insults or cussing etc. It's actually pretty reasonable.
In my eyes your post wasn't constructive for 2 reasons. One you claimed she had no weakness. And 2 you compared her to conq which is known through out the community to have a very very very bad kit. Skewing things vastly in favor of your argument. IMO if you wanted to make a good point you'd have compared her to another widely considered good kit. Like glad.

That specific line you quoted me on was in the general sense. Not just at you. But the icing on the cake is that you're assuming i'm defending her because I don't have a pitchfork along side you. And that you think I'm playing her exclusively so I don't want her nerfed. If you saw my very first post in this thread you'd see I acknowledge she's over tuned and needs adjusting. Further more i've outwordly spoken in a thread I made myself and others on how to nerf her. So you really can't claim that I want to keep her OP. I actually enjoy Aramusha far more than her. I used to be a centurion main. I was constantly advocating for nerfs and changes for him too when he was talk of the town.

But yeah. You keep on thinking you know me man.

PDXGorechild
11-20-2017, 09:49 AM
"hur dur shaman OP" circle jerk mentality. .

Haha I get where you're coming from Knight_Raime, people on forums are prone to jumping on this bandwagon and this forum is no exception. People should get to learn their new opponent before commenting..

However, I think it is obvious at this point the Shaman is, and will probably remain somewhat overpowered. I thought and mentioned this about Centurion after playing a single duel against one at the start of season 2. The fact he could take 60% of my health off from one punish alone highlighted this. Soon it was common knowledge he was horrendously overpowered.

Although my class is a strong counter to Gladiator, it was obvious from watching skilled players use them that they are somewhat OP at the start of season 3. Now common knowledge.

Here we are in season 3 and it's the same story - one "in your face class" with a ridiculous kit, and a host of annoying abilities such as hard stun, unblockables and openers that make most of the OG classes look like a wooden stick compared to a broadsword.

Is she crazily overpowered compared to the other overpowered classes? Not really. She's by no means unkillable either. But I think most of the people so appalled by her are the same players like myself playing the same old classes in desperate need of attention, getting frustrated at new classes having SO many options compared to their own.

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 10:15 AM
Haha I get where you're coming from Knight_Raime, people on forums are prone to jumping on this bandwagon and this forum is no exception. People should get to learn their new opponent before commenting..

However, I think it is obvious at this point the Shaman is, and will probably remain somewhat overpowered. I thought and mentioned this about Centurion after playing a single duel against one at the start of season 2. The fact he could take 60% of my health off from one punish alone highlighted this. Soon it was common knowledge he was horrendously overpowered.

Although my class is a strong counter to Gladiator, it was obvious from watching skilled players use them that they are somewhat OP at the start of season 3. Now common knowledge.

Here we are in season 3 and it's the same story - one "in your face class" with a ridiculous kit, and a host of annoying abilities such as hard stun, unblockables and openers that make most of the OG classes look like a wooden stick compared to a broadsword.

Is she crazily overpowered compared to the other overpowered classes? Not really. She's by no means unkillable either. But I think most of the people so appalled by her are the same players like myself playing the same old classes in desperate need of attention, getting frustrated at new classes having SO many options compared to their own.

ehh. I don't think so. With centurion it's because parry hasn't been fixed yet. if they remove light parry punishes from the game centurion won't get his combo anymore. he'd still have his parry counter which is strong. But his damage potential will go down. In shaman's case I think she'll be easier to balance because she really just needs numbers adjusting. Less damage here some longer recovery times over there and some range removed...you get the picture.

I totally understand how she makes some OG heros feel and I sympathize. But i'd rather they devs rework those heros to Shaman's kit standards than ruin her perfectly designed kit.

PDXGorechild
11-20-2017, 10:27 AM
ehh. I don't think so. With centurion it's because parry hasn't been fixed yet. if they remove light parry punishes from the game centurion won't get his combo anymore. he'd still have his parry counter which is strong. But his damage potential will go down. In shaman's case I think she'll be easier to balance because she really just needs numbers adjusting. Less damage here some longer recovery times over there and some range removed...you get the picture.

I totally understand how she makes some OG heros feel and I sympathize. But i'd rather they devs rework those heros to Shaman's kit standards than ruin her perfectly designed kit.

Agree. Cent is a "Gimped" class in my opinion. He relies heavily on one overpowered combo, but without it, he'd be pretty poor to say the least. High skill Conquerors playing hyper defensive are also a nightmare, but if he does anything other than this boring tactic he's relatively useless. These classes need a rework, not number alterations. Other classes will be simpler to rework, Somi's idea for giving Berserker a melee attack that can be used after a dodge for example may make him viable all by itself. But yes, Shaman has an awesome kit but does need her numbers toned down, cause at this stage being jumped by one and taking a couple hits + leap attack = dead is a bit much.

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 10:30 AM
Agree. Cent is a "Gimped" class in my opinion. He relies heavily on one overpowered combo, but without it, he'd be pretty poor to say the least. High skill Conquerors playing hyper defensive are also a nightmare, but if he does anything other than this boring tactic he's relatively useless. These classes need a rework, not number alterations. Other classes will be simpler to rework, Somi's idea for giving Berserker a melee attack that can be used after a dodge for example may make him viable all by itself. But yes, Shaman has an awesome kit but does need her numbers toned down, cause at this stage being jumped by one and taking a couple hits + leap attack = dead is a bit much.

Yeah I actually don't enjoy playing as Shaman because the fights end too fast.
I actually made a rework thread for centurion awhile back that was supposedly passed to the devs directly. Hopefully some of it gets used when they get to him.
I really am excited for their conq rework. He's the only heavy I can actually stand and I love that a lot can be done with all block canceling. But I hate that he relies on it in order to play even against decent players.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-20-2017, 11:38 AM
"not when you're playing a non shaman vs a shaman"
That's not how it works. The benefits of playing passive always exist regardless of what kind of matchup you have. My parries don't perform or act different. Mechanics stay the same.

Right and good luck getting those parries against PK speed light attacks and heavies/unblockables that can be soft feinted into GB or a bleed light in any direction.


Actually playing aggressive is how you win VS Shaman. if you sit back and wait you get destroyed.

Did you even read what I said? That's my whole point, you're forced to play aggressive against Shaman. The problem being is that they still have all the benefits of the defensive meta so they're completely favored. Do I need to type it again but slower this time?


As I pointed out there are indeed counters to her play. But you pretty much glossed over that.

No you didn't, all you did was say "there are absolutely things you can do to counter her" as if you were about to provide some and then you proceeded to continue moping about people not "giving constructive criticism" for your OP of the month character.


"ignorable?..."
The math is sound. Doesn't mean it's actually making a difference though. If you can actually show me a fight where it made the difference of life or death i'll concede.

Ah yes, to you Shaman just kills too fast for the health regen to matter. Shaman problems, am I right?


I believe the only thing i've ever said along those lines in any post here ever was that I was "fine" with the game having unfavorable match ups. That doesn't mean I think it's alright for Conq to be the state he's in. And there is such thing as odds being too stacked. which is the case in Shaman VS Conq. But as i've already pointed out his is a bad kit. So in this match up it's more the conq's fault and needing to be fixed.

Conqueror is not the only one with problems against Shaman, it's basically the entire vanilla cast. Sure is convenient your idea is to focus on reworking all 12 characters, knowing how long that will take instead of just adjusting one character, eh Raime?


I mean if you want to over simplify what I said to make me sound worse go right ahead.

You didn't need help for that.


Nah there are people around here who i've actually had a decent back and forth with when we didn't agree on something.

Congratulations.


I only give "dimissive and rude" replies to people who behave as such. You might have wrote some decent points and did some numbers but the overall attitude of your post was very whiny and thus I replied this specific way. Maybe next time you shouldn't use such hyperbolic statements like "she has no weakness."

And maybe you should do the bare minimum and actually elaborate on those weaknesses instead of just repeatedly insisting they are there?


Nah. Constructive to me more or less just ignores hyperbolic posts, hyper inflated statements, obscene amounts of insults or cussing etc. It's actually pretty reasonable.

I think you mean "blunt" when you say "hyperbolic".


In my eyes your post wasn't constructive for 2 reasons. One you claimed she had no weakness.

Still waiting on all these supposed weaknesses.


And 2 you compared her to conq which is known through out the community to have a very very very bad kit. Skewing things vastly in favor of your argument. IMO if you wanted to make a good point you'd have compared her to another widely considered good kit. Like glad.

Wow Raime, I sure am sorry that I brought up points that skewed things in the favor of my argument. Would you like completely irrelevant or extremely weak points instead? I don't think I can make your forum experience as easy as Shaman makes the game for you, but I'm sure I can think of something.


That specific line you quoted me on was in the general sense. Not just at you. But the icing on the cake is that you're assuming i'm defending her because I don't have a pitchfork along side you. And that you think I'm playing her exclusively so I don't want her nerfed. If you saw my very first post in this thread you'd see I acknowledge she's over tuned and needs adjusting.

That just means that even you know how futile it is, but you can at least prolong the inevitable, eh Raime?


Further more i've outwordly spoken in a thread I made myself and others on how to nerf her. So you really can't claim that I want to keep her OP. I actually enjoy Aramusha far more than her. I used to be a centurion main. I was constantly advocating for nerfs and changes for him too when he was talk of the town.

You basically cried that centurion was garbage in 1v1 outside of his light parry punish and tried to attach buffs with the nerfs you proposed so he'd stay just as strong. Also isn't it just a coincidence that you seem to hop from OP character to OP character? Weird, man.

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 11:42 AM
Mmm yeah post a video where you fight lvl 3 shaman bot and you dont play shaman yourself knight raime. I want to see how you counter shaman lol.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 11:59 AM
Better idea would be playing against a level 3 not yourself and learn to play instead of complaining all day

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 12:08 PM
I am better then you Alustar but i dont like op classes in the Game, So stop defending your op Class all day and learn to play.

Wicahan
11-20-2017, 12:45 PM
do you need a pool to make ubisoft understand they messed up?

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 12:48 PM
That is the exact response I would expect scrub players that want everything with no effort.
And it is in that spirit you get this effortless response, kthxbai!

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 12:49 PM
@DukeInstinct

So yeah. I'm just going to cut through half of what you replied with because half of the post is not even debating about the class but rather personal jabs back and forth between us both.
I can and do apologize about my attitude. I still feel like my reasons for being as bothered by the way you post are valid. But I could have handled it much better. Anyway. Onto the actual discussion of the character.

I'm just going to link my thread I posted a day or 2 ago. In there I have my thoughts on both heros, who I like more, and how I currently feel like i'd like to see them changed. I'm still doing a bit more thinking on Aramusha since the more I play him the more I want to propose other things. But besides the point. The thread also points out what counters what from Shaman which is what you're looking for since I said she can be countered.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1788532-The-new-heros-and-how-I-feel-what-I-d-do?p=13106576#post13106576

If you want to keep assuming things about me I can't stop you. I don't have some underlining agenda that I try to keep hidden. If you can even look back to the beginning since i've started posting on these forums you can see my various opinions on heros. Which ones I like and which ones I don't. I've always offered feedback on nearly all heros in the roster. At this point I would consider myself to be a Aramusha main. At the end of it all if you really want to understand what I am saying just hear this.

I think that Shaman's kit is what the devs should be aiming for in terms of design. What I mean by that is her kit has mix ups and it has flow. OG kits lack in one or both of these and are often reliant on one trick. I completely understand how painful it is to play an OG hero because they feel completely lacking compared to new hero design. That being said I don't think we should be laying into the developers about Shaman's design or demanding she gets brought down to OG hero level. We want to make the game better by having less defensive meta and more fleshed out kits. So taking her down to OG level design wise would be going backwards design wise in my opinion.

Anyway that is it. If you happen to reply to this with the same kind of attitude that you've been giving me all night i'll probably not respond.

Knight_Raime
11-20-2017, 12:52 PM
Mmm yeah post a video where you fight lvl 3 shaman bot and you dont play shaman yourself knight raime. I want to see how you counter shaman lol.

I never stated that I don't play her. I just don't main her like was it was implied. I pretty much play most of the cast. I pretty much avoid heavies (though I miss playing conq) and I don't play kensei or valk. But that's really it. Playing against a bot wouldn't really prove anything. If you're curious on what counters her I linked my thread that says what counters what in a different reply.
Beyond that i'm not going to reply further to you.

TheLastPandaa
11-20-2017, 02:41 PM
She is not OP. Only newbees that do know how to dodge say that.

#Ironic mode off#

Yes, that b**ch is op as f**ck

Haplo_Bane
11-20-2017, 02:43 PM
Voted NO. I've always been more of a dodger,detector,keep your distance kind of player though. I find her kinda easy to dodge or defect about 70% of the time. Today I've been popping 'em like tic tacs. A good player is more of a struggle. But a good player with ANY character is a struggle. Being ganked by 3-4 players is NEVER pretty,it really doesn't matter who they pick. I think it's the "Once they got ya,they got ya" is the tough part.Similar to the Cent.And you gotta be clinicaly more agressive with her more than anyone else I've noticed. Which isn't my comfortable playstyle,but if you get her at least 1/3 health,go for broke.That's what I reckon. AND DON'T RUN. Huge leap distance. You won't make it.

Justicator
11-20-2017, 02:47 PM
Good points Haplo_Bane, but do you have suggestions for players not really playing assassins, who therefore have no access to deflects? Or dodge attacks? And this is not an ironical question, I genuinely am asking if you have any suggestions for how to combat her low recovery, feints from all sides and abnormal dmg if playing someone who can't be as aggressive as her [ie. another assassin].

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 02:51 PM
Honestly your best bet is picking her up, and watching what other players do in response. Then just repeat what they did

Haplo_Bane
11-20-2017, 02:59 PM
Good point. Ummm, other than non-assassins like Valk,LB,Kensai and Conk that all have some form of dodge attack,she'd be a hell of a lot tougher. With Shugs I've been trying to time my embrace to her landing.It can work but is soooo risky. With the others I've just been super aggressive. But that only seems to work against average players.

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 03:00 PM
Lol why would i want and Die and respawn like other players Will do when i play op shaman?

Tobias96716
11-20-2017, 03:02 PM
After playing and playing against the Shaman...my answer is no...she is fast yes....but very counterable...i actually think she needs a little help....

Haplo_Bane
11-20-2017, 03:04 PM
I don't know,David,I really don't know.

Justicator
11-20-2017, 03:08 PM
Hmm, this doesn't help much. My current strategy is also aggressive play, but that works, as you pointed out, only against average players because the good ones will just go for deflect once they realize what i'm doing. Also, from watching other people play against my team member who plays and comments on her while playing her, most people are struggling, especially the non-assassin classes.

My point stands, a lot of players are struggling with the Class because she is not balanced ATM, weather you want to call that overtuned, overpowered, imbalanced is only a matter of semantics at this point. Even knight_raime suggests 5-6 pretty much needed nerfs to her in his linked post [which i highly suggest reading].

Also, If the original title to this poll was IS SHAMAN CURRENTLY UNBALANCED, i think that the Yes percentage would be even higher.

alustar, please just don't. I won't reply to your posts, please, don't reply to mine. Your opinion is vastly different than mine and you already have a predefined illusion of what kind of a player I am. I have no intention of discussing anything with such a person. Just stop.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 03:10 PM
Lol, Haplo, only other person beside myself and candle I've seen fill out the reason for editing. (Mine usually says: for reasons, or ALL OF THE TYPOS)

vGrimr
11-20-2017, 03:13 PM
i voted yes only because her tracking on jumps and ub bite is far away from ok fix that and she is ok

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 03:15 PM
Hmm, this doesn't help much. My current strategy is also aggressive play, but that works, as you pointed out, only against average players because the good ones will just go for deflect once they realize what i'm doing. Also, from watching other people play against my team member who plays and comments on her while playing her, most people are struggling, especially the non-assassin classes.

My point stands, a lot of players are struggling with the Class because she is not balanced ATM, weather you want to call that overtuned, overpowered, imbalanced is only a matter of semantics at this point. Even knight_raime suggests 5-6 pretty much needed nerfs to her in his linked post [which i highly suggest reading].

Also, If the original title to this poll was IS SHAMAN CURRENTLY UNBALANCED, i think that the Yes percentage would be even higher.

alustar, please just don't. I won't reply to your posts, please, don't reply to mine. Your opinion is vastly different than mine and you already have a predefined illusion of what kind of a player I am. I have no intention of discussing anything with such a person. Just stop.

We call that imbalance. Imbalances happen. They well be fixed.

Overpowered is a term used in gaming to define an experience breaking character or mechanic that totally negates the need for personal skill and improvement. If a character is truly overpowered, anyone regardless of skill could use them to maximum effectiveness.

The simplest example was a bug that made Warden one shot people from an unlocked grab. The exploit was incredibly easy to manipulate, and a such you could mow through and entire team with no effort.

Haplo_Bane
11-20-2017, 03:16 PM
Yea ok. I can understand that. It's just my opinion though. A lot of players don't play like me. They're bound to have different opinions. I was actually expecting the forum to be about the ronin. I've more grief with him.But that's for another thread.

Haplo_Bane
11-20-2017, 03:19 PM
I didn't think anyone but moderators would see it.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 03:20 PM
Lol your loss dood. That's the mark of a weak mind that can't handle conflicting mentalities.
Heh, some people's kids.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 03:23 PM
I didn't think anyone but moderators would see it.

In really glad we can see them. I'm pretty sure that's how Candle and I started talking more. That and a mutual disdain for the more vocal form trolls that one populated.

Justicator
11-20-2017, 03:33 PM
Lol your loss dood. That's the mark of a weak mind that can't handle conflicting mentalities.
Heh, some people's kids.

Nice alustar24, you continue to prove just what you are. Attack and insult others, just like you do on other posts, bringing nothing but cancerous behavior to the table. The only child here is you.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 03:40 PM
Lol your loss dood. That's the mark of a weak mind that can't handle conflicting mentalities.
Heh, some people's kids.

Nice alustar24, you continue to prove just what you are. Attack and insult others, just like you do on other posts, bringing nothing but cancerous behavior to the table. The only child here is you.

Hey kid, you said you were done replying to me. I'm gong to ask that you kindly cease this harassing behavior. I've given you my opinions and you threw them in my face. So if you are really going to not discuss anything with me, don't.
But don't sit there and try and high road anyone and then insult them when from the side lines.

Kthxbai

Klingentaenz3r
11-20-2017, 03:58 PM
Furthermore I will add that it's absolutely crazy that there's been classes needing big time buffs since season 1 and they just can't seem to spare the effort but they can give this class so many options that do so much damage so quickly.

and don't forget that also big old Highlander who honed his skills in preparation finally managed to arrive from the far away lands after 2 seasons is still desperately trying to catch up with everybody. But he is still out of breath and doomed to get shred into grunting pieces

CandleInTheDark
11-20-2017, 04:41 PM
Furthermore I will add that it's absolutely crazy that there's been classes needing big time buffs since season 1 and they just can't seem to spare the effort but they can give this class so many options that do so much damage so quickly.

If you recall, they tried to do that by changing a few numbers with characters, specifically the kensei and orochi and it didn't work. This is why they are motioncapping in readiness for reworks which the conqueror, kensei and berserker will be in the first batch of when they drop. This is why I am excited about the potential in Shaman's kit as if they can do something similar for everyone where using the kit and finishing chains is rewarded that will be a good state of play.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 05:17 PM
If you recall, they tried to do that by changing a few numbers with characters, specifically the kensei and orochi and it didn't work. This is why they are motioncapping in readiness for reworks which the conqueror, kensei and berserker will be in the first batch of when they drop. This is why I am excited about the potential in Shaman's kit as if they can do something similar for everyone where using the kit and finishing chains is rewarded that will be a good state of play.

Peacekeeper might be fun again!?

OLD-R3d.Ra1N
11-20-2017, 05:18 PM
All of this can be done in a week tops

HAHAHAUHAUHAHAHAH
You made me laught... IF they fix one day... It will take several months for sure...
best developers team ever

kbvlcvfkhgc
11-20-2017, 05:25 PM
How can Ubisoft nerf S1 Character Nobushi's Blissful rest feat claiming it too OP at the same time they unleash the Shaman & Aramusha onto us? am i occupying the same reality as these people? i just don't see any connection to reality here in their logic & actions

how can anyone argue that these new characters are not OP? i just don't see how you can argue otherwise given the sheer number of abilities that they have, i spent the weekend watching very high rep OG characters getting taken apart in seconds by these new classes, it wasn't even competitive, new players by their Rep level playing these new classes were DESTROYING very high Rep original roster characters who must of been playing this game for months if not since the beginning, would they be doing that with a lvl 3-5 Conqueror? or a Shukogi? or a Kensei? , no they wouldn't and we all know it,

it came down to this, the team with the most Shaman and Aramusha's won, simple as that,

the fact that anyone can pick up these two new classes and destroy tells me that they are most definitely OP, its the Centurion BS all over again and i'm sick and F@#ing tired of it, this time though i'm unlocking theses Characters as soon as the come on general release and i have the steel i too am going to jump on the bandwagon, opt for EZ mode & start spamming the sh!t out of it, no way am i going to suffer like i did sticking with my OG character all through the Centurion Cancer months,

I really don't understand Ubisofts mentality though, its like they learnt absolutely nothing at all from player feedback over the Centurion fiasco, if i was cynical id think its almost like they don't care, gotta sell as many season passes as possible eh?

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 05:30 PM
^this, oh well i SM going to start playing shaman tomorrow, Will be fun beating rep 40 classes with full gear with My rep 0 zero gear shaman hehe.

kbvlcvfkhgc
11-20-2017, 05:41 PM
^this, oh well i SM going to start playing shaman tomorrow, Will be fun beating rep 40 classes with full gear with My rep 0 zero gear shaman hehe.

ill be joining you too, it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel, i'm going to love coming on here telling everyone to "Just Dodge" or "Git Gud" while i button mash my way to total victory all courtesy of Ubisoft's brilliant character balancing,

first came the PK, then came the Centurion, Now we present to you for your pleasure The Shaman, the bleed of the PK, the Kick of the Centurion, The dodge of the Berserker, The one shot heal of the Shukogi
all the best bits from all the other classes rolled into one, You are a gaming God now, you played this game for 20 minutes but wrecked those who have played since February, OP Character? never!!! its my skill that is bringing me victory, iam a gaming God! fall on your knees and worship me

micisonit
11-20-2017, 06:06 PM
I think Shaman is very strong but not op ! I have seen some good pvp action on youtube , 4v4 mode ! Good teams played against eachother ! In one team they had a shaman , nubushi, Raider and i forgot the last one ! The other team had like almost the same ! Wile watching i never had the feeling that shaman was op she looked well balanced , i have only seen 2 ore 3 bites ! I cant play here since i hate playing females in fighting games so i main zerker oO! Anyway, i remember when everybody cryed about shinobis kick and ranged gb, or cheesy cents , lightning fast glad and so on, but now? Its not a problem anymore , ppl just have to get used to here ! Peace

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 07:28 PM
I'm going to laugh when you buy them and realize they aren't what you think they are. Is not like any of us playing the new characters till the time to practice with the kits before hand.
So if you think your going to purchase a hero, then run into matches and faceroll, I got bad news for you, this isn't WoW.

Baturai
11-20-2017, 07:31 PM
If not op WHat then ?

ohbRRR
11-20-2017, 07:37 PM
Yes, She's OP
No, She's not OP
Dunno how voting works

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 07:58 PM
If not op WHat then ?

Unknown. After a few matches you pick up when to dodge and when to block. This has always been the case you learn, adapt and fine tune your play style, then the new season comes and we have changes with me characters that take time to learn.
I didn't just pick up shaman and start barreling through a trend roster from the gate.
I actually find that she seems to not do nearly as well when it numbered. Which is something I excelled at with my peacekeeper.
But again, that's right now, I'm all learning her kit. As are other players.

CandleInTheDark
11-20-2017, 08:12 PM
I'm going to laugh when you buy them and realize they aren't what you think they are. Is not like any of us playing the new characters till the time to practice with the kits before hand.
So if you think your going to purchase a hero, then run into matches and faceroll, I got bad news for you, this isn't WoW.

Pretty much exactly this, I spent a couple hours against bots first and even then only learned a good deal after fighting players.

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 08:17 PM
Pretty much exactly this, I spent a couple hours against bots first and even then only learned a good deal after fighting players. lol both you guys are former peacekeeper mains that now changed to shaman. ROFL! Shame shame shame on you defending your op Class. Will be fun to play it tomorrow.

CandleInTheDark
11-20-2017, 08:25 PM
lol both you guys are former peacekeeper mains that now changed to shaman. ROFL! Shame shame shame on you defending your op Class. Will be fun to play it tomorrow.

Nope,still a peacekeeper main,I also have warden, conq,valk and nobushi at rep 7, berserker at rep 4, I am pretty well rounded, just saying that people seem to think everyone went in without practising beforehand.

Alustar.
11-20-2017, 08:34 PM
lol both you guys are former peacekeeper mains that now changed to shaman. ROFL! Shame shame shame on you defending your op Class. Will be fun to play it tomorrow.

Yeah I use peacekeeper, highlander, shinobi, and now shaman frequently. Also might dip into aramusha.
Only newbs use "mains".

David_gorda
11-20-2017, 08:34 PM
Nope,still a peacekeeper main,I also have warden, conq,valk and nobushi at rep 7, berserker at rep 4, I am pretty well rounded, just saying that people seem to think everyone went in without practising beforehand.mmm ok, well i post tomorrow after Dueled with shaman if i think he is op or not. Pretty sure its super easy mode same as peacekeeper. I actually won a tournament with My lvl 3 peacekeeper only spaming r1, No zone attacks or anything. Stupid Class on console.

CandleInTheDark
11-20-2017, 08:41 PM
mmm ok, well i post tomorrow after Dueled with shaman if i think he is op or not. Pretty sure its super easy mode same as peacekeeper. I actually won a tournament with My lvl 3 peacekeeper only spaming r1, No zone attacks or anything. Stupid Class on console.

If the opponent turtles, they will struggle because it only takes one mistake playing that way before she is in a position to pressurise you into making more, at the same time if they are aggressive it rewards them because the bleed cancels are short range and she can be knocked out of predator's mercy. Deflect is the only guaranteed bleed (risks eating a heavy), I have found actually finishing a chain being the most consistent, dodge heavy, heavy, bleed light,the light heavy start also works.

There are things that need changing, I have never once said that she is perfectly balanced, but people will find they cannot mindlessly trigger predator's mercy and get it every time. As to the peacekeeper, yeah I use her full kit and I want a rework so that the light spam gets dealt with, but part of getting all the other characters I have in top level gear was about being a PUG 4v4 player, I needed characters for different roles and to be well rounded in terms of I can do the mechanics that different kinds of characters rely on.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-21-2017, 03:00 AM
@DukeInstinct

So yeah. I'm just going to cut through half of what you replied with because half of the post is not even debating about the class but rather personal jabs back and forth between us both.
I can and do apologize about my attitude. I still feel like my reasons for being as bothered by the way you post are valid. But I could have handled it much better. Anyway. Onto the actual discussion of the character.

I'm just going to link my thread I posted a day or 2 ago. In there I have my thoughts on both heros, who I like more, and how I currently feel like i'd like to see them changed. I'm still doing a bit more thinking on Aramusha since the more I play him the more I want to propose other things. But besides the point. The thread also points out what counters what from Shaman which is what you're looking for since I said she can be countered.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1788532-The-new-heros-and-how-I-feel-what-I-d-do?p=13106576#post13106576

If you want to keep assuming things about me I can't stop you. I don't have some underlining agenda that I try to keep hidden. If you can even look back to the beginning since i've started posting on these forums you can see my various opinions on heros. Which ones I like and which ones I don't. I've always offered feedback on nearly all heros in the roster. At this point I would consider myself to be a Aramusha main. At the end of it all if you really want to understand what I am saying just hear this.

I think that Shaman's kit is what the devs should be aiming for in terms of design. What I mean by that is her kit has mix ups and it has flow. OG kits lack in one or both of these and are often reliant on one trick. I completely understand how painful it is to play an OG hero because they feel completely lacking compared to new hero design. That being said I don't think we should be laying into the developers about Shaman's design or demanding she gets brought down to OG hero level. We want to make the game better by having less defensive meta and more fleshed out kits. So taking her down to OG level design wise would be going backwards design wise in my opinion.

Anyway that is it. If you happen to reply to this with the same kind of attitude that you've been giving me all night i'll probably not respond.

I'm noticing a lack of Shaman weaknesses in your reply, Raime. They are not present in the linked post either.

Forsakin1
11-21-2017, 03:28 AM
not op but has some bugs the tracking is just fing insane and range of the pounce way to big, other than gank situations I have little to no problem with killing her. even 1v2 being the other isn't a stun locker or leaping psycho.

Knight_Raime
11-21-2017, 12:04 PM
I'm noticing a lack of Shaman weaknesses in your reply, Raime. They are not present in the linked post either.

I see the issue. I use weakness/counters interchangebly. So I apologize if I ever mentioned weakness specifically. My entire argument was that there are counters to her.
I appreciate that we got back on topic though. Thank you.

SerSine
11-21-2017, 01:12 PM
Yes, She's OP
No, She's not OP

She could barely scratch you with bleed and then pounce on your meat, take away two HP bars and heal her self and receive full stamina again. Her jumping heavy hit has too much range and is faster than an orochi side light, her side spinning heavies are faster than the berserkers and is a heavy. So if she hits with you with it, at low HP it's an execution. Getting ganked by two of them it just like centurion all over again, you can literally not dodge the bash move at close quarters, it's a nightmare. she makes gank spanking impossible. And lol if you're getting ganked, she pins you down while her crazed friends hit you with a heavy just like shugoki, except you can actually see shugokis move coming in, unlike hers, her stance looks like the characters regular stance. If you say she's not OP then she's annoying. If you disagree then I'll see you in hell, causes really stupid, faster than anything heavies and un-dodgable attacks at a certain range. Ridiculous, and I know it's not me cause my reaction time is in the 50ms so I can react just fine.

Alustar.
11-21-2017, 02:04 PM
I love the hyperbole, keep 'em coming!
I feel players should preface how long they have taken aside to practice against her before jumping to the conclusion that you all have. I think that could help the rest of us identify your problems better, since none of you are going to give factual examples, videos or hell, even just ask someone for advice/help.
No instead let's just call for nerfs before they even go live for the general player base. (Which let's not kid or ourselves. We all know that's a factor in this issue, not everyone has access to the new heroes so automatically they should be less effective so no one feels left out.)