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timholt
09-18-2004, 02:28 AM
I know it's been done to death but, I just watched a couple of documentary videos. One featured IL2's straffing and the gun (cannon) flashes were at almost as long as the wing width. The other one had P40's straffing and although not as long as the IL2's, they were a respectable length.
Both were in black and white so I cannot comment on the colour.
Both are on Vol 2 of the Hunters in the Sky Series.

timholt
09-18-2004, 02:28 AM
I know it's been done to death but, I just watched a couple of documentary videos. One featured IL2's straffing and the gun (cannon) flashes were at almost as long as the wing width. The other one had P40's straffing and although not as long as the IL2's, they were a respectable length.
Both were in black and white so I cannot comment on the colour.
Both are on Vol 2 of the Hunters in the Sky Series.

Tully__
09-18-2004, 02:44 AM
Some film stock, particularly black & white film, is very sensitive to infrared light. This often makes muzzle flash appear more prominent on film than it would when observed with the naked eye, as muzzle blast contains a lot of very hot gases.

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Abbuzze
09-18-2004, 06:31 AM
Noone of us ever saw a real muzzelflash, but ALL figherpilots stated that they werenâ´t visible at daylight in flight! The only plane with a real blindingproblem was the 5cm cannonversion of the Me262!
Videos are a bad proof... I remeber that I tried to photograph a artificial lighting in a technical museeum, It was no problem to see it with my eyes as a clear line, but my camera just produced a white picture... but the rooms was definatly not filled with an atomic lighting....

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ouston
09-18-2004, 06:17 PM
A few years ago I watched some Hawks strafe a line of vehicles on the Otterburn training area in Northumberland with 20mm cannon. we were some distance away admittedly but there was very little flash and I feel that the muzzle flash in IL2 must be overdone. It was boggy ground and they did throw up a lot of muck in a pretty spectacular fashion.

Regards

Ouston

lil_labbit
09-18-2004, 06:29 PM
well - I dont even mind but the flashes in il2-fb are lol

just one word

ridiculous

It's just arcade - asked for at that - like trim delay - shutthefup

if they only had not listened....

I HOPE THEY DON'T now....

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T_O_A_D
09-18-2004, 06:52 PM
Well I have Hunted on Fort Leonardwood off and on for years. I have been close enough to the range the A-10's use to have them shoot their guns less than 300 feet above me. All I have seen is Smoke and a serious rumble in my bones.

I've had them roll over and look right at me. I'm easy to see in flame orange while Deer hunting and wave then pull the trigger. I actually think they were trying to make me dirty my pants LOL

I pnly grinned from ear to ear!

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lil_labbit
09-18-2004, 07:12 PM
This game is not made for camera's ...is it... lol

I mean - it's made for us and we are acustomed to the camera and the images ... yep that's true - i have NEVER seen prove either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol

So who's the expert on this...

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[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Sat September 18 2004 at 06:53 PM.]

WUAF_Badsight
09-18-2004, 08:59 PM
** Gun flashes are real **

yea right dude

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Zen--
09-18-2004, 10:25 PM
I used to be an M1a1 tank commander in the US Army. That tank fired a 120mm cannon round which is obviously considerably larger than anything in this game.


Caught on camera the muzzle flash often extends out as long as the vehicle itself...the flash is huge and looks amazing.

Seen by the human eye however and it is a cloud of white smoke only...there is no noticable flash during daylight.

On camera you will see the flash and then the expanding gas cloud come out of the barrel. Combined with debris kicked up from the ground, a smoke cloud will linger for a few seconds. An observer with the naked eye will not catch the flash however, they will only see the resulting smoke cloud.

http://209.163.147.67/zen/files/zen/abram10.bmp

What you see in this photograph is not seen from within the vehicle and you can't see it when outside the tank either, for example standing on the ready line watching the tank fire. I've been open hatch in the tank next to one like this that fired while looking directly at the muzzle...I didn't see the flash, it was too fast.



Camera's catch things that the human eye often cannot distinguish. These weapons do indeed have muzzle flashes like what we have in game...but humans do not see them in daylight. The game models the level of intensity that you would see at night, Oleg has said that in a thread a long time ago, IIRC.


What we have is not what a human will see during daylight, but what you will see at night.

-Zen-

[]_---_[] KITT
09-19-2004, 03:44 AM
Zen-- wrote:
--------------------------------------------------
.........
What you see in this photograph is not seen from within the vehicle and you can't see it when outside the tank either, for example standing on the ready line watching the tank fire. I've been open hatch in the tank next to one like this that fired while looking directly at the muzzle...I didn't see the flash, it was too fast
--------------------------------------------------

Make sure you set your eyes refresh rate to the highest. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
or try not to blink at all at least until the tank fired

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JG52_Helgstrand
09-19-2004, 04:09 AM
The slower the shutter speed on the camera the bigger the muzzle flash will appear.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Helgstrand/MuzzleFlash.jpg

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AdEridanus
09-19-2004, 09:51 AM
It's arts and crafts time! So everyone get out your safety scissors!

Load a film camera with an infrared film using an arbitrary rating of IS0200. F/22 will keep superfulous objects in the image from being lit unneccessarily as the muzzle flash will act as a large flashbulb (which also blows things up). Locate a large caliber gun and take a picture of it firing. For the sake of imagination we will take 2 images. One with a shutter of the entire duration of firing (which will produce an aggregate of the total brightness of the shot, and one high speed shot at the single point of brightest muzzle flash (as a single maximum) that won't incur a reciprocity shift (for kodak IR it would be about 1/1000, which is still too slow, but will do.) Now, load your camera with an orthographic film, which has no light sensitivity after about 560nm. With this "redless" film, repeat the process. Develop both films as close as possible with the lightest dilution possible, so we can get the greatest highlight tonality possible.

Egads! The IR image has an enormous muzzle flash! Like a big, bright shining star it is! So certainly, Oleg is vindicated! But wait! The ortho image has no flash at all! What devilry is this? Is my film over modeled? Undermodeled? More importantly, can I still blame Oleg? I'm so confused. Ah, the perils of silver based photography!

So, what have we learned? Seriously, because I've forgotten.

And this simplified example doesn't take into account the tonal ranges, emulsion densities, shutter sppeds (in the case of video), and ambient light conditions of war era footage. Dust and particulates can also reflect much light under the right circumstances. I could go on and on into the minutae of this, but I have a rule about expending ridiculous amounts of energy on such things. A rule which I've already broken about a paragraph ago. Besides, I don't down planes with flashy muzzles and such. I prefer to concentrate on my bullets. My .50 cal, clean-through-a-tiger-and-enough-velocity-to-bite-the-furher-in-the-bum-bullets.

Sorry, I'll see myself to the door.

Zanusi
09-19-2004, 12:23 PM
Every one knows that the muzzle flash is done to look good (corect?)at night and that the flash is to big in the day time... even Oleg recognise that as stated earler in the thread.

So as I se it the question is not the size of the flash but rather why it is not corected.
It should not bee that hard to set the opacity of the flash to near 100% at day so you just get a hint of flash and 0% at night and a range in between acording to the in game clock.

Lets hoppe the new game engin is better so we can enjoy big nice blinding flashes at night and almost no flashes at daytime.

AlexDavies
09-19-2004, 12:29 PM
i'm not fooled! that's one of them ciggarette lighters that looks like a gun!

http://www.lsfm.org/images/TBolt.jpg

FI WILLIE
09-19-2004, 12:38 PM
I've seen M61 Vulcans in the daytime and all you see is SMOKE trailing down the side of the plane.

I've shot mini-guns at night and it seemed like you could read from the bightness of the flash.

Same with the short barreled 16's too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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LStarosta
09-19-2004, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FI WILLIE:
I've seen M61 Vulcans in the daytime and all you see is SMOKE trailing down the side of the plane.

I've shot mini-guns at night and it seemed like you could read from the bightness of the flash.

Same with the short barreled 16's too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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Yup, you get HUGE fireballs from firing rifle type ammunition in carbine-length rifles. It's pretty spectacular at night, in particular.

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peterm1
09-19-2004, 09:13 PM
I have fired enough heavy calibre weapons to know that muzzle blast and to an extent muzzle flash are partly dependant on (a) burning rate of the propellant owder used, (b) barrel length and (c) size of the propellant charge, in addition to the ambient brightness of the surroundings.

Thus I am prepared to believe that large charges of slow burning powwder fired in a gun with a short barrel (like the 30mm German 108 perhaps) could give big muzzle flashes in the right conditions. I have also seen contemporary photos of IL-2s firing their cannon with very large flashes showing up.

I am not prepared to believe that the same sort of flashes are appropriate for ALL weapons such as 50mm machine guns. I also must say that I do not like the absence of gunsmoke in IL-2. This was a feature in real life and should be reproduced in the Sim (It does come however with a framerate hit so this may be the reason why it was not included.)

I also deplore the very sharply etched smoke trails of the tracers. These look plain weird. (Go to the outside view - F2 - and then hit the firing button.) You will see very dense straight tracer lines that persist for far too long and do not dissipate naturally. Even when the plane flies through the smoke trail it is still intact. This is something which kills my sense of immersion. even sims like Strike Fighters Project get this one right.

WUAF_Badsight
09-19-2004, 11:43 PM
there is no muzzel flash in FB

you all is whining

LOOK! i dont see any & neither do you

**hysterical frenzyed manic rant mode on**
. . . . JUST SHUT UP & STOP COMPLAINING ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! . . . . .
**hysterical frenzyed manic rant mode off**

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Resident_Jock
09-19-2004, 11:52 PM
I'm partial to the image of the 163 being struck by the Death Star superlaser, actually http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Ashoka74
09-20-2004, 03:59 AM
My experience is that when you are shooting from automatic rifle in day, you can see some small and quick flashes, but what you see most is smoke, and when it's cold weather in fall or winter, it is much more worse.

As a former crew member of this baby http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/122mm-rocket_002.jpg
I can tell that when this one is shooting - all wild animals in woods around have enough light to run for their lifes...
I was inside this machine while shooting and also I was watching it maybe 150 meters away on small hillside. Shooting practise was performed while sun was droping down. Last rounds was fired in completely pitch dark. I didnt even see my hand in front of my face. I was standing on my legs and looking at the direction where I saw this launcher last time. When it made tremendous BOOOM SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTT some unknown power yanked me back and down to the ground. I was never ever scared so much again in my life. I almost **** my pants off. Body reaction was just natural and I found myself on the ground, screaming oh my god what the f**k was that... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)
IL2 is just a game, folks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets."
Major Doyle "Wahoo" Nicholson, USMC

Ashoka74
09-20-2004, 04:08 AM
Just have to add, that not only sound knocked me down to ground, but also quick, but in fact it was HUGE flash of light. Anyway I will never forget this in my life and it was just practise and for me now it is just funny flashback.
Don't request real gunnery - be glad it is just a game. Cuz real war machines and war itself is not funny at all.

"There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets."
Major Doyle "Wahoo" Nicholson, USMC

Cragger
09-20-2004, 09:48 AM
Ugh. Rocket motors which as a sustained combustion process are a wee bit different than an inclosed impulse combustion wouldn't you say?

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Zen--
09-20-2004, 03:47 PM
Yes they are a wee bit different, but neat story anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

Ashoka74
09-21-2004, 01:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
Yes they are a wee bit different, but neat story anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup that was my intention - just to share the story.
About guns was my experience with automatic rifle..
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif

"There are only two types of aircraft -- fighters and targets."
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