PDA

View Full Version : Viktor Suvorov



drapis
08-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Hi people,

I've just finished reading Suvorov's book 'The M Day' or however it could be called in Enghlish. The russian original is called 'Den M - Koda nacala vtoraja mirovaja vojna?'

This guy is basically stating that uncle Joe (Stalin) was planning to "liberate" Europe by his own war, and Hitler only preceded him by several days or weeks, maximum.

Many Suvorov's arguments seem pretty logical, but still....

Opinions?

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.

drapis
08-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Hi people,

I've just finished reading Suvorov's book 'The M Day' or however it could be called in Enghlish. The russian original is called 'Den M - Koda nacala vtoraja mirovaja vojna?'

This guy is basically stating that uncle Joe (Stalin) was planning to "liberate" Europe by his own war, and Hitler only preceded him by several days or weeks, maximum.

Many Suvorov's arguments seem pretty logical, but still....

Opinions?

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.

Udidtoo
08-03-2004, 03:25 PM
Since your finished loan me the book and then I'll tell you if I have formed an opinion.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

M.R.Maiornikov
08-03-2004, 03:28 PM
Actually i've read all ofg his books now i'm finishing "Choice" (Vibor).This guy is pretty good.The arguments he uses are very strong.I recommended his books here in forum but people seems to ignore him.They don't like other opinions and facts other than the official communist ones.Well i can't blame them, they've been hearing them for decades now.

Anyways i willing to believe more suvorov's theory than the russian ( stupidity based) beginning of the war.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

horseback
08-03-2004, 07:20 PM
A lot of German wartime sources made similar claims, although it seems to me that if the Soviet war machine was planning to hit Germany on the 4th of July or thereabouts, they would have responded more effectively to the German attacks. Certainly, they should have been better prepared for some kind of fighting.

I think Uncle Joe might have had plans for the Spring of 1942, thinking that the Americans might be added to the mix by then in the West, but it seems to me that his Army and Air Force were very poorly prepared for either an offensive or defensive war in June of 1941.

Still, it sounds like an interesting theory. Is this author published in English?

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Alexander_Seil
08-03-2004, 07:34 PM
http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/index.shtml

Some interesting documents (from the state archives) are there to be read under the "Red army and the Second World War" section. Instant inoculation against any potential conspiracy theories, Communist or otherwise. Only persons able to speak/read Russian need apply...

jensenpark
08-03-2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drapis:
Hi people,

I've just finished reading Suvorov's book 'The M Day' or however it could be called in Enghlish. The russian original is called 'Den M - Koda nacala vtoraja mirovaja vojna?'

This guy is basically stating that uncle Joe (Stalin) was planning to "liberate" Europe by his own war, and Hitler only preceded him by several days or weeks, maximum.

Many Suvorov's arguments seem pretty logical, but still....

Opinions?

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm sorry, is this to infer that Stalin was planning something in late summer of 1939?

http://www.corsair-web.com/thistler/rtfoxint.jpg
Buzz Beurling flying his last sortie over Malta, Oct.24, 1942

-dying non-stop online as silverdart

M.R.Maiornikov
08-03-2004, 09:02 PM
Actually in his book "Last republic" victor suvorov explain that it was planned in july and not in year 1942 like alot of people do think.As for training of troops,his argument is the armament of weapons ( aggressive weapons are not the same as deffensive) like for example KV-2 cannon is a mouvable mortar to destroy bunkers and other stuff like that,as for destroying moving targets this cannon is useless,or another example,why didn't the soviets have anti-air cannons,simply because you don't need them in aggressive war(as planned the enemy aviation suppose to be destroyed).In my opinion ( influenced by suvorov's books) this is the reason why red army performed poorly in 1941.Also from the same book ,another strong argument,the attack was planned to july, all the topographical factories were working on the maps of europe,all the maps were brought to border(to be destributed to soldiers when the offensive starts).but those maps were about europe regions and when Germany attacked those maps became useless (because you won't fight with Austria map in Stalingrad)and they had to be destroyed (alot of german soldiers wrote about finding alot of depots of burned maps near the border)So eventually the red army was left without maps of the fighting areas.Imagine pilots who don't have maps ,imagine armour units,infantry, and so on...

So i'm willing to believe that are the real reasons why Red army suffered heavy losses on the eastern front in 1941(and not the stupidity and incompetence of the Red Army and all those talks about poor quality of the armament)

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Alexander_Seil
08-03-2004, 11:24 PM
If you bother to read a couple of the documents provided on that site, you'll discover that the Red Army in 1941 was simply unprepared for any kind of offensive military operations (although the deployment seemingly suggested that). Now, whatever was the reasoning of the top military and political leaders regarding the foolish linear deployment of practically all military assets to the frontier, they had to be insane to think that the Red Army could actually advance into German territory. If you look at the figures, the army was terribly undersupplied in terms of weaponry and certainly bloated beyond necessity (there were, for example, numerous "airborne" units, few of which were actually prepared to perform airborne operations!). The Red Army performed poorly not because it was not in a position to defend. It did so because the entire command structure was filled with Communist functionaries (the Commissars, that is), which severely restricted operational flexibility of officers in the field. It also did so because Soviet military production was inadequate to fulfill the immediate needs of the military machine and provide for its modernization. Besides, the military was no doubt demoralized by its rather poor performance in the Winter War, add to that a purge several years prior to that.

http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/stratplan-3-41.shtml

This is the overall deployment plan for Soviet military forces for the year 1941. Nowhere in its language is there a single implication that the Red Army was intended to initiate offensive operations against Germany.

http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/stratplan-kievovo.shtml

This is the operational plan for the Kiev Special Military District...scroll down to part VIII. Says right there that the engineers of that Military District were to start construction of several fortification ranges all the way to the Dnieper. Not very constructive for a military force supposedly preparing to iniate offensive military operations, don't you think?

jugent
08-04-2004, 02:33 AM
Victor Suvorov deflected to west in the 70:ths and he was probobly a desinformer. The former Soviet union is very good in the skill of Maskirovka, the noble art of misleading your enemy.
I think that russia today are as good as the former soviet union was in this subject.

Victor told the west about things and facts that he impossible could know about, the "Spetznaz", strategical rocket troops etc etc.

If the Soviet secret service where half as good as the west think they where, no one could know of the wide range of information.

He wrote a earlier book "The liberators" that among other things spoke about the "liberation of tjeckoslowakia"

Everything he writes about must be taken with great amount of sceptisism.

It has always been on the agendo of the "Communist international" to give the liberation of the working class to the world.
The struggle between classes must lead to the revolution, according to Marx theory of class-struggle?
It is like the law of nature.
The Red army was not bad eaven in 1941. But it had its achilles heel, the rigid communication.
Lower commander where thought to wait for orders.
"A cog must remain as a cog if a mashinery shall work as a clockwork" is a theses from that period.
If the commucation broke down the whole system broke down, if you must wait for orders.
A division is only a division if it fights together, if it is separated to regiments, brigades and batallions it hasnt its full strenght.

If a small detachment of tanks supported by airforce is allowed to havoc the rear lines of a division, it wont have any artillery, or supply left.

And if the communications has brooken down, no countermeasures is taken aginst the throughbrake.

And if this force is dividing a division and beat/starve every part, there will be a lot of prisoners. That is "Blitzkrieg". The red army was very good at this way of making war but their best generals where killed by Stalin 1937.(Tuchatjevskij) and the politacally correct commanders didnt dare to use this.

But the "Whermacht" very good at the skill of break through war becaus of their "Auftragstachtik" instead of "Commandotachtik".

Defence is the strongest way of making war but only attach can give a decicive battle (Clausewitz).


The armour of the red army was better than the germans. The artillery was not so good as the germans (precision) but they had more of it.

The mortars where superior, so good so the germans copied the 120mm mortar.
The red army AT-guns was better if you dont count the AAA 88mm as AT.

The average aircrafts where not so good, Oleg might disagree. The I-16, I-153 and the early Laggs where shoot down "an masse" by 109:s.

The soldiers where equal, if you see the average rifleman.

Dont get mislead by the propaganda movies mad by the propaganda. Most of the german infantery-division walked and was equipped with weapons from the polish, french and greek army, and later Soviet armies. They where the "3-7 welle" standards. Many german division got very old soldiers, veterans from the WWI. In 1939 when many division where set up they didnt got full uniforms for all the soldiers. They went to battle against the polish army without any weapons and held as reserves until they got it, from surrendering polish units. (For example whermacht 163,181,196 inf div)

Their supply was horse-drawn and the horses died like flies because of mal-nutrition and sickness.

[This message was edited by jugent on Wed August 04 2004 at 02:12 AM.]

Slush69
08-04-2004, 03:03 AM
Victor Suvorov basically made/makes a good living out of telling first Western intelligence, then the Western public, exactly what they wanted to hear.

His "analysis" of Soviet armour and how it proves their intention to wage a war against Germany (or even all of Europe) is laughable as best. Suddenly cruiser-like tanks like the Bt-5's and Bt-7's become proof that Stalin planned an attack. Now, how come that isn't true for Britain who also believed in the cruiser tank concept?

Stalin probably did anticipate an armed conflict with Germany, I don't doubt that. But an allout assault on Europe in 1941? That's a joke.

Real historians and researchers like Glantz, have thoroughly analyzed Soviet dispositions prior to the war. Basically you don't need conspiracy theories to explain the bad performance of the Red Army. :-)

cheers/EoE

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

249th_Harrier
08-04-2004, 06:10 AM
I am not familiar with Suvarov, but I read a very comprehensive history of the war in the east a while back. The Soviets had good defensive positions which they abondoned to jealously guard the frontier of the new territory they had aquired in their deal with the Nazis. There is evidence that these poorly organized, partially equipped units were in no shape to attack anybody, and both the Soviets and the Nazis knew this. This book stated that the "Soviets planned to attack" is an old conspiracy theory that the Nazis used to say "it was self defense" and the soviets used to say "our army didn't suck THAT much".

drapis
08-04-2004, 04:58 PM
Thx for replies, this forum moves too quickly form me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was telling myself that this guy is too spectacular to be true but

Conspiracy theory lives on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

(goes back to Il-2)

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 12:55 PM
See that's what i'm talking you don't want to consider other side of the story.You think only about the stupidity and incompetence of Red Army.But let me tell you something,every tank in Soviet Union was way more powerful and sofisticated that other nations could offer at that time.So don't tell again the argument about russian stupidity and poor quality of the Red Army,probably all of you who try to discredit Suvorov didn't even picked up his book and didn't even read the first page, shame http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Busysilent1
08-05-2004, 01:49 PM
Read this book also, Maiornikov:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1575000512/ref=ed_oe_h/104-0387189-6238316?v=glance&s=books&st=*

It explains why Soviet Union did not have any plans to attack Germany, at least not in works.

What was in Stalin's head we will probably never will find out.

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 03:55 PM
Busysilent1
You probably didn't realised but any non-russian historian can't and will not publish any other theory about soviet army (other than what Russian side offer)because it can provoce international scandal(if he don't have very strong evidence).Also about why do historians try to silence suvorov's theory is because they made alot of money and became famous.Now they can't say that they were wrong all along.

Also my question is,did you read atleast one book of suvorov's collection?If no then this discussion is over.First read to atleast understand my point of view before jumping to any conclusions.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 04:29 PM
Conspiracy theorists are breeding to damned fast.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 04:32 PM
BaldieJr
Who you call Conspiracy theorists.Man as i told before in this thread,some people are not ready for new theories,but rather like repeating the communist propaganda like bunch of sheeps.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Atomic_Marten
08-05-2004, 04:43 PM
From my point of view (or experience) every different book that u read will give u some more or less useful info about subject, and not the whole truth. Read between the lines is really 'a big deal' in whole that story. And of course, reader must evaluate things for himself also, in order to exclude 'unrealistic' stories or scenarios.

And if that specific reader do all that things that doesn't neccesarily means that he will be succesfull in finding the right conclusion...

And to get back to the subject of this thread, I personally never read any Suvarov book, but I have my opinion on that time. Fact is that Germans succeded more or less in their intention to surprise their opponent, and that is IMO the main reason of their success early in the war. When I look from this point on the eastern front, I see that Germans did not stand any reasonable chance in their intentions to crush Soviet Union(in a brief period of time, like German high command planned because of their previous success with blitzkrieg doctrine). And the proof of that is soon after they made their initial succesess, they begin to lose war. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 04:44 PM
It sound to me like you are the one spouting propaganda my friend.

We were pushed back to our capitol city, but in spirit, we were already in Berlin.

I meant to choose the winning lottery tickets, but I made a mistake, so i'll take my money now. Thanks.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 06:05 PM
Baldie,what nationality you are?Just to know what kind of smartass you are.

Also explain me this,why was all of russian airforce located near the border(if the russians knew the attack is imminent)why not distribute the airforce to different armies who will face the aggressor?

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 06:24 PM
You need one of these t-shirts:

http://www.laturi.org/pic/i_want_to_belive_orginal.jpg

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Haha baldie if you want to be a sheeps and repeat what the croud says be my quest.End of discussion.You probably didn't even read his books(obviously),so what's the point arguing with you.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 07:55 PM
Right. Whats the point arguing with anybody?

I'm so glad we settled that.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

LEXX_Luthor
08-05-2004, 08:21 PM
I read NKVD controlled the construction and location of the airfields right near the German/Soviet border lines. That means Beria I believe. How this effects the Debate I don't know.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 08:58 PM
Actually by orders of Stalin the NKVD wasn't really in controle of army.I believe it was Jukov's orders.Also ,why stalin didn't allow NKVD to take controle,because if did so they will have great amount of power in their hands and who knows what would happen.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

BaldieJr
08-05-2004, 09:13 PM
I like you M.R.Maiornikov. I think you have a lot of good qualities, but more importantly, I think you know a lot about the Red Army's history. Thats cool.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
##############################
I'm not saying you have to visit my site, I'm just saying your a schmuck if you don't.</pre>
http://www.fighterjerks.com

M.R.Maiornikov
08-05-2004, 09:27 PM
Well actually i try reading a book per week about ww2 eastern front (not only suvorov) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But about the construction it's the pure truth.The NKVD was used as guards for the prisoners and GULAGs "personnel" in the construction of important objects in Soviet union.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

WTE_Ibis
08-06-2004, 02:45 AM
I would like to know what would have been the out come of the war without the heroic efforts of the ordinary men and women of "The Motherland" who fought and flew in wondrous aircraft.
I salute them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Ibissix-schmile.JPG
http://premium.uploadit.org/Ibissix/MAKE-MY-DAY.jpg
Join us or oppose us, either way "MAKE MY DAY"

http://203.44.252.25:8080/wte

http://premium.uploadit.org/Ibissix/poli-paint-job.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2004, 04:09 AM
Hello,

This book seems to be a justification for war again the Soviets by Hitler ! Stalin was not a good man but also not a stupid one ! He (Stalin) did know that is army was not in any state to wage war against anybody! The Soviet surverd a near defeat against the Finnish and where far from ready to go to war, the soviet army neaded at least one or two more years to go to war with a chance to win, in 1941 they where in full reorganisation after the slaugther of their command and Stalin knew it! Triyng to justify the invasion of the Soviets by Hitler is like trying to justify is crime against the jews or is invasion of Poland, nertherland, Belgium, France, Ygoslavia, Grece, Danemark, Norway and many other if he could have done so. Hitler is a criminal and Stalin also but a smart one. Saying that Hitler invasion of the Soviets was a preventive strike is like saying that the USA did go to IRAK to remove Saddam from power it is not true they did go for the 3rd oil reserv of the world !

Sensei.

Ps the concentrations camps did exist in Europe during the Nazi period.

[This message was edited by Haddock55 on Fri August 06 2004 at 03:18 AM.]

M.R.Maiornikov
08-06-2004, 04:04 PM
Actually there is a book about finland in victor's collection.You have to keep in mind that the finnish defensive line was building for decades just to stop soviet aggression.Almost all of finland budget went to the construction of the line.Almost every specialist from alot of country said that this line could not be broken.And yet the soviet army broke it in 2 months.Now historians claim that hitler should have see this as major victory and not a weakness of soviet army(remember our politics don't giva a sh*t about people-if the order came you have to execute it no matter what costs you).Only norvegian journals saw the finnish war as a major victory/accomplishment of the Red Army (because they know what it's like to fight in horrible conditions-and what is the -40C cold)

So this is the major fault of hitler to see that as defeat (he didn't realized the simple thing-the Red Army will loose millions of live but will accomplish anything)

P.S Funny but recently they conducted experiments in a british war university-the didin't even entered the winter conditions in computer and still again it gave an answer-it's impossible to break that kind of defensive line without nuclear weapons(tactical)

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Atomic_Marten
08-06-2004, 05:10 PM
Guys I have a quick little question for those of you who may actually know about this: were there any female pilots in the AF's fighting in the WW2? (except from Soviet fem. pilots, they actually scored impressive number of enemy A/C's if we had in mind that they really are 'weakest sex' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ---Budanova over 20 enemy A/C's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif---).

M.R.Maiornikov
08-06-2004, 06:05 PM
Sorry don't know about that man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Usually in USAF women were used as personnel like nurses and stuff.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Zyzbot
08-06-2004, 06:36 PM
The US had women transporting all types of planes but I never heard of any in combat.

clint-ruin
08-06-2004, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Victor Suvorov basically made/makes a good living out of telling first Western intelligence, then the Western public, exactly what they wanted to hear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The disinformation he provided also became a part of the accepted history of neonazis and holocaust deniers. You can find a lot of this with a google search. If you actually check out what it's based on though it comes off as total rubbish. Perhaps a lot more believable while there was nothing to fact-check it with from the soviets themselves.

As was mentioned in other posts, things such as:

The BT7 could travel on coveredc roads with wheels at great speed, but most of the SSSR wasn't accessable via good roads, so OMFG TOTAL SOVIET INVASION OF EUROPE WITH SUPER HIGHWAYS AUTOBAAAAAHN!!!1212!! THERE CAN BE NO OTHER EXPLANATION.

The I-16 type 24/28 had two 20mm cannons and two 7.62mm machine guns, which was, for a short time, some of the heaviest armament going on aircraft at the time. Because for a moment in history, the I-16 had more firepower than almost anything else going, THAT MEANS THE ROOOSKIES WUZ GONNA INVADE BECAUSE THEY HAD SUPER WEAPONS FOR A BIT. EXCELSIOR!@!!1#$!

Just to pick a couple of examples of the underpinnings of this theory which people here might be familiar with. The rest of it - the political/economic sides of the argument - are similarly laughable.

What doesn't quite follow in this line of thinking is puzzling out what half of their entire army was doing on the exact opposite *** end of the country facing off against expected attacks from the south and east staged out of central and east asia. I guess we have to wait for a similar group of japanese proto-fascists to tell us about Stalins plan to annex china and japan which was only averted through the brave pre-emptive attacks of Hitler over in the west.

I think the short version of the conventional wisdom on this runs - war was certainly viewed as being on the cards by both sides, but having to go to war in 1941 wasn't when either Stalin or Hitler had originally thought it to go down. Hitler probably not for another 1-5 years and Stalin for another 5-10 years. To say that Stalin was on the verge of the attack completely clashes with just about every other piece of strategic, economic and military data available on the SSSR at the time.

Just on the topic of the inter-demagog fighting inside of the Soviet government at the time, the whole topic of the fighting between the "world revolution" and "revolution in one country" camps is an interesting read. Something like reading a Tom Sharpe farce novel except the bureaucracy arrange to have each other killed off a lot more often.

On Viktor Suvorov, considering him as a disinformation agent actually goes pretty well with the now-known intelligence goals of the USSR. There was not a single piece of disinformation they ran during their entire stretch that was not aimed at boosting the perceived power and threat of their military in europe. Nixon was not such a great genius that "madman theory" was his unique gift to international affairs.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

M.R.Maiornikov
08-06-2004, 11:30 PM
HAHA pathetic clint-ruin ,from your post it's obvious that you didn't read a book and post your dirty comments,so funny and childish.But if you read suvorov's books you will find alot of facts that were taken from open source and alot of books by the german and soviet veterans.But i quess you're too busy insulting other people,my advice to you before you use stong words atleast know what you are talking about.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

clint-ruin
08-07-2004, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M.R.Maiornikov:
HAHA pathetic clint-ruin ,from your post it's obvious that you didn't read a book and post your dirty comments,so funny and childish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't begin to think what you'll make of his defence of his own work if you found my post disagreeable.

If you like, I could send you some ebooks of his complete collection of works, stripped of the titles and publisher bumpf. Read them, and tell me which ones are his fiction books and which ones are his op-ed histories [polemics]. If you can pick better than 50% right, you can have a wowwypop.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 01:02 AM
If you are talking about suvorov's books don't sweat it,i've read them all.Sure he has some novels but they all were written with some historical background.But suvorov has some historical books also.

P.S.If you don't want to read his books,that's not really my problem,who wants to read them, do so-and so far they have been published in almost every language, so...

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Fehler
08-07-2004, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Haddock55:
Saying that Hitler invasion of the Soviets was a preventive strike is like saying that the USA did go to IRAK to remove Saddam from power it is not true they did go for the 3rd oil reserv of the world !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, STFU.

First off, a lot of good people have died over there. I have friends and relatives that went or are still in Iraq now. You have no idea what is going on there all snuggled up next to your protected P.C. makebelieve world.

Perhaps you should go take a close look at your idol Saddam. There are/were several justifiable reasons this man should have been removed from power, and several thousand lives that were extinguished because of his hatreds. It's easy to talk about numbers, but each number had a mother, a father, sisters, brothers; all that dont speak, eat or breath now because of your idol. Hey, but who cares right? Too bad for them, right? (Too bad you dont know what it is to feel that sort of pain and hopelessness!)

Go do your Bush bashing elsewhere, but before you do, think for a second. What was the price of oil prior to the war? Now, what is it's price? If we took so much oil from Iraq, and that's what the war was about, I sure would like to know who is receiving all the benefit from it.

Go graze on your sheeple grass somewhere else. But dont even begin to disgrace what brave men and women have given their lives to provide for people that were not able to provide for themselves; FREEDOM!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 02:39 AM
Wow people calm down,no need to throw insults at each other.Remember every man has his own opinion (what might be offensive to you doesn't look too much offensive to some other).

Let's not make war here.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

nicli
08-07-2004, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Go do your Bush bashing elsewhere, but before you do, think for a second. What was the price of oil prior to the war? Now, what is it's price? If we took so much oil from Iraq, and that's what the war was about, I sure would like to know who is receiving all the benefit from it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember that some expected oil price to go down (they had not expected such "post-war" resistance and sabotage of oil lines), Rupert Murdoch (if I remember well), whose newspapers were pro-war, was quoted as saying : "the best thing we can get out of that is an oil barrel for 20 dollars"...

I won't talk about it anymore not to start a flame war...



That said, the comparison of WWII in the East with Iraq is rather inadequate, Iraq is today a subject of debate, for Germany and Russia, it should be clear that there was no preemptive german strike nor soviet attack plans, as it has been said, they weren't ready for war nor even alerted, Stalin chose to ignore the german buildup and intelligence warnings, and tried to avoid war at any costs...

Is that the behavior of a man who is about to attack his neighbour?

More so, a new command was progressively being installed and many air force and armour units were either being reequipped and retrained on new material or about to be so, so it was obvious that war couldn't be launched for while...

There are simply no objective reasons to believe the soviets were about to attack, only some justifications of the germans, and some post-war affirmations by a few people...

Do somebody honestly believe that such an enormous plan and the buildup going with it could have been done without any responsible recalling it even after Salin's death and without any documents being found for more than 60 years?

Like I said, nothing to do with Iraq...

[This message was edited by nicli on Sat August 07 2004 at 02:40 AM.]

LeLv30_RedWing
08-07-2004, 03:18 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M.R.Maiornikov:
Actually there is a book about finland in victor's collection.You have to keep in mind that the finnish defensive line was building for decades just to stop soviet aggression.Almost all of finland budget went to the construction of the line.Almost every specialist from alot of country said that this line could not be broken.And yet the soviet army broke it in 2 months.Now historians claim that hitler should have see this as major victory and not a weakness of soviet army[QUOTE]

You talk like Soviets were against Maginot-line or something, LOL. Although there were bunkers and fortifications it was NOT something Soviet invaders could be proud of breaking through in only 2 months.

Are you sure this Suvorov is not writing books under name Sven Hassel? Historical facts are on the same level..

NegativeGee
08-07-2004, 03:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeLv30_RedWing:

Are you sure this Suvorov is not writing books under name Sven Hassel? Historical facts are on the same level..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Oh and, to the guy who mentioned Bush:

http://www.doomsayer.***it.net/flamewar.jpg

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Günther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

nicli
08-07-2004, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Oh and, to the guy who mentioned Bush:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I will edit my post, I don't want it to degenerate into a flame war, but I can't help answering when I see people speaking as if being against the war was a crime...

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 07:37 AM
If you examine closely you will find that the finnish defensive line is is way overdone than the crappy maginot-line.
Man the stupidity of some really pisses me off.Read the ****in articles about it first the post."bunkers and fortifications" what a ****in ******.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

[This message was edited by M.R.Maiornikov on Sat August 07 2004 at 06:53 AM.]

Kerranger
08-07-2004, 08:02 AM
Maiornikov, you are a troublemaker.

Metallicaner
08-07-2004, 08:17 AM
yeah right, Stalin would have "liberated" Europe, making it the same kind of bull**** like it was before

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 08:34 AM
Karrenger sorry if you think so but i just had to say what i said because that guy really insulted me-thousands and maybe mellions of lives were lost in finland and that ****** comes here and say like it was easy.

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

LeLv30_RedWing
08-07-2004, 09:56 AM
You are saying Mannerheim-line was stronger than Maginot-line and after that you say Soviets lost maybe millions of people in Winter War.....and then you call ME ******?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I won´t post in this thread anymore, temptation to humiliate you in this matter is too strong...but I give some numbers before I stop reading this thread: casualties for Finland were 21396 KIA, 1434 MIA and 43557 wounded in Winter War.

You say maybe "millions" were lost in Finland. ..so that means a lot of Soviet casualties. Was your source Suvorov again in this matter?

Population of Finland was way under 5 millions on those days...killing millions of enemies must be because of that deadly Mannerheim-line.

****** has left the building...

[This message was edited by LeLv30_RedWing on Sat August 07 2004 at 09:06 AM.]

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 12:53 PM
First of all,consider the conditions of fighting(the conditions in France are not the same a s in funland-i never see a -35C cold in france),second the maginot line can be out flanked,the Mannerheim-line can't be,third any army can use tanks against maginot line( plain terrain),against finnland defensive line it's impossible because of forests and snow,Forth i consider finnish soldiers a better defenders than the french ones ( not to upset people here) So tell me which i the hardest to break.

As for statistics of soldiers here's a site:http://www.silentwall.com/WinterWar.html

they clearly show your numbers are way down:72 408 killed , 16 208 missing, 180 863 wounded,the Russians had concentrated 957 675 men in the frontline against Finland.

So who humiliates who here my frined...



------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

Kerranger
08-07-2004, 01:57 PM
People tend to change the numbers, depending whether they are bitter or not. The real numbers usually are 20 000 - 40 000 Finnish losses, and 400 000 - 1 000 000 soviets. Also, I read that the attacking force was 1,5 million men in strength.

I once saw a russian document about the Mannerheim line. They presented structures that were not even there back then. It was merely a line of holes, trenches and some concrete, not to mentiopn the stupid placement of some of the bunkers, i.e in front of open fields. These were called deathtraps. The concrete was less thick than normal concrete, and it didnt have steel reinforcements either. Nothing superior. I get the feeling this line is being made bigger than it was. Its the men that count, not the machinery or fortifications.

M.R.Maiornikov
08-07-2004, 02:34 PM
kerranger ,it was a russian document right? That's why we suffered heavy casualties.
Here's a good site about it : http://www.mannerheim-line.com/

go to main page and click on blue sectors you will see what it really looked like.

Or another one: http://www.nortfort.ru/mline/plan_e.html

Or here's another one : http://www.winterwar.com/M-Line.htm

alot of good information there: be sure to check legend of the line section.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

[This message was edited by M.R.Maiornikov on Sat August 07 2004 at 01:43 PM.]