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I_loveMemes
11-11-2017, 11:33 PM
So far I've seen a lot of shaman gameplay and one thing i personally don't like (I believe a lot of ppl don't like it) is her bite ability because is an unblockable ability and does almost 3 bars damage i believe is too much for an ability that you can't avoid or if you can it will be very difficult. One way this can be fixed imo is when she uses this ability to have an hp penalty if she misses like shugoki or decrease the damage this ability does. now i won't speak about the rest of her abilities because I can't judge until i play and the only reason I'm saying about the bite is because i can clearly see is op.

Pain-Seeker
11-12-2017, 12:45 AM
It rly does seem OP . Fast unblockable,unparriable that does **** ton of dmg, heals you and can be canceled.I ve seen dude dodge it and you will prob get a free GB out of it but the ration of risk/reward seems unbalanced . Shugokis demon embrace take a lot of hp if you miss it and its a lot slower.

CandleInTheDark
11-12-2017, 12:55 AM
It rly does seem OP . Fast unblockable,unparriable that does **** ton of dmg, heals you and can be canceled.I ve seen dude dodge it and you will prob get a free GB out of it but the ration of risk/reward seems unbalanced . Shugokis demon embrace take a lot of hp if you miss it and its a lot slower.

Demon's embrace is also a one hit kill in certain circumstances. As I said in another post, not saying it doesn't have the potential to be op and if it is, even as someone playing her I would call that out as I have with my main, but until we see how it plays in the hands of the main not top 1% tier population, it is too early to saying anything one way or the other.

Here is the main thing, you need to be bleeding, if you are bleeding and a shaman dodges forward or back that's an indication you need to dodge, if they are trying to close for a gb, well you don't want them close for heal on attack in any case, it might be that if you know it is coming, someone trying to spam it is going to take a punish.

Pain-Seeker
11-12-2017, 01:08 AM
Demon's embrace is also a one hit kill in certain circumstances. As I said in another post, not saying it doesn't have the potential to be op and if it is, even as someone playing her I would call that out as I have with my main, but until we see how it plays in the hands of the main not top 1% tier population, it is too early to saying anything one way or the other.

Here is the main thing, you need to be bleeding, if you are bleeding and a shaman dodges forward or back that's an indication you need to dodge, if they are trying to close for a gb, well you don't want them close for heal on attack in any case, it might be that if you know it is coming, someone trying to spam it is going to take a punish.

From what i ve seen shes got so many ways to cancel attks into bleeds that even one parry might cost you your life .Also not sure how fast is it but since its cancelable and as you said it might be possible we have to dodge early she might even get a 50/50 with it. Aramusha on the other side seems pretty underwhelming. Mostly the full block stance follow up . With him its the other way around . Since you cant CGB and need to time it down the reward you get for it is so stupid it will never be used against someone who can feint and actualy block and CGB after blurry effect . Kick is only usefull with wall right behand your enemy. The light does so little dmg its not worth the risk . Top heavy is ******** and side unblockable pretty much as well .Not to say he doesnt even have heavy after GB . Dont want to call devs names before it all goes live but it seems like they fked it up again with one strong and other underwhelming character

TSCDescon
11-12-2017, 01:14 AM
She's op. Anyone that doesn't believe that can fk off. Quit trying to protect an op character for your own enjoyment.

Ubisoft should stick to single player games. They are bad at making multiplayer fighting games.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-12-2017, 01:24 AM
It's weird to me how the developers are so willing to make bold and likely OP moves for a character right off the bat based off the testing of only the dev team, but then take ages to "fix" it when there's a much larger pool of testers (the players) for months and it's quite clear it's OP.

Pain-Seeker
11-12-2017, 01:28 AM
It's weird to me how the developers are so willing to make bold and likely OP moves for a character right off the bat based off the testing of only the dev team, but then take ages to "fix" it when there's a much larger pool of testers (the players) for months and it's quite clear it's OP.

This is what iam afraid of . I dont care if they realese the characters in not so balanced state , one way or another. The thing that bugs me is that it will take months to actualy change it ...

UbiInsulin
11-12-2017, 01:42 AM
Thanks everyone for sharing your feedback on the Shaman. She definitely seemed to be strong in the little we saw of her during the event today, but we'll be eager to see your feedback once she's in the live environment. The team is trying to create interesting characters that will be exciting to play, so naturally they do get a lot of hype before release.

TSCDescon
11-12-2017, 01:55 AM
Thanks everyone for sharing your feedback on the Shaman. She definitely seemed to be strong in the little we saw of her during the event today, but we'll be eager to see your feedback once she's in the live environment. The team is trying to create interesting characters that will be exciting to play, so naturally they do get a lot of hype before release.

Interesting? You're joking right?

Well I got a good one for yah.

Make a character that can literally go invisible with a automatic crossbow that can shoot indefinite bolts that causes bleeding. This sounds very interesting.

Pain-Seeker
11-12-2017, 02:08 AM
Thanks everyone for sharing your feedback on the Shaman. She definitely seemed to be strong in the little we saw of her during the event today, but we'll be eager to see your feedback once she's in the live environment. The team is trying to create interesting characters that will be exciting to play, so naturally they do get a lot of hype before release.

The thing is we arent satating these things based on the event today but more on the videos other youtubers/streames have put out . They actualy know how to play the game and since its a duel we see their strenghts and weaknesses a lot better than in chaos called dominion.Also these characters are rly insteresting but it doesnt mean you have to give one character every tool avaliable in the whole game plus something more . I hope the team actualy listened to players that have been given early acces and are already working on something rather than waiting month for data

Vakris_One
11-12-2017, 04:07 AM
From what i ve seen shes got so many ways to cancel attks into bleeds that even one parry might cost you your life .Also not sure how fast is it but since its cancelable and as you said it might be possible we have to dodge early she might even get a 50/50 with it. Aramusha on the other side seems pretty underwhelming. Mostly the full block stance follow up . With him its the other way around . Since you cant CGB and need to time it down the reward you get for it is so stupid it will never be used against someone who can feint and actualy block and CGB after blurry effect . Kick is only usefull with wall right behand your enemy. The light does so little dmg its not worth the risk . Top heavy is ******** and side unblockable pretty much as well .Not to say he doesnt even have heavy after GB . Dont want to call devs names before it all goes live but it seems like they fked it up again with one strong and other underwhelming character
Yeah, this is my fear as well. The Shaman has a much more befuddling and better mixup game than the Aramusha who seems to only have a mixup game for the sh*** and giggles of it. She can cancel most of her attacks into a super fast stab that applies bleed, which then serves to open up her blood trance game. A move that can only be countered by dodging it. He on the other hand can cancel his attacks for an attempt at some one off damage but all of them can be blocked or in the case of a slower heavy/unblockable, parried. In short his mixup game is more conventional in the sense that it leads to nowhere except getting a hit in - pretty much like the Kensei if he absorbed the speed of a PK. Whereas her mixup game opens you up for an even more dangerous mixup game if/when you get stabbed with bleed - which pretty much makes her a PK if the PK had a cutscene move added to her mixup game.

Chances are that fighting a Shaman at high level will become a guessing game almost from the word go and progressively get more dangerous as you eventually guess wrong and get nailed with a bleed. Then begins the guessing game as to when she will fake out an attack into a forward dodge to do a Dracula or fake out her attempt into a Dracula pounce and gets you with a GB instead when you guess wrong and dodge. Then she gets a heal for hitting you. So she's going to make you guess for a lot of the stuff that she throws out and when you're bleeding no matter what you do if you make a mistake she will either:

a) heal herself with your salt

or

b) love bite you for a ton of damage

Meanwhile the Aramusha gets a really poor reward from getting an all-block timed correctly. A kick, a stun or a light attack. The kick is pointless since if you parried them you could get a GB and throw which has the same effect. A stun for timing your all block is a waste of a move considering that characters like the Cent and Gladiator can get a stun from neutral with their bash attacks. And a light attack? You can get that and more from a parry. Seriously, his reward for this move is worse than what assassin's get from a deflect which is similarly about timing. He might as well parry and get a decent punish rather than risk being guard broken by everyone that knows how to feint. I can already see the Aramusha having to compromise and shelve some of his kit whereas the Shaman looks like she will be able to use everything in her kit even when everyone learns what she can do. I predict that she will become a very competitive character whereas the Aramusha will be a novelty like the Highlander but not really viable at high level/competitive play.

Maybe it's too early to tell and I really hope that I am wrong because I really, really want a strong Samurai hero goddammit! But at this early glance it's starting to look like the devs have once again created a stud and a dud ala the Gladiator when compared to the Highlander. Sure, the Highlander is still better than most of the OG roster but he's not competitive when compared to the Glad and some of the other top tier characters and he was never built to be anything more than a novelty. Such, I fear, might be the fate of the Aramusha as well and that would be depressing if it turns out to be true.

I really hope that I am wrong and that both new characters will be competitive at high level play without either of them being OP.

Devils-_-legacy
11-12-2017, 04:23 AM
I gota feeling the cries for nurf will be after one day lol

Vakris_One
11-12-2017, 06:52 AM
Just watched a bunch of videos from Havoc, Spliced, Zero Craic and Flookerson doing fights with the new characters. Holy ****!

Shaman can feint her body slam/Dracula pounce. The body slam pushes you quite a long distance and can cause a wall splat. She gets the body slam/Dracula pounce guarranteed after a GB throw AND she can get you with the neck bite when you are already on the ground. Mother of Viking Jesus! You can build a whole team around her blood trance. 1 Nobu, 1 PK and 2 Shamans. Apply bleed and watch the salty fireworks. You'll have the Shaman just roaming the battlefield eating people and gaining heals from it, she won't even need to cap a point for a quick heal just go eat someone who can't react to you instead.

They've given her way too much with this thing. Get rid of either the wall splat, the guarrantee on a fallen opponent, or guarranteeing it from a GB otherwise there's just too many options for her and no escape for her opponent. As for the team modes... the way she is built around this new mechanic... say hello to the new cancer: 'The Shaman Cannibal Hoe Down'

The Aramusha is just another fighter. Nothing special. He's essentially everything the Kensei should have been, which truly makes the Kensei's existence in the game pointless now, rework and all - I mean why would you want two characters that do almost the exact same things in the same faction? Aramusha is the better Kensei. Job done. Delete Kensei. Rework is a waste of time now.

The Shaman on the other hand introduces a whole new mechanic to the game that feels like she came from a single player game that doesn't have to worry about being balanced. And to be honest you might as well delete Beserker as well because she is the better Beserker. No rework will make Zerker as good as her without giving him a unique mechanic of his own. Same goes for Kensei's rework when the Aramusha is already the better Kensei. Unless they plan on giving Kensei a new unique mechanic all his own he's only ever going to fill the same role as Aramusha.

The Shaman needs a serious balance pass though. Now that I've seen her in action I am certain of that. She's going to make pre-nerf Centurion look like a choir boy. And the Aramusha could use a unique trait to call his own because he's just another average fighter. Nothing special about him other than his aesthetics.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2017, 07:55 AM
Her bite does a bar and a half's worth of damage. It will do more just like any other attack that lands on an OOS opponent.
Her heal from basic attacks during bleed is very minor. The health back on bite is a full bar.
I wouldn't call her OP. Her pounce/bite can be countered with a free GB if dodged on certain characters or just dodge attacked.
The pounce itself is fast but it has to be done at the end of a forward or backwards dodge. Just like shins kick animation is fast but you have to do the animation of the dodging first giving ample time to read it.

If she's going to get nerfed within the first week or 2 (which I see happening because people seem to overreact often) I would suggest taking the bite damage down to a bar maybe a bit less. And remove the wall splat on the pounce. That should be used mainly to give you space. if a person is close enough to some kind of cover anyway you get 2 free lights without the splat which is good enough.
I'm for sure going to get lynched for this but this kind of design is what the devs SHOULD be aiming for. This is what a kit should be. Lots of mix ups in general or being able to flow most of your kit together.

The other thing i'm sure people are going to freak about is her 400ms any direction bleed attack that can happen from: zone, chain finisher, raw heavy. The bleed itself is minor damage. and all it does is enable her bite and heal on hit. As i've already mentioned her health on hit is small. And since you know someone is going to attempt to go for a bite you can bait it. Yes she can miss and do it again or dodge and do something different. But in both of those instances you can easily GB them mid dodge or dodge attack them.

This character is absolutely going to force players to read instead of sitting back and waiting to see something a mile away. And because of that alone people will call her broken and want her nerfed into the ground instead of using her as the standard to improve hero design as a whole. I REALLY hope the devs play smart here and don't ruin her. I'm genuinely impressed how far they've come on hero design and I really would hate it getting spoiled over a bunch of crying.

vgrimr_J
11-12-2017, 10:19 AM
already crying OP OP OP lmao.

SammyCannon
11-12-2017, 12:29 PM
I guess we will see. But the shaman for certain looks absolutly cancerous for consoles...
Aramusha atleast looks cool(Ninja scroll ftw).
I can see right away that I never will be playing shaman.

CandleInTheDark
11-12-2017, 12:32 PM
Mother of Viking Jesus! You can build a whole team around her blood trance. 1 Nobu, 1 PK and 2 Shamans. Apply bleed and watch the salty fireworks. You'll have the Shaman just roaming the battlefield eating people and gaining heals from it, she won't even need to cap a point for a quick heal just go eat someone who can't react to you instead.

Yeah I can see how it will be annoying if that team comes up but that team also will likely find it difficult to boost zones and ultimately win games, I doubt we would see this setup in many groups because you would likely have one of shaman, peacekeeper or gladiator. Also speaking as a peacekeeper, I need kills to get my feats up, if I see a shaman waiting to pounce anyone I bleed without getting stuck in otherwise then I am not bleeding anything around them, might be short sighted of me but they are already not being a team player and it annoys me enough when people decide they just have to execute an enemy bleeding to death. As for healing right there, you can say the same about shugoki (if you are saying shaman can pounce from off screen so can shugoki) or with a level one feat nobushi (which we saw to great effect yesterday), warden, conqueror and I suspect raider and kensei in the soldier zone, maybe not when in battle since they need to kill soldiers but they can win whatever fight they are in and be full health pretty quickly. (I realise that both of our examples are dominion specific, outside of that the others are relying on a tier 3 feat but the cooldown isn't huge).

In 4v4 as a whole, players will need situational awareness, but there are a few warning points that should help an aware player.

A there is a shaman on the other team
B you are bleeding
C there is a snarl from offscreen.

If A, B and C are true,dodge roll, supposing they don't have stealth, the rader tells you where the attack is coming from.If you are actively aware of the radar you might well be looking at her in which case you get all the warning you do 1v1.

Prefacing this as I have other posts with it might well be that it is op and needs dealing with but there is something that people who have watched the videos are not acknowledging, and that is that with a day of filming, spliced could not only read, dodge and guardbreak the shaman pounce with the visual and audio cues but he dodged while out of stamina. https://youtu.be/zLg4OcFVI-A?t=200 So my question is in two weeks after release will most people be able to do this? I remember three months ago there was a panic about how the gladiator skewer unblockable would be massively op because it could come from anywhere at any time, the reality now is you rarely see them because so many of them get parried. That does leave other options, if they need to remove something I would say the wallsplat, on pounce,as Raime said they get double light anyhow, then the floor pounce if still needed. They won't get rid of it off gb in my opinion because that is a stated part of her kit and was intentional in being so, it means people are going to need to get their cgb game down but I have had games where even from the heavy feint people manage that every time during a game.


I'm for sure going to get lynched for this but this kind of design is what the devs SHOULD be aiming for. This is what a kit should be. Lots of mix ups in general or being able to flow most of your kit together.

That is probably part of the issue people have,not everyone has a kit like that and I certainly agree it is something the devs should aim for in the reworks and any character going forward. As to your point over the small bleed damage, that is a point, that will run down fairly quickly unless they chain a few or someone else gets in on the bleed, regular dodging or the escape roll might both be good means of running the bleed clock down.

Vakris_One
11-12-2017, 04:09 PM
Her bite does a bar and a half's worth of damage. It will do more just like any other attack that lands on an OOS opponent.
Her heal from basic attacks during bleed is very minor. The health back on bite is a full bar.
I wouldn't call her OP. Her pounce/bite can be countered with a free GB if dodged on certain characters or just dodge attacked.
The pounce itself is fast but it has to be done at the end of a forward or backwards dodge. Just like shins kick animation is fast but you have to do the animation of the dodging first giving ample time to read it.

If she's going to get nerfed within the first week or 2 (which I see happening because people seem to overreact often) I would suggest taking the bite damage down to a bar maybe a bit less. And remove the wall splat on the pounce. That should be used mainly to give you space. if a person is close enough to some kind of cover anyway you get 2 free lights without the splat which is good enough.
I'm for sure going to get lynched for this but this kind of design is what the devs SHOULD be aiming for. This is what a kit should be. Lots of mix ups in general or being able to flow most of your kit together.

The other thing i'm sure people are going to freak about is her 400ms any direction bleed attack that can happen from: zone, chain finisher, raw heavy. The bleed itself is minor damage. and all it does is enable her bite and heal on hit. As i've already mentioned her health on hit is small. And since you know someone is going to attempt to go for a bite you can bait it. Yes she can miss and do it again or dodge and do something different. But in both of those instances you can easily GB them mid dodge or dodge attack them.

This character is absolutely going to force players to read instead of sitting back and waiting to see something a mile away. And because of that alone people will call her broken and want her nerfed into the ground instead of using her as the standard to improve hero design as a whole. I REALLY hope the devs play smart here and don't ruin her. I'm genuinely impressed how far they've come on hero design and I really would hate it getting spoiled over a bunch of crying.
I get that she is a fun and interesting character to play but she will be unpleasant to fight against. That's been a problem since the Season 1 heroes. The devs are capable of making new characters that are great fun to play but annoying to fight against even in a mirror match. I have no problem with her becoming the new benchmark for how well designed every hero should be but the reality is that the devs always pick a single hero to focus a new poweful mechanic around and the other ends up being given leftovers. And the OG roster just sit there getting more obsolete with every Season.

In the very least shouldn't the Aramusha also get an interesting and usuable new mechanic as well? She needs a balance pass in my opinion but the Aramusha needs a trait to call his own otherwise he's basically the Kensei's replacement, which leaves the Kensei without a role and the Aramusha as a functional but otherwise completely average fighter.

CandleInTheDark
11-12-2017, 04:26 PM
I get that she is a fun and interesting character to play but she will be unpleasant to fight against. That's been a problem since the Season 1 heroes. The devs are capable of making new characters that are great fun to play but annoying to fight against even in a mirror match. I have no problem with her becoming the new benchmark for how well designed every hero should be but the reality is that the devs always pick a single hero to focus a new poweful mechanic around and the other ends up being given leftovers. And the OG roster just sit there getting more obsolete with every Season.

In the very least shouldn't the Aramusha also get an interesting and usuable new mechanic as well? She needs a balance pass in my opinion but the Aramusha needs a trait to call his own otherwise he's basically the Kensei's replacement, which leaves the Kensei without a role and the Aramusha as a functional but otherwise completely average fighter.

I definitely agree with that as well, if they are handing out special mechanics to one and they are reworking characters both new ones should get something. It is going to be a matter of seeing how viable the allblock moves truly are in the hands of the general player base (just as I have said with judging if the pounce is op) but I definitely do see the argument there, the last thing we want is the OG to get reworks and half the DLC to be left behind. All characters should be equally viable when all is said and done.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2017, 08:47 PM
I get that she is a fun and interesting character to play but she will be unpleasant to fight against. That's been a problem since the Season 1 heroes. The devs are capable of making new characters that are great fun to play but annoying to fight against even in a mirror match. I have no problem with her becoming the new benchmark for how well designed every hero should be but the reality is that the devs always pick a single hero to focus a new poweful mechanic around and the other ends up being given leftovers. And the OG roster just sit there getting more obsolete with every Season.

In the very least shouldn't the Aramusha also get an interesting and usuable new mechanic as well? She needs a balance pass in my opinion but the Aramusha needs a trait to call his own otherwise he's basically the Kensei's replacement, which leaves the Kensei without a role and the Aramusha as a functional but otherwise completely average fighter.

I agree it will be unpleasant for most I did elude to that. She's going to force people to learn how to play better and people don't enjoy being forced. I wouldn't say each season has made OG heros obsolete. pk and warlord are 2 non arguable characters that have been relevant since launch. I would say a better statement would be each season has shown how weak OG kit design was.

Aramusha is a damn beast that people are underestimating. I'll link a video to show you exactly what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaMr8wsZTM

I know it's 7 minutes long but please watch. I encourage anyone who thinks he won't be good to watch this. This video only covers his constant combo he can do. It makes no mention of his perfect guard which is amazing. Or the fact that his dodge attack can be delayed and even canceled. If you wanted to give him one unique "thing" that's really him its his ability to feint and still continue his combo. No other hero can do that.

I think people are writing him off purely because he's not as flashy as shaman and that he can't get a raw heavy from a GB. (due to his recovery timing.) Aramusha seems to be built around mastering mind games and played differently compared to your standard bait, feint, parry style most are used to. This reminds me of last season. and a little of the second season. Meaning that both centurion and gladiator did not appear to be flashy or have one giant obvious thing that stuck out and made people think they were strong. Shinobi and highlander on the other hand did and thus people flocked to them first. Same is the case of shaman and aramusha.

Shaman is flashier. Thus it's what everyon's been focusing on. Aramusha is less flashy and more technical. His strength isn't obvious to the glancing eye. Only unlike season 2 and 3 there isn't a major imbalance between the 2 heros. In my opinion they are about even in terms of power. Shaman's power is just more aggressive and pressure based. Where as Aramusha's is more counter attack/good read based.

Anyway to end my rambling...I'm not saying shaman isn't really strong. She is. I already proposed 2 nerfs that would be the best place to start without hurting her overall. Most of her complaints are from pounce/bite. So removing splat and nerfing bite damage seems fair. I don't want to suggest any other nerfs till i've played as her. Because if i'm 100% honest it seems like both heros can be countered pretty easily by resting your guard in top and reacting to the rest. Like raider. Plus I need to know how far along animation wise certain things can be canceled into other things. Only information I have here so far is pounce/bite can only be canceled into something else very early. Basically like storm rush.

SenBotsu893
11-12-2017, 09:25 PM
I agree it will be unpleasant for most I did elude to that. She's going to force people to learn how to play better and people don't enjoy being forced. I wouldn't say each season has made OG heros obsolete. pk and warlord are 2 non arguable characters that have been relevant since launch. I would say a better statement would be each season has shown how weak OG kit design was.

Aramusha is a damn beast that people are underestimating. I'll link a video to show you exactly what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaMr8wsZTM

I know it's 7 minutes long but please watch. I encourage anyone who thinks he won't be good to watch this. This video only covers his constant combo he can do. It makes no mention of his perfect guard which is amazing. Or the fact that his dodge attack can be delayed and even canceled. If you wanted to give him one unique "thing" that's really him its his ability to feint and still continue his combo. No other hero can do that.

I think people are writing him off purely because he's not as flashy as shaman and that he can't get a raw heavy from a GB. (due to his recovery timing.) Aramusha seems to be built around mastering mind games and played differently compared to your standard bait, feint, parry style most are used to. This reminds me of last season. and a little of the second season. Meaning that both centurion and gladiator did not appear to be flashy or have one giant obvious thing that stuck out and made people think they were strong. Shinobi and highlander on the other hand did and thus people flocked to them first. Same is the case of shaman and aramusha.

Shaman is flashier. Thus it's what everyon's been focusing on. Aramusha is less flashy and more technical. His strength isn't obvious to the glancing eye. Only unlike season 2 and 3 there isn't a major imbalance between the 2 heros. In my opinion they are about even in terms of power. Shaman's power is just more aggressive and pressure based. Where as Aramusha's is more counter attack/good read based.

Anyway to end my rambling...I'm not saying shaman isn't really strong. She is. I already proposed 2 nerfs that would be the best place to start without hurting her overall. Most of her complaints are from pounce/bite. So removing splat and nerfing bite damage seems fair. I don't want to suggest any other nerfs till i've played as her. Because if i'm 100% honest it seems like both heros can be countered pretty easily by resting your guard in top and reacting to the rest. Like raider. Plus I need to know how far along animation wise certain things can be canceled into other things. Only information I have here so far is pounce/bite can only be canceled into something else very early. Basically like storm rush.

so huntress forces enemys to play better while huntress herself doesnt need to put any effort into a win...
i hope that things will change for the live version of the game because as of now its like this:

from what i have seen i can say that ashamura chain is basically a berserker but inferiour because:

- no hyperarmor
- less damage
- and he has not the same stamina pool that berserker has

his all block is also not really rewarding. heavy is not guaranteed from a full block. and it has to be timed similar to hidden stance but makes you helpless against gb.

Huntress on the other side has been packed with everything the devs could think off and then added some more.

its childs play to apply bleed. wich in turn gives you autoheal.
bleed also unlocks her Demon Embrace 3.0: fast, tracking, long distance, no selfinflicted damage upon miss but rather follows up into the heavy hold wich again leads into the pounce.
also she got warlord headbutt 3.0: enhanced distance, better knock back, cancalable into gb

this alone tells you how easy it is to win with her. but it doesnt stop there.

heavy recovery can be canceled into dodge
500 ms evade heavy attack for a whopping 25 damage
easy access to unblockables via left heavy finishers
also seen her unlock the lvl2 25% damage reduction feat. (why that on the assasin and not on the "Tank hybrid" Aramusha?)

you dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how unbalanced these 2 new characters are

IesooMI
11-12-2017, 10:04 PM
So other than heal she has tools Glad has? We've dealt with him all season and it hasn't been a problem. Oh boo hoo another character that excels at cracking turtles.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2017, 11:05 PM
so huntress forces enemys to play better while huntress herself doesnt need to put any effort into a win...
i hope that things will change for the live version of the game because as of now its like this:

from what i have seen i can say that ashamura chain is basically a berserker but inferiour because:

- no hyperarmor
- less damage
- and he has not the same stamina pool that berserker has

his all block is also not really rewarding. heavy is not guaranteed from a full block. and it has to be timed similar to hidden stance but makes you helpless against gb.

Huntress on the other side has been packed with everything the devs could think off and then added some more.

its childs play to apply bleed. wich in turn gives you autoheal.
bleed also unlocks her Demon Embrace 3.0: fast, tracking, long distance, no selfinflicted damage upon miss but rather follows up into the heavy hold wich again leads into the pounce.
also she got warlord headbutt 3.0: enhanced distance, better knock back, cancalable into gb

this alone tells you how easy it is to win with her. but it doesnt stop there.

heavy recovery can be canceled into dodge
500 ms evade heavy attack for a whopping 25 damage
easy access to unblockables via left heavy finishers
also seen her unlock the lvl2 25% damage reduction feat. (why that on the assasin and not on the "Tank hybrid" Aramusha?)

you dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how unbalanced these 2 new characters are

Ya know...I shouldn't even be responding to this considering how you respond in general and the first line. But i'll bite anyway and just ignore that first part.

Not inferior to zerkers chain. Zerker can play sloppier due to damage and hyper armor. but that's it. Amusha's infinite can be done with just lights, just heavies or a mix of the 2. Faster. and can be mixed in from a few things. Zerks combo is a lot easier to stop. But you keep on thinking it's better. More options in this game has always meant better. And Amushas inf has a lot more to it. Period.
Unblockable heavy from the stance is. And yeah so? GB also counters conqs full block and warlords full block and valks full block. That's not even a contesting point. And no. Hidden stance is more precise on the timing window. Amusha's is basically instant.

Childs play? You apply bleed 3 ways that i'm aware of. After a finisher in a chain, raw heavy, and mid zone. Most people will go for bleed on top because zone hits left. I've already seen a handful of gameplay of 2 good players VSing eachother and the bleed was getting blocked. PK's bleed is far easier because she can proc it from GB. And as i've already mentioned the heal she gets from base attacks is VERY small. It honestly just sounds like you're ignoring anyone who disagrees with you and reading a checklist.

I'm aware of how her pounce can be canceled. It still has to be canceled super early like storm rush and SB if you want to do any of the things besides bashing. Meaning the way you counter her pounce canceling nonsense should be the same way you deal with SB. Bushi and and zerk can cancel things on dodge. doesn't help you if you're close enough to be GBed. And we know how whiff baits are used due to those 2 heros.

The attack like the pounce is done at the end of the dodge. So it doesn't matter how fast the attack animation itself is you're still given plenty of time to see it coming due to the dodge animation playing first. And you're scraping with the left unblockable. it's super slow. which means it's going to be used as bait into GB or bait into bleed. So top stance and wait. react to what happens. I don't care about feats. I don't play with feats. If you want to argue her power in 4v4 take that up with someone else. I'm not the person to argue on 4's with.

Just because something looks strong on paper doesn't mean they will be stupidly strong in gameplay. Highlander and shinobi were both examples of this. But highlander is considered trash by many and most of shins kit ended up being useless. I'm not nor have I ever denied that she looks strong. I'm saying that right now it's too early to tell exactly. Because we're missing key info. Like what kind of confirms she can make. Or specifically how long you can wait to cancel certain things. Those make a big factor in terms of balance.

I already said it would be reasonable to nerf her pounce/bite. reducing the bite damage to a bar or slightly under from what it is atm which is a bar and a half. And removing the splat capability on pounce. Everything else needs to be left alone for 2 weeks to see where she is and we go from there. But all you're doing is what everyone else always does. They look at the move list. See some sup par gameplay and suddenly you can make an accurate statement on the hero's balance. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how stupid that is.

Vakris_One
11-12-2017, 11:11 PM
I agree it will be unpleasant for most I did elude to that. She's going to force people to learn how to play better and people don't enjoy being forced.
Well heres' the rub. She will force everyone else to play better against her without having the player controlling her having to be the better player. That is a problem in my opinion. The Aramusha isn't like that. Why? Only the devs know for sure. He will actually require a firm understanding of his play style in order to dominate foes. I can tell you from now, I will be picking up the Shaman on the 24th and I will be winning more that 50% of my matchups without really having to study her playstyle beforehand. She is easy to use and she is strong because all of her moves can be mixed up into one of the best mixup games I have seen. I will be very surprised if she ends up being a challenging character to play well with, like the Aramusha will inevitably be.



I wouldn't say each season has made OG heros obsolete. pk and warlord are 2 non arguable characters that have been relevant since launch. I would say a better statement would be each season has shown how weak OG kit design was.

Aramusha is a damn beast that people are underestimating. I'll link a video to show you exactly what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaMr8wsZTM

I know it's 7 minutes long but please watch. I encourage anyone who thinks he won't be good to watch this. This video only covers his constant combo he can do. It makes no mention of his perfect guard which is amazing. Or the fact that his dodge attack can be delayed and even canceled. If you wanted to give him one unique "thing" that's really him its his ability to feint and still continue his combo. No other hero can do that.

I think people are writing him off purely because he's not as flashy as shaman and that he can't get a raw heavy from a GB. (due to his recovery timing.) Aramusha seems to be built around mastering mind games and played differently compared to your standard bait, feint, parry style most are used to. This reminds me of last season. and a little of the second season. Meaning that both centurion and gladiator did not appear to be flashy or have one giant obvious thing that stuck out and made people think they were strong. Shinobi and highlander on the other hand did and thus people flocked to them first. Same is the case of shaman and aramusha.

Shaman is flashier. Thus it's what everyon's been focusing on. Aramusha is less flashy and more technical. His strength isn't obvious to the glancing eye. Only unlike season 2 and 3 there isn't a major imbalance between the 2 heros. In my opinion they are about even in terms of power. Shaman's power is just more aggressive and pressure based. Where as Aramusha's is more counter attack/good read based.

Anyway to end my rambling...I'm not saying shaman isn't really strong. She is. I already proposed 2 nerfs that would be the best place to start without hurting her overall. Most of her complaints are from pounce/bite. So removing splat and nerfing bite damage seems fair. I don't want to suggest any other nerfs till i've played as her. Because if i'm 100% honest it seems like both heros can be countered pretty easily by resting your guard in top and reacting to the rest. Like raider. Plus I need to know how far along animation wise certain things can be canceled into other things. Only information I have here so far is pounce/bite can only be canceled into something else very early. Basically like storm rush.
Aramusha has a great mixup game but that's it. Shaman matches his mixup game and then some. Maybe I'm being a bit extreme here but I personally think she is the best character I have seen in this game by far. I'm not seeing this beast you describe when you talk about Aramusha. He's super average in my opinion. Can you tell me one good reason why he doesn't get a heavy from a GB or a parry or even his full block counter? Because that one probably boggles my mind the most about him.

I will probably pick Shaman and mine some salt from the most obnoxious players and have a jolly fun time while doing so. I'll play Aramusha when I'm not bothered about winning every match I play, that's what the Shaman will be for. So I've got my 2 main characters covered from now on. I just wanted them to be equal in strength but in my opinion the Aramusha turned out to be the Highlander of Season 4.

These two vids sum up the 2 characters the best out of what I have seen from the guys who had early access to them:

Shaman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iz49yTXa0

Aramusha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3i_w3K4RB4

Lyskir
11-12-2017, 11:28 PM
Well heres' the rub. She will force everyone else to play better against her without having the player controlling her having to be the better player. That is a problem in my opinion. The Aramusha isn't like that. Why? Only the devs know for sure. He will actually require a firm understanding of his play style in order to dominate foes. I can tell you from now, I will be picking up the Shaman on the 24th and I will be winning more that 50% of my matchups without really having to study her playstyle beforehand. She is easy to use and she is strong because all of her moves can be mixed up into one of the best mixup games I have seen. I will be very surprised if she ends up being a challenging character to play well with, like the Aramusha will inevitably be.


Aramusha has a great mixup game but that's it. Shaman matches his mixup game and then some. Maybe I'm being a bit extreme here but I personally think she is the best character I have seen in this game by far. I'm not seeing this beast you describe when you talk about Aramusha. He's super average in my opinion. Can you tell me one good reason why he doesn't get a heavy from a GB or a parry or even his full block counter? Because that one probably boggles my mind the most about him.

I will probably pick Shaman and mine some salt from the most obnoxious players and have a jolly fun time while doing so. I'll play Aramusha when I'm not bothered about winning every match I play, that's what the Shaman will be for. So I've got my 2 main characters covered from now on. I just wanted them to be equal in strength but in my opinion the Aramusha turned out to be the Highlander of Season 4.

These two vids sum up the 2 characters the best out of what I have seen from the guys who had early access to them:

Shaman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iz49yTXa0

Aramusha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3i_w3K4RB4


pretty much this

Knight_Raime
11-12-2017, 11:42 PM
Well heres' the rub. She will force everyone else to play better against her without having the player controlling her having to be the better player. That is a problem in my opinion. The Aramusha isn't like that. Why? Only the devs know for sure. He will actually require a firm understanding of his play style in order to dominate foes. I can tell you from now, I will be picking up the Shaman on the 24th and I will be winning more that 50% of my matchups without really having to study her playstyle beforehand. She is easy to use and she is strong because all of her moves can be mixed up into one of the best mixup games I have seen. I will be very surprised if she ends up being a challenging character to play well with, like the Aramusha will inevitably be.


Aramusha has a great mixup game but that's it. Shaman matches his mixup game and then some. Maybe I'm being a bit extreme here but I personally think she is the best character I have seen in this game by far. I'm not seeing this beast you describe when you talk about Aramusha. He's super average in my opinion. Can you tell me one good reason why he doesn't get a heavy from a GB or a parry or even his full block counter? Because that one probably boggles my mind the most about him.

I will probably pick Shaman and mine some salt from the most obnoxious players and have a jolly fun time while doing so. I'll play Aramusha when I'm not bothered about winning every match I play, that's what the Shaman will be for. So I've got my 2 main characters covered from now on. I just wanted them to be equal in strength but in my opinion the Aramusha turned out to be the Highlander of Season 4.

These two vids sum up the 2 characters the best out of what I have seen from the guys who had early access to them:

Shaman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03iz49yTXa0

Aramusha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3i_w3K4RB4


I'll give the videos a look over later cause i'm literally about to leave. But I didn't want to leave you hanging on a response.

I don't really see how she's going to be considered easy to play. That statement makes me think "easily spammable strong move" of which I don't see she has. I think a majority of her power comes from her cancels. Which on one hand can mean in the broadest of terms she is probably harder to punish. But I don't think that directly makes her easier or stronger. It seems more like people don't like that she dictates the pace. Like you're playing around her and not the other way around. Gladiator is like that. PK imo is like that. So it's not something new.
Everyone's win rate will go up at the start because people will be using heros people are not used to fighting. I would say if the win streak of yours continued past 2 weeks you'd be onto something.

And why is that not enough? I think it's less that he's "bad" and more so that she's much better. Him compared to the rest of the cast he's still quite bit better imo. It's literally the fact that he can feint and continue combos. that means a lot. The technical reason is his recovery is too slow after GBing to land a heavy. My personal opinion is that they wanted people to use his counter ability more than your standard parry GB stuff. I'm personally glad they are moving away from that standard of play. I also personally believe that if a hero's entire worth is based off of being able to do one thing or not people need to broaden their perspectives and give other options a chance.

CandleInTheDark
11-12-2017, 11:56 PM
The point Raime makes about allblock is a good one, you can do a side or top heavy off of the allblock, which might not seem much now but bear in mind that the devs' direction with parry changes is they do not want people to get a free guard break or heavy off of it. The allblock will give the aramusha something that very few people (thinking centurion and gladiator as the exceptions with their parry punish) will have once that change goes through, a mechanic similar to parry that gives him options to stun, drain stamina or get a heavy from any direction.

There is also the fact that as I have said before, his character select blurb is the same as the peacekeeper's and she also does not have a heavy off of gb, though she does have triple stab so there is an argument that he should get something off of gb other than a wallsplat if the wall is close enough. Gb aside it is kind of why I want to try aramusha after I have repped up shaman, to see if the style he has is what I imagined the peacekeeper to be before I played her and saw how others do which may be why I see less of a problem than others do, by the looks of it it might have a good deal that I like.

Vakris_One
11-13-2017, 12:32 AM
I'll give the videos a look over later cause i'm literally about to leave. But I didn't want to leave you hanging on a response.

I don't really see how she's going to be considered easy to play. That statement makes me think "easily spammable strong move" of which I don't see she has. I think a majority of her power comes from her cancels. Which on one hand can mean in the broadest of terms she is probably harder to punish. But I don't think that directly makes her easier or stronger. It seems more like people don't like that she dictates the pace. Like you're playing around her and not the other way around. Gladiator is like that. PK imo is like that. So it's not something new.
Everyone's win rate will go up at the start because people will be using heros people are not used to fighting. I would say if the win streak of yours continued past 2 weeks you'd be onto something.
It's not that she has one easily spammable "strong move" it's that she has so many avenues available to her to get damage in and dictate the pace and screw with the opponent that it will be very hard to play her badly. I don't actually dislike that she is so versatile because I feel this is the way that all the characters should have been designed from the start. Then we would have avoided the problem of a lot of the OG roster using just two or three moves over and over because that is literally the only way they can attempt to dictate the pace of a match. I would much prefer that everyone is pushed up to Shaman's level of refinement than have her nerfed down to just becoming a "one/two safe move" kind of gal.

I agree that everyone's win rate will be higher until the majority learn what she can do. What I meant to say is indeed that I believe that I can continue to have a very good win rate well into the time when Shaman is no longer a mystery to most of the player base. This is because I had this experience with the PK. I've been a Kensei main since the first time he was introduced in the beta. I bought the game halfway through Season 2 and long story short I am well versed in his shortcomings and what a struggle his bad match ups can be. Only just a week or so ago I decided to pick up the PK. I already knew the basics of how she worked and had watched some advanced Youtube guides on her.

I was completely surprised to discover that I could make absolute mince meat out of a lot of the mediocre players that use the more endowed characters, the characters that usually bogged me down and made me really work for a win with my Kensei even though I could see they are much worse players than me. With the PK I felt so much more freedom to capitalise on my skill level versus my opponent's skill level that it really put the point across as to how much the Kensei has lead weights for shoes. I seriously felt Goku after he had trained for months using weighted clothing :)

In the Shaman I can see the same thing happening. She has so much more going for her than almost anyone else in the roster that it will be easy to do well with her. That's not necessarily a problem but I am just disappointing that the Aramusha did not get the same treatment at least. He is basically the Kensei but done right. However that still only makes him slightly above average and considering he was designed alongside the Shaman I see that as a missed opportunity and a shame.




And why is that not enough? I think it's less that he's "bad" and more so that she's much better. Him compared to the rest of the cast he's still quite bit better imo. It's literally the fact that he can feint and continue combos. that means a lot. The technical reason is his recovery is too slow after GBing to land a heavy. My personal opinion is that they wanted people to use his counter ability more than your standard parry GB stuff. I'm personally glad they are moving away from that standard of play. I also personally believe that if a hero's entire worth is based off of being able to do one thing or not people need to broaden their perspectives and give other options a chance.
I don't disagree with you here. I just feel that he came out as "good enough" while she is essentially the best character the devs have designed so far. That doesn't make him terrible but by comparison to her I just feel the devs could have done better by him.

Yes, my thought was also that they wanted to incentivise the use of his all block counter but the reward for pulling it off just aren't there. They need to take a look at it in my opinion. He still gets no heavy even from the all-block counter, he simply gets a stun or a stun and a push back if using the kick. Considering everything the Shaman can do, including that fact that her mixup game is well on par with his (so he's not original there) and serves as way into her more dangerous neck bite mixup game, you would think out of the two characters that maybe it should have been the Shaman that should not be getting heavies from a GB or parry. It just seems like very strange way to design these two when they pair them together.

At the end of the day I really just want the Aramusha to be as strong and as refined kit-wise and mechanics-wise as the Shaman, who by all rights should become the new benchmark for all the hero reworks that are coming.

Vakris_One
11-13-2017, 12:36 AM
The point Raime makes about allblock is a good one, you can do a side or top heavy off of the allblock, which might not seem much now but bear in mind that the devs' direction with parry changes is they do not want people to get a free guard break or heavy off of it. The allblock will give the aramusha something that very few people (thinking centurion and gladiator as the exceptions with their parry punish) will have once that change goes through, a mechanic similar to parry that gives him options to stun, drain stamina or get a heavy from any direction.

There is also the fact that as I have said before, his character select blurb is the same as the peacekeeper's and she also does not have a heavy off of gb, though she does have triple stab so there is an argument that he should get something off of gb other than a wallsplat if the wall is close enough. Gb aside it is kind of why I want to try aramusha after I have repped up shaman, to see if the style he has is what I imagined the peacekeeper to be before I played her and saw how others do which may be why I see less of a problem than others do, by the looks of it it might have a good deal that I like.
He'll be fun, I've never denied that. But compared to Shaman he's a second class hero and that's my issue with him more than with her. I don't want her nerfed to the ground, I want him brought up to her level. And then eventually I want to see the entire cast brought up to her level. I am just disappointing that there is such a not insignificant gap between Aramusha and Shaman.

CandleInTheDark
11-13-2017, 12:55 AM
He'll be fun, I've never denied that. But compared to Shaman he's a second class hero and that's my issue with him more than with her. I don't want her nerfed to the ground, I want him brought up to her level. And then eventually I want to see the entire cast brought up to her level. I am just disappointing that there is such a not insignificant gap between Aramusha and Shaman.

Oh yeah certainly I get that, my hope is that with the reworks and everything that comes after all of the characters are equally viable. Obviously they all have to be good at different things or we might as well pick only one character and be done with it and that is kind of where the devs need to get better, give the characters all the tools to do well in their strength while making each one seem special and not tacked on when compared to others.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2017, 11:09 AM
It's not that she has one easily spammable "strong move" it's that she has so many avenues available to her to get damage in and dictate the pace and screw with the opponent that it will be very hard to play her badly. I don't actually dislike that she is so versatile because I feel this is the way that all the characters should have been designed from the start. Then we would have avoided the problem of a lot of the OG roster using just two or three moves over and over because that is literally the only way they can attempt to dictate the pace of a match. I would much prefer that everyone is pushed up to Shaman's level of refinement than have her nerfed down to just becoming a "one/two safe move" kind of gal.

I agree that everyone's win rate will be higher until the majority learn what she can do. What I meant to say is indeed that I believe that I can continue to have a very good win rate well into the time when Shaman is no longer a mystery to most of the player base. This is because I had this experience with the PK. I've been a Kensei main since the first time he was introduced in the beta. I bought the game halfway through Season 2 and long story short I am well versed in his shortcomings and what a struggle his bad match ups can be. Only just a week or so ago I decided to pick up the PK. I already knew the basics of how she worked and had watched some advanced Youtube guides on her.

I was completely surprised to discover that I could make absolute mince meat out of a lot of the mediocre players that use the more endowed characters, the characters that usually bogged me down and made me really work for a win with my Kensei even though I could see they are much worse players than me. With the PK I felt so much more freedom to capitalise on my skill level versus my opponent's skill level that it really put the point across as to how much the Kensei has lead weights for shoes. I seriously felt Goku after he had trained for months using weighted clothing :)

In the Shaman I can see the same thing happening. She has so much more going for her than almost anyone else in the roster that it will be easy to do well with her. That's not necessarily a problem but I am just disappointing that the Aramusha did not get the same treatment at least. He is basically the Kensei but done right. However that still only makes him slightly above average and considering he was designed alongside the Shaman I see that as a missed opportunity and a shame.



I don't disagree with you here. I just feel that he came out as "good enough" while she is essentially the best character the devs have designed so far. That doesn't make him terrible but by comparison to her I just feel the devs could have done better by him.

Yes, my thought was also that they wanted to incentivise the use of his all block counter but the reward for pulling it off just aren't there. They need to take a look at it in my opinion. He still gets no heavy even from the all-block counter, he simply gets a stun or a stun and a push back if using the kick. Considering everything the Shaman can do, including that fact that her mixup game is well on par with his (so he's not original there) and serves as way into her more dangerous neck bite mixup game, you would think out of the two characters that maybe it should have been the Shaman that should not be getting heavies from a GB or parry. It just seems like very strange way to design these two when they pair them together.

At the end of the day I really just want the Aramusha to be as strong and as refined kit-wise and mechanics-wise as the Shaman, who by all rights should become the new benchmark for all the hero reworks that are coming.

So i'm back. Watched a few more shaman videos. Saw some really good players. etc.
I previously stated that I wanted bite's damage to be nerfed and pounces wall splat gone. Still do.
But now I believe her bleed attacks should do less. they currently do 25. That's absurd.
Potentially also dial back damage for her heavies by a little as well. Good that she has a 50/50. Bad that she causes 70 damage on a misread.
Annnnd final tweak i'd make is to increase her recovery time from dodging, whiffing a bleed, and whiffing a jumping/dodging heavy.

I'm glad you like her kit though. I think the beautiful thing about her is that all her problems can be tweaked just by adjusting some knobs slightly.
As for armusha I'm like 90% sure you get an unblockable guaranteed heavy from his all block. But i'll try to find more proof on it. I've seen some reddit threads on him and a list of suggestions to make him better. I don't really agree or disagree. My mind is fixed on his ability to soft feint and continue combos and his inf is flexible as heck. I'll want to see a lot more play over the next few weeks+ playing as him before I can say anything for sure.

Sipius
11-13-2017, 12:59 PM
She's op. Anyone that doesn't believe that can fk off. Quit trying to protect an op character for your own enjoyment.

Ubisoft should stick to single player games. They are bad at making multiplayer fighting games.If youplay Cent you should STFU on this subject really...

CandleInTheDark
11-13-2017, 01:14 PM
As for armusha I'm like 90% sure you get an unblockable guaranteed heavy from his all block. But i'll try to find more proof on it. I've seen some reddit threads on him and a list of suggestions to make him better. I don't really agree or disagree. My mind is fixed on his ability to soft feint and continue combos and his inf is flexible as heck. I'll want to see a lot more play over the next few weeks+ playing as him before I can say anything for sure.

They have two heavies from the allbock,no idea if they are guaranteed or like the orochi deflects in that they are situational. They have fury unleashed which is a top heavy and twin vipers which is a side heavy unblockable and counts as a chain starter or can be cancelled into a light in another direction.

Vakris_One
11-13-2017, 01:47 PM
So i'm back. Watched a few more shaman videos. Saw some really good players. etc.
I previously stated that I wanted bite's damage to be nerfed and pounces wall splat gone. Still do.
But now I believe her bleed attacks should do less. they currently do 25. That's absurd.
Potentially also dial back damage for her heavies by a little as well. Good that she has a 50/50. Bad that she causes 70 damage on a misread.
Annnnd final tweak i'd make is to increase her recovery time from dodging, whiffing a bleed, and whiffing a jumping/dodging heavy.

I'm glad you like her kit though. I think the beautiful thing about her is that all her problems can be tweaked just by adjusting some knobs slightly.
As for armusha I'm like 90% sure you get an unblockable guaranteed heavy from his all block. But i'll try to find more proof on it. I've seen some reddit threads on him and a list of suggestions to make him better. I don't really agree or disagree. My mind is fixed on his ability to soft feint and continue combos and his inf is flexible as heck. I'll want to see a lot more play over the next few weeks+ playing as him before I can say anything for sure.
I'm still not sure how viable his inf combo is going to be after everyone gets used to him. That combo looks to be his main source of dictating the pace of a match, the rest of his kit requires the opponent to make an attack. He doesn't seem to have much in the way of opening up a turtle. Light spam even with an advanced soft feint game still isn't going to force a reaction unless they give him unblockable heavies to put into the mix. The only unblockables he gets are from his zone and from twin vipers. Twin vipers is accessible only after a Blade Blockade so that's pretty much a write off against a turtle who never throws out a non guarranteed safe move.

His zone unblockable is very predictable and it's primary purpose is to be feinted but that zone burns so much stamina you wouldn't be able to get a decent chain off from it. It's similiar to the Raider's zone feint game but it doesn't feel as effective. I can't really say any more until I've played the Ara myself.

I would agree that those numbers for the Shaman need to be tweaked. 25 for a super fast bleed is too much. That's only 5 shy of a Gladiator's full skewer!



They have two heavies from the allbock,no idea if they are guaranteed or like the orochi deflects in that they are situational. They have fury unleashed which is a top heavy and twin vipers which is a side heavy unblockable and counts as a chain starter or can be cancelled into a light in another direction.
From the vids I've watched it seems that Fury Unleashed might be a guarranteed heavy but only if your guard was already at top stance before the blade blockade. If you switch to top after a blade blockade it can be blocked/parried. The twin vipers are not guarranteed, they can be parried.

CandleInTheDark
11-13-2017, 01:54 PM
I would agree that those numbers for the Shaman need to be tweaked. 25 for a super fast bleed is too much. That's only 5 shy of a Gladiator's full skewer!

If those are the numbers I would definitely agree, the thing that makes a gladiator skewer acceptable at that damage is a good deal of them get parried, you need to work them in.


From the vids I've watched it seems that Fury Unleashed might be a guarranteed heavy but only if your guard was already at top stance before the blade blockade. If you switch to top after a blade blockade it can be blocked/parried. The twin vipers are not guarranteed, they can be parried.

I would say at least one of those needs to be guaranteed, possibly the top since if the side is a chain starter it needs to follow the same rules, unblockable as a reward for getting the blade barrier excepting.

Breezy175
11-13-2017, 06:18 PM
Can anyone explain me how this should be fair? She have a bite which is a unblockable attack. She can faint this bite and she gets her health and her STAMINA back? In my opinion it should only gives you health or stamina back but not both. In my opinion she should lose all her stamina even when she gets you. Because a shugoki got ****ing tracking and loses a ton of health if he misses and loses near half his stamina.

Yours faithfully
Armorking 175 PS4

Knight_Raime
11-13-2017, 10:28 PM
They have two heavies from the allbock,no idea if they are guaranteed or like the orochi deflects in that they are situational. They have fury unleashed which is a top heavy and twin vipers which is a side heavy unblockable and counts as a chain starter or can be cancelled into a light in another direction.

In the footage I saw it was always his allblock followed with a side unblockable.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2017, 10:40 PM
I'm still not sure how viable his inf combo is going to be after everyone gets used to him. That combo looks to be his main source of dictating the pace of a match, the rest of his kit requires the opponent to make an attack. He doesn't seem to have much in the way of opening up a turtle. Light spam even with an advanced soft feint game still isn't going to force a reaction unless they give him unblockable heavies to put into the mix. The only unblockables he gets are from his zone and from twin vipers. Twin vipers is accessible only after a Blade Blockade so that's pretty much a write off against a turtle who never throws out a non guarranteed safe move.

His zone unblockable is very predictable and it's primary purpose is to be feinted but that zone burns so much stamina you wouldn't be able to get a decent chain off from it. It's similiar to the Raider's zone feint game but it doesn't feel as effective. I can't really say any more until I've played the Ara myself.

I would agree that those numbers for the Shaman need to be tweaked. 25 for a super fast bleed is too much. That's only 5 shy of a Gladiator's full skewer!



From the vids I've watched it seems that Fury Unleashed might be a guarranteed heavy but only if your guard was already at top stance before the blade blockade. If you switch to top after a blade blockade it can be blocked/parried. The twin vipers are not guarranteed, they can be parried.

Just from knowing his kit some and seeing footage of him playing out I think the idea was that he should be able to some what constantly use his combo even if someone blocks a lot. And should the turtle attempt to parry something he should in theory be able to cancel and allblock as a counter to it. If we consider the new changes to OOS this just bolsters his design more. He's clearly not designed to open enemies. Which makes him seem weak in this current meta. But he's dropping with probably half of the meta patches (assuming the parry changes are the rest of the def meta changes) so in a non defensive meta he might feel a lot better.

If vipers is the unblockable side heavy that's the one i've seen connecting after allblock. from what i've heard that's guaranteed in majority of cases. Wether it is or isn't is dependent on guard direction I believe. Either way i've ran out of what to say with him. We can both agree he can be better. I'm just personally not ready to write him off. While I do run into turtle players it's not often enough that his current kit won't be useful enough to me. Had I still resided in my peak skill placement from a few months back maybe.

Really she just needs to lose some damage and gain some longer recovery and lose wall splat on pounce. Obviously where to add recovery, how much and what damage to reduce by how much is more delicate than that. But imo it's a lot simpler to accomplish compared to other hero balance issues. Just hope they don't go overboard when tweaking her.

KingDjura
11-14-2017, 10:39 AM
When Roman (the bald guy who seems always unhappy to be here on stream) said on Warrior's Den : " I really really love this character" . I already knew that Shaman would be a problem (remember, he said the same thing for centurion ^^).

Just (partially) joking ... Just wait some days to test it in game before any discussion (remember that ppl were complaining the same way about Shinobi...and it was not really necessary in conclusion when released).

I_loveMemes
11-14-2017, 10:50 PM
Can anyone explain me how this should be fair? She have a bite which is a unblockable attack. She can faint this bite and she gets her health and her STAMINA back? In my opinion it should only gives you health or stamina back but not both. In my opinion she should lose all her stamina even when she gets you. Because a shugoki got ****ing tracking and loses a ton of health if he misses and loses near half his stamina.

Yours faithfully
Armorking 175 PS4 exactly they should give her a shugoki kind of health penalty if she misses and reduce the tracking

Oupyz
11-14-2017, 11:24 PM
the ****ing tracking on that **** is like wooow
the tracking should be reduced and make it unfeintable first thing first and this needs to be hotfixed

UbiInsulin
11-14-2017, 11:30 PM
the ****ing tracking on that **** is like wooow
the tracking should be reduced and make it unfeintable first thing first and this needs to be hotfixed

The bite tracking issue is being addressed in our next patch (https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/7cswhe/shamans_bite_tracking_is_fine/dpszgc0/).

CandleInTheDark
11-15-2017, 01:07 AM
Not had the chance to play it online yet because the download finished late and I like to mess around with the characters against bots first so I don't embarrass myself >.> lol but a few things I have picked up.

Yes 25 is probably a little bit much for the bleed, on the other hand people who are worried that she can soft feint it in any direction, it is an incredibly short range attack (as it should be), you need to be right in the other person's face to hit it which means they are going to get chances at lights or guardbreaks. It is probably easier to get bleed off of deflect if you have that timing down or after finishing a chain. Speaking of finishing chains, I doubt you are going to see the left unblockable go through often, it is pretty slow, or felt that way from the perspective of throwing it,more likely you are going to see them feint it and look for a guardbreak,light or heavy cancelled to light or they will spin put into the axe dodge attack.

Tracking I don't know anything about, bots don't dodge so well ,even level 3 ones, but the pounce itself is not like a shinobi kick where the best you can do is trade damage, an attack when they go into the animation will hit them out of it, and if they are going straight into the animation every time, people are going to figure out how to hurt them, if they insist on trying to spam the move the moment they get bleed, they are going to eat a lot of damage from it, I would say a guardbreak but so far I have either hit the pounce or been hit out of it so I don't know if you can guardbreak when they go for their second shot at it.

The pounce does need to stay feintable, smart people are going to start learning how to deal with it and the thing then is it becomes like storm rush in that as soon as you dodge and go into the animation for either the pounce or the heavy either you have the pounce which they will dodge or you have a slow attack that only comes from the top. The mindgame aspect is what is going to allow those moves to hit at all in a 1v1 setting (can't speak for 4v4 because again not been in one against people yet) or an oh hell I went into that at a bad time. The pounce could perhaps have a little less range but the thing there is that means less reaction time so that is a matter of pick your poison there.

I am not saying she is not strong, but I do think she is readable, or at least trying to spam the keynote moves will be readable, it is a good kit but one that has to be used well which is what they should be aiming for in the reworks they have going.