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View Full Version : Cheap version of Track IR2??Here???



jamesdietz
01-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Although I'm completely sold ( completely !!!) on Track IR2 - I did read somewhere in this forum recently of a cheap downloadable version ( for $10.00 or so...) Now I've lost track of this post...Has anyone actually purchased & used this ? I did like New View & wonder if this is a similar deal- I want to tell a newbie about other possibilities other than standard HAT movements& this is one possibility...Of course really he should just spend the$$$ & get Track IR- it is just wonderous!

jamesdietz
01-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Although I'm completely sold ( completely !!!) on Track IR2 - I did read somewhere in this forum recently of a cheap downloadable version ( for $10.00 or so...) Now I've lost track of this post...Has anyone actually purchased & used this ? I did like New View & wonder if this is a similar deal- I want to tell a newbie about other possibilities other than standard HAT movements& this is one possibility...Of course really he should just spend the$$$ & get Track IR- it is just wonderous!

tsisqua
01-28-2004, 09:45 AM
It is here:

http://www.mousevision.com/

I have it, and it works! It is not track ir quality, but it is still good.

Tsisqua

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BPLIzard
01-28-2004, 10:17 AM
Try freelook. It's free and works great.

http://freelook.org/

After tweaking, it's getting successful reviews from the LOMAC forum.

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Wing_Over
01-28-2004, 10:34 AM
Guys-do these TrackIR substitutes really work?

S 8
01-28-2004, 10:47 AM
I tried the latest mousevision and it worked,but the main thing I didn´t like and therefor probably won´t like a real track IR is that I really got tired in my eye muscles http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifDon´t you guys (or women) get it?

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1073048715.jpg

OberstWileyII
01-28-2004, 10:48 AM
Is anyone capable of Comparing the Newview(which I use) with the other two mentioned, FreeLook and Mousevision?? Comaprison in terms of 'realism/smoothness of movement', ease of Setup, flexibility in terms of extra/special options of any sort...

I understand that the TrackIR is the best once you get used to it, but for the interim I am finding that NewView is an Excellent tool for me...I VERY easily move my "head/eyes" around with my thumb and tophat, to thepoint that it is totally secondnature to me now. As I tend to throw in a LOT of body language in dogfighting, grunting and groaning, cursing myself or the enemy, body leaning left and right and forward-back, etc, that I think it would be difficult for me to use TrackIR successfully.

Again, a comparison by someone who has tried all would be helpful.

Thanks

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adlabs6
01-28-2004, 11:47 AM
Hi Wiley, I've used all three.

You know about Newview, and it's pretty nice, in that it doesn't require any input from the user really, and it's stable.

Mousevision's Cam2Pan and Freelook are about on the same level of smoothness as far as I can tell. Cam2Pan did seem to have more features, but it is a more deeply developed product at this time. I have been able to set up both programs to perform well. Cam2Pan was easiest, and Freelook took a bit more effort to get right, I had to tweak a good deal before I really understood what was happening. But in the end it is rock steady, well worth the hour or so invested in tweaks.

In closing, I'd say try the Cam2Pan demo for starters. It's pretty good and easy to get going. My only gripe was that it would sometimes loose center. Freelook is a much simpler program, you may have to tweak it for a hour or so to get it really right. The upside is that I have not yet had Freelook loose centering or loose track of my head during play.

If I get some more time this afternoon I can make you a track with Freelook and post it. My last track was made with 1.21 and is now useless. Let me know if this would be of help.

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Waldo.Pepper
01-28-2004, 02:46 PM
There are some avi files of Freelook working well at the freelook site. I have tried both cam2pan and freelook. Freelook is better. (flat out better! In all respects. setup quality of use.)

These days I use in combitation freelook and FBview plus 1.0 Beta (The newview close made by the Chinese group... I find it easier to setup and better that newview).

My 2 cents.

Ciao!

lev_lv
01-28-2004, 08:23 PM
Hi,
I am one of the developers of Cam2Pan software, I am following this discussion with a great interest and I would like to make couple remarks in Cam2Pan defend:
Cam2Pan-2 is now available as a pre-release version. Cam2Pan-2 has a totally redesigned engine which is much more robust and doesn't require re-centering.
Cam2Pan works with no gear on your head, no preparation required - pure sit and play concept.
Cam2Pan works fine with a Labtec webcam (costs $10 to $20).
Your feedbacks are extremely important for us at that early stage of the product, therefore, if you have any problems/requests with the new Cam2Pan then please email me at support@mousevision.com.

adlabs6
01-28-2004, 09:16 PM
Hello lev_lv,

I should add that what you say is correct. Cam2Pan DOES work with no gear on your head, which is very nice. I have to wear a hat with tape and paper on it with Freelook, which gets hot on my head after a while.

I will give the new Cam2Pan-2 a try, I didn't know it was avaliable.

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ptthome
01-29-2004, 06:23 AM
Bin using Cam2pan for months - it realy works
Just tried out freelook - gosh - it works too.

If you wear glasses - they can produce problems with reflections of the screen. But I fitted an little light to the front of my leather flying helmet. turned down the cam video sensitivity and its very accurate.

The only tricky thing is to train yourself not to bob your head around like an idiot - you will be surprised how much you move when the action is on.

What I can't understand is exactly what more you get with TrackIR? Does anyone know?

adlabs6
01-29-2004, 07:18 AM
Mainly a higher refresh on the tracking, and of course the actual hardware.

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p1ngu666
01-29-2004, 10:20 AM
my dad just bought pan2cam http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif anyone recommend settings?
i think low works best.
get around 23-24fps with the creative camera

lev_lv
01-29-2004, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
my dad just bought pan2cam http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif anyone recommend settings?
i think low works best.
get around 23-24fps with the creative camera<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't recomend to use the low setting unless you are really short on CPU. I would recomend to use the high quality setting, with camera resolution 160X120 or below. Just make sure that your entire face is within the preview window and that the program can see your face. (Once the face is found the green sad face turns into a happy yellow). If the program doesn't recognize you face immediately then try to adjust the focus and to improve the lighting. The best light would be a scattered light source somewhere in front of you. Desk lamp turned toward a bright wall will do it.

SE_Aetos
01-29-2004, 12:14 PM
Before I go out and buy a webcam, can't I simply plug in my Sony digital camcorder and use that? May be a stupid question, but I simply have not taken the time to find out.

SE_Aetos

adlabs6
01-29-2004, 02:50 PM
Well, I just got Cam2Pan 2 downloaded and setup.

What an improvement! The little crosshairs locked onto my nose immediately, with NO setup! I didn't have to even change any settings before I was using it successfully in IL2, and FS2004 with the ActiveCamera plugin.

I tried to distract the centering, and even if I was scratching my ear or chin, it didn't lose track, even tilting my head over a bit and agressively running my hand over my hair didn't mess it up. Fine work guys! http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/1/happy.gif

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TooCooL34
01-29-2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adlabs6:
Well, I just got Cam2Pan 2 downloaded and setup.

What an improvement! The little crosshairs locked onto my nose immediately, with NO setup! I didn't have to even change any settings before I was using it successfully in IL2, and FS2004 with the ActiveCamera plugin.

I tried to distract the centering, and even if I was scratching my ear or chin, it didn't lose track, even tilting my head over a bit and agressively running my hand over my hair didn't mess it up. Fine work guys! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plz compare it with TrackIR if you have any experience with it cause I'm buying webcam and sold my TrackIR1. plan to buy TrackIR2 or.. webcam if it's as good as TrackIR1.

adlabs6
01-29-2004, 06:05 PM
I can't make that comparison, since I have NO plans on buying TrackIR. The demo of Cam2Pan-2 is freely avaliable at the website to try, if you can buy/borrow a webcam to test it.

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SE_Aetos
01-29-2004, 07:20 PM
Well, I went out and got the "cheap" recomended Labtec Cam and I can't get the FPS to go higher then 13 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Needless to say, it is a bit jumpy right now...

Any help here?

SE_Aetos

lev_lv
01-29-2004, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
Well, I went out and got the "cheap" recomended Labtec Cam and I can't get the FPS to go higher then 13 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Needless to say, it is a bit jumpy right now...

Any help here?

SE_Aetos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please make sure that you USB connection is good enough - if you connect the camera through USB hub then try to reconnect it directly.
Make sure that camera runs at resolution 160x120 or below. You can change the resolution in menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video format. Make sure pixel depth is either RGB 24, RGB 555 or I420. Go to menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video source, disable automatic "Gain Control" and set Exposure to 1/30, Gain to 7500.

p1ngu666
01-29-2004, 08:05 PM
lev ill try those
with it on lowest it seems smoother. the only real problem for my dad atm is it tends to "stick" sometimes. like u get stuck looking out the side of cockpit. hes got so u haveto move your head alot for it to look around tho.
be nice if there was a toggle to turn it on and off. is there one? ive not poked about with it yet, soz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

SE_Aetos
01-29-2004, 08:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lev_lv:
Please make sure that you USB connection is good enough - if you connect the camera through USB hub then try to reconnect it directly.
Make sure that camera runs at resolution 160x120 or below. You can change the resolution in menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video format. Make sure pixel depth is either RGB 24, RGB 555 or I420. Go to menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video source, disable automatic "Gain Control" and set Exposure to 1/30, Gain to 7500.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe. The cam is connected directly. Set for I420. "Automatic" is disabled and Gain and Exposure are set to your above settings. Still only getting 15 FPS at best. Any other ideas? Is there any settings in Windows I need to do?

SE_Aetos

LeadSpitter_
01-29-2004, 09:20 PM
whats the light on his head, i tried it and it didnt pick up my head movement at all, I guess you need a light for it to pickup movement

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adlabs6
01-29-2004, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
lev ill try those
with it on lowest it seems smoother. the only real problem for my dad atm is it tends to "stick" sometimes. like u get stuck looking out the side of cockpit. hes got so u haveto move your head alot for it to look around tho.
be nice if there was a toggle to turn it on and off. is there one? ive not poked about with it yet, soz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can setup hotkeys under the OPTIONS menu.

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Waldo.Pepper
01-29-2004, 09:26 PM
Have tried cam2pan2 (if that's what it is called these days) and like the earlier poster it tends to loose centre woth me and I end up looking out the side or at my virtual feet. (most frustrating and I find that freelook does not do this, which is why I like/use freelook)
However, I do find that this second version is an improvemenbt over the first one. I just (so far) prefer freelook.

adlabs6
01-29-2004, 09:32 PM
I tried flashlight mode with an LED from a remote controller, and it works very well. Immediately I thought of this product I had seen in a Herrington catalog that came in the mail:
http://store3.yimg.com/I/herrington-catalog_1776_1911501

http://www.herringtoncatalog.com/ts113.html

It's like a micro flashlight that clips to a hat, and uses a white LED instead of a bulb. Probably could cut a hole in a ping-pong ball, and stick it over the bulb to increase the bright area, and make a larger, clearer target.

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lev_lv
01-29-2004, 10:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Have tried cam2pan2 (if that's what it is called these days) and like the earlier poster it tends to loose centre woth me and I end up looking out the side or at my virtual feet. (most frustrating and I find that freelook does not do this, which is why I like/use freelook)
However, I do find that this second version is an improvemenbt over the first one. I just (so far) prefer freelook.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cam2Pan can loose the center only if:
1) One uses low precission mode.
2) Cursor limits are disabled (check box on the main window).
3) The program looses your face - in that case sad green face appears in the upper left corner of the main window.
If you see the green face appearing try the following:
make sure your entire face is within the camera view. On some cameras changing resolution from the default 128x96 to 160x120 increases the view angle of the camera.
Adjust the focus. Improve the lighting.
After that you should see the crosslike mark following your nose in the preview window.

SE_Aetos
01-30-2004, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lev_lv:
Please make sure that you USB connection is good enough - if you connect the camera through USB hub then try to reconnect it directly.
Make sure that camera runs at resolution 160x120 or below. You can change the resolution in menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video format. Make sure pixel depth is either RGB 24, RGB 555 or I420. Go to menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video source, disable automatic "Gain Control" and set Exposure to 1/30, Gain to 7500.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe. The cam is connected directly. Set for I420. "Automatic" is disabled and Gain and Exposure are set to your above settings. Still only getting 15 FPS at best. Any other ideas? Is there any settings in Windows I need to do?

SE_Aetos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess, with a lack of further insight here, I will have to return the cam and try a different one. I don't know what else could be the problem. Any ideas on what webcam I should try?

SE_Aetos

lev_lv
01-30-2004, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SE_Aetos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lev_lv:
Please make sure that you USB connection is good enough - if you connect the camera through USB hub then try to reconnect it directly.
Make sure that camera runs at resolution 160x120 or below. You can change the resolution in menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video format. Make sure pixel depth is either RGB 24, RGB 555 or I420. Go to menu-&gt;settings-&gt;video source, disable automatic "Gain Control" and set Exposure to 1/30, Gain to 7500.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a ASUS A7N8X Deluxe. The cam is connected directly. Set for I420. "Automatic" is disabled and Gain and Exposure are set to your above settings. Still only getting 15 FPS at best. Any other ideas? Is there any settings in Windows I need to do?

SE_Aetos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess, with a lack of further insight here, I will have to return the cam and try a different one. I don't know what else could be the problem. Any ideas on what webcam I should try?

SE_Aetos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please try one more thing:
If you are using Win XP or 2000 then go to task manager and change the priority of Cam2Pan.exe to "real time". Some times it helps. If you are using XP then be sure not to close the program on X (close only through menu) when running in real time mode. Otherwise it may hang you computer - one of the XP bugs.

PriK
01-30-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lev_lv:Any ideas on what webcam I should try?

SE_Aetos<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, It's called a TrackIR. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, If you're going to go blow money do it right and get the TIR because no webcam will have the hardware necessary to give you the precision you need to spot an enemy properly and quickly enough (without icons at least) no matter how you tweak it.

These proggies are fine if you don't want to spend any money and have somewhat of an idea of what TIR is like but it's like using a 40hz mouse instead of a 100hz mouse for a first person shooter. Without deadzones and speed scaling it would seem to be an exercise in frustration using one of these proggies.

Have fun either way!

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Aaron_GT
01-30-2004, 08:50 AM
I've not managed to get cam2pan to recognise
my face in anything other than the lowest
resolution mode so far. Maybe it is due
to wearing glasses?

I'll have to look at the cursor excursion
limits, lev_lv. Thanks for that tip.

Aaron_GT
01-30-2004, 08:52 AM
"These proggies are fine if you don't want to spend any money and have somewhat of an idea of what TIR is like but it's like using a 40hz mouse instead of a 100hz mouse for a first person shooter. Without deadzones and speed scaling it would seem to be an exercise in frustration using one of these proggies."

Things are a bit different with an FPS as
in an FPS you shoot where you look, by and
large, but in FB you don't shoot where you
look, necessarily. So resolution and speed
of movement isn't required at the same level
for flight sims.

Cam2pan as speed scaling, and dead zones.

lev_lv
01-30-2004, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I've not managed to get cam2pan to recognise
my face in anything other than the lowest
resolution mode so far. Maybe it is due
to wearing glasses?

I'll have to look at the cursor excursion
limits, lev_lv. Thanks for that tip.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaron_GT,
Please make sure you have the latest version (2.0.3 now). If it still doesn't recognize you then try to improve the field of view, focus, and lighting. Try to swtch between camera's pixel depth (RGB 24, RGB 555, I420). If nothing helps then try for a moment to put the camera upside down - may be we have this "upside down" bug with that particular camera type - then we will fix it.

SE_Aetos
01-30-2004, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Please try one more thing:
If you are using Win XP or 2000 then go to task manager and change the priority of Cam2Pan.exe to "real time". Some times it helps. If you are using XP then be sure not to close the program on X (close only through menu) when running in real time mode. Otherwise it may hang you computer - one of the XP bugs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its going back. Tried the above and still no go. (Aetos drop kicks webcam...)

PriK,
Yes, it would be nice to get a TrackIR, but I don't care to put $130 into this. $40 is more to my liking. Unless you are willing to donate to the "Aetos needs TrackIR" fund?

SE_Aetos

Aaron_GT
01-30-2004, 10:56 AM
lev_lv - I just remembered you are the
developer and you emailed me with the registration
code! I haven't had chance to sim this week
so I haven't downloaded the very latest version
yet. I will give this is a go.

Next job will be finding how to get an
MS Sidewinder Pro emit key bindings so I can
turn the acceleration on and off and centre.

Thanks for the help.

adlabs6
01-30-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I've not managed to get cam2pan to recognise
my face in anything other than the lowest
resolution mode so far. Maybe it is due
to wearing glasses?

I'll have to look at the cursor excursion
limits, lev_lv. Thanks for that tip.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Aaron_GT,

I wear large lens glasses, and I have a very large glare on them throught the camera, yet still I've got no problems with tracking. So glasses may not be the trouble.

I've done some experimenting, and it seems that the farther I sit from the camera (so my face area is smaller in frame) the better the tracking becomes. Right now I am sitting a little more than 2 feet from my cam, and I can point to any area of the screen with ease. It just seems to get a better lock on my nose when my face is smaller in the frame, than when it is larger. See if that helps out any.

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SE_Aetos
01-30-2004, 11:04 AM
What cam do you use adlabs6?

SE_Aetos

PriK
01-30-2004, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"These proggies are fine if you don't want to spend any money and have somewhat of an idea of what TIR is like but it's like using a 40hz mouse instead of a 100hz mouse for a first person shooter. Without deadzones and speed scaling it would seem to be an exercise in frustration using one of these proggies."

Things are a bit different with an FPS as
in an FPS you shoot where you look, by and
large, but in FB you don't shoot where you
look, necessarily. So resolution and speed
of movement isn't required at the same level
for flight sims.

Cam2pan as speed scaling, and dead zones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for that and although I assumed it was obvious let me just point out that as a TIR beta tester I'm well aware of the differences between FPS and flight sims. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The analogy was to show the hardware difference is comparable to the situation I described. Believe me, even with a 100hz TIR2 you need all the precision you can get and more to maintain SA so using a device that is significantly less would be even more difficult for anyone let alone a discerning flight simmer. This was the point I was trying to make. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Aaron_GT
01-30-2004, 03:33 PM
I downloaded the very latest cam2pan.
Tracks perfectly on the highest quality
of tracking - huge improvement over
the previous version. Seems to track my
nose!

adlabs6
01-30-2004, 04:20 PM
It does track well!

BTW, I use and older Intel PC Cam Pro, I think is the name.

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Waldo.Pepper
01-30-2004, 08:55 PM
Earlier lev_lv wrote...

Cam2Pan can loose the center only if:

1) One uses low precission mode.

Well I have tried all modes of precision...

2) Cursor limits are disabled (check box on the main window).

I have tried it with cursor limits enabled and disabled....as well as many other settings.

3) The program looses your face - in that case sad green face appears in the upper left corner of the main window.
If you see the green face appearing try the following: make sure your entire face is within the camera view. On some cameras changing resolution from the default 128x96 to 160x120 increases the view angle of the camera.
Adjust the focus. Improve the lighting. After that you should see the crosslike mark following your nose in the preview window.

The camera sees my whole face. I have tried many different lighting schemes in the room. I have tried many different resolutions for the cameran including 128x96 160x120 all the way up to 320x240 (after that the fps become to low) Windows says that the USB is onloy at about 54% capacity

It does track my nose for A SHORT WHILE! After which the cursor will stubbornly be slightly off centre.... or in the corner a the while the happy face keeps smiling at me.... Like I have been saying...FRUSTRATING..... For me freelook works better..... I wish it didn't but there you go. I can see that this version of cam2pan is "better" as in more polished...and refined... and an improvement over the earlirer verison of CAM2PAN but it is still not good enough for me to use let alone buy.


Would you like me to use fraps and make a movie to show you that it DOES NOT return to centre even if the smiley face is on screen the entire time....

It is just not precise enough....like I said earlier. I wish it was.

SE_Aetos
01-30-2004, 09:08 PM
AAHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am about to drop kick this whole thing!!!!

Well, I went out and returned the "cheap" cam and got another "less cheap" cam. Well, It is pretty cheap too... Anyway... The only way I can get frame rates above 20 right now is if I stick my head 5 inches from the stupid cam! Course that is too close for the program to track!!! Lighting is messing me up big time... I feel like I am doing a photo shoot with all the lights I got on around me... This is just not working.... Cam to is going back! Time to put this to rest...

SE_Aetos

adlabs6
01-30-2004, 09:26 PM
Hmm, maybe this thing has to do more with a camera's low light abilities? My cam maybe is better at it, since last night I was using Cam2Pan-2 with NO lights on at all. Just the light from my LCD monitor was enough to make my cam track me just fine.

Who knows, I'm don't know anything about webcams, so I can only guess.

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My FB/FS2004 Pages (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/)

lev_lv
01-30-2004, 10:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Would you like me to use fraps and make a movie to show you that it DOES NOT return to centre even if the smiley face is on screen the entire time....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
movie would be great - if you can get the movie of the preview window then we can play it back through the program and try to figure out what went wrong. Thank you.

Waldo.Pepper
01-31-2004, 01:53 AM
Dear lev_lv

Really I must say that I am indeed impressed by your conviction, persistence and dedication to this effort with myself and of course to your software.

I have made a movie to demonstrate my experience with cam2pan. In its present state it is 11.6meg in size (divx compressed through virtual dub) Hope that is OK. If not I can change it to nearly anything. (wmv , rm, mov - whatever)...

It is a mere minute long. Notice please that during this minute I have pressed recenter no less than 8 times. Once after each movement to the edge of the screen. Also please notice that at NO TIME... did the software loose track of my beak and change from a smiling happy face. It did not loose sight of me at all. Cam2pam also did/does not return to center properly either. It is not accurate enough for myself to use. I do find freelook to be more accurate.

My head movements were careful and deliberate, and I feel that I gave the software a fair test in this demonstration. I did not task it excessively or try to "break" it as thought I were really testing it. Each reentering was needed after only a single movement. During a 'flight' with Il2/FB my head movements would be/are more excessive, further compounding the inaccuracy of cam2pan. Had I been flying I would not have done all eight recenterings. I would have "put up with" the "error/inaccuracy" of the return to center. and kept on flying. Doing so would have compounded the error and I would have ended up looking at my feet or the sky or somewhere else after I returned my head to the forward view.... that is without pushing the accursed center button again.

Like I have stated on earlier messages... I have tried many many different settings... lighting conditions etc. etc.

Aside from looking like a right tit in the movie (I hope you get a chuckle at how ridiculous I appear looking all over the place) I hope you will not suggest that I shave. As the missus will be upset. Other than that ... I am of course grateful and open to any and all suggestions that you may care to offer.

Do please write me at specialkwa@hotmail.com to arrange delivery of the movie file. I can setup an ftp site, temporarily, for you to download the file. If that is OK tell me so... and I will email you a link that you may download it.

Many thanks....

Waldo.

jamesdietz
01-31-2004, 09:08 AM
Wow, quite a discussion here on these gizmos - I must say after reading all of the postings for the past couple of days( I've been scouting this out so I could recommend a low cost solution to a newbie friend of mine,)I am. more than ever , glad that Santa brought me Track IR2;it installed easily because after some minor tuning problems in the first day or two & the usual learnig curve to use it,I've had no ( repeat NO) problems with it,,,it is such a teriffic addition to the game- I would have paid more!I went over to my friend's house the other day to help him fully install his FB game & at one point I flew a quick mission just to demonstrate what you could do with the game....well, after 3 weeks of usingTIR I sat there turning my head trying to look out in different directions & completely ignoring hat control- I'd sort of forgotten how- turning my head had become instinctive...really! So my advice if in doubt & you have the $$$$$ by Track IR2,honest you will never be sorry!

p1ngu666
01-31-2004, 09:36 AM
track ir costs lots tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
this cost me 5quid (well my dad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) already had a camera http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
not done anymore testin :\

SE_Aetos
02-01-2004, 10:26 AM
Well, Cam2Pan has let me down. Which is sad, because I liked the interface to it. I could not get it to work with high FPS.

I got my camcorder (Sony TRV240) to work with freelook. Cam2Pan would not reconize my camcorder, but it works great with freelook! Still working on some adjustments, but I think freelook will work out for me. Already had the camcorder, so this will all cost me nothing. (Once I return webcam #2) Sure, probably not as good as TrackIR, but ya sure can't beat the price. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If Cam2Pan will some day accept camcorders, I will look into it once again.

frenzon
02-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Hi, I'm the developer of freelook (http://freelook.org/). I just bought two labtec webcams, and they're shockingly crap in electrically-lit rooms (as opposed to sun-lit), so I probably wouldn't recommend them unless you're willing to shine a reasonably bright light on your face (mounting an LED on your head doesn't help, either).

To address the 100hz issue - there's nothing stopping Cam2pan or Freelook moving the mouse at 100hz. Mouse updates aren't necessarily tied to your webcam's framerate (and due to smoothing, anything above 30fps is mostly a waste).

In Freelook, all you have to do is set 'FPS' in your freelook.cfg file to '100'. At the moment this causes a fair increase in CPU usage, but that's just because it's wasting time getting doubled-up frames, which can and will be fixed in future.

That's not to say I am under any delusion that after ignoring the cost, Freelook is 'better' than TrackIR - unless they stop updating their software, they will always have the advantage of standardised hardware, coders/time, and developer support (games' TrackIR enhanced mode). But for the price, I don't think Cam2pan or Freelook can really be beat.

flyingskid2
02-04-2004, 02:30 PM
dang! i just bought a labtec cam hoping to try cam2pan or freelook tonight.

i returned the cheap compusa cam because i was only getting 8fps on cam2pan. quite choppy on movement.

i like cam2pan better because it can track my nose even in dim light. with freelook, i have to strap a flashlight on my head otherwise it detects the light on the kitchen beyond the open door.

PriK
02-04-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frenzon:
Hi, I'm the developer of http://freelook.org/. I just bought two labtec webcams, and they're shockingly crap in electrically-lit rooms (as opposed to sun-lit), so I probably wouldn't recommend them unless you're willing to shine a reasonably bright light on your face (mounting an LED on your head doesn't help, either).

To address the 100hz issue - there's nothing stopping Cam2pan or Freelook moving the mouse at 100hz. Mouse updates aren't necessarily tied to your webcam's framerate (and due to smoothing, anything above 30fps is mostly a waste).

In Freelook, all you have to do is set 'FPS' in your freelook.cfg file to '100'. At the moment this causes a fair increase in CPU usage, but that's just because it's wasting time getting doubled-up frames, which can and will be fixed in future.

That's not to say I am under any delusion that after ignoring the cost, Freelook is 'better' than TrackIR - unless they stop updating their software, they will always have the advantage of standardised hardware, coders/time, and developer support (games' TrackIR enhanced mode). But for the price, I don't think Cam2pan or Freelook can really be beat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for your comments frenzon and even as a TIR user/tester I can really appreciate what you are doing for the community. If this had been available (although the view hook wasn't in till FB anyway) before I made the leap to TIR I would definitely have given it or cam2pan a try.

However, I still would have ended up with TIR just as I used to play FPS games with a 40hz serial mouse and upgraded to ps/2 using ps2rate (120hz) at the time. I certainly don't have money to throw away, as evidenced by my current use of an aging GF4-ti4200, but I do think that for online players at least who use limited friendly icons and are serious about their performance should make the leap to a TIR. We're not talking new video card kind of money either although it is significant.

The other thing I can't wrap my head around is how you can even approach half of the precision of TIR without using a well-defined reflective dot system. It's bad enough with a TIR if you don't use a "boom" extension to give the receiver a full side-to-side throw and a closer dot. How can a webcam tracking the relatively short throw of a nose give anything but a poor (perceived) fps motion when the movement would have to be extrapolated so much?

Admittedly I haven't used freelook so please don't take my questions as being judgemental but I am just curious. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The CPU load is quite serious though imho, especially with FB being so CPU intensive. Can you make a software solution that takes advantage of the hook in FB come even close to the performance of the TIR?

I hope you are able to do so because it will open the world of free looking to many, many more budding flight sim enthusiasts which can only benefit everyone.

Cheers!

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GonzoX
02-04-2004, 06:07 PM
I also got the cheap Labtec WebCam. God what a POS this thing is. Not even worth the $20 I paid for it.

FreeLook comes up as a black window and locks up. Even Task Manager can't kill it. I have to reboot my XP machine to kill the freelook app.

Maybe the fact that I have a Radeon AIW8500DV card in my PC has something to do with it?

Anyway, now I thought about trying mousvision but I do not want to shell out any more $$ if this camera does not work.

Guess Ill give it to my Son and look for something better.

frenzon
02-04-2004, 08:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The other thing I can't wrap my head around is how you can even approach half of the precision of TIR without using a well-defined reflective dot system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Freelook relies on a marker, such as a piece of paper or LED, so it's much the same as TrackIR in that regard.

The CPU load issue is forefront in my mind - at the moment on my Athlon2600, Freelook uses around 2-3% CPU time while IL2 is running. Other users have experienced higher loads, and I figure that could well be because of crappier USB chipsets.

I can't claim Freelook will ever use as little CPU time as TrackIR, but I can get it close - beyond that, we'll just have to wait for faster CPUs.

Cam2pan uses much less CPU time than Freelook, btw, so I'd recommend that people use that if it's an issue.

PriK
02-04-2004, 10:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frenzon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The other thing I can't wrap my head around is how you can even approach half of the precision of TIR without using a well-defined reflective dot system.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Freelook relies on a marker, such as a piece of paper or LED, so it's much the same as TrackIR in that regard.

The CPU load issue is forefront in my mind - at the moment on my Athlon2600, Freelook uses around 2-3% CPU time while IL2 is running. Other users have experienced higher loads, and I figure that could well be because of crappier USB chipsets.

I can't claim Freelook will ever use as little CPU time as TrackIR, but I can get it close - beyond that, we'll just have to wait for faster CPUs.

Cam2pan uses much less CPU time than Freelook, btw, so I'd recommend that people use that if it's an issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you can get it pretty close that's an accomplishment in itself, and 2%-3% doesn't sound all that bad really especially as newer processors are catching up with FB. And you're right about USB, it must be tough dealing with so many poorly written implementations juggling three flight controllers, webcam, printer, mice, etc. Either way I think you're helping to drive innovation and interest in what will eventually jump out of it's status as a niche technology.

Now get to work creating a good 3D algorithm so we can peek around those damn struts in our future sims. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://charvel.acwos.com/chbanner.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
02-04-2004, 11:14 PM
Over the last few days I have been enjoying an exchange of emails with Lev ( a developer of cam2pan ) and have learned much about the program.

I believe that I may be switching to cam2pan in the near future, however, freelook still retains some features/advantages that I like.

My cam is a logitach model. (It is cheap these days ... but not for me cause I bought it over a year ago.) It is a good cam (not great not the best by any means ... kind of average I suppose. )

Both these porgrams require a fair amount of tweaking to get them just right for you!

One tip I shall make is to test and calibrate the application you choose to use in the same screen resoluaiton as the game.

If for example your Windowe desktop is 1154 x 864 ( as is mine ) and you fly in 1024 x 768 I have found that the movement of your cursor ( viewpoint in the game ) will naturally not match what you expect. If there is even greater divergence (I.E. desktop at 1024 x 7689 and game @ 800 x 600 ) the accuracy will be even more greatly
hammered.


Summary (Wildly subjective also!)

Cam2pan

Pro

No marker needed.

Lower cpu load.

I guess cam2pan has a more poilished "look" to it as well. Although I kind of like the simnplicity of the freelook app.

Freelook

I simply love tha fact that I can assign buttons on my jostick to start stop and centre the program with freelook setup

Until recently my joystick was a Logitech Wingman Extreme Digital 3D (OK if you have all stopped laughing now I can continue....OK finished yet.....OK I can wait....
Now that I am the owner of an Saitek X45 I have more buttons than I know what to do with and I shall be exploring the possibilities of setting up a key that will start stop and centre cam2pan.

I found freelook simpler to set up. Whle neither require you to be an MCSE I found the simpler setup of freelook to be easier to get going with. It was easier to get some utility out of the program. That is an initial advantage.which fades. Thought it is still an advantage.

It is free! cam2pan is very inexpensive But if you have any Scotsman in you.... well you can see where this is going....

Hope this was of some value to someone.

Thanks Lev for all your help. I am a developing convert.

flyingskid2
02-05-2004, 10:56 AM
i'm returning the labtec cam. it's no better than the compusa branded one.

i'm giving up on this whole head-tracking business. i've tried it and wasn't thrilled. my main gripe is it requires you to sit up straight and still. same problems i will have even if i go with trackir.

i think i'll just stick with my mouse stick on my TQS.

masamainio
02-05-2004, 12:46 PM
GonzoX

Here might be the solution to your problem:

http://freelook.org/forum/68

NP_TrackIR
02-06-2004, 08:42 PM
Hello:

This is an interesting discussion, couldn't help myself from posting!

We love Cam2Pan and Freelook, both are great ways of getting introduced to head tracking for view control. If the systems work for you, then we are happy you found a solution.

One note, frame rates DO matter, the difference between a TrackIR and TrackIR2 are very noticable, that is from 60 to 100Hz.

When tracking a dot / target, the camera must capture the position in a raster scan manner, meaning that you can move your position while the rolling blade shutter is in action, resulting in smearing. This is very noticable when moving quickly downward, or from left to right, moving with the grain of the raster scan. Higher frame rate is key to miminize this effect and results in more precise positioning. If there was an acutal shutter in the camera then the effect would be less, but you could still smear a target position very easily during the time the shutter was open. Practical note; this is why movies have that "effect" they are only 24FPS, but TV is 60 interlaced, and it looks sharper in detail on motion, that is an effective difference of only 6FPS.

Also, aside from accuracy, you can not substitue faking more sample points for a lower latency. We are now at 10ms per frame, 11-12ms from actual head motion to view change. Web cams do well to be at 35 to 40ms, this is slow.

There is also a big difference between Cam2Pan and Freelook, from when we last analyzed their programs. Freelook is tracking a point, similar to us. This is good for trying to be "absolute" in positioning. Cam2Pan is using some sort of Optical Flow with a reigon detector, unless changed in 2.0. This can give much higher resolution, but is subject to being very relative.

In short, we are working hard to make our system go even faster, that is how much we think that refresh rate and latency matter. It is the old phrase, "timing is everything"! We are also working to get more titles to be TrackIR Enhanced, something that exclusive to us, the only truly Absolute tracking device on the market.

Jim
NaturalPoint

TheGozr
02-06-2004, 08:48 PM
posted 04-02-04 12:08
the answer: from the administrator

we are not talking about the same level of the meaning of the word "smooth"

so i think the track ir 2 as a limitation that i don't quite like.

ANd bottom line is that the track ir 2 is not good enough for our "highend" video cards.


FOR NOW In my opinion "Smooth is smooth" and i'm expecting too much?. not..
The product is 128 $ but should be at 45 $ really.
In ANyway Great to get, i wouldn't like to fly with out it for sure..And it's a Must for flights sims.&lt;---

If you can fix this problem i 'll do all the publicity i can for the Tir 2



Like i did post before.
I received your tech email about it and i will call Monday with my #..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)