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View Full Version : WOW! Was the German 30mm cannon REALLY that powerful???



Chainsawofdoom
06-03-2004, 06:43 PM
Holy s__t!!!!! I'm flying my beloved BF-109 G10 as of late, and I cannot get over how awsomely powerful that cannon is! I'm talking about one-shot kills almost every time. And not just setting the enemy on fire or winging him... I'm talking about MASSIVE, DEVESTATING catestrophic damage, like the plane exploding to pieces with a single round in some cases. Russian bombers are dead meat when confronted with this mighty cannon... one or two rounds will almost instantly blast the entire tail structure clean off the plane and cause a death spiral, if the bomber doesn't simple explode outright.

I almost feel like I'm cheating somehow. A fighter-type plane has no chance. One round anywhere on the plane and it's bye-bye. My question is, was this cannon really that powerful during the great war? If it was, I don't care what plane I'd have been in if I were an allied pilot... If I saw any plane armed with that kind of absolute devestation in its weaponry, I'd be fleeing like a coward in no time flat! Whoa!

The only bad thing about it so far seems to be the fact that it can only carry a few rounds.

Chainsawofdoom
06-03-2004, 06:43 PM
Holy s__t!!!!! I'm flying my beloved BF-109 G10 as of late, and I cannot get over how awsomely powerful that cannon is! I'm talking about one-shot kills almost every time. And not just setting the enemy on fire or winging him... I'm talking about MASSIVE, DEVESTATING catestrophic damage, like the plane exploding to pieces with a single round in some cases. Russian bombers are dead meat when confronted with this mighty cannon... one or two rounds will almost instantly blast the entire tail structure clean off the plane and cause a death spiral, if the bomber doesn't simple explode outright.

I almost feel like I'm cheating somehow. A fighter-type plane has no chance. One round anywhere on the plane and it's bye-bye. My question is, was this cannon really that powerful during the great war? If it was, I don't care what plane I'd have been in if I were an allied pilot... If I saw any plane armed with that kind of absolute devestation in its weaponry, I'd be fleeing like a coward in no time flat! Whoa!

The only bad thing about it so far seems to be the fact that it can only carry a few rounds.

BBB_Hyperion
06-03-2004, 07:01 PM
Its even undermodeled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Nice try for trolling tho .)

Regards,
Hyperion

Fennec_P
06-03-2004, 07:22 PM
Does anyone have a link for that video of that spit (or was it Hurri?) getting nailed by he MK108? I can't find it.

Anyway, it looks cool.

meh_cd
06-03-2004, 07:31 PM
Hmm, I want to see that video!

And I really love the MK108, it gives a person like me who can't fight worth **** the chance to take some nice deflection shots at people.

Zyzbot
06-03-2004, 07:40 PM
http://pages.ykt.ru/il2/Hronika/photohronika/30mm%20mk108%20on%20blenheim.jpg

Menthol_moose
06-03-2004, 07:57 PM
Now imagine what the 4 centre-lined mk108's on the 262 would have done to a bombers wing.

uber schnell dead meat.

meh_cd
06-03-2004, 08:39 PM
What are the other 2 holes from? 13 mm? 20 mm?

Korolov
06-03-2004, 08:45 PM
You bet - the Mk108 and many of the german cannons in use after the '41 and '42 years used a special shell type; in essence, the bullet was hollowed out in much the same way that the brass was hollowed out, and maximum explosives being stuffed into the shell. This resulted in huge explosive power that other nations' cannon's didn't have.

It was said that 3 rounds from a Mk108 was enough to take out a B-17. The drawbacks, however of this cannon, was extremely low muzzle velocity, short range and poor accuracy. This isn't a problem when you're able to get to point blank range and let it loose right into the tail of a bandit.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

wayno7777
06-03-2004, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meh_cd:
What are the other 2 holes from? 13 mm? 20 mm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do yoiu mean the ones with the arrows? Those are steps. Yikes, how did that plane get back???

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

meh_cd
06-03-2004, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meh_cd:
What are the other 2 holes from? 13 mm? 20 mm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do yoiu mean the ones with the arrows? Those are steps. Yikes, how did that plane get back???

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I look like an idiot. :P Heh I thought the arrows were pointing them out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

wayno7777
06-03-2004, 08:55 PM
Perfectly understandable. I only noticed them cause they didn't have the spring back covers.
Is that a Defiant?

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Chainsawofdoom
06-03-2004, 09:04 PM
Whatever the plane was, I sure feel sorry for any tailgunners or crew in that area of the fuselage. Can you imagine the impact forces? Can you imagine the carnage? I have no idea how that poor plane could have made it back home. Heroic piloting, no doubt.

Are you serious when you're saying that the cannon is undermodeled in the sim? *gulp!*

VW-IceFire
06-03-2004, 09:08 PM
Keep in mind most of those pictures of the MK108 damage are best case scenario. Sometimes its going to miss (explode too soon or too late) and the explosive potential isn't going to be there. Other times its going to do exactly what its supposed to and blow the **** out of whatevers infront.

A very good weapon...game and reality. You just gotta be real close to lobb it at your target (preferably bombers).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Charos
06-03-2004, 09:09 PM
The plane didnt get back from anywhere - It was setup on a test stand on the Ground - A nice 30mm fireing range.

I wish I could get holes to appear in fuselages like that in IL2FB.

Obi_Kwiet
06-03-2004, 09:10 PM
That's the way I want to die. Instantaniously.

wayno7777
06-03-2004, 09:10 PM
Aaahhhh. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

meh_cd
06-03-2004, 09:15 PM
Oh, I've got a game-related MK108 question. Everyother shot is a tracer, or something. The one you can see the yellow with - and this is the shell that explodes on impact, then the shell between that one and the next yellow one doesn't explode. Well at least not on the ground, which is the only thing I can hit. I take it the exploding one is HE, and the other is... AP? Or incindiary? (Wow, I think I just butchered the spelling.)

^1st person to make sense of that gets a cookie...

wayno7777
06-03-2004, 09:36 PM
I think the ratio was pilots preference.

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

LuftLuver
06-03-2004, 10:12 PM
The damaged caused by the mk108 seems pretty good. Probably just a tad weaker than reality. Heck, even if they were undermodeled by 50% they would still be nuts.

The PROBLEM is, the aircraft toting these wonder uber guns around are too agile. Back in earlier versions of the game, you could always see the benefit of taking/flying the 109s with the smaller 20mm in the nose. I don't believe sufficient weight is being modeled in for the mk108 guns and ammo. They gotta weigh something. There's just no negative/con at all for flying with these heavy cannon.

Fly around in a FW190/A9 then remove the mk108s and go 20mm only. No difference. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"All your bases are belong to us."

BBB_Hyperion
06-03-2004, 10:40 PM
Spit mk108 damage test.
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/Spitfiremk108.jpg

http://www.munavia-21.org/page010.jpg

Wonder why this tracer round is mentioned as training use cause every 2nd round is a tracer in fb?

Here are other tracer mk108 rounds look all have explosives.

http://www.munavia-21.org/page006.jpg
http://www.munavia-21.org/page007.jpg
http://www.munavia-21.org/page008.jpg
http://www.munavia-21.org/page009.jpg


for Luftluver

mk108 2* 58 kg + 2*0.480 (55 rounds) kg mine shell
mg151/20 2* 42,3 kg + (0.205+0.183)/2*2 (125 rounds or 145 different sources) kg 20 mm mine shell

mk108 = 2*(58+55*0.480) = 168,8 kg
mg151/20 = 2*(42,3 kg+ 0.194*125) = 133.1 kg

35 kg difference thats not much ! ripping the useless mg17 off even less weight.

Regards,
Hyperion

BBB_Hyperion
06-03-2004, 10:49 PM
As sitenote nitropenta is 140 % as powerfull as tnt (only pressure burst effect) and ha41 Vc or VD capsules 40 % more effective than nitropenta(pressure burst).

That is modeled in IL2 not sure if they changed something in FB.

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

Considering this values as still true (what i better hope not)

Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM


MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.
---------

When you are clever you will find out what was wrong at that time .) Special look at the value power.

Regards,
Hyperion

actionhank1786
06-03-2004, 11:57 PM
The Germans had even developed a 30mm cannon round, that had a war head that was fused, so that it only exploded when it came into contact with liquids, making it great for the fuel tanks, wouldnt explode too soon, or too late, it would go just when it hit all that aircraft fuel...ouch...
~Aaron

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White

actionhank1786
06-03-2004, 11:59 PM
Also, if you all are interested, check out this site. it's got pictures of B-17's that took a "few" hits and made it back home...some of them are simply breath taking...it's amazing these things could even fly for a few feet...
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm
~Aaron

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White

ELEM
06-04-2004, 02:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:
Perfectly understandable. I only noticed them cause they didn't have the spring back covers.
Is that a Defiant?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's a Blenhiem.

I somehow doubt that this was done whilst flying. There is so little structure left that the aerodynamic forces on the tail would have caused it to separate. Or the landing forces would have finally broken it. I think that was done with the a/c on the ground.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

[This message was edited by ELEM on Fri June 04 2004 at 02:21 AM.]

Abbuzze
06-04-2004, 04:41 AM
20mm HE hit to a HE111 rudder from 90 deg.

no comment... http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/MGFFwDelay.jpg

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif
couldn´t restist http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HART_dreyer
06-04-2004, 05:57 AM
The strongest weapon in the world is not going to help you if you can't hit your enemy.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

Prof.Wizard
06-04-2004, 06:40 AM
If you have ACE expansion installed launch the Go-229 track and watch it... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

30mm of mayhem.

-----------------------------

Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg