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Red_Storm
04-21-2004, 12:16 PM
Ok, first of all, I'm an avid Luftwaffe pilot, I fly the Dora mostly. Lately I've started fighting some US planes and among them is the P-47. On my first attack run I was more or less expecting to have to spend half of my 20mm ammo on one P-47, but I found it caught fire by just looking at it. I mean, I fired a short burst, wham, it was on fire. I've been able to reproduce this every single time. Either a wing snaps off or it just catches fire. Then I went back to fighting the Yak-3 again, which takes an insane amount of damage. Sorry to say, but something really is up with the Yak-3 DM. I'll try to post some tracks (when I can find a host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). It takes way too many rounds to take it down, about three or four times as much as the P-47. I am more or less convinced this is quite a serious bug in damage modeling which has probably been accidentally overlooked. The P47 is an absolute joke, it gets destroyed when a grain of sand hits the plane and the Yak-3 is insane, it eats bullets like cheese burrito's. I beg you to look into this, as it has more or less taken away the fun to fight P-47's in my beloved Dora. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS. Don't call me an Ameriwhiner, I've always stood strong for the Luftwhiner cause, but this really is rediculous and I can see why most Indianerflyers get annoyed with this. The P-47 really is a paper plane.

Oh, I don't believe its bias either, so don't call me a whiner. It's abviously not bias, as the La-7 is a paper plane too. I just think a bug slipped into the Yak-3 and P-47 damage modeling.

Red_Storm
04-21-2004, 12:16 PM
Ok, first of all, I'm an avid Luftwaffe pilot, I fly the Dora mostly. Lately I've started fighting some US planes and among them is the P-47. On my first attack run I was more or less expecting to have to spend half of my 20mm ammo on one P-47, but I found it caught fire by just looking at it. I mean, I fired a short burst, wham, it was on fire. I've been able to reproduce this every single time. Either a wing snaps off or it just catches fire. Then I went back to fighting the Yak-3 again, which takes an insane amount of damage. Sorry to say, but something really is up with the Yak-3 DM. I'll try to post some tracks (when I can find a host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). It takes way too many rounds to take it down, about three or four times as much as the P-47. I am more or less convinced this is quite a serious bug in damage modeling which has probably been accidentally overlooked. The P47 is an absolute joke, it gets destroyed when a grain of sand hits the plane and the Yak-3 is insane, it eats bullets like cheese burrito's. I beg you to look into this, as it has more or less taken away the fun to fight P-47's in my beloved Dora. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS. Don't call me an Ameriwhiner, I've always stood strong for the Luftwhiner cause, but this really is rediculous and I can see why most Indianerflyers get annoyed with this. The P-47 really is a paper plane.

Oh, I don't believe its bias either, so don't call me a whiner. It's abviously not bias, as the La-7 is a paper plane too. I just think a bug slipped into the Yak-3 and P-47 damage modeling.

LEXX_Luthor
04-21-2004, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>PS. Don't call me an Ameriwhiner, I've always stood strong for the Luftwhiner cause,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Same thing. LuftWhiners are USA simmers.

Nevertheless, I did some static testing using AI TB~3 gunners and P~47 flamed instantly, faster than Fb109. Ki~84 lasted the longest.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

VW-IceFire
04-21-2004, 12:29 PM
Yeah Thunderbolt cannot take damage to anything important. Structurally its quite sound at the moment but any hits to the fuselage and the main fuel tank starts leaking or lights on fire.

Hoping thats fixed...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Blackdog5555
04-21-2004, 12:56 PM
I agree. The P47 dm/dp is off. The Yak 3 is has a lot of wood in is construction and little armour and its seems unusually tough. it is a great plane though, especially the later versions equiped with the VK 107 engine. But the dp model is off. and for the p47, the weapon model for the 50 cal BMG is incorrect. Pilots of the P47 cal refer to the firepower as "devastating" but I feel like im shoot a bb gun. My web research shows that the BMG 50 cal has 3 time the destuctive force of a 303 rifle fire. also the Russian 20mm has about 3.3 times the firepowr of a 50 cal. but calcualte with ROF you get a smaller number. The P47 8 BMG has the same destructive force as the La7 3x20 but for the life of me I have a hard time bringing Russian planes down with it. The algorithms are off. Dispersals rate is too high when compare to gun actual camera footage. I have the data. But, after all, the game was developed to showcase great russian plane. No big deal, I just fly a Russian plane. But the BMG with a muzzle energ of 12,000 lb in real life isn't represented in this sim correctly.

Blutarski2004
04-21-2004, 01:35 PM
This sort of stuff does lead one to wonder .....

BLUTARSKI

Aaron_GT
04-21-2004, 02:48 PM
blackdog:
The base ROF of the B20
of the La7 is almost
identical rof (800 rpm)
to the .50. (750 to 850 rpm)

DJDalton
04-21-2004, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I agree. The P47 dm/dp is off. The Yak 3 is has a lot of wood in is construction and little armour and its seems unusually tough. it is a great plane though, especially the later versions equiped with the VK 107 engine. But the dp model is off. and for the p47, the weapon model for the 50 cal BMG is incorrect. Pilots of the P47 cal refer to the firepower as "devastating" but I feel like im shoot a bb gun. My web research shows that the BMG 50 cal has 3 time the destuctive force of a 303 rifle fire. also the Russian 20mm has about 3.3 times the firepowr of a 50 cal. but calcualte with ROF you get a smaller number. The P47 8 BMG has the same destructive force as the La7 3x20 but for the life of me I have a hard time bringing Russian planes down with it. The algorithms are off. Dispersals rate is too high when compare to gun actual camera footage. I have the data. But, after all, the game was developed to showcase great russian plane. No big deal, I just fly a Russian plane. But the BMG with a muzzle energ of 12,000 lb in real life isn't represented in this sim correctly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really don't think they ever operationally put the VK-107 in the Yak 3. It was such a problematic motor that the Soviets didn't think the problems and downtime outweighed the performance the light Yak 3 obtained with the VK-105PF.

IIRC the VK-107 made its way into Yak 9U's but it could rarely be operated at full capacity long enough to make it worth the aggravation. I don't think they ever got that motor right and the Jet Age arrived before it was up to specs.

"I never lost a wingman"

Erich Hartmann

Korolov
04-21-2004, 05:57 PM
This is why you aren't supposed to get hit in the first place. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Bearcat99
04-21-2004, 06:28 PM
Yeah... the Jug should be a lot surdier than she is in this sim.... lets just hope 1C gets it right this time.

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LuftLuver
04-21-2004, 09:34 PM
BUMP to finally get the P47 right.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

WUAF_Co_Hero
04-21-2004, 09:48 PM
Koro is absolutely right (though the DM might still be a problem..), if you find yourself in precarious situations w/ the Jug very often, then you are DEFINTELY flying it wrong. No other way around that, sorry.

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

BigKahuna_GS
04-22-2004, 03:18 AM
S!


The tremendus ability of the P47 Thunderbolt to absorb battle damage and make it back home again is legendary. Robert S. Johnson took 21 cannon hits and over a hundred MG hits and made it back.

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/56thfg-gallery.jsp



http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47elevatorgone.JPG



http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj4.jpg



http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/56g/rsj5.jpg
Maybe getting killed in a P47 should be allot harder !



http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Johnson1.JPG
This well known photo shows the bottom portion of Johnson's
rudder having been blasted away by 20 mm cannon shells


http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/KearbyWayne.JPG
Duke thinks the 47 is modeled to weak and plans on telling Oleg so http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



I thought you might want to read this excerpt from Military History Magazine interview of Robert S. Johnson (P47 driver) on aircraft types vs aircraft ruggedness :


MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. GΓΌnther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?

Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force.

As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone.

As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47.

When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing.

However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

When his combat tours were finished, Johnson returned Stateside, to a hero's welcome.

__________________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Red_Storm
04-22-2004, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Co_Hero:
Koro is absolutely right (though the DM might still be a problem..), if you find yourself in precarious situations w/ the Jug very often, then you are DEFINTELY flying it wrong. No other way around that, sorry.

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am the one shooting it. Read my original post.

MatuDa
04-22-2004, 04:41 AM
I find the p47 still pretty strdy online, takes around 3 hits to same location with mk108 to do enuff damage to bring it down. It's more a problem on other planes like p63 that can take 6 mk108 and then the pilot jumps out of the plane just for pitying me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Havent met any yak3 online for a while so I dont have a say on its DM.

609IAP_Recon
04-22-2004, 05:25 AM
"I am the one shooting it. Read my original post."

I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Salute!

JG50_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/Recon_sig.gif

VW-IceFire
04-22-2004, 07:00 AM
I don't think the Yak-3 is actually that far off with the level of DM complexity that we have. The Russian aircraft are generally made from the tough and sturdy Delta wood. Its not pine bark...I suspect it should probably light on fire more from incendiary rounds but the toughness of the Yak-3 right now is coming from the MG151/20 and MK108 problems...almongst other weapons. In theory thats supposed to be fixed.

So is the .50cal dispersion. So we'll see the Jug being more devastating as well as rolling better.

The thing is that even a concentrated burst from a MG151/20 for a short second will set the fuel tank ablaze...I know this from shooting Jugs...not flying them. Flying them I know that a single hit from a 20mm round can bring you down...now thats possible but the frequency is alarming. However, I don't think any specific changes were made to the DM and I think the DM globals which are being worked on will likely aleviate this problem.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Red_Storm
04-22-2004, 07:46 AM
I sure hope so, because this really takes away from the immersion when attacking a flight of P-47's.

Ki_Rin
04-22-2004, 08:49 AM
i just hope that the P47 D22 gets the correct paddle prop it should have

Diablo310th
04-22-2004, 10:24 AM
I thought teh D-22 and D-27 were modeled with the correct paddle prop. Hmm something else to add to "Jug Dreams" ?

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/Diablos20Sig.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-22-2004, 10:26 AM
yeah the thunderbolt DM is weaker then almost everything except the zero http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

i once shot down 5 P47s in a Gladiator
and still had ammo left (offline but still)

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/

Diablo310th
04-22-2004, 11:34 AM
Actually the only weak part of the DM on the Jug is the engine and fuel leaks. The engine catches fire way to easy and it needs to have self sealing tanks modeled. I have pics of my Jug full of 30mm and 20mm holes from a Ki84 that almost made it back to base but ran out of fuel. Except for the fuel thing it flew fine.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/Diablos20Sig.jpg

chris455
04-22-2004, 12:40 PM
It's no fair when they're sitting on the runway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

And while we're at it, don't forget the one-shot-engine kill that has plagued the Jug since it's intro in FB.
Seems as though there are plenty of little things that got "left in" with the P-47 in FB that got "left out" in RL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sunburst-97th:
yeah the thunderbolt DM is weaker then almost everything except the zero http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

i once shot down 5 P47s in a Gladiator
and still had ammo left (offline but still)

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Aaron_GT
04-22-2004, 03:53 PM
Wood cladding, especially if laminated and
resinated, can actually be rather good at
absorbing battle damage. The construction
techniques of the Mosquito were somewhat
different to those of the Yak, but it was
considered to be rather sturdy in terms of
battle damage. Wooden skins tend to be
more problematic with regard to high speed,
however.

With regard to perceived plane sturdiness,
though, you have to take into account
several factors. For example a fragile
engine will lead to a plane going down,
even if the structure is strong. Also if
cockpit protection is good, then the pilot
is more likely to survive to pilot the
plane back. A belief that the plane can
make it will also mean a pilot may be more
likely to try to get the plane back. It's
almost impossible to control for all of these
factors in a scientific way from anecdotes
or statistic. Note that I am not saying the
P47 wasn't good in terms of the ability to
bring pilots home, just noting you have to be
careful how you consider the evidence and apply
it to the sim.

Aaron_GT
04-22-2004, 03:57 PM
"yeah the thunderbolt DM is weaker then almost everything except the zero"

Not really. The P39 is much more vulnerable,
for example. The overall structure seems weak,
and the engine in the rear seems very prone
to catching fire and exploding. I suppose
the engine does act as a big block of armour
though.

(Incidentally I got the P63 into a flat spin
last week - about the first time I've flat
spun a P39/63 since IL2).

clint-ruin
04-22-2004, 05:57 PM
Um, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Yak3 was one of the few all-metal models.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

chris455
04-22-2004, 10:08 PM
Clint, out of my area of expertise, but I beleive the Yak3's wings and empennage are of plywood.
Forgive if I err?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

clint-ruin
04-22-2004, 10:49 PM
From looking it up there seems to be some disagreement between it being mixed wood/metal, all metal, or all metal on VK107 models, or all metal only on the Yak3U/P and some other very limited production models.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

chris455
04-22-2004, 11:41 PM
Angellucci (Combat Aircraft Of WWII) implies that the 9U was the first all metal.
Still, I'd like a more definitive answer. You've got me curious now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

CaptainGelo
04-23-2004, 06:36 AM
yak3 is very easy to kill with few shots, and even smal damages in the wing makes it almost impossible to fight in, and engine is very fraggy 2...

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"&lt;----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG7_Rall
04-23-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Same thing. LuftWhiners are USA simmers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice stereotype, moron.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative11.jpg

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

Maple_Tiger
04-24-2004, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
Ok, first of all, I'm an avid Luftwaffe pilot, I fly the Dora mostly. Lately I've started fighting some US planes and among them is the P-47. On my first attack run I was more or less expecting to have to spend half of my 20mm ammo on one P-47, but I found it caught fire by just looking at it. I mean, I fired a short burst, wham, it was on fire. I've been able to reproduce this every single time. Either a wing snaps off or it just catches fire. Then I went back to fighting the Yak-3 again, which takes an insane amount of damage. Sorry to say, but something really is up with the Yak-3 DM. I'll try to post some tracks (when I can find a host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). It takes way too many rounds to take it down, about three or four times as much as the P-47. I am more or less convinced this is quite a serious bug in damage modeling which has probably been accidentally overlooked. The P47 is an absolute joke, it gets destroyed when a grain of sand hits the plane and the Yak-3 is insane, it eats bullets like cheese burrito's. I beg you to look into this, as it has more or less taken away the fun to fight P-47's in my beloved Dora. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PS. Don't call me an Ameriwhiner, I've always stood strong for the Luftwhiner cause, but this really is rediculous and I can see why most Indianerflyers get annoyed with this. The P-47 really is a paper plane.

Oh, I don't believe its bias either, so don't call me a whiner. It's abviously not bias, as the La-7 is a paper plane too. I just think a bug slipped into the Yak-3 and P-47 damage modeling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Lmao, That's why do not fly it much anymore. It's not much fun getting hit and loseing your controls 95% of the time.

Strange... I feel more safe in a P-51...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

LeadSpitter_
04-25-2004, 03:31 AM
p47 is the most undermodeled aircraft in the game, i see alot of people complaining about the 190a8 overheating and the gunsight getting broke from one hit. They need to try the p47

The same thing is happening to the p47d27 where the site breaks off from any hit. its has no rich mix, it overheats faster then any aircraft in the game besides the spit and hurricane.

Its 3000m speed is reaching 300mph 470kmph with 3000rpms 25% fuel and extra ammo.

100 pitch, rad closed, water injector enabled. Its roll rate is off as well and something is severly wrong with its energy management.

The p47d was suppost to be the fastest aircraft the US had in europe not only at 9100m but downlow also. It was replace by the p51 becuase of money and mantaince time.

In europe the p47 was the most produced us fighter/bomber and spent most of its time down low where its 4 bladed prop did excellent in europes thick air. The fb p47 is not even reaching its cruise speed 363 mph (584km/h) at 5,000 ft or its 10,000m speed of 433 mph (697km/h) at 30,000 ft, note this is with full fuel

Look at the 190a8 even the aircraft is reaching 570-580 in level flight under 3000m and never overheats with 103 trottle warpower and radiator open to 8

Hatts off to those who continue to fly the p47 in fb S~ hopefully it will be looked into and all us aircraft not getting thier full rich mix performance below 5000m.

The 190s can snap roll 360 degrees left and 360 degrees right before the p47d27 will get one full 360 degree roll. I fly mostly the 190a myself and notice p47s and p38s are the easiest planes to shootdown in the game then the mustang. I continue flying the p38 and p47 becuase they are so difficult to do well with it makes all other aircraft seem like a cakewalk to get kills with

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sun April 25 2004 at 02:45 AM.]

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sun April 25 2004 at 02:46 AM.]

Aaron_GT
04-25-2004, 04:08 AM
LeadSpitter:
The P47 was not the fastest of the US fighters
on the deck. It's speed (C to M) at sea
level is 335 to 365 (D22 350). The F4U
(flown by the FAA in Europe) manages 340 to
380 at sea level, the P51 a little less,
unless using high octane fuel (in which case
it can get near to 400). Perhaps the fastest
at standard rating was the P63.

LeadSpitter_
04-25-2004, 05:10 AM
the us army never used the p-63 in combat but just in training, the remaining models were shipped to france and russia. The corsair used the same engine of the p47n. the p47d in fact faster then the mustang at sea level fully fueled. Im not sure what octane. Talk to any of the pilots The mustang was superior in high speed manuverability and rate of climb.

The M was also faster then the D i dont know how you can say its the same as the c d series. I remember seeing someone post that here but its bs. The M was designed to intercept the v1s but did not come into service in time. It was faster then the d model more manueverable and had a better rate of climb then the c and d model.

P-47M performance was as follows:

Max speed: 470-480 mph @ 28,500 ft. Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration


Specifications (P-47N):
Length: 36' 1" (11.0 m)
Height: 14' 7" (4.44 m)
Wingspan: 42' 7" (12.98 m)
Wing Area: 322 sq. ft. (29.91 sq. m)
Empty Weight: 11,000 lbs (4990 kg)
Max Weight: 20,700 lbs (9389 kg)

Propulsion:
No. of Engines: 1
Powerplant: Pratt & Whitney R-2800-77
Horsepower: 2800 hp
Performance:
Range*: 800 miles (1297 km)
Cruise Speed: 300 mph (483 km/hr)
Max Speed: 467 mph (762 km/hr)
Ceiling: 43,000 ft (13,105 m)

check this newgroup, alot of wwii groundcrew pilots and mechanics who later raced these birds still alive post here

Newsgroup
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=soc.history.war.world-war-ii

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LuftLuver
04-25-2004, 06:53 AM
I'm afraid the P47 has a permanent "You Is Wrong" painted right down the side, never to be removed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


All your bases are belong to us.

Aaron_GT
04-25-2004, 07:26 AM
"The M was also faster then the D i dont know how you can say its the same as the c d series"

Er.. I didn't. The M was faster at sea level than the D - I gave a range
across D models and M models, and gave the D22 as a specific reference
point. I did not at any point say the M was the same as the C or D!
Basically the figures are 335 for the C, 350 for D22, 365 for the M.
Other versions slot into these ranges pretty much as you'd expect. I
take the M to be basically a straight-line development from the D (since
many Ms were essentially reworked Ds) as opposed to the more radical N.
365 is an impressive speed for the M, but by the time this was achieved
other planes (Tempest and Mustang III with higher octane fuels) were
significantly outstripping it by around 30mph at sea level.

" the p47d in fact faster then the mustang at sea level fully fueled"

That's the first time I've ever heard that. Do you have a reference?

It seems that although the RAF trialled two P47Ms they seemed to
prefer using Mustang IIIs with high octane fuel (P51B/C) or Tempests
for V1 interception over they P47s they could have used, which tends
to imply that the RAF considered the advantage lay with the Mustang
and Tempest.

I mentioned the P63 as an example of a US made plane available in the
sim with the highest rated (standard octane fuel) sea level speed,
and didn't intend to suggest that it was used by the USAAF in combat.

Basically the P47 is an average low level performer, no more, no less.
The big plus of the P47 is at high altitude, the regime for which it
was designed. Here it was competitive with the best, with some models
faster than anything else produced in significant numbers. The D models
were as fast as the Spitfire XIV or P51B, but got to those speeds earlier
in the war, and certainly before the likes of the 109K4. The M model was
unsurpassed by anything except possibly the Do-335 (there is some debate
over what the max speed of the Do-335 was) or the Martin MB5, but of
these the Do-335 was used in very limited numbers if at all, and the
latter never got beyond the prototype.

This is where I think people are getting the wrong impression about the
P47 - they are using it at low level, something it wasn't designed for,
and expecting it to dominate in the way it could at high level where
a lot of the classic escort engagements took place. The P47 was later
used down low, but that was largely because a new role was needed for
it to absorb the tooling and production already set aside for it, and
it could carry an impressive amount of ordnance. At low level, fully
loaded, it made a fast fighter bomber with good survivability. As a pure
fighter, it was not anything else than average in terms of speed low
down, though.

The true comparasion would be with something like a Ta152 - also
designed for high altitude work. The speed profiles with altitude
are generally similar to the D series P47.

crazyivan1970
04-25-2004, 09:56 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=329104263

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V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 10:16 AM
Thanks for that post crazyivan. I have two tracks illustrating the vulnerability of the P-47 fuel tank (and presumably the pilot - I get PK'ed all the time online - even in Razobacks) from everything from MG151/20 to ShVAK and UBS. Should I bother to send these in or wait to see whats been done? If these issues are essentially cleared up then I don't want to create extra traffic or concern.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
04-25-2004, 10:55 AM
I get shot down a lot and
I'd not noticed an excess
of PKs. The fuel tanks do
seem vulnerable. I'd need
to see where they are
located. FB only models a
single tank, so that means
you can unrealistically
leak it all.

One thing I've noticed is
that in some planes the
leak animation continues
even after the leak stops.
I don't know if this is the
case with the P47 as if
the leak is due to a LW
plane I normally loose
something like a wing before
I run out of fuel!

Liosha
05-04-2004, 07:32 AM
Wow, i can't believe this topic is abandoned!
Besides DM (and poorly made cockpit), i think that FM of this great airplane is drastically reduced by some reason. Bias? Personal attitude of developer? Lack of info? The plane belived by many to be only inferior to Bf-109K and famous Dora, - constantly stalls and spins should you try to perform even a slight maneuver in FB. And that is the plane about which is said - it does not spin easy!
I personally saw a guncam movie where P-47D sharply pulls up and left and jumps up from the FW-190 line of fire,- something you just cannot repeat in this game - merciless stall follows unavoidably.
Yes, P-47 is not a turn - dogfight airplane, but its not an Il-2 either. Yesterday i took P-47D10 and Bf-109E7Z against it, set the altitude to 5000m, the situation to Advantage -and guess what -in full power dive (where this fastest of all the P-47's is supposed to be at its best) got easily caught and shot by the AI Bf-109E pilot with average skill settings.
So not only this plane's FM is innacurate, in fact is terribly inacurate.
Developers, please take a look at this article:
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/allies/p47europe/p47europe.html
(It is in Russian language), analyze the table of performance at the buttom of that page, and please correct the P-47 performance in the upcoming patch.
P.S. Also i strongly suggest the respectable developer look throught these WW2 time P-47 movies: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-47.html

VW-IceFire
05-04-2004, 08:51 AM
Well Crazyivan did say that some changes were coming (across the board) so we can't argue stuff thats already been changed...we'd be making moot points.

So we have to wait.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

WWScout
05-04-2004, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=329104263[QUOTE]



Thanks Ivan. I sure hope this is telling us that there is hope of the P47 getting some much needed improvement. At least IMO. I love the plane but she sure has a weak chin and slow cadence at the moment.

Aaron_GT
05-04-2004, 10:04 AM
"Yes, P-47 is not a turn - dogfight airplane, but its not an Il-2 either. Yesterday i took P-47D10 and Bf-109E7Z against it, set the altitude to 5000m, the situation to Advantage -and guess what -in full power dive (where this fastest of all the P-47's is supposed to be at its best) got easily caught and shot by the AI Bf-109E pilot with average skill settings."

I take it you also tried it in the 109E against
an AI P47, too. If you didn't it might be a
test of your skill rather than the FM of the
plane. In any case, the AI uses a different
FM, so the fairer test is to either fly
human-versus-human or AI-versus-AI (and
really the former is better).

If I try to fly the 109 at 7500m myself, it
seems to struggle compared to the P47 to be
honest.

Liosha
05-04-2004, 10:59 AM
You're right about my skills (the joystick could have been a problem too).
But i also tried to set a fight just between AI pilots with skill level set to Excellent for P-47, and Average for Bf107E7Z and altitude at 7500.
All the Thunderbolt pilots do is just helplessly flying rounds, trying not to exceed the bank of 30 degrees. That is not what they really did during real dogfights.

P.S. Anyway the movie under the title High Altitude Flight and Aerobatics on this site:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-47.html
speaks for itself. The FM of P-47 in FB is nowhere near close to the real thing.

Aaron_GT
05-04-2004, 01:14 PM
It sounds like it migbt be
an AI issue. The AI is lousy
at flying some planes and AI
FMs can be suspect. I
suppose the real test is
human versus human, 1vl,
2v2, 4v4, etc, with people
taking different planes.
That takes weird AI FMs and
AI quality out of the
equation.

kondor999
05-04-2004, 09:10 PM
Hmmm....I'm just not seeing this problem when I fly the D-10. I'm a big Jug fan, and Yes, it is harder to fight with than, say, an La-7, but the plane seems near invincible if it starts with an E advantage.

BennyMoore
05-04-2004, 10:12 PM
If you have a three kilometer altitude advantage, sure... But if a Jug and any enemy plane takes off simultaniously and both fly their best, the Jug will go down. It can't outclimb, outturn, outloop, or outrun anything. It can only outdive, and it has to have been climbing for a much longer time than the other aircraft in order to obtain the advantage. Even then, you aren't guaranteed to win. You still have to be a far, far better than average pilot to get a kill, or perhaps just be incredibly lucky.

Now, fortunately, I'm not a Jug pilot. But I am a P-38 pilot, and I have things to complain about there as well... One thing is that I believe that it and not the Jug was the fastest United States propeller fighter. I'm not sure, though.

GR142-Pipper
05-05-2004, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
(...snip...)Then I went back to fighting the Yak-3 again, which takes an insane amount of damage. Sorry to say, but something really is up with the Yak-3 DM. I'll try to post some tracks (when I can find a host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). It takes way too many rounds to take it down, about three or four times as much as the P-47.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, the Yak-3's damage tolerance is NOWHERE near what a P-47's is. That is complete nonsense. If the Yak gets hit a time or two, it can certainly be felt.

GR142-Pipper

Mysticpuma2003
05-06-2004, 02:52 AM
Well, the Jug was a fantastic find for me in this sim. I loved it's agility, dominance and destructive power. I have to say that the people who complain about it's tendancy to smoke at the first hit are spot on. It never used to be like this, it flew like it should, taking damage and levelling destruction on all before it. However, now I see my plane take one hit and instantly spring a fuel leak, and then the next bullet starts my slow smoking descent to land before I catch fire. I am shortly releasinga film called "47-Heaven" which is dedicated to 'The Jug', and even shows turn-fighting (and winning) against a bf-109 and also the zero. I find it is a perfect all-round plane, when flown well, but it just needs the fuel and smoke issue addressing. Love it to bits though!

http://www.aqqm31.dsl.pipex.com/Mysticpuma.jpg

VW-IceFire
05-06-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
(...snip...)Then I went back to fighting the Yak-3 again, which takes an insane amount of damage. Sorry to say, but something really is up with the Yak-3 DM. I'll try to post some tracks (when I can find a host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). It takes way too many rounds to take it down, about three or four times as much as the P-47.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, the Yak-3's damage tolerance is NOWHERE near what a P-47's is. That is complete nonsense. If the Yak gets hit a time or two, it can certainly be felt.

GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are absolutely right. A small amount of damage to the Yak-3 will cripple its fighting ability (and I'm not talking about the AI here), stall one wing much quicker than the other and force the pilot to limp out of battle or risk stalling or spinning infront of the enemy.

Right now however it is almost more prudent to fly a Yak-3 than a P-47 for durability...the slightest hit and the P-47 will have a major fuel leak, light on fire, or the pilot will be killed despite the round being fired from dead 6 and despite the razorback, the armored seat, and a bunch of those things that made the P-47 one of the safest planes to fly under fire. But these are bugs I believe and ones that will be fixed. If these are still problems after the patch then we collect a bazillion tracks showing how porked things are and get them to do something about it.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

GR142-Pipper
05-06-2004, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFirehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif...snip...)
Right now however it is almost more prudent to fly a Yak-3 than a P-47 for durability...the slightest hit and the P-47 will have a major fuel leak, light on fire, or the pilot will be killed despite the round being fired from dead 6 and despite the razorback, the armored seat, and a bunch of those things that made the P-47 one of the safest planes to fly under fire. But these are bugs I believe and ones that will be fixed. If these are still problems after the patch then we collect a bazillion tracks showing how porked things are and get them to do something about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a small aside, it's always interesting to note what gets "broken" after a "fix" is offered for a particular aircraft. I often wonder why some performance enhancements bring with it problems to the same aircraft's damage model that previous to the "fix" were just fine. The adage, "If it isn't broken, don't fix it." applies but in a slightly modified way..."If you fix it, try not to break something else". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

GR142-Pipper

LuftLuver
05-06-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
"If you fix it, try not to break something else". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that the truth. The FB Jug has suffered from a chronic condition since day one: One step forward, two steps back...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

β"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Ά
"All your bases are belong to us."

BennyMoore
05-08-2004, 09:21 PM
If you're turn fighting a Jug against Schmidts and winning, you need to find someone to fly against who can actually fly. Toddlers don't count.

Which BF-109 was it? Not the G-2 or later, I hope.

Mysticpuma2003
05-10-2004, 06:20 AM
ahhhh well it was the 109-k I turned and burned, and then after taking a substantial amount of damage from his team-mate, I out-manouvered him, and took him down too! I know that a good 109 pilot should be able to out-fly the p-47 in a turn-fight, but I'm not too bad myself. Guess it comes down to practise! Still the whole sequence will be in '47-heaven' in about the next 2-3 weeks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.aqqm31.dsl.pipex.com/Mysticpuma.jpg

Mysticpuma2003
05-10-2004, 06:22 AM
I should add, I don't think 'post patch Aces Expansion v 2.0' I could do it, as I would start smoking and flaming straight away.....oh well, one lives in hope!

http://www.aqqm31.dsl.pipex.com/Mysticpuma.jpg

Scragbat
05-10-2004, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kondor999:
Hmmm....I'm just not seeing this problem when I fly the D-10. I'm a big Jug fan... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like big jugs too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
(sorry)

I don't really fly the P47. My bird of choice is the BF109. I think it is the most formidable all out plane out there. Great speed, manouverability and firepower and it copes admirably in most combat situations.

I'm sure the P47's DM is currently being addressed and all will be well when the patch comes out in two weeks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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