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View Full Version : a strange things about the heavy class



matt89connor
10-21-2017, 09:19 AM
have you notice? Only shugoki, as an heavy class, is very slow in dodge, conqueror and warlord has very good dodge, better than some hybrids , but what is the point of an heavy class? high dmg ? extra health?XD, this is strange

Halvtand
10-21-2017, 11:01 AM
I think the clue to the role of the heavy heroes lies in the recent nerf that WL received. His dodge was heavily nerfed to the point where some unblockable > attack-combos were guaranteed (Like the Gladiator ZA).In the comments we learned that the reason for this nerf was that he was supposed to rely on his shield and ability to block more than his ability to dodge. While this doesn't rhyme with the nerf of his parry-followup it does speak pretty clearly about how heavy heroes are supposed to be quite stationary.

WL and Conq has their all-block to help with this while Shug has hyperarmour (and a GB>heavy that allows him to make some space to regain it). WL, being I think by far the most offensive ot the three even has counter-attacks from the all-block whereas the most defensive (Conq) only can chain into his (because of this) very predictable shield back, which also lacks any kind of shielding as opposed to Valk's shield bash.

I do agree that Shug seems to have been given the short end of the stick when it comes to dodges. Sometimes it feels like the dodge isn't even a full step long. But I guess the devs are counting on his hyperarmour to help out.
Personally I wouldn't say that Conq or WL has a very good dodge. More often than not I find myself trapped in unblockable moves like Cent's kick or Valk's sweep, as well as regular attacks and combos simply because the dodge doesn't cover enough distance or doesn't move fast enough. Compare this to the dodge of assassin's who sometimes manages to perfectly time their dodge and end up behind you.

matt89connor
10-23-2017, 11:27 AM
I think the clue to the role of the heavy heroes lies in the recent nerf that WL received. His dodge was heavily nerfed to the point where some unblockable > attack-combos were guaranteed (Like the Gladiator ZA).In the comments we learned that the reason for this nerf was that he was supposed to rely on his shield and ability to block more than his ability to dodge. While this doesn't rhyme with the nerf of his parry-followup it does speak pretty clearly about how heavy heroes are supposed to be quite stationary.

WL and Conq has their all-block to help with this while Shug has hyperarmour (and a GB>heavy that allows him to make some space to regain it). WL, being I think by far the most offensive ot the three even has counter-attacks from the all-block whereas the most defensive (Conq) only can chain into his (because of this) very predictable shield back, which also lacks any kind of shielding as opposed to Valk's shield bash.

I do agree that Shug seems to have been given the short end of the stick when it comes to dodges. Sometimes it feels like the dodge isn't even a full step long. But I guess the devs are counting on his hyperarmour to help out.
Personally I wouldn't say that Conq or WL has a very good dodge. More often than not I find myself trapped in unblockable moves like Cent's kick or Valk's sweep, as well as regular attacks and combos simply because the dodge doesn't cover enough distance or doesn't move fast enough. Compare this to the dodge of assassin's who sometimes manages to perfectly time their dodge and end up behind you.

i agree in some things of what you say, but the abiity to dodge of conqueror and WL is very incredible XD isn't the distance of dodge, but is great ability to recover after that

Halvtand
10-23-2017, 02:25 PM
Well, according to the spreadsheet Conq actually has the worst dash recovery in the game at 800 across the board whereas Wl is snug in the middle with 500 for front, 600 for side and 700 for back dodge. Shug is at 600-700-800. The only one that has a worse value than Conq is offensive Highlander. Maybe Conq-players are just that good at dodging at the right time, eh?

/Halvtand, the not at all smug Conq-player.

Edit: Link to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

SenBotsu893
10-23-2017, 02:57 PM
Well, according to the spreadsheet Conq actually has the worst dash recovery in the game at 800 across the board whereas Wl is snug in the middle with 500 for front, 600 for side and 700 for back dodge. Shug is at 600-700-800. The only one that has a worse value than Conq is offensive Highlander. Maybe Conq-players are just that good at dodging at the right time, eh?

/Halvtand, the not at all smug Conq-player.

Edit: Link to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

yes but conq and WL dont need to recover from dodge animations because they can start the bash even somewhere in between the dodge anymation.
example: Warlord Headbutt can be started already after 100 ms in the forward dodge animation, essential giving him instand dodge recovery.

only Shugoki has nothing to cancel out his dodges wich i dont mind because he simply is one big fat mountain.
but i dont like that he has the lowest HP of the tanks if he cant even dodge like the others. the 25% damage panalty is just too much.
he is essentialy the only tank that can not tank.

Halvtand
10-23-2017, 03:45 PM
yes but conq and WL dont need to recover from dodge animations because they can start the bash even somewhere in between the dodge anymation.
example: Warlord Headbutt can be started already after 100 ms in the forward dodge animation, essential giving him instand dodge recovery.

only Shugoki has nothing to cancel out his dodges wich i dont mind because he simply is one big fat mountain.
but i dont like that he has the lowest HP of the tanks if he cant even dodge like the others. the 25% damage panalty is just too much.
he is essentialy the only tank that can not tank.

Indeed, but we were talking about dodge recovery, not whether or not they can launch attacks during their dodge or not. The OP thought that Shug had the worst dodge recovery of the three, which the numbers simply doesn't support. This is not the whole story though. We don't know if lag was a component in OPs game, we don't know the relative skills of the players present. We don't even know what the OP tried to do that these heavy heroes apparently can get away from so easily.

With this said I can only agree that Shug feels more than a little sluggish. His lack of dash-moves doesn't help as he'll dash and then just stand there waiting for something else to do.
I think that the biggest favour we can do ourselves is to stop thinking about Shug as a tank. Conq, WL, Valk, thay're tanks. Shug can't stand up to a gank as effectively, but in a 1v1 scenario or with a friend on his side he's a beast. I would rather put him in as a support than a tank.

SoulEavens
10-23-2017, 09:14 PM
Conq and Warlord have a fairly good Dodge and that is good like that, There are far FAR to many Moves in this Game that can only be dodged not blocked. Shugoki indeed has the Worst dodge wich is very unfair too him. The whole "you should block more" thing is a Bunch of Bull because a lot of Moves can only be dodged! And with slow *** Attacks you can rarely interrupt them. Shugoki is in dire need of a Buff, because in Dominion he is free Lunch if he gets ganked. Just spam unblockables while your Buddy Spams lights and he is dead.

He may avoid the First attack, but after that the dodge recovery will make shure that Shugo gets hit by the Unblockable Spam. Unless the Shugo player is VERY good at parrying he will have a bad time in Dominion. His Speed is also annoying, you can't catch anyone. You almost won a Fight? Congrats your Enemy legs it and you will never catch him. Shugo is a VERY good supporter if the Fight is a Clusterduck up close with a 4v4, he is also playable to decent in duels. As it is Shugo is no Tank at all.

Conq and Warlord on the Other hand are straight up Tanks. Conq even more than Warlord. I have myself (and seen other Players) hold of 4 Enemies at once, without taking much Damage/going into Revenge very often, until the Rest of your Team revives/respawns. They can hold out. Shugo really can't. He really needs a Speed and Dodge Buff.