PDA

View Full Version : Remove Revenge in 1 on 1 Situations



Breezy175
10-16-2017, 10:13 AM
Hello Guys, i play this game everyday. So i have a overall prestige of about 80. At the moment i main centurion because after the nerf he seems not to be that overpowered anymore. Now my problem is... When i play dominion and there is a 1 on 1 situation and i am nearly to win against my opponent he gets revenge. That happens everytime when i play centurion.

Really it sucks. Why u cant turn off Revenge in 1 on 1 fights? I think its not that hard to programm it. So that the revenge-o-metre dont fill up if you are just the target of 1 person.


I hope any Ubi-Employee will read this and answer to me if this will change.



Sorry for my English its not my native language.



Yours Faithfully

ArmorKing175 (PS4)

Charmzzz
10-16-2017, 10:48 AM
Yeah, and then give every Character that has Revenge Attacks a new Tier 2 Feat. Oh wait, and completely overhaul equipment again, because every Revenge build that comes with the cost of Defense and Attack Damage is now useless.

Halvtand
10-16-2017, 11:12 AM
Hello Guys, i play this game everyday. So i have a overall prestige of about 80. At the moment i main centurion because after the nerf he seems not to be that overpowered anymore. Now my problem is... When i play dominion and there is a 1 on 1 situation and i am nearly to win against my opponent he gets revenge. That happens everytime when i play centurion.
Really it sucks. Why u cant turn off Revenge in 1 on 1 fights? I think its not that hard to programm it. So that the revenge-o-metre dont fill up if you are just the target of 1 person.
I hope any Ubi-Employee will read this and answer to me if this will change.
Sorry for my English its not my native language.
Yours Faithfully
ArmorKing175 (PS4)

This is one of the most polite nerf-posts I've seen in a while, good work, mate. However, removing the revenge mechanic isn't a simple flick of a switch as the mechanic is tied into the art of war fighting system. To begin, why don't you tell us what you feel the point of the revenge system is, and then how that does not apply to the duel scenario?

Breezy175
10-16-2017, 01:01 PM
Sorry that this suggestion dont fit with your opinion Charmz. But the problem isnt any assasin class. I give you a example what yesterday happend. Dominion started and i was a centurion and went to point C. Then there was a enemy shugoki. I perfected him till to the last hit and he got revenge and was able to kill me. So the point is (its only my opinion) that every jab, kick and lions roar (when you gb someone and make the stamina damage) makes his revenge-o-metre higher. And that shouldnt be, because no one of this skills makes damage (only stamina damage) till you got the lvl 2 feat but how i said it was at the beginning of the dominion match.

I play a revenge build with my centurion. And the only explation i have is that the enemy gets more revenge with every move you sucessfully connect. And it doesnt matter if it does damage or not. So when i guardbreak someone i can make my lions roar 2 times and throw him then against a wall, then i did 3 hits without damage but he gets 3 points on his revenge bar. And thats my problem.

So Charmz really i dont care about asassins and i am not the kind of person who shouts for nerfs.

Summary:

Centurion got many melee attacks without damage (kick, punch, lions roar) and this attack shouldn´t feed the revenge bar when u dont have your second feat haymaker.


I hope that i listed my personal problem clearly and i hope for some responses we can work with.

Yours faithfully

Armorking 175

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 01:29 PM
This is one of the most polite nerf-posts I've seen in a while, good work, mate. However, removing the revenge mechanic isn't a simple flick of a switch as the mechanic is tied into the art of war fighting system. To begin, why don't you tell us what you feel the point of the revenge system is, and then how that does not apply to the duel scenario?

It is that simple though, you can take it off during custom matches so clearly it can be done. Its what the overwhelming majority of people want and it doesnt make sense that a mechanic setup to protect from multiple attackers is being used in 1v1 scenarios. I get that you are playing devils advocate, but this is still beyond stupid to say.

Halvtand
10-16-2017, 01:54 PM
It is that simple though, you can take it off during custom matches so clearly it can be done. Its what the overwhelming majority of people want and it doesnt make sense that a mechanic setup to protect from multiple attackers is being used in 1v1 scenarios. I get that you are playing devils advocate, but this is still beyond stupid to say.

Yes, it can be turned off in custom matches, but not in regular matches. This is because the whole system has a function to act to level the playing field. When you matchmake against a random player you have no control over who you're fighting or what kind of tactics that person may use. When you set up a custom match you have control over who gets to play and the need for such a failsafe is therefore nill.
You say that the system is in place to protect against multiple opponents, but what specifically about a multiple opponent scenario is the system there to protect against, and in what way can that specific thing in no way, shape or form occur in a duel scenario?
In this instance I'm actually not trying to play the devils advocate. I'm trying to promote understanding by going after the core of the issue. Breezy175 (and possibly yourself) obviously have a different idea of what the revenge system is supposed to do than Charmzzz and possibly myself. If we instead focused on these ideas as a basis for whether or not revenge would be suitable for a duel scenario or not, rather than getting bogged down in a "yes it is / no it's not"-frame of mind. As a side point it also gives a better discussion and more workable feedback for any mod that may dare to tread into these dark threads.

From my point of view I feel that the revenge system should definitely be in the duel scenario as well as all the others (of course with the option to turn it off in custom matches because there may exist reasons to do so). This is because the point of the revenge system is to allow a player a chance to "turn the tide" (important phrase) of a fight. This can apply to both a ganking situation and a duel situation as the tide in question is an onslaught of offensive maneuvers. The person who is stuck in a defensive position gets that one brief chance to turn the fight around.
Is there a problem? Yes, some classes are better at handling revenge as an offensive weapon than others (which is why it has been nerfed so many times). Also, some classes has the option to build revenge by being offensive (which is just BS) (this does not apply to game modes where feats are locked).
I feel that a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated. This is mainly a problem for people who likes to go all in and I feel that there should be some way to break such a cycle.

Yours truly.
Halvtand - beyond stupid.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 01:59 PM
Yes, it can be turned off in custom matches, but not in regular matches. This is because the whole system has a function to act to level the playing field. When you matchmake against a random player you have no control over who you're fighting or what kind of tactics that person may use. When you set up a custom match you have control over who gets to play and the need for such a failsafe is therefore nill.
You say that the system is in place to protect against multiple opponents, but what specifically about a multiple opponent scenario is the system there to protect against, and in what way can that specific thing in no way, shape or form occur in a duel scenario?
In this instance I'm actually not trying to play the devils advocate. I'm trying to promote understanding by going after the core of the issue. Breezy175 (and possibly yourself) obviously have a different idea of what the revenge system is supposed to do than Charmzzz and possibly myself. If we instead focused on these ideas as a basis for whether or not revenge would be suitable for a duel scenario or not, rather than getting bogged down in a "yes it is / no it's not"-frame of mind. As a side point it also gives a better discussion and more workable feedback for any mod that may dare to tread into these dark threads.

From my point of view I feel that the revenge system should definitely be in the duel scenario as well as all the others (of course with the option to turn it off in custom matches because there may exist reasons to do so). This is because the point of the revenge system is to allow a player a chance to "turn the tide" (important phrase) of a fight. This can apply to both a ganking situation and a duel situation as the tide in question is an onslaught of offensive maneuvers. The person who is stuck in a defensive position gets that one brief chance to turn the fight around.
Is there a problem? Yes, some classes are better at handling revenge as an offensive weapon than others (which is why it has been nerfed so many times). Also, some classes has the option to build revenge by being offensive (which is just BS) (this does not apply to game modes where feats are locked).
I feel that a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated. This is mainly a problem for people who likes to go all in and I feel that there should be some way to break such a cycle.

Yours truly.
Halvtand - beyond stupid.

Didnt say you were beyond stupid, but your post certainly is. It promotes more defensive play which is what we are trying to get away from. It's a terrible mechanic, but just like most things in this game you'll find one person who will defend it with no sort of reasoning behind it.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 02:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=R0wUQuWg7gs This video should be proof enough on why it should be removed. If you still think its fine in 1v1 after watching this then there is no rational discussion that can be had.

Tyrjo
10-16-2017, 02:09 PM
I agree 100% with the OP. Revenge active in 1vs1 scenarios is part of the turtle meta. Turtle up, get revenge, win.

There should be zero revenge gain when fighting only one person in my opinion. It would make the game so much better.

Breezy175
10-16-2017, 02:22 PM
Thank you all, I would not have expected with so much approval.

@Halvtand On the Video from Antonioj26 u see what i mean. In my opinion when the enemy is better than you why you should get a boost or a power up? Why should there be a come back only because the enemy is better? Thats definitely not fair.


Yours faithfully

Armorking175

Malyngo
10-16-2017, 02:37 PM
But the difference is in switching it off entirely vs. only switching it off if this seems to be a 1v1 scenario, wheras it should still trigger if it is Xvs1 (with X>1).
Switching it off in its entirety is easy, whereas balancing it out to give less revenge in 1v1 (or even none at all) but still triggering it in Xvs1 is clearly more work.

Giving no revenge at all in 1v1 will trigger revenge much later when the situation turns into Xvs1 than in the current system.
Balancing it out with giving more revenge in the Xvs1 situation will trigger it much earlier if the fight starts out with Xv1.

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 02:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=R0wUQuWg7gs This video should be proof enough on why it should be removed. If you still think its fine in 1v1 after watching this then there is no rational discussion that can be had.

I watched the entire video, you knew he had Revenge, all you had to do was faint a heavy after the gb to bait him into popping it, or threw him into the wall and demon embrace him since your grab trumps is revenge. You got greedy and you died for it.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 02:46 PM
But the difference is in switching it off entirely vs. only switching it off if this seems to be a 1v1 scenario, wheras it should still trigger if it is Xvs1 (with X>1).
Switching it off in its entirety is easy, whereas balancing it out to give less revenge in 1v1 (or even none at all) but still triggering it in Xvs1 is clearly more work.

Giving no revenge at all in 1v1 will trigger revenge much later when the situation turns into Xvs1 than in the current system.
Balancing it out with giving more revenge in the Xvs1 situation will trigger it much earlier if the fight starts out with Xv1.

We already know they can adjust the values of how much revenge is being built based on how many enemies you ar fighting. They've explained the formula a few patches ago. This is not a matter of not knowing how to but rather not wanting to for whatever reason.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 02:48 PM
I watched the entire video, you knew he had Revenge, all you had to do was faint a heavy after the gb to bait him into popping it, or threw him into the wall and demon embrace him since your grab trumps is revenge. You got greedy and you died for it.

Well that wasn't me for one and two shugo can't feint his golf swing. You're missing the point either way, this mechanic rewards the sit there and do nothing playstyle that's hated in this game and in fact it punishes the player is actively offensive.

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 02:50 PM
And removing Revenge in 1v1 scenario in Dominion sounds unrealistic. How will the game know when your in a 1v1 or not, multiple people can jump in at any time, and leave.
You said your Rep 80 so you know how the game works and how people play, if they know they are going to die to the next heavy they pop it. All you have to do is feint the gb and I know Cent can do it because he has one of the fastest heavy cancel into gb in the game. Just bait them into using it, and play defensive until it goes away or parry them and chunk them for being over confident. I swear people act like they just pick the game up use your brain man.

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 02:55 PM
Well that wasn't me for one and two shugo can't feint his golf swing. You're missing the point either way, this mechanic rewards the sit there and do nothing playstyle that's hated in this game and in fact it punishes the player is actively offensive.

It punishes players who stall games out, and take forever to kill each other. This only happened once to me because me and the other player kept blocking each others lights and the game dragged on and over time one of us got Revenge, but with shugoki he already takes forever to kill someone unless he throws you into the wall. If this guy picked any other hero other than Shugoki he would have killed the Raider before his Revenge even got half full.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 03:00 PM
And removing Revenge in 1v1 scenario in Dominion sounds unrealistic. How will the game know when your in a 1v1 or not, multiple people can jump in at any time, and leave.
You said your Rep 80 so you know how the game works and how people play, if they know they are going to die to the next heavy they pop it. All you have to do is feint the gb and I know Cent can do it because he has one of the fastest heavy cancel into gb in the game. Just bait them into using it, and play defensive until it goes away or parry them and chunk them for being over confident. I swear people act like they just pick the game up use your brain man.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GvcxWDbjreA

45 seconds in describes how it works showing that the game knows when you are in a 1v1 or not. You are missing the point, it's still promoting defensive play. You were just saying yesterday you hate fighting heavies because all they do is just stand there and stare so I don't get how you ar defending this

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 03:04 PM
It punishes players who stall games out, and take forever to kill each other. This only happened once to me because me and the other player kept blocking each others lights and the game dragged on and over time one of us got Revenge, but with shugoki he already takes forever to kill someone unless he throws you into the wall. If this guy picked any other hero other than Shugoki he would have killed the Raider before his Revenge even got half full.

So it's okay because it's only happening to characters who take a long time to kill someone with? That's such a stupid argument, basically what you are saying it doesn't happen that often so just leave it broken for the times that it does happen.

bmason1000
10-16-2017, 03:29 PM
But the difference is in switching it off entirely vs. only switching it off if this seems to be a 1v1 scenario, wheras it should still trigger if it is Xvs1 (with X>1).
Switching it off in its entirety is easy, whereas balancing it out to give less revenge in 1v1 (or even none at all) but still triggering it in Xvs1 is clearly more work.

Giving no revenge at all in 1v1 will trigger revenge much later when the situation turns into Xvs1 than in the current system.
Balancing it out with giving more revenge in the Xvs1 situation will trigger it much earlier if the fight starts out with Xv1.That's definitely worth mentioning, at the least.

Halvtand
10-16-2017, 03:39 PM
Didnt It's a terrible mechanic, but just like most things in this game you'll find one person who will defend it with no sort of reasoning behind it.

Except I just spent several paragraphs explaining my reasoning.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=R0wUQuWg7gs This video should be proof enough on why it should be removed. If you still think its fine in 1v1 after watching this then there is no rational discussion that can be had.

Alright. Let me tell you what I see. I see a player who very obviously does not understand their chosen hero. Shugoki is a slow but hard-hitting heavy hero with a special hyper-armour mechanic. Such a hero is supposed to be played with care, making the most of that armour, luring the enemy to make a mistake and then hitting hard where it counts. This player just attacks incessantly. By using this video as an argument you just proving the point i made in my previous post: "a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated". Had the Shugoki player simply cooled off for a few seconds when the Raider had filled his revenge bar or held off on the onslaught this match would've ended differently.
Also, you're the one that have proved yourself to be unable to have a rational discussion. You start off with name-calling and textbook rhetoric fallacies, goes further by trying to dismiss your interlocutors argument as reasonless despite quoting that very reason and then states that unless you're agreed with there can be no rational discussion.

At least come with some kind of argument. You make many claims, but no arguments to back them up, no explanations or clarifications. If this is how you do it then indeed "there is no rational discussion that can be had."

I've picked these following opinions from your posts, please tell us:
Its what the overwhelming majority of people want - Yes, but how is it right? Is the majority unable to be wrong? (This is called a majority fallacy),
it doesnt make sense that a mechanic setup to protect from multiple attackers is being used in 1v1 scenarios. - If the situations are similar enough, why not?
I get that you are playing devils advocate, but this is still beyond stupid to say - How come? I obviously believe that this is perfectly reasonable, explain.
Didnt say you were beyond stupid, but your post certainly is. - And these are undoubtedly separate entities?
It promotes more defensive play - How?
It's a terrible mechanic - Why?
but just like most things in this game you'll find one person who will defend it with no sort of reasoning behind it - How have you eliminated the variable that you simply cannot understand their reasoning? (The idiot fallacy).
This video should be proof enough on why it should be removed - Why?
If you still think its fine in 1v1 after watching this then there is no rational discussion that can be had - Why not?
You haven't given any kind of reasoning, argument or explanation for any of this, you simply state these opinions as facts.


@Halvtand On the Video from Antonioj26 u see what i mean. In my opinion when the enemy is better than you why you should get a boost or a power up? Why should there be a come back only because the enemy is better? Thats definitely not fair.
Yours faithfully
Armorking175

I'm afraid that what I do see is not what you'd like me to see here. Like I've written in my reply to Antonioj26 above I see a Shugoki player who does not understand their chosen hero. He should've controlled the fight (this is what all heavy heroes are supposed to do), played with care, making the most of that hyper armour, luring the enemy to make a mistake and then hit hard where it counts. This player just attacks incessantly. The problem highlighted in this video is not the revenge system, but an impatient player who is unable to pace himself to get a better result. Like I said in my previous post: "a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated". Had the Shugoki player simply cooled off for a few seconds when the Raider had filled his revenge bar or held off on the onslaught this match would've ended differently.

Now, personally i don't feel that this is as you put it "when the enemy is better than you why you should get a boost or a power up?". I don't think that it is a case of one player being more skilled than the other, but simply one player constantly attacking. If the Shug player is better, why did he miss and get blocked or countered so much? If the Shug player is better why didn't he realise that his actions were only filling up the Raider's revenge bar and try something else? If anything I'd say that the Raider is the better player of the two. He saw what the Shug was doing and used it against him. He went on the offensive only enough to lure out a response from the Shug which ultimately led to his (shug) defeat.

I do agree with you on the point that a "worse" player should not be given a boost or power up just because the enemy is better, but that is why you don't build a full revenge meter from just taking damage, you have to block to build it fast enough to use it before you die (just imagine the kind of meta game we'd have if you could just take damage and then revenge). Why should there be a comeback? Same reason there is a blue shell in Mario cart. This is a game, and games tend to be more enjoyable if everyone has a chance. Sure, noob-stomping is fun for a while, but it is the fights where both are down to 1 hp that makes you sweat.

The way I see it, if a player is better than the other, then it should be able to defeat the enemy before revenge becomes a thing or to handle that revenge when it comes. A player that simply attacks without end is not automatically neither good or bad, it's a tactic like many others, but if you're going to use that tactic you have to be prepared for the consequences just like every other tactic.

Yours truly.
Halvtand - beyond stupid.
(Can I set that as a signature in any way on this forum?)

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 03:49 PM
Except I just spent several paragraphs explaining my reasoning.



Alright. Let me tell you what I see. I see a player who very obviously does not understand their chosen hero. Shugoki is a slow but hard-hitting heavy hero with a special hyper-armour mechanic. Such a hero is supposed to be played with care, making the most of that armour, luring the enemy to make a mistake and then hitting hard where it counts. This player just attacks incessantly. By using this video as an argument you just proving the point i made in my previous post: "a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated". Had the Shugoki player simply cooled off for a few seconds when the Raider had filled his revenge bar or held off on the onslaught this match would've ended differently.
Also, you're the one that have proved yourself to be unable to have a rational discussion. You start off with name-calling and textbook rhetoric fallacies, goes further by trying to dismiss your interlocutors argument as reasonless despite quoting that very reason and then states that unless you're agreed with there can be no rational discussion.

At least come with some kind of argument. You make many claims, but no arguments to back them up, no explanations or clarifications. If this is how you do it then indeed "there is no rational discussion that can be had."

I've picked these following opinions from your posts, please tell us:
Its what the overwhelming majority of people want - Yes, but how is it right? Is the majority unable to be wrong? (This is called a majority fallacy),
it doesnt make sense that a mechanic setup to protect from multiple attackers is being used in 1v1 scenarios. - If the situations are similar enough, why not?
I get that you are playing devils advocate, but this is still beyond stupid to say - How come? I obviously believe that this is perfectly reasonable, explain.
Didnt say you were beyond stupid, but your post certainly is. - And these are undoubtedly separate entities?
It promotes more defensive play - How?
It's a terrible mechanic - Why?
but just like most things in this game you'll find one person who will defend it with no sort of reasoning behind it - How have you eliminated the variable that you simply cannot understand their reasoning? (The idiot fallacy).
This video should be proof enough on why it should be removed - Why?
If you still think its fine in 1v1 after watching this then there is no rational discussion that can be had - Why not?
You haven't given any kind of reasoning, argument or explanation for any of this, you simply state these opinions as facts.



I'm afraid that what I do see is not what you'd like me to see here. Like I've written in my reply to Antonioj26 above I see a Shugoki player who does not understand their chosen hero. He should've controlled the fight (this is what all heavy heroes are supposed to do), played with care, making the most of that hyper armour, luring the enemy to make a mistake and then hit hard where it counts. This player just attacks incessantly. The problem highlighted in this video is not the revenge system, but an impatient player who is unable to pace himself to get a better result. Like I said in my previous post: "a good player can either pace the fight in such a way that the enemy does not get their revenge or is able to back off when that revenge is activated". Had the Shugoki player simply cooled off for a few seconds when the Raider had filled his revenge bar or held off on the onslaught this match would've ended differently.

Now, personally i don't feel that this is as you put it "when the enemy is better than you why you should get a boost or a power up?". I don't think that it is a case of one player being more skilled than the other, but simply one player constantly attacking. If the Shug player is better, why did he miss and get blocked or countered so much? If the Shug player is better why didn't he realise that his actions were only filling up the Raider's revenge bar and try something else? If anything I'd say that the Raider is the better player of the two. He saw what the Shug was doing and used it against him. He went on the offensive only enough to lure out a response from the Shug which ultimately led to his (shug) defeat.

I do agree with you on the point that a "worse" player should not be given a boost or power up just because the enemy is better, but that is why you don't build a full revenge meter from just taking damage, you have to block to build it fast enough to use it before you die (just imagine the kind of meta game we'd have if you could just take damage and then revenge). Why should there be a comeback? Same reason there is a blue shell in Mario cart. This is a game, and games tend to be more enjoyable if everyone has a chance. Sure, noob-stomping is fun for a while, but it is the fights where both are down to 1 hp that makes you sweat.

The way I see it, if a player is better than the other, then it should be able to defeat the enemy before revenge becomes a thing or to handle that revenge when it comes. A player that simply attacks without end is not automatically neither good or bad, it's a tactic like many others, but if you're going to use that tactic you have to be prepared for the consequences just like every other tactic.

Yours truly.
Halvtand - beyond stupid.
(Can I set that as a signature in any way on this forum?)

Once again I didn't call you stupid, just your post. I'm sorry but you have way too much filler in your posts, I'm not going to read all of that. It's nothing personal but I'm at work so I avoid posts that don't just get straight to the point. Your main argument seemed to be it's there to turn the tides, which shouldn't be the case. You should not be rewarded for losing and you shouldn't be punished for winning or playing offensively. The reason you have matches where two guys just stare at eachother for 5 minutes is because it's too unsafe to play offensively.

I know this shugo and I guarantee he would destroy you outside of using this lame tactic and maybe even still. Your other argument is that you should just stop attacking as to not build meter which means you are killing your own momentum. you arent giving good reasons as to why it should be in but rather the counters to it.

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 04:01 PM
And you are missing mine, the OP said Dominion 1v1s not duels and then you show me a clip in which someone slips up and dies for it in a duel. Yes I hate fighting heavies who sit and stare, did he do that? No he actually fought and almost killed someone who was faster than him. I don't like revenge in duels but I like it in 4v4 modes, revenge is never problem for me in duels because I don't drag the game out, if someone turtles either I open them up or they succeed in turtling and kill me, never is Revenge a thought because I'm not a slow Heavy trying to be aggressive when my kit is limited and because I'm so slow at attacking now I'm worried about Revenge.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 04:19 PM
And you are missing mine, the OP said Dominion not duels and then you show me a clip in which someone slips up and dies for it in a duel. Yes I hate fighting heavies who sit and stare, did he do that? No he actually fought and almost killed someone who was faster than him. I don't like revenge in duels but I like it in 4v4 modes, revenge is never problem for me in duels because I don't drag the game out, if someone turtles either I open them up or they succeed in turtling and kill me, never is Revenge a thought because I'm not a slow Heavy trying to be aggressive when my kit is limited and because I'm so slow at attacking now I'm worried about Revenge.

Yes but it still builds in 1v1 dominion, the exact same scenario can happen and even moreso since stats are enabled. THe raider didn't do anything but block and wait to build revenge. I'm confused what your point is with this line "I hate fighting heavies who sit and stare, did he do that? No he actually fought and almost killed someone who was faster than him." You said you don't like matches where heavies aren't fighting back, that is what's happening in the video I posted except it's a vanguard.

So again your argument seems to be it doesn't effect you since you play offensive characters so just leave it in. Then don't chime in, this doesn't effect you. When discussions that PC players have about the balance issues they face I don't bring in my perspective as a console player.

Breezy175
10-16-2017, 04:34 PM
Hello Halvtand :)

I accept your opinion. But this game is skill based. Of course its a game and it should be fun but it isnt fun when you are nearly to win and u lose because of a game mechanic which isnt fair. Of course if i am so bad and just attack without mind then i accept it if i get punished. But for example the shugoki situation i told you at the dominion match. I connected with every hit and he didnt block anything and still got revenge before he was dead. I dont know if its just because he got 6 health bars but it sucks.

And @Helnekromancer

I understand the mechanic with prestige 80 yes but its not fair and thats the point of the threat. Everyone here in this threat have good points where we can discuss without you. Your imput in this discussion isnt anything we can work with.

Or do you think if you just say "You need to get better bla bla bla" that this works? But i know in this Community there are many ... But congrats you are the first ... in this threat :D

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 04:42 PM
Yes but it still builds in 1v1 dominion, the exact same scenario can happen and even moreso since stats are enabled. THe raider didn't do anything but block and wait to build revenge. I'm confused what your point is with this line "I hate fighting heavies who sit and stare, did he do that? No he actually fought and almost killed someone who was faster than him." You said you don't like matches where heavies aren't fighting back, that is what's happening in the video I posted except it's a vanguard.

So again your argument seems to be it doesn't effect you since you play offensive characters so just leave it in. Then don't chime in, this doesn't effect you. When discussions that PC players have about the balance issues they face I don't bring in my perspective as a console player.

Okay fine I get it, but in Dominion you also have to factor in Revenge Attacks and Revenge Gained both effect a 1v1 in Dominion something both charcters are opened to use. Would both of those be removed?

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 04:49 PM
Okay fine I get it, but in Dominion you also have to factor in Revenge Attacks and Revenge Gained both effect a 1v1 in Dominion something both charcters are opened to use. Would both of those be removed?

No not at all. All that needs to be done is adjust the multiplier so in 1v1 situation revenge doesn't happen or it builds very slowly. It seems charmzzz takes umbrage with investing in a stat just because it's useless in certain scenarios but that's the downside of it, it will be weak in 1v1 but in group fights you will shine. Wouldn't exactly be balanced if it was super effective across the board.

Breezy175
10-16-2017, 04:50 PM
@Helnekromancer Thats the point i fought vs the shugoki for example and i have max on revenge gain. But he got it before me. How i wrote before. I understand it that you should get punished if you attack just blind. But how i said i got the enemy with every hit. My Solution would be... If you fight vs 1 no one gets revenge (assasins with feats still gets it with each hit). But if its 1 vs X you get your Revenge Bar filled up. And i work as an Information Technican, so i know the basics of programming and i know that its not that hard to fix it that you dont get revenge in 1 vs 1.

I hope you understand my problem helnekromancer.


Yours faithfully

Fabrice Ebner

Helnekromancer
10-16-2017, 05:35 PM
@Helnekromancer Thats the point i fought vs the shugoki for example and i have max on revenge gain. But he got it before me. How i wrote before. I understand it that you should get punished if you attack just blind. But how i said i got the enemy with every hit. My Solution would be... If you fight vs 1 no one gets revenge (assasins with feats still gets it with each hit). But if its 1 vs X you get your Revenge Bar filled up. And i work as an Information Technican, so i know the basics of programming and i know that its not that hard to fix it that you dont get revenge in 1 vs 1.

I hope you understand my problem helnekromancer.


Yours faithfully

Fabrice Ebner

Okay I understand. I was out of line and I wasn't thinking rationally. I hate when mechanics are taking out of a game I enjoy because the majority doesn't it like it, and now the game is too easy and I start to get bored and lose interest in the game entirely because there is no challenge in it anymor. But that's not the case with what you guys are talking about and I jumped the gun. Once again I'm sorry and I was out of line. Breezy & Antonio.

*Sorry for not replying as fast in this thread got a sore throat.

Antonioj26
10-16-2017, 06:00 PM
Okay I understand. I was out of line and I wasn't thinking rationally. I hate when mechanics are taking out of a game I enjoy because the majority doesn't it like it, and now the game is too easy and I start to get bored and lose interest in the game entirely because there is no challenge in it anymor. But that's not the case with what you guys are talking about and I jumped the gun. Once again I'm sorry and I was out of line. Breezy & Antonio.

*Sorry for not replying as fast in this thread got a sore throat.

No worries man and I too share that same sentiment. Things are far too often called broken when they are far from it. I wouldn't even call this broken, it just doesn't make any sense to me the way it works.

Breezy175
10-17-2017, 07:39 AM
Hello Helnekromancer, everything is ok :) I am sure everyone of us got a stressful day yesterday. And yea i think the game isnt that easy because the only time i can handle gank situations is when i play with my lawbringer. So when i can kill 4vs1 by my own with every character then is the game to easy :D


Yours faithfully

Armorking175

UbiJurassic
10-17-2017, 08:08 PM
Hello Guys, i play this game everyday. So i have a overall prestige of about 80. At the moment i main centurion because after the nerf he seems not to be that overpowered anymore. Now my problem is... When i play dominion and there is a 1 on 1 situation and i am nearly to win against my opponent he gets revenge. That happens everytime when i play centurion.

Really it sucks. Why u cant turn off Revenge in 1 on 1 fights? I think its not that hard to programm it. So that the revenge-o-metre dont fill up if you are just the target of 1 person.


I hope any Ubi-Employee will read this and answer to me if this will change.



Sorry for my English its not my native language.



Yours Faithfully

ArmorKing175 (PS4)

Hey Breezy175!

We've certainly heard the suggestions from players before. Revenge was previously available in standard duels, but was turned off after receiving player feedback. While the programming for no revenge in Dominion may be easy to pseudocode, but it's more complicated in practice. I'll certainly forward the feedback over to the team for consideration though! :)

Breezy175
10-18-2017, 07:36 AM
Thanks for your attention UbiJurassic :D i hope we will get a solution soon :)

Halvtand
10-18-2017, 10:22 AM
Once again I didn't call you stupid, just your post.
As an agent I am responsible for all my actions. Just like you.

I'm sorry but you have way too much filler in your posts, I'm not going to read all of that. It's nothing personal but I'm at work so I avoid posts that don't just get straight to the point.
There is no filler in my post, if you’re not going to read posts that other people take their time to write I suggest you stop frequenting location where the written word is the standard method of communication. It is extremely disrespectful and does not do you any favours. That you are spending your work hours reading gaming forums does not constitute as an acceptable excuse nor does it give your words any validity. If you are serious about what you claim to be an issue – get serious, or get out.

Your main argument seemed to be it's there to turn the tides, which shouldn't be the case. You should not be rewarded for losing and you shouldn't be punished for winning or playing offensively.
Yes and no. Turning the tide is the point, you’d understand how and why if your read the post. Again you just state your opinion as fact, so I’m going to have to conclude that you have no counterargument. You do this again about winning and playing offensively. Mashing attacks are not in any way supposed to give you a victory, this is why we have blocks and parries in the game.

The reason you have matches where two guys just stare at eachother for 5 minutes is because it's too unsafe to play offensively.
The reason is mostly that the game is built upon a strong defensive game. Such a strong defensive game that some heroes such as Conqueror doesn’t really have any offensive options. Other defensive characters are also made to be played defensively. The matches where people stand and stare at each other will more often than not consist of two defensive heroes played by people who are trying to play their chosen hero they way they’ve been designed to be played. This is the problem with releasing heroes such as Centurion and Gladiator, heroes that are given tools to specifically counter the defensive heroes, but the defensive heroes are still not given any kind of offensive tools to get even. Or would you say that you’ve seen many matches between two assassins where both combatants have been unwilling to engage?

I know this shugo and I guarantee he would destroy you outside of using this lame tactic and maybe even still.
Oh, I know this one. It’s “And I've got a little TIP for you, get the POINT?” Or maybe “First you better stop waving it about like a feather duster.” Bah, something like that. I guess that what you were so clumsily trying to say was that the Shug player is indeed skilled, but then why doesn’t he play like one? Your own evidence contradicts you once more. You also make another claim without backing it up with any kind of argument or fact. You also have no idea of what kind of player I am, so your guarantee falls flat. That is however irrelevant to the point we’re discussing. But keep flexing those internet-muscles. Sooner or later someone is bound to be impressed.

Your other argument is that you should just stop attacking as to not build meter which means you are killing your own momentum. you arent giving good reasons as to why it should be in but rather the counters to it.
I have already stated why I want the revenge system to remain.
Yes, halting your attack is the way to go. As seen in the video you posted constantly attacking is apparently not an effective tactic. I emphasize again that this is your own evidence that you posted to make some kind of point about how bad the revenge system is, but only managed to highlight what a poor strategy incessant attacks are. But taking a break from attacking is just one thing you can do. You could also handle the revenge when it comes, which your Shug friend obviously could not. Fight with your head, not your muscles. I have stated both reasons why revenge should stay, and methods for countering it. Now I can only interpret your utter unwillingness to accept any of these as sheer stubbornness. You’ve spent another post complaining about others and not contributing

Hello Halvtand :)
I accept your opinion. But this game is skill based. Of course its a game and it should be fun but it isnt fun when you are nearly to win and u lose because of a game mechanic which isnt fair. Of course if i am so bad and just attack without mind then i accept it if i get punished. But for example the shugoki situation i told you at the dominion match. I connected with every hit and he didnt block anything and still got revenge before he was dead. I dont know if its just because he got 6 health bars but it sucks.
Hello Breezy175
I accept your opinion as well. I fully understand that losing a fight that was going your way can be extremely frustrating. I’m not talking from some kind of skill-related or moral high ground. I’ve been there as well, I’ve gotten cocky and thrown out that last attack, hoping that the revenge won’t trigger. It doesn’t feel good, you feel robbed. But I wouldn’t go so far as to call it unfair. It is after all my actions that have led to the revenge, I could’ve done something differently. That said, revenge used to be extremely unfair, back before they fixed the revenge-building gear. Back when you could stack revenge-builds and get a full meter in three attacks. Back when some heroes could pop a revenge from nothing and spam an almost uncounterable flicker-ZA-cancel. That was not ok.

I don’t know which fight you’re talking about, but if it was in dominion then perhaps the guy already had his revenge half filled when your fight started? Maybe his meter was filled more rapidly because your attacks do more damage? I don’t know. I can only agree with you that it sucks, no question about it.
In the end I think that the complete removal of revenge will bring more problems than it solves. Ganking will undoubtedly become more rampant and the lone heavy that is doing what he’s supposed to and boosting a captured area will probably disappear from the game in favour of heroes which can drain stamina, attack from a distance or engage and disengage at will. Revenge didn’t exist when they first started with public tests, but was put it in pretty quickly after that as the devs saw a need for something to level playing field.

Let’s try to be a bit constructive. Maybe there is something else that could be done with approximately the same end result, but that doesn’t rely on this kind of system? The first thing that comes to my mind is something like a stacking damage reduction based on the number of people that are currently locked onto you? 0% at one, maybe 30% at four or something.

Breezy175
10-18-2017, 10:52 AM
Hello Halvtand :)

Nice to hear you :P So its impossible the the revenge bar was half filled at the shugi, because the match started and we meet us at one point so he dont encountered any enemy before. But my point was that for example centurion got many attack which dont do physical damage only stamina damage. And i think that the Revenge System dont make a difference in what kind of hit you got. Instead you get for every hit a lil plus on your revenge bar. And i think that shouldnt be.

So for example : When we say you get 10 revenge points for a light attack, it should be like 3 revenge point for the grab punches (lions roar) which only do minimal stamina damage. That would solve the problem. Or when you hit with the kick then the kick only give 3 revenge points and the follow up light the normal 10 revenge points.

This Numbers are just a example, i dont know the real numbers.


Yours faithfully

Armorking175 :)

Halvtand
10-18-2017, 11:19 AM
Hello Halvtand :)

Nice to hear you :P So its impossible the the revenge bar was half filled at the shugi, because the match started and we meet us at one point so he dont encountered any enemy before. But my point was that for example centurion got many attack which dont do physical damage only stamina damage. And i think that the Revenge System dont make a difference in what kind of hit you got. Instead you get for every hit a lil plus on your revenge bar. And i think that shouldnt be.

So for example : When we say you get 10 revenge points for a light attack, it should be like 3 revenge point for the grab punches (lions roar) which only do minimal stamina damage. That would solve the problem. Or when you hit with the kick then the kick only give 3 revenge points and the follow up light the normal 10 revenge points.

This Numbers are just a example, i dont know the real numbers.


Yours faithfully

Armorking175 :)

Thank you for the clarification, now I see what you're talking about.
This was part of a fix that was supposed to let people fight back against heroes like Centurion without nerfing them. Regular attack build revenge at a percentage of the attack damage (or something like that). I don't know the real numbers, so I'll leave it to someone that does.
Stamina-attacks generally don't do damage, so they have a fixed value of revenge-building instead. This value used to be 10, but was recently raised to 30 for the reasons I stated above. So if you go after the stamina of your opponent a lot by GB-punching, kicking or doing the other stamina-attacks that Cent has the enemy will build revenge fast. My suggestion is to mix it up a bit, after the stamina is drained do a punish of some sort and then let the guy cool off. It is tempting to keep the momentum going and to keep the enemy out of stamina, but that builds revenge really fast.
I hope this helps, at least a little bit.

Yours truly.
Halvtand.
(You know that we're just a bunch of forum-lurkers, right? You don't really have to be that polite. It's nice to see though.)

Breezy175
10-18-2017, 12:39 PM
Yea, so i need to use an other mixup, whenever i play i want to do 100% dmg/effectivness i can with my combo. So even when the enemy was allready out of stamina i still used the gb punches to keep him out of stamina. But i wont do that anymore.

Its very important for me to be polite and respectful to others. I mean the for honor community is very very very salty, so its a light shine when there a atleast a handfull of us which are the opposite of salty :)

So i keep going with my politeness haha :P

Yours faithfully

Armorking175

Halvtand
10-18-2017, 02:15 PM
Hello Breezy175
Yeah, give it a try and see how you like it. Some players have insane stamina recovery so you may not get more than one punish for OOS anyway. It's hard to change a habit, but I'm sure you'll do it if you try. Also, keep being you. We need people like you on this forum.

Yours truly
Halvtand.

Breezy175
10-18-2017, 02:49 PM
Hey Halvtand, thanks for your suggestion. Stay like you are :) Do you play on Ps4? Add me if you do :)

The_B0G_
10-18-2017, 06:35 PM
I agree with OP. Turtling and not being able to do more than eat the odd hit and block without ever throwing an attack of your own should not be rewarded. The only people who want revenge in 1v1 to stay are the people who turtle and abuse it in 1v1.

I'm an aggressive fighter in this game and if there wasn't already enough benefits to turtling, theres this. You end up getting a turtle down to his last bar of health and in the middle of a combo he hits his revenge and knocks you to the ground and in 3 hits you're on even footing again, both low health.

1v1 revenge needs to go, it's supposed to give you an edge in outnumbered situations, not turn the tide in a fair fight because you're not attacking and losing.

DoctorMcBatman
10-18-2017, 07:06 PM
I agree with OP. Turtling and not being able to do more than eat the odd hit and block without ever throwing an attack of your own should not be rewarded. The only people who want revenge in 1v1 to stay are the people who turtle and abuse it in 1v1.

The mythological defense meta changes should address this adequately. Or that's the intention at least.

The_B0G_
10-18-2017, 07:17 PM
The mythological defense meta changes should address this adequately. Or that's the intention at least.

My fear is by the time dedicated servers and the defense meta changes come, the winter release games will steal all the population left of this game.

DoctorMcBatman
10-18-2017, 07:21 PM
My fear is by the time dedicated servers and the defense meta changes come, the winter release games will steal all the population left of this game.

Shadow of War is already pulling me from FH. I just do the daily orders and whichever contract orders are easiest. Usually 2-3 games is all it takes (though last night it took 6 games because the first 4 crashed).

Elex came out yesterday, and I do want that. Then AC: Origins next week, and Battlefront the week after that.... and then we have Kingdom Come and Mordhau next year. As much as I like FH, if these games allow for me to play them for more than 10 minutes without crashing or having to endure another long-winded loading process, I can't see myself continuing FH much longer. :S

(though I'm sure I'll still play, but I won't be happy about it!)

SoulEavens
10-18-2017, 09:05 PM
I think Revenge is good as it is now. Of course sometimes you absolutly Trash someone he gets Reveng at the last second an kills you. But hey thats the remainder that one shouldn't get too cooky. Revenge is the Mechanic in Dominion that gives you a chance, to actually survive being outnumbered. It is extremly importend to the slower Classes, since they can't just run away when they are facing Assassins, because they will almost immideatly catch up and kill them.

If you watch out, and don't attack to recklessly, you can get them to waste thier Revenge. Is that Dangerous? Of course. Revenge should really stay like it is. If it is changed there should be more along the lines of being immune to unblockabless/shoves btw: being able to block them and in exchange not getting an Attack/Damage Buff.

The_B0G_
10-18-2017, 09:15 PM
Shadow of War is already pulling me from FH. I just do the daily orders and whichever contract orders are easiest. Usually 2-3 games is all it takes (though last night it took 6 games because the first 4 crashed).

Elex came out yesterday, and I do want that. Then AC: Origins next week, and Battlefront the week after that.... and then we have Kingdom Come and Mordhau next year. As much as I like FH, if these games allow for me to play them for more than 10 minutes without crashing or having to endure another long-winded loading process, I can't see myself continuing FH much longer. :S

(though I'm sure I'll still play, but I won't be happy about it!)

I been killing shadow of mordor all week lol I've lost interest in the assassins creed series but I played the beta for battlefront and Kingdom Come, both are going be to great games. Also COD is coming out soon as well, bad timing for any major changes with FH.

DoctorMcBatman
10-18-2017, 09:41 PM
I been killing shadow of mordor all week lol I've lost interest in the assassins creed series but I played the beta for battlefront and Kingdom Come, both are going be to great games. Also COD is coming out soon as well, bad timing for any major changes with FH.

I loved the space map in BFII beta, thought Theed was sort of meh. I've been trying to savor SoW, only have about 10 hours on it so far.

I quit Unity half way through, and didn't buy Syndicate. But since AC:O is a bit of a reboot, and made by the team that did Black Flag (or so I'm told), I'm giving it a shot. I'm just not interested in CoD, no matter the setting. I'd love a modern Battlefield WWII game though.

Also, to keep moderately on topic: 1v1 revenge complaints are another great reason to have a permanent hardcore mode that doesn't have revenge/feats/HUD/etc..