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View Full Version : Kawanishi N1K2-J "Shiden-Kai" 'George'



Flydutch
06-19-2004, 02:46 PM
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W2/N1K-34.jpg

This powerfull radial engine fighter evolved from the N1k-1 "Kyofu" (wich was designed to become the most potent floatplane/fighter in the world)

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W/Rex-6.jpg

that evolved the other way around as the Mitsubitshi 'Zero' carrier fighter from wich e the 'Rufe'floatplane develloped.

The Shiden kai or 'Violet Lightning bolt' N1K2-J of wich 415 where built, carried 4 x 20mm cannon in the wings, had the NK9H Homare 21 radial at 1990hp. max speed of 369mph/ 594km/h at 5600m.

This land based Navy fighter (Carrier versions where on the way)was tough, armoured, self sealing tanks had a spacious cockpit and offered a very good view outside It was A excellent turner and its pilots found that they could easely fight the faster F6F Hellcat.
The Elite 343 Kokutai IJN group chose thisexellentfighter and became the best Navy outfit fighting B-29 and P-51's in the defence for Japan.
on one occasion on Februari 1945 IJNavy Pilot Kinsuke Muto pilot fought with 12 F6F Hellcats downing 4 of them and chasing the others away!

I think this little bird should not be missing in action in PF!

Flydutch
06-19-2004, 02:46 PM
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W2/N1K-34.jpg

This powerfull radial engine fighter evolved from the N1k-1 "Kyofu" (wich was designed to become the most potent floatplane/fighter in the world)

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W/Rex-6.jpg

that evolved the other way around as the Mitsubitshi 'Zero' carrier fighter from wich e the 'Rufe'floatplane develloped.

The Shiden kai or 'Violet Lightning bolt' N1K2-J of wich 415 where built, carried 4 x 20mm cannon in the wings, had the NK9H Homare 21 radial at 1990hp. max speed of 369mph/ 594km/h at 5600m.

This land based Navy fighter (Carrier versions where on the way)was tough, armoured, self sealing tanks had a spacious cockpit and offered a very good view outside It was A excellent turner and its pilots found that they could easely fight the faster F6F Hellcat.
The Elite 343 Kokutai IJN group chose thisexellentfighter and became the best Navy outfit fighting B-29 and P-51's in the defence for Japan.
on one occasion on Februari 1945 IJNavy Pilot Kinsuke Muto pilot fought with 12 F6F Hellcats downing 4 of them and chasing the others away!

I think this little bird should not be missing in action in PF!

WUAF_Badsight
06-19-2004, 03:09 PM
me neither http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Penguin_PFF
06-19-2004, 03:12 PM
Just FYI, the top photo is a fake.

The interim N1K1-J Shiden was actually much more important in terms of numbers and operations than the Shiden-Kai. They made something like 90 Kyofu, 1000+ Shiden (which were used in the Philippines and Okinawa, among other places), and about 500 Shiden-Kai.

This has all been discussed here. Why would anybody NOT think something should be in PF? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RedDeth
06-19-2004, 03:53 PM
shiden kai is needed absolutely. but to say it was better than the hellcat is ridiulous. hellcat was faster which you mentioned but it was MUCH better at high altitudes and had better dive characteristics. i believe hellcat was better protected also. maybe on the deck shiden kai was equal to it but at altitude hellcat held all the cards

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1083458407_knightsmove-taylor.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
06-19-2004, 07:49 PM
to say the Hellcat would have been better is rediculous .

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ki_Rin
06-19-2004, 08:16 PM
It was originally tested with contra-rotating props in the seaplane version...too bad that didnt work out, would have made it that much more potent...plus far easier for the increasingly less-trained jp pilots to handle...

"Consequences are for lesser beings; I am Ki-Rin...that is sanction enough"

SkyChimp
06-19-2004, 08:47 PM
If you rolled rolled them both down opposing hills into each other, I'm certain the Hellcat would come out on top.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/hellsig.jpg

Flydutch
06-20-2004, 02:14 AM
Ok,
even more so i understand that a lot of Hellcat fans would love to see the Shiden-Kai in PF because they are sure they can take on 12 of them!

In CFS2 the Shiden-Kai was my favorite A/C,
I prefer cannon over MG, I think the sound of the roaring radial was done excellent in CFS2!
Just like the La5 & 7 in this sim it handeld like a rodeobull on steroids on the ground.

Something I remind from CFS2 as a good thing the fact that that sim was made showing respect to both the American and Japanese people.
The devellopers used veterans from both sides to tell their story.

Pearl Harbour, Kamikaze and the atom bombs were left out of the sim, I think to not inflame old pains.

Anyway I am happy to be able to fly this sim and virtualy satisfy my hunter instinct!





<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
If you rolled rolled them both down opposing hills into each other, I'm certain the Hellcat would come out on top.

_Regards,_
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/hellsig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flydutch
06-20-2004, 02:17 AM
Penguin,

How do you know that that colour photo is a fake?

VF-3Thunderboy
06-20-2004, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pearl Harbour, kamakazi and the atom bombs were left out of the sim, I think to not inflame old pains.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the Kamakazi are enjoying a quazi-comeback in Japan, as heros! There are a few Pro, (and one sort of "anti")Kamakazi museums.Nationalism is on the rise also, fired by, you guessed it, WW2 Vets! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Art-J
06-20-2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Penguin,

How do you know that that colour photo is a fake?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I recall, this photo was already posted somewhere on this forum (or FB one) quite a long time ago, by SkyChimp I suppose. The question of it's authenticity was discussed as well. The guys came to conclusion that planes silhouettes were pasted and retouched from another B&W shot, which was posted in the same thread as a reply. I was unable to take part in the discussions, since I found that thread little late and all photos were "red X-ed" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I remember the discussion was about "rare color wartime photo of George", so I guess this was the same one You've posted here. You may try to search archives for this thread... or maybe Penguin himself will give us some details about it?

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

Penguin_PFF
06-20-2004, 04:20 PM
I don't have any details to give, because you saw the exact same thread I did. The black and white photo that was used to make that "color" image was posted in that thread. It's three Shiden-Kai sitting on the ground with the engines running. Look at the elevators.

I_Jg3_BARKHORN
06-20-2004, 04:38 PM
The sea plane version was called a kyufu(sp)? (cn) rex. It actually went into prodution and was used. I seem to recall the george was a development of the rex; it was the N1k1 shiden (cn)George. The N1k1 was later redesinged in to the n1k2 shiden Kai. Close to a whole new plane. A point of interest. The n1k2 had an automated flap systm that was used in combat. It worked kind of like a fowler flap. Well Kind of. Anyway it was quite the opponet for the hellcat. Sugita engaged 6 hellcats downing four. He could not get the rest he ran out of ammo. In fact the engagement was talked about in Saburo Sakai's book. I also seem to recall that the us navy put word out not to engage this aircraft, unless you had overwelming odds. The picture at the bottom are real aircraft fixed up to look like they are flying. Actually aircraft 15 (Kanno's plane) was on the ground at start up or shut down. Kanno was lost in a b 24 attack he hit the trigger and the wing cannon and ammo went boom, splintering the wing. I am at work and this is what i recall. I have the stuff at the house.

Penguin_PFF
06-20-2004, 06:34 PM
Kyofu: N1K1, 1943+, ~90 built, meant as a better alternative to the Rufe. Designed for forward operations from shore bases on a fast-moving marine front. The war didn't work out this way.

Kawanishi engineers had the idea to take the Kyofu, exchange floats for gear, and get a very good land plane as a result. Management agreed and that generated the N1K1-J Shiden (1943/44), over 1,000 built, used at the Philippines and Okinawa among other places. Good plane, mechanically unreliable but powerful and durable (for a Japanese aircraft).

The Shiden was good, but it had more potential than payoff, so they went back to the drawing board and worked to get out all the bugs. Visibility-restricting mid-wing was moved down which eliminated the two-stage landing gear, fuselage was completely re-engineered resulting in something like 30K fewer parts, etc. This resulted in the N1K2-J "Shiden-Kai"; a serious improvement on a good plane, but it wasn't über by any means. It was certainly not a Japanese Bf 109K or Ta 152. Saburo Sakai called it a third-rate piece of **** (his words, not mine) and regardless of his personal bias, he must have had SOME reason for not thinking it was a Hellcat-eating Corsair-chewing Terminator with wings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Everybody stains their jeans talking about the super-planes, but the truth was that the plain old ugly, dumpy Shiden was more important for the war effort at large.

TimTam27
06-21-2004, 01:34 AM
The N1K2-J is almost certainly in PF. I don't know if it will be flyable or AI but somebody has made enough of the 3-D model for it to get to the final painting stage.
I don't want to say how I know because it might get the modeller in trouble. But it was not a deliberate leak.

Penguin_PFF
06-21-2004, 03:48 AM
Uh... I am that modeler.

I obviously won't give any details, but I will say that your post is generally not accurate.

[This message was edited by Penguin_PFF on Mon June 21 2004 at 03:53 AM.]

Flydutch
06-21-2004, 10:31 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
"This resulted in the N1K2-J "Shiden-Kai"; a serious improvement on a good plane, but it wasn't über by any means. It was certainly not a Japanese Bf 109K or Ta 152. Saburo Sakai called it a third-rate piece of **** (his words, not mine) and regardless of his personal bias, he must have had SOME reason for not thinking it was a Hellcat-eating Corsair-chewing Terminator with wings."]

Don't you think that is just the opinion of a Ace pilot totaly hooked to his old Zero?

It is been commented over and over again by aces that they prefer the trusty old bird that they new inside out, new planes brought along new vices that somebody had to expierence during a operation and could cost him his life!

Many LW experten prefered the Bf109 Ferdinand over the later Gustaf's they didn't need the extra fire power the leser marks men needed and prefered the light more manuevreble version just like the USAAF aces prefered the P-51 B/C model over the D.....and Maybe certain Japanese ace's.....

You know a lot about this particular type I hope you will do it credit not all virtual pilots are good enough to fly better in the older (Zero) type and beat the Hellcat and Corsair generation!

BTW I Will be Fliyng the USAAF And Navy A/C too and i like to have some serious opposition aside from Sakai in his Zero.

Penguin_PFF
06-21-2004, 11:55 AM
The Shiden was an improvement over the Reisen in a lot of ways (speed, firepower, and durability), but it came at a serious price, mainly on the ground. From what I read and see, the airplane wasn't all that well put together and between the Homare engine, which itself was trouble no matter what plane it was installed in, and the gear system, there was quite a lot of effort required to get them into the air relative to other types. Certainly Sakai preferred the Reisen, and all things considered, in the long view he was probably right. Harsh, maybe, but it's understandable, especially if he was referring to the Shiden as well as the Shiden-Kai.

Imagine his POV... He's used to a nimble, well-built Reisen. Now here comes a firm that's never made a serious fighter before and they turn out this ungainly, ugly, overly complex, cantankerous beast which is marginally faster than the Reisen and has extra guns, but is (IIRC) not as maneuverable. Then it takes them a whole extra half a year, with the help of more experienced companies, to improve it. I would think it was natural for Sakai to look at that and just say "no thanks".

None of this changes the fact that the Shiden (and to some extent, the Shiden-Kai) were probably the most important IJN types after the Zero. They just weren't Unstoppable Death Machines. No plane was, really...

Except maybe the Corsair. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sugaki
06-21-2004, 12:15 PM
I think the Shidenkai's superior to the Hellcat depending on altittude, but it sure won't chew them for lunch. If you don't believe that, at the very least they fought on par with allied planes. Squirmishes between Shidenkais and F6Fs, Corsairs usually came up about even in terms of losses (when taking into account both the US and Japanese reports).

Saburo Sakai's view comes after the fact that he lost one eye and didn't fly the plane in actual combat, so it's hard to put too much value to his words. The A6M5 Zero was 34km slower, had weaker armament, weaker armoring, more sluggish high speed controls. The Shidenkai still flew rings around allied planes, meaning the Zero's turn-rate wouldn't much more of an advantage over the Shidenkai.

The Shidenkai's affect on the war is minimal, and Shiden's were deployed in far greater numbers. Still, nobody would want to fly the Shiden--two stage landing gear took over a minute to deploy, and even then it often snapped when landing.

As Skychimp said, roll the George and Hellcat down opposing hills and the F6F would indeed win http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I_Jg3_BARKHORN
06-21-2004, 06:10 PM
Hey Penguin_PFF it is the broadcord or narrowcord bird??
S!

Penguin_PFF
06-21-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by I_Jg3_BARKHORN:
Hey Penguin_PFF it is the broadcord or narrowcord bird??
S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really think I'm going to answer that question? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Somebody here posted that the Shiden's gear took between 20 and 40 seconds to retract. That's actually a pretty serious handicap if you get ambushed right after takeoff... Important enough to be accurately simulated in the game, I think. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Somewhere in an Osprey book on Japanese aces there was an account of one experienced Japanese Shiden pilot who was killed after takeoff, and I'm wondering if he couldn't get into combat because he was waiting for the gear to come up. Not that your chances are all that good when you get caught on the takeoff run, but it couldn't have helped.

I don't think the Shiden was all that bad, when it was working. Ugly, sure, mechanically and aesthetically both. But if the Shiden-Kai was the Japanese F6F, then the Shiden was the Japanese F4F.

I_Jg3_BARKHORN
06-21-2004, 09:51 PM
S! bro it was just for me. I have an interest in this aircraft. I am also a scale modeler, and well have some detail stuff on certain types. I am not sure how many folks know what I am talking about, although I am sure there are some that do, and other that will go look it up. Just a small interest of mine. Not a pry or info hunt lol. I hope to see it finished. I know that story. I have an artist interp around here somewhere. I think the pilot is the same one I mentioned in a earlier post Sugita. A little excerpt
"Sugita was killed on 15 April 1945 by LCdr Robert "Doc" Weatherup of VF-46. Capt Genda ordered a scramble when enemy aircrafts were approaching Kanoya. However, they arrived sooner than expected, and he gave orders for the standby pilots to abort takeoff. However, Sugita and his wingman, Toyomi Miyazawa either ignored the abort order or didn't get it. Both jumped into their aircraft as Hellcats became strafing and rocket bombing the airfield. Sugita managed to take off, reached about 400 feet, and Weatherup circled and got on his tail. The George was hit and Sugita nosed over and exploded. Then Weatherup took care of Miyazawa."
For some good reading look at the title Genda's blade.
S!

Penguin_PFF
06-21-2004, 10:37 PM
Well I know that there's a chord difference between George 11 and George 21, but if you know of ANOTHER difference within the different models, I'd be interested to hear it. I thought you were trying to figure out which variety of George a given modeler may or may not have been working on. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There were wing design changes between the N1K1-J/Ja, the Jb, and the Jc. The Jb needed to take all four guns in the wings, and the Jc was a stronger wing with two more bomb racks, although I've never seen a drawing of that anywhere. Were there planform changes as well? Or were you talking about the difference between the Shiden and Shiden-Kai?

The encounter was the death of Sugita, I just found the relevant part in the aces book. The late date (April 1945) means that he was probably flying a Shiden-Kai. In that case, landing gear retraction would not have been a problem.

Blutarski2004
06-22-2004, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
Well I know that there's a chord difference between George 11 and George 21, but if you know of ANOTHER difference within the different models, I'd be interested to hear it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... IIRC, the early models were mid-wing with very lengthy and troublesome landing gear. Later models were re-designed to a low-wing configuration with shorter landing gear.

BLUTARSKI

Ruy Horta
06-22-2004, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
The encounter was the death of Sugita, I just found the relevant part in the aces book. The late date (April 1945) means that he was probably flying a Shiden-Kai. In that case, landing gear retraction would not have been a problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least according to Genda's Blade the landing gear continued to be a source of problems even with the the Shiden-Kai. IIRC the gear was prone to drop in high speed dives, causing at least the loss of a number of pilots in combat (due to this handicap).

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta

Penguin_PFF
06-22-2004, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..... IIRC, the early models were mid-wing with very lengthy and troublesome landing gear. Later models were re-designed to a low-wing configuration with shorter landing gear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I understand. "Early model" is really "early airplane", the Shiden. The Shiden-Kai was a different airplane derived from the Shiden. They look the same, they had the same engine, and the N1K1-Jb and N1K2-J actually shared the same armament, but they were effectively two different planes.

I'm really going to have to read "Genda's Blade". It seems like somebody mentions it at least once a day.

I_Jg3_BARKHORN
06-22-2004, 10:02 PM
S! bro work was killin me today, or i would have got back earlier. I am getting a laugh from the retraction, strut, mechanical prob stuff LOL. Your the modeler not the fm builder... I hope they can get the automated combat flap sys right. Anywho i am aware of the type 11 type 21. I am also aware of the wing in the n1k1. Initial armarment pakages, gondola removel, bracing, and racks for bombs; 4 inline gun (no gondola) n1k1 is nifty lookin. Anyway my intrest in in the Shiden Kai. After the intial run of 100 aircraft; At this point in prodution (Type 21) it was altered to the narrow cord ko. A couple of local guys I know helped in the resteration of the N1k2 J Shiden kai that is on display in the naval mus in Pensacola Florida. I have seen parts from it, paint chips, books of pics from the rebuild, and of coarse the plane on display. You know what is nifty lookin is the J5 version powered by a mitsibish1 Ha 43-11 motor. More streamlined cowl revised exhaust system. I am not sure if, or how many of that version was produced, but it looks neat. IF u have an areo detail the planes and differances are in there. The gekken book is also outstanding. It is all in japonese, but the pics are staggering.
S!

Penguin_PFF
06-22-2004, 11:05 PM
Yeah, the two-stage gear is just crazy. The double-shaft system only shortened the legs by eight inches or so, not counting oleo travel... One wonders why they didn't just add deeper gear bays in the belly, or strengthen the wing, or try a 90-degree retraction scheme.

The N1K1-Jb is definitely the best-looking of the three major Shiden models. The Shiden-Kai is better still, but they're all pretty non-descript... The lowered wing helps, but the Kyofu wins for style points.

I have Famous Airplanes 53, Model Art, a reprint of Maru Mechanic, and the Aero Detail on the Shiden-Kai sitting at my elbow right now.

I_Jg3_BARKHORN
06-23-2004, 02:10 AM
sounds like you are all set. The only thing i have different are some Kokufan pubs, and that gekken book. The gekken book has a full color layout (photo) of the entire pit right, left, and board. It also contain lots fo b&w wartime shots. Looking forward to it. If i can help you out give me a shout.
S!

Ruy Horta
06-23-2004, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
I'm really going to have to read "Genda's Blade". It seems like somebody mentions it at least once a day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Genda's Blade is interesting when it comes to annecdotal info and the matching of these with predominantly American archival material.

Hard info on the a/c is scarce, but there are some tidbits, like armor, operational problems using Shiden and Shiden-Kai together and some other faults.

IMHO do not get this book if you want to get tech. info, otherwise it is quite enjoyable.

There are several areas to look for quick id-ing of the Shiden and Shiden-Kai

Shiden has a mid wing config, the long gear is a result of this config (so the gear itself is a secondary id feature). The Shiden has a thick rear fuselage and a larger fin area, IIRC later Shiden's had squared hor. stab (note not Kai). Another difference is the armament, the Shiden-Kais did not have cowl guns, which the earlier model had and finally the early Shidens were fitted with wing gondolas to house the extra pair of 20mm cannon, although the 1-Jb housed all cannon in the wing (like the 2). Finally the Shiden carried an external oil cooler.

Those are the biggies outside, inside they do not even share the same cockpit layout.

Modeling the Shiden-Kai is easy when it comes to reference material, talking 3d model of a/c and cockpit, the earlier Shiden is a different matter.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
I have Famous Airplanes 53, Model Art, a reprint of Maru Mechanic, and the Aero Detail on the Shiden-Kai sitting at my elbow right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, good, saves us a lot of scanning - a 3d artist willing and able to get his own reference material!

Dev. guys can be like sponges... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif



The Gakken is nice though. Since you are also working on a J2M I advice you get the Gakken on her as well, besides the standards you mentioned here (Mushroom is also nice for the J2M).

Enjoyed the Gakken Raiden and Type One Navy Bomber issues so much I decided to order the Shiden booklet as well, unfortunately my source was out of stock and delayed its shipping until yesterday!

Good side is I'm finally getting my paws on the Maru Pete book as well.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta

[This message was edited by Ruy Horta on Wed June 23 2004 at 01:38 AM.]

Penguin_PFF
06-23-2004, 03:45 AM
Quick ID course on the Kawanishi fighter stable, for those interested (I'm totally leeching of this guy's site, but what the h3ll, all his photos are stolen anyhow):

1. N1K Kyofu. The big fat fighter seaplane that started it all.
http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W/Rex-5.jpg

2. N1K1-J Shiden. Note gunpods & mid wing. Landing gear extension and oleo are also visible in the gap between the gear doors.
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-4s.jpg

3. N1K1-Jb Shiden: Four guns in the wing and different bomb racks.
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-8s.jpg

4. N1K2-J Shiden-Kai. Notice the very different overall shape! Low-wing, thinner, more streamlined, lots of things are smaller. Despite claims of commonality in various books, about the only things the Shiden-Kai had in common with the Shiden were cannons (in the case of the N1K1-Jb) and some of the cockpit instrument gauges.. I've read that the wings were the same as the Shiden, that the canopy was the same, and so on... All generally untrue. Different bird entirely. I should post the fuselage frame diagrams for comparison.
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-15.jpg

Finally, here is the source of that "color photo":

http://www.warbirdpictures.com/NavyJB&W/N1K-12s.jpg

[This message was edited by Penguin_PFF on Wed June 23 2004 at 03:20 AM.]

Penguin_PFF
06-23-2004, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Hard info on the a/c is scarce, but there are some tidbits, like armor, operational problems using Shiden and Shiden-Kai together and some other faults.

IMHO do not get this book if you want to get tech. info, otherwise it is quite enjoyable.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm OK with that. Any information on the plane is good information.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
IIRC later Shiden's had squared hor. stab (note not Kai). Another difference is the armament, the Shiden-Kais did not have cowl guns, which the earlier model had
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting thing about the cowl guns... With the N1K1-Ja, the guns were removed but for some reason the gun ports on the cowling were retained. The Type 97's were in the cockpit on a horizontal bar. They fired out through 100mm tubes in the firewall, and I haven't been able to find out if "removal" meant taking out the guns or taking out the guns and the tube & mounts both. I figure all the infrastructure was gone, since there are no chutes for empty
case ejection on the belly with the Ja.

English language references also claim that the guns were moved into the wing with the Ja... Not true. The Ja deleted the Type 97's and uprated all the 20mms from Type 99-1 Mod 3 to Type 99-2 Mod 3, but they were still very much in pods. Cannon ammo was a weak spot with the original J (only 60 rounds, per the MG-FF they copied).

My copy of Maru attributes the squared surfaces to some N1K1-Jb. My reference books have a grand total of seven photos of Jb's, and none of them have squared tail surfaces. There is one very nice aft shot of a square-tailed Shiden (in a hangar w/ other planes & the prop is missing - post surrender!). In the photo you can just make out the aft part of the cowling, and there are no unused gun ports, which are still there even on the B-model. So I think the photo might be a Jc! It's just a theory...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those are the biggies outside, inside they do not even share the same cockpit layout.

Modeling the Shiden-Kai is easy when it comes to reference material, talking 3d model of a/c and cockpit, the earlier Shiden is a different matter.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely right on all counts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The rudder pedal assembly and footrest plates are about the only things that were the same between the Shiden and Shiden-Kai (besides some of the instruments). Since they were working to conserve strategic materials by the time the Kai went into production, there are some things that LOOK the same on the surface, but actually they've been re-designed... The metal of the seat and canopy frames are a lot thinner, the radio rack and headrest are made of wood, stuff like that... Subtle but important.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Ah, good, saves us a lot of scanning - a 3d artist willing and able to get his own reference material!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Special-ordered from Japan, no less, since my state, despite its reputation as a cosmopolitan intellectual center of the Northeast U.S. with lots to offer, is actually a backwoods hole in the wall with nothing to offer of any substance. I had to go all the way to Texas to look for copies of Model Art books (I was visiting the girlfriend, but still...)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Dev. guys can be like sponges... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the only way to be. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I actually prefer to own the books and scan the materials myself. I need to be in control of the process wherever possible, and I can't be screwing around trying to correct other people's scans or trying to find electronic copies of something... I have to have it on paper and in my hand.

I have the Model Art and the new Mushroom book on the Raiden. Both are very enjoyable. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I actually got the last copy available of the Raiden MA from Arawasi.jp.

PikeBishop
06-23-2004, 05:56 AM
Just one thing that interests me a lot is that if the game has this free running campaign whereby things don't necessarily happen as in WWII (lets face it Midway can never happen the way it did nomatter how many times you play PF). In which case I believe the Shiden II was meant to be a successor to the Zero along with the Reppu so will they be available as carrier fighters in an alternative world where the war continues for say another 5 years............lots more Jap carriers......more inconclusive Naval battles with neither side gaining much ground........Jap fighters like the Tachikawa, Shinden and the KI87 and 96???(not sure here) coming out.......OOOOOOOOOOOOh! it gets better and better!!!
regards,
SLP

Flydutch
06-26-2004, 04:52 AM
Penguin,
do you have the Book "Cockpit-an illustratedhisory of WWII Aircraft interiors"?

Authors Donald Nijboer & Dan Patterson

Boston Mills Press.

Aside from many famous WWII A/C from GB, USA, UDSSR and Germany. It features beautifull cockpit color photos of the Zero, Dinah and Shiden-kai!

Ruy Horta
06-26-2004, 07:18 AM
The Nijboer book is nice covering a wide range of types, but it shows only the front panel, which simply isn't enough for a good cockpit. You need sources with a 360dgr coverage and if possible every section in detail.

Model Graphics Aero Detail is a good example or Squadron/Signal Walkaround or Detail & Scale, also Maru Mechanic, Gakken and Model Art often offer such detailed material.

Unfortunately I lack the skill to do 3d work (maybe some day), but I enjoy helping out with material if I can.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta

Penguin_PFF
06-26-2004, 07:32 AM
Ruy,

I know you like helping out, and so do the people at the 12 O'Clock High boards. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I used to frequent there (under my real name, Terrence Daniels, I was always asking about 1.(F)/22 and Luftwaffe service in Norway). I know your site is more about the Allies and Ze Luftwaffle, but do you have info on Japanese planes? Here's what I have on the N1K's:

-Gakken Famous Airplanes 53 (Kyofu, Shiden, Shiden-Kai)
-Aero Detail 26(?) on the Shiden-Kai
-Maru Mechanic 21 "1980" (softcover reprint in larger format, not the small compilation volume)
-Model Art 304

Plus some collected photos from online. Now you mentioned Squadron & Detail and Scale, and somebody mentioned Koku Fan... Do you know of any references that I don't have? I know there are some Polish and possibly even Czech books on the N1K line, but I have no idea what or how to get a hold of them. Which is a shame, since a lot of times the Polish books are the best available.

Any reference help is appreciated. I like to get every source possible.

(For those of you who think this might indicate what I'm making or what I'm not... I have these volumes for other aircraft as well. So there! Perhaps I'm working on a J7W?)

Ruy Horta
06-26-2004, 12:02 PM
Terry/Penguin,

Since I read your previous post on sources, I knew you had about everything I could offer on the Shiden, hence I didn't push the matter anymore. The above statement was more in general. There are no Squadron/Signal Walkarounds or Details in Scale on this subject.

However "Gakken Famous Airplanes 53" must be actually be "Bunrindo Famous Airplanes 53", right?!

The Gakken book is IIRC Shiden-Kai only, hoping to get my paws on that one (OTW) later this week. But you have the Shiden-Kai so well covered its impossible to do better (other than going to the a/c yourself and getting any shot you want...unlikely).

Bunrindo's lean heavily on Kokufans, at least I believe so., I don't think you are missing anthing there. Unfortunately I cannot comment on the Czech and Polish material on Japanese types, although in general they are fair to good if I judge them by the ones I have on other types (but if I cannot read the language it doesn't matter if its Japanese or Polish, well the captions are a little bit easier!).

My main want is seeing the J2M, Ki-44 and Mod. 11 Shiden in PF in the fighter catagory.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta

Penguin_PFF
06-26-2004, 08:31 PM
Ah, sorry, I got confused... Yes, Bunrindo. I once ordered a copy of the Gakken on the Raiden, not knowing I already had a copy, but I knew it under a different name. The Gakken books are sometimes also called "Pacific Air War" or something similar, I think. I did not know there was also a Gakken volume on the Shiden-Kai. I will have to get a copy.

Your main wants are very much my personal goals as well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Ruy Horta
06-27-2004, 12:56 AM
Gakken is the publisher and Pacific War is the series.

I have only a couple:

Gakken Pacific War No. 14 - Carrier Strike Force
Gakken Pacific War No. 29 - Reppu & Reppu Kai
Gakken Pacific War No. 42 - IJN Type 1 Bomber

OTW
Gakken Pacific War No. 29 - IJN Interceptor Raiden

ORDER
Gakken Pacific War No. 12 - Mitsubishi Zero Fighter
Gakken Pacific War No. 33 - Mitsubishi Zero Fighter Vol.2
Gakken Pacific War No. 46 - IJA Type 4 Fighter Hayate (NEW!)

BTW, do you know/own:

Gakken Pacific War No. 31 - IJA & IJN Experimental Fighter

Since you mentioned the Shinden http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would not recommend the No.14 issue, its too general (although there are some high lights). Their specialized ship volumes are beckoning me though...but first a new PC later this year!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta