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bazzaah2
05-19-2004, 06:46 AM
given that carriers will be a moving base and not a static one, just wondering if there will be more realistic navigation aids available? So maybe wondering if interface between user and game will allow more sophisticated options than is case in FB/AEP.

I've no real idea exactly what was available to whom and when during the war but hope that PF will include something like RL aides.

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bazzaah2
05-19-2004, 06:46 AM
given that carriers will be a moving base and not a static one, just wondering if there will be more realistic navigation aids available? So maybe wondering if interface between user and game will allow more sophisticated options than is case in FB/AEP.

I've no real idea exactly what was available to whom and when during the war but hope that PF will include something like RL aides.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

yerpalal
05-19-2004, 08:00 AM
BOY-HOWDY!!

Good point. In the land based games you have at least some landmarks to aid you in finding your way around, but one chunk of featureless Pacific looks petty much the same as any other featureless chunk so navigation is going to really need to be looked at.

ELEM
05-19-2004, 08:31 AM
The easiest option for finding your carrier again would be to ask via radio for the carriers position by map coordinates.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

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bazzaah2
05-19-2004, 09:32 AM
well yes you could always ask but that kind of presupposes that you know where you are.

Was wondering more whether there will be scope for realistic (whatever they may be) navigational aids to be used in PF?

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IV_JG51_Razor
05-19-2004, 01:59 PM
If it's realism you want, then just get yourself a good stop watch, and a nav log to keep track of your heading changes, because the carriers very rarely (if ever) had any kind of beacon turned on for their planes to use for homing (for obvious reasons). It was all dead reconing(sp?), time, distance, and heading. The pilots were given a Lat/Long when they left, giving them the position of the carrier at their expected time of return. They used a plotting board to figure all this out, and it was not easy. That might be why we lost more aircrew to "operational accidents" than enemy action. Flying off the boat was far more dangerous than dealing with the enemy.

Flying a coop mission in PF, with the minimap path turned off will be quite a challange! Heck, even in a DF server, where the carriers are static, navigation with the map off will be difficult unless you keep track of where you've been, so you'll know how to get back.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

VF-3Thunderboy
05-19-2004, 08:48 PM
Some type of actual plotting board would be nice, even if its gonna be in the patch.

You could also make it "computerized" so you just have to plug in the coords, and it figures out for you. Lots of dead reconing during ww2, compases shot out, etc. and you only read about the guys that made it back...I am working on a ploting board of sorts for CFS2, but throw in wind, and you need to be an expert at this stuff...

Latico
05-19-2004, 10:12 PM
Man o man, All this deman for more realism. But when it comes to maybe having to actually navigate in a realistic manner, the whining starts.

I suspect that printable maps might be included that you can put on a clip board for your lap. Most of the cockpit panels I've seen so far in FB have a clock. All you need is a couple of plotting tools.

So what if your compass is shot out? If you regroup with your wing after action, as you should, for the return home somebody will have a workable compass to get headings with.

If you want to get the most realism form this or any flight sim, you should be willing to train and practice realistci procedures that the Dev's can't program into the sim.

stansdds
05-20-2004, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But when it comes to maybe having to actually navigate in a realistic manner, the whining starts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, you got that right!!! In my limited flying experience, navigation over land can be tough. It doesn't look the same from up there as it does down here! Over water, no land in sight? Even if there are islands around, sometimes they look so much alike. Realistic navigation is great for the hard core, die hard, flight sim pilot, but the more casual simmers need easy navigation, like jumping to a waypoint. Besides, how many of us really have the time to fly two hours, in formation, to the target area, spend five minutes engaged with the enemy, then spend two more hours trying to find your way home?

bazzaah2
05-20-2004, 08:15 AM
Whining? Hello?

I was just aking a question.

Whatever.

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IV_JG51_Razor
05-20-2004, 10:06 AM
I'm sure that it will be the same as it is in FB now. The difficulty settings will determine what you see on your map in the cockpit. I don't see it being any different than it is in FB, except that with the minimap path disabled, navigation will be extremely hard without a little training, and lots of practice.

That goes for the very heart of the sim, carrier operations (in my opinion anyway). It's going to take an awfull lot of training and practice to develop the skills necessary to operate off of a carrier consistantly well. At the "realistic" setting, it's going to be very challanging, and I predict that quite a few will get frustrated and move on. For those who stick it out, I think PF will be a very addicting sim! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif In my opinion, again, I think that the air combat will be less exciting than the recovery back aboard your carrier. That is......if you can find your way back!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Latico
05-20-2004, 11:00 AM
Stansdds and Razor, I aggree with you guys. I'm sure PF will have simular settings options like FB, to accomidate all users.

And yes, recoveries will certainly be interesting. Finding your way back to the carrier will be the first task and after that you have to land. This could be really tricky if your plane has been shot up and not handling so well. In a case such as that it might be in the best interest of the carrier AG to ditch rather than clutter up the flight deck with wreckage. LOL

BSS_Vidar
05-20-2004, 11:24 AM
Actually, US carriers had a pre-dated NDB (Non-directional Becon) system. Without going into too much detail it gave off a series of tones on specific cardnal headings.Precisly 45 deg off the N,S,E,& W cardnal headings i.e 045, 135, 225, & 315, a constant aural tone could be obtained. Before obtaining a steady tone, the aircrews knew which direction they were comming in on because each cardnal heading had a specific tone. Their was no DME, so they had no idea whether they were fly towards the becon or away from it. But tone volume/signal strength helped solve the ambiguity. This was used on US carriers right into the Korean conflict.
Aircrews and strike packages were pre-briefed on which steady-tone to appraoch the carrier so they could be easily ID'ed before ships company gun crews started poppin' of rounds at'em.

There's alot more to it i.e. security issues & Proceedures, but I type with only 2 fingers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

S!

Vidar

IV_JG51_Razor
05-20-2004, 11:46 AM
Vidar, did the carriers always transmit that signal, or was that much later in the war? I seem to recall that early on in the war, like mid to late '43, the carriers kept their beacons shut off due to concerns that enemy subs and patrol planes could use DF gear to locate the source of the transmission. I think I read that it wasn't until later on that the Navy began to feel confident enough to transmit their beacons for the AGs to navigate with. If the air group stuck together, most of the SBDs, TBFs, and SB2Cs had radar installed by the end of '43.

Regardless, that capability would justify Oleg and Luthier making the CV a waypoint that the RMI needle would point to.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

BSS_Vidar
05-20-2004, 12:23 PM
Yeah Razor, That's what I meant by security and proceedures. They mixed things up a bit so not to be predictable. I don't recall any instances where the IJN were able to find the carrier from its own Nav signal. They more than likely had specific transmit times so aircrews knew when to turn on their receivers. Each carrier's Air Ops Officer probably had his own secure Nav plan. If there was more than one carrier in the theater, they had their own distict freq to tune in on very much like Tacan is used today.

I agree, an RMI in the cockpit panal would be a good thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

BSS_Vidar

Stuntie
05-20-2004, 12:24 PM
Oddly enough I was just re-reading the book "Jolly Rogers" about Tom Blackburn and VF-17 last night.
I was actually reading the bit about his time on the Santee during Torch.

His ship had a mishap which damaged the nav beacon, leading to him and 4 others of this squadron stranded and having to ditch. He described the gear, which was called YE or 'hayrake' after it's appearence as emmitting a separate morse letter every 15 deg.
If you know the letter you know where to turn. If it changes then your off track and can alter accordingly. It also grew louder as you approached the ship.

If you contacted the ship and they were unsure which radar contact was you they got you to do an expanding square pattern which also increased in altitude so they could work out which was you (heading and altitude on the various legs etc.

Cheers.
Stuntie

BSS_Vidar
05-20-2004, 12:31 PM
That's it exactly Stuntie!
But if you get on each of the 45 degree off cardnal heading bearings, that morse code turned into a solid tone. The code you get before getting the constant tone let you know which bearing you were from the source. Thnx for explaing it for us. I was typing in simpler terms. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Vidar

Latico
05-20-2004, 04:51 PM
I believe I read in an action report of one of the VB squadron pilots that they used something of this nature to find their way back to the carrier at the BAttle of Midway. IIRC, the report said that they didn't search for the signal until they were approximately halfway back, due to either the range of the signal or it was not going to be turned on until a certain time.

So some sort of homing device was in use by June of '42. The report did say that this system wasn't terribly reliable.

Baco-ECV56
05-20-2004, 05:17 PM
Well Im all for realistick navigation. On FB I doit quite a lot, and to navigate to a ground target and back is a pice of cake, But, you have ground features to help.

Hypotetical situation:
Im in the midle of the Pacific, I get tangled woth an enemy sweep. we fight, we doge we win...
Ok, but how the hell I´m suposed to know where on That big Pacific Ocean am I?
I have been twsiting and dancing for a few minutes, and in a dogfight one does not have time to check every time you turn one way or the other ot ro time how log have I been flying in a direction or another...

Then what?

Ok I know wicth way Im going, and have a general reference that I was comming from a known direction.. But I don´t know how far I have drifted from the point I began to dogfight...
How can I know if I must correct my headng a couple of degrees to one side or the other?

In FB you eventually cross a river, crossroads, base, hill or soemthing...

BSS_Vidar
05-20-2004, 09:10 PM
FYI,
These Nav becons were actually used in the early stages of trancontinental airline travel during the early years of our airtraffic control system development(1925-1945). The Navy deveolped its version from this technology. Airways were actually depectied by maintaining a steady tone, so the stations had to be positioned between airports to make this happen.
Post war technology developed the VOR.

S!

BSS_Vidar

Fliger747
05-22-2004, 10:27 PM
I believe we went through this before. What was used, with varying degrees of sucess was a "YE" beacon, which transmited a diferent coded signal for each 15 degree segment from the carrier. The code for segments was changed every day. Range of reception varied with altitude etc, but was roughly 40 miles at 4000', 60 miles at 6000' etc.

I have a WWII naval aviators plotting board that belonged to my dad, with some 60 year old pencil scribblings still on it.

I expect that some of this will get too involved for most "simmers". Getting lost and not finding the boat or an island coud be a real "bummer", but was known to happen. Thunderboy, I have some photos of this if you still want them.

Operational losses, including training, far outnumbered combat losses.