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Mirage6201
10-10-2017, 02:21 PM
It's a problem. The fastest lights on console means you need everything clicking to just get a block and throw randomly just to get a parry. Shinobis / pks probably don't even know what a parry is bc no one can do it reliably which is ok but not being able to block _ % of the time is a problem.

I'm running game mode. Wired controller doesn't help. Online apps has my clicked at around 280-300ms through my phone which is probably just average.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 02:57 PM
PK has the fastest attacks in the game @400ms (zone and second light), but her first light is 500ms just as alot of other characters (top light of: Warden, Orochi, Lawbringer, Glad etc). Shinobi has 500ms lights from every side, on hit he gets 14 damage + a 200ms guaranteed second light for 8 damage. PK comes with 17 damage @500ms from every side, then 15 damage @400ms. Zone of PK is @400ms with 20 damage.

So, they are both fast and can rely on lights to kill their opponent. What to do?

PK: Block your right side since 400ms zone is pretty much unreactable for you on console with ~300ms reaction time. Only react on the other directions. Don't let PK play her game, attack her. She has reflex guard, so alot of your hits will get through. Most PK's rely on attacking, they are not that good in blocking / parrying. You play a high range character (Nobu, Lawbringer, Kensei)? Congrats, punish that PK before she can reach you.

Shinobi: No idea. Really. The buffed Shinobi is so strong, only if he makes a mistake you can punish him. If he is good you never know what he does after the double dodge from far away to get in range, maybe a Kick, maybe a GB, maybe a double light? For me on PC a massive downer atm when I face teams with 1-2 good Shins...

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 03:12 PM
PK has the fastest attacks in the game @400ms (zone and second light), but her first light is 500ms just as alot of other characters (top light of: Warden, Orochi, Lawbringer, Glad etc). Shinobi has 500ms lights from every side, on hit he gets 14 damage + a 200ms guaranteed second light for 8 damage. PK comes with 17 damage @500ms from every side, then 15 damage @400ms. Zone of PK is @400ms with 20 damage.

So, they are both fast and can rely on lights to kill their opponent. What to do?

PK: Block your right side since 400ms zone is pretty much unreactable for you on console with ~300ms reaction time. Only react on the other directions. Don't let PK play her game, attack her. She has reflex guard, so alot of your hits will get through. Most PK's rely on attacking, they are not that good in blocking / parrying. You play a high range character (Nobu, Lawbringer, Kensei)? Congrats, punish that PK before she can reach you.

Shinobi: No idea. Really. The buffed Shinobi is so strong, only if he makes a mistake you can punish him. If he is good you never know what he does after the double dodge from far away to get in range, maybe a Kick, maybe a GB, maybe a double light? For me on PC a massive downer atm when I face teams with 1-2 good Shins...

Easier said than done, you are coming from PC which is an entirely different game. The removal of time snap has made some attacks up to 150ms faster. Factor in guard switch delay, the brutal input lag on console, and even I have problems with reliably blocking at times. Last I checked I was sitting around 200ms reaction time, the average is 280.

BarbeQMichael
10-10-2017, 03:16 PM
The thing with those extremely fast characters is, that you cannot reliably defend against lightspam. You could always try with PK to guard in the direction of her zone, but then she just needs to do light from one of the 2 other directions so basically its not a solution. Another thing with 400/500 ms attacks are that you cant get any hits or gbs in yourself because the lightspam interrupts all your actions since they are so much faster than your actions.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 03:16 PM
Easier said than done, you are coming from PC which is an entirely different game. The removal of time snap has made some attacks up to 150ms faster. Factor in guard switch delay, the brutal input lag on console, and even I have problems with reliably blocking at times. Last I checked I was sitting around 200ms reaction time, the average is 280.

Uhm, you did realise that I just gave tips on how to overcome that difference? Nowhere I am saying that it is "easy" or "git gud". Block your right side vs PK will save you from the 400ms move she has from neutral, while every other move is 500ms or slower. Then, to "counterplay" her, attack yourself when she gets close. Don't let PK take the initative. When a PK is far away, move your guard to top and easy parry her forward dodge attack for a guaranteed GB. As soon as she gets close -> guard right again.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 03:18 PM
The thing with those extremely fast characters is, that you cannot reliably defend against lightspam. You could always try with PK to guard in the direction of her zone, but then she just needs to do light from one of the 2 other directions so basically its not a solution. Another thing with 400/500 ms attacks are that you cant get any hits or gbs in yourself because the lightspam interrupts all your actions since they are so much faster than your actions.

Yeah, I get it. But even those attacks are parried occasionally. If they would nerf all attacks to be 100 / 200ms slower, no one would EVER attack again.

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 03:30 PM
Uhm, you did realise that I just gave tips on how to overcome that difference? Nowhere I am saying that it is "easy" or "git gud". Block your right side vs PK will save you from the 400ms move she has from neutral, while every other move is 500ms or slower. Then, to "counterplay" her, attack yourself when she gets close. Don't let PK take the initative. When a PK is far away, move your guard to top and easy parry her forward dodge attack for a guaranteed GB. As soon as she gets close -> guard right again.

Umm did you realize that your advice is made irrelevant by the post I just made? Let's just say time snap removal shaves 100 ms off an attack, pks lights now become 400ms. Take the average reaction time or 280, add 100ms for guard switch delay, I'll low ball the display, and input lag since I have no exact numbers but let's just say 50ms (though I'm positive it's far worse) that brings us 430ms. You play PC, you don't play console. There's an enormous difference, I've played both and anyone who has can attest to this.

BarbeQMichael
10-10-2017, 03:31 PM
Thats the life of non-assassin heroes, they have 600/700ms lights which means they are on par at speed with heavies from many other characters

RatedChaotic
10-10-2017, 03:33 PM
Keep checking the scoreboard in between fights. Some nats will flicker around from red to yellow to green. The attacks from these players are almost nonreactable.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 03:38 PM
Thats the life of non-assassin heroes, they have 600/700ms lights which means they are on par at speed with heavies from many other characters

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

Only Conq, Shugo and Nobushi do not have a 500ms Light from neutral. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 03:40 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

Only Conq, Shugo and Nobushi do not have a 500ms Light from neutral. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Wrong, throw raider on your list and subtract nobu

BarbeQMichael
10-10-2017, 03:42 PM
What about raider or highlander? I think I recall them having slow lights too

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 03:42 PM
Wrong, throw raider on your list and subtract nobu

Oh yeah, Nobu has side light @500ms. But Raider has the Stunning Tap which is 500ms, too.

So it is: Conq, Shugo + Raider and Highlander to a degree (Raider Stunning Tap, Highlander Offensive Form Light)

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 03:43 PM
Oh yeah, Nobu has side light @500ms. But Raider has the Stunning Tap which is 500ms, too.

One that's not neutral, and two no it's not. It's 600

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 03:45 PM
What about raider or highlander? I think I recall them having slow lights too

In defense yes for hl but they are 400 I believe in offense. At the very least 500

BarbeQMichael
10-10-2017, 03:50 PM
Highander needs to go into offensive form first which takes so long that when you see him going for it you just attack or guardbreak him. Not sure how long it takes raider to feint into the tap

gj4063
10-10-2017, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I get it. But even those attacks are parried occasionally. If they would nerf all attacks to be 100 / 200ms slower, no one would EVER attack again.

The former existence of time snap pieces that this isn't true.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 07:11 PM
The former existence of time snap pieces that this isn't true.

Why that? Timesnap didnt add 100ms to all moves. It just equalized time of input in 100ms steps.

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 07:18 PM
Why that? Timesnap didnt add 100ms to all moves. It just equalized time of input in 100ms steps.

His point is that if they were actually 500ms like they were when timesnap was around instead of the 400ms they are now it wouldn't destroy those same lights. They worked prior to its removal, and they would work again if they brought it back or had something similar in place. Only problem with this is timesnap removal has varying effects depending on the connection. sometimes it's not too bad but others it's shaving off 150ms. If you increased everything by 100/200ms across the board then the times where the connection is more stable would be similar to the scenario you depicted.

brashtralas
10-10-2017, 10:37 PM
Easier said than done, you are coming from PC which is an entirely different game. The removal of time snap has made some attacks up to 150ms faster. Factor in guard switch delay, the brutal input lag on console, and even I have problems with reliably blocking at times. Last I checked I was sitting around 200ms reaction time, the average is 280.

Right? Sometimes the indicator appears and Iím already hit. And itís completely unreliable. It can be just fine, then suddenly theyíre lightning fast.

Itís incredinly annoying, and non-assassin classes are becoming more and more rare.

iAlwaysL0se
10-13-2017, 12:52 AM
Keep checking the scoreboard in between fights. Some nats will flicker around from red to yellow to green. The attacks from these players are almost nonreactable.

This... ^^
It's also impossible to kill some of them at times. I can't count how many times I played against a player with yellow or red NAT, get them down to one bar, mix em up and land the heavy to see the full animation of them dying on hit go through only to then see them miraculously parry the attack and become undead. Or you hit them and see the damage and hit go through, game tweaks out for a second and they actually took no damage and blocked the attack. It's like the player with the better connection has their actions go through first but then is completely negated from the ****er with a potato for a modum and a mouse wheel for a router. Beyond infuriating. Sometimes this will happen vs players with a solid connection but it's extremely prevalent fighting players with **** internet.

That_guy44
10-13-2017, 05:31 AM
Shame there hasn't been any word on this subject. Out of all the ******** I put up with in for honor, timesnap removal was the dagger that made me shelf the game.

Mirage6201
10-15-2017, 01:36 AM
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