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RoosterIlluzion
10-10-2017, 06:31 AM
**** you, ya cheap attack mother****er.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 08:15 AM
What exactly is your problem with Gladi? His ultra-short reflex guard? His side-dodge attack which gives you a guaranteed GB if blocked? His toe-stab which is dodgeable (same timing as WL headbutt) and is a free GB? His 600ms chained light attacks which only deal 15 Damage? His super-telegraphed unblockable Attack?

RoosterIlluzion
10-10-2017, 09:04 AM
https://youtu.be/b2e4guj4GTs

This is one problem, but it may be berserker's because it happened with Centurion as well.

https://youtu.be/WKjSaK977wc

But aside from that, gladiator has no toe stab indicatior and his stupid shield bash stun is so fast, you HAVE to take the hit. And his leaping stab like Valkyrie's is the quickest out of them all (berserker, Valkyrie, PK).

RoosterIlluzion
10-10-2017, 09:07 AM
I'm pretty sure berserker's jump attack I did would've hit him first, since he a) didn't dodge
b) didn't even start attacking until after my axes were past his head.
c) I was well within range.

It's the same with the centurion video. No dodge, within range.

HumoLoco
10-10-2017, 09:22 AM
https://youtu.be/b2e4guj4GTs

This is one problem, but it may be berserker's because it happened with Centurion as well.

https://youtu.be/WKjSaK977wc

But aside from that, gladiator has no toe stab indicatior and his stupid shield bash stun is so fast, you HAVE to take the hit. And his leaping stab like Valkyrie's is the quickest out of them all (berserker, Valkyrie, PK).



Look like you doing too early. or perhaps they know you go for that.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 09:30 AM
https://youtu.be/b2e4guj4GTs

This is one problem, but it may be berserker's because it happened with Centurion as well.

https://youtu.be/WKjSaK977wc

But aside from that, gladiator has no toe stab indicatior and his stupid shield bash stun is so fast, you HAVE to take the hit. And his leaping stab like Valkyrie's is the quickest out of them all (berserker, Valkyrie, PK).

1. Toe stab has the UB indicator. I think it can be even parried in any direction, or dodged. It only deals 10 Damage @600ms.
2. Shield Bash? @600ms dealing no damage, my opponents dodge it regularly and they will get a free GB on me. I just use it in gank situations or when a ledge is near.
3. Forward dodge light attack is 500ms, the EXACT same as PK, Valk and Kensei. Berserker is 600ms side dodge attack or 900ms forward dodge attack.

Cannot see a problem in your first video versus Gladi. You do a 900ms attack wondering that a 600ms attack caught you...
Please, at least look at some information before ranting about something. Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/6li63y/all_character_frame_data_excluding_dlc_characters/

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 10:20 AM
Hold on, Gladiator is too strong right now because he has everyones Toys. Unlike Centurion who could just Spamm, Gladiator needs Skill to actually use all of his Tools.
He has:
1. Very Quick Lights
2. Guranteed Toe Stab after a Light, which throws an Opopnent to the Ground if he is OOS, (which gives him the meanest OOS punish overall)
3. Án somewhat quick Unblockable Attack that ALSO throws the Opponent down if he is OOS.
4. The Conquerors side Shieldbash stamina Drain included.
5. An Unblockable Zone that is guranteed Zero risk free Damage, unless your a Certain Distance away, or are an Assassin with quick Lights, and even then it is very hard to interrupt.
6. Poison

The Toestab can only be dodged Backwards, i already tested this out with a bot, if you dodge sidwards it tracks. On Rare Occasions, if you dodged before he threw the Toestab the side dodge can succeed.

This Guy has to many Toys. Most Gladiators I fight, don't do their Jump Attack, since they know it's a free GB if blocked, they only do Light attacks, followed by the guaranteed Toe stab and then they Turtle up again. Occaisonally they throw in a Side bash, or a GB.

Glad is an Assassin with far far to many Toys. They need to take a few of theese from him, and remove the insane OOS punish. In exchange he should get more Combos.

RoosterIlluzion
10-10-2017, 10:30 AM
Maybe, it was a bot. But still, that attack should've hit both the gladiator and centurion. I know the range of that attack, and neither of them dodged. The fact that my attack was first and nearly completed before the gladiator did the toe stab, AND I was still in the air when he hit me, is b.s. ubisoft needs to address this obvious issue with hit detection.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 10:39 AM
The thing with the Centurion seems to be a Bug. The Cent just ran at you, and you still kinda missed, even though he was in range. Maybe the same Bug happend with the Gladiator?
Looks like a Bug to me´at least.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 10:45 AM
Hold on, Gladiator is too strong right now because he has everyones Toys. Unlike Centurion who could just Spamm, Gladiator needs Skill to actually use all of his Tools.
He has:
1. Very Quick Lights
2. Guranteed Toe Stab after a Light, which throws an Opopnent to the Ground if he is OOS, (which gives him the meanest OOS punish overall)
3. Án somewhat quick Unblockable Attack that ALSO throws the Opponent down if he is OOS.
4. The Conquerors side Shieldbash stamina Drain included.
5. An Unblockable Zone that is guranteed Zero risk free Damage, unless your a Certain Distance away, or are an Assassin with quick Lights, and even then it is very hard to interrupt.
6. Poison

The Toestab can only be dodged Backwards, i already tested this out with a bot, if you dodge sidwards it tracks. On Rare Occasions, if you dodged before he threw the Toestab the side dodge can succeed.

This Guy has to many Toys. Most Gladiators I fight, don't do their Jump Attack, since they know it's a free GB if blocked, they only do Light attacks, followed by the guaranteed Toe stab and then they Turtle up again. Occaisonally they throw in a Side bash, or a GB.

Glad is an Assassin with far far to many Toys. They need to take a few of theese from him, and remove the insane OOS punish. In exchange he should get more Combos.

Holy, so much nonsense in one post.

1. First light is 500ms (same as ALOT of other characters have), all following lights are 600ms and they all deal only 15 damage
2. Not guaranteed. You have just wrong timing, sorry. Alot of people dodge it when I use it. Oh and it only deals 10 Damage btw, and it is parryable.
3. Which attack is it? Quick UB attack which throws to ground except toe stab (which is 600ms...)? Side dodge punch does not throw down. Skewer is only available in Chains AND with 900ms not quick by any means.
4. Conq and Glad have the same side dodge bash, true. But Conq gets a guaranteed light out of it, Glad gets nothing guaranteed.
5. What? It is a 600ms attack, you can dodge the bash and parry the second hit. If you dodge both you get a free GB on Glad. Zero risk, sure...
6. Poison on one skill: Skewer which is one of the hardest to hit moves in the game. 900ms, super telegraphed, parried 95% when I let it go. Only good after a Deflect, which we all know is high risk - high reward.

Best OOS punish is still Centurion, Raider and Warden. Glad is an Assassin with a supershort reflex guard, he cannot counter GB if you block his side dodge attack and he has long recovery times after dodge.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 11:10 AM
1. Like i said, fast. Not the fastest.
2. You seen any Heavy or Vanguard ever dodge out of the Toestab after the Light? Maybe Assasins can dodge out of it, i rarely play them aside from Berserker. Also there is no unblockable Sign if the Glad does the Toestab right after a light, This might be an Issue only for Heavys/and or Vanguards. I'll have to Test this out.
3. I meant Scewer Attack. Are you sure this can only be done in a combo? Because a Bot went (i was OOS) Light-->Toestab--> (me falling to the Ground)--->Light-->Scewer Attack (and i fell down again, since i was just in the standing up animation.) So where exactly do you chain Scewer? This is what i mean with best OOS punish
4. You can throw People of Ledges with a Dodge bash, you get a Stamina Drain. It isn't the greatest move for every Situation, or the overpowerets one. Its jus one more for his Arsenal.
5. Have ever seen a Non Assasins Dodge this? Maybe my reflexes just suck when i fight Glad but i have never been able to dodge the Zone with Conq. Also it is a Zone, so you need to Dodge block and only then you get a free GB? Still too strong if you ask me.
6. Which is why Glads only use it while they can get it off for sure, (gank /foe on the Ground) etc. Again not the strongest move, but another unblockable one. And Poison on top!

The Main Problem is that he has too many moves which are all great for Differnt situations. So he has far more options than any other champion.

I disagree that Warden and Raider have the best OOS punish. You can easily dodge Shoulderbash and Stampede charge, and you know for sure the Warden, will use his Zone, and Raider will of course use his Unblockable into Stunning Tap cancel. What gives them a good OOS punish here?

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 11:42 AM
1. Ok, agree.
2. Yes, plenty dodged it. Played alot of Glad the last 2 weeks. Almost Rep 4 now. Never saw that toe stab does not show the UB indicator. Maybe you mean the direction? It never shows a direction.
3. Skewer can only be done after hitting a Light or Heavy attack. Not possible from neutral. You could block the Light, dodge the Toe stab, when you get up and he hits his free light you can surely parry the Skewer followup.
4. If you miss side dodge punch - you are open for a free GB. Risk - reward.
5. Conq and LB dodged it and punished me. ^^
6. Afaik you cannot Skewer someone who is on the ground, he will only get hit for a small amount of damage but no bleed. Skewer does 37 bleed Damage if you do not throw. And it is a 900ms move...

Warden OOS: spam Shoulderbash mixup with GB or not, if you hit SB you get double light and drain stamina again, if you get the GB - heavy Top for 40 Damage or 70 Damage (Side + Top Heavy) if near a wall.
Raider OOS: mixup potential is huge with an UB attack which deals massive damage from neutral, you can bait out a parry attempt or go for the stunning tap or a GB. One of the best ways to punish OOS.

Glad has just the same options except he has to hit a light first to initiate the feint mixup game, or go for the toe stab which is dodgeable.

S.J.Lannister
10-10-2017, 12:25 PM
Hold on, Gladiator is too strong right now because he has everyones Toys. Unlike Centurion who could just Spamm, Gladiator needs Skill to actually use all of his Tools.
He has:
1. Very Quick Lights
2. Guranteed Toe Stab after a Light, which throws an Opopnent to the Ground if he is OOS, (which gives him the meanest OOS punish overall)
3. Án somewhat quick Unblockable Attack that ALSO throws the Opponent down if he is OOS.
4. The Conquerors side Shieldbash stamina Drain included.
5. An Unblockable Zone that is guranteed Zero risk free Damage, unless your a Certain Distance away, or are an Assassin with quick Lights, and even then it is very hard to interrupt.
6. Poison

The Toestab can only be dodged Backwards, i already tested this out with a bot, if you dodge sidwards it tracks. On Rare Occasions, if you dodged before he threw the Toestab the side dodge can succeed.

This Guy has to many Toys. Most Gladiators I fight, don't do their Jump Attack, since they know it's a free GB if blocked, they only do Light attacks, followed by the guaranteed Toe stab and then they Turtle up again. Occaisonally they throw in a Side bash, or a GB.

Glad is an Assassin with far far to many Toys. They need to take a few of theese from him, and remove the insane OOS punish. In exchange he should get more Combos.

Here is my gift for you:

When you hear: "Orvi Carisimus!" which means: "You're blind, my dear!" his attack is: "Bamboozle" so do that: "dodge left/right/back"

When you hear: "Audentes Fortuna Iuvat!" which means: "Fortune favors the bold!" his attack is: "Fuscina Ictus" so do that: "dodge back"

When you hear: "Demissa Macta!" which means: "Fall to the slaughter!" his attack is: "Fuscina Ictus" so do that: "dodge back"

When you hear: "Mars me Adiuvat!" which means: "Mars favors me!" his attack is: "Skewer" so do that: "parry, dodge left/right"

Hear, feel, react :)

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 12:30 PM
1. Ok, agree.
2. Yes, plenty dodged it. Played alot of Glad the last 2 weeks. Almost Rep 4 now. Never saw that toe stab does not show the UB indicator. Maybe you mean the direction? It never shows a direction.
3. Skewer can only be done after hitting a Light or Heavy attack. Not possible from neutral. You could block the Light, dodge the Toe stab, when you get up and he hits his free light you can surely parry the Skewer followup.
4. If you miss side dodge punch - you are open for a free GB. Risk - reward.
5. Conq and LB dodged it and punished me. ^^
6. Afaik you cannot Skewer someone who is on the ground, he will only get hit for a small amount of damage but no bleed. Skewer does 37 bleed Damage if you do not throw. And it is a 900ms move...

Warden OOS: spam Shoulderbash mixup with GB or not, if you hit SB you get double light and drain stamina again, if you get the GB - heavy Top for 40 Damage or 70 Damage (Side + Top Heavy) if near a wall.
Raider OOS: mixup potential is huge with an UB attack which deals massive damage from neutral, you can bait out a parry attempt or go for the stunning tap or a GB. One of the best ways to punish OOS.

Glad has just the same options except he has to hit a light first to initiate the feint mixup game, or go for the toe stab which is dodgeable.

2. Just tested this out. Very very Strange Results. When I am OOS i can dodge the Toestab from neutral every time, i can never dodge it if i have stamina for some strange strange reason. Maybe this is a Bug concerning Conqueror. I didn't have this problem dodging it with PK when i tested this out against the Lvl 3 Bot. Also Sometimes the UB indicator, doesn't show if the Toe Stab is done after a light Attack. It always shows up if he Toe Stabs from Neutral like it should. If he Toestabs me after a Light it is the same, if i am OOS i can dodge, if i am not OOS i can't for some strange Reason.

3. Ah so thats how scewer works, Thanks. Still the Issue remains. The Chain can't be broken once you are on the Ground you are gonna eat light, the scewer and you fall down again. While you can dodge the Light and the Toestab both are fast and hard to react. This means if you fall down once, you will fall down twice. You can test this out yourself, it is really unfair. You can't dodge the Scwer while you are still in the standing up animation.

4. So what other shows have about the same Risk/Reward. Like i said the Move itself is okay, but i don't think Glad should have it. It's great for Dominion and 4v4 Modes.

5. Played with his Zone a bit, it depends on range. If the Glad stands very close to you, it is undodgable, if you can keep your Distance it can be dodged/parryed. I still think the Zone is too strong.

6. You can scewer someone who is in the "standing up animation", or at least the Gladiator bot can, which leads to the Chain.

Warden/Raider OOS: Punish. Hm seems good, but it's alle reactable, unlike the Scewer while Standing up Attack. Glad has too many options for a Haybrid Assassin, i still stand by that.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 12:41 PM
2. Just tested this out. Very very Strange Results. When I am OOS i can dodge the Toestab from neutral every time, i can never dodge it if i have stamina for some strange strange reason. Maybe this is a Bug concerning Conqueror. I didn't have this problem dodging it with PK when i tested this out against the Lvl 3 Bot. Also Sometimes the UB indicator, doesn't show if the Toe Stab is done after a light Attack. It always shows up if he Toe Stabs from Neutral like it should. If he Toestabs me after a Light it is the same, if i am OOS i can dodge, if i am not OOS i can't for some strange Reason.

3. Ah so thats how scewer works, Thanks. Still the Issue remains. The Chain can't be broken once you are on the Ground you are gonna eat light, the scewer and you fall down again. While you can dodge the Light and the Toestab both are fast and hard to react. This means if you fall down once, you will fall down twice. You can test this out yourself, it is really unfair. You can't dodge the Scwer while you are still in the standing up animation.

4. So what other shows have about the same Risk/Reward. Like i said the Move itself is okay, but i don't think Glad should have it. It's great for Dominion and 4v4 Modes.

5. Played with his Zone a bit, it depends on range. If the Glad stands very close to you, it is undodgable, if you can keep your Distance it can be dodged/parryed. I still think the Zone is too strong.

6. You can scewer someone who is in the "standing up animation", or at least the Gladiator bot can, which leads to the Chain.

Warden/Raider OOS: Punish. Hm seems good, but it's alle reactable, unlike the Scewer while Standing up Attack. Glad has too many options for a Haybrid Assassin, i still stand by that.

2. Didn't know that, have to test it. ^^
3. I'm pretty sure you can parry / dodge the Skewer. Need to test it though.
4. It is a punch which deals 0 Damage (and 10 if you have Haymaker). Yes it is great for ledging, but alot of other Characters have great tools for ledging, too. Why should Glad not have it? It does not even give a guaranteed hit after.
5. You can dodge it 100% on all ranges. Just the timing of the dodge varies.
6. If that is true than it is really a very good move. Not as hard hitting as Cents Cut-Scene, but really good. I repeat, if it is confirmed guaranteed.

Glad is an Assassin, not a Hybrid. He has not as fast attacks as PK, a much shorter reflex guard, 600ms dodge recovery, very low / mediocre damage on all his moves, slow chained lights and even slower heavies. Yes, he has options, but he has alot of downsides, too. Imo Glad is very balanced, every character should have the amount of options.

Just look at all the vanilla characters compared to the DLC characters. All new ones have several branched chains, vanilla mostly have 2-3 stale "good" combos. Devs have to rework vanilla characters, not gut the new ones imo.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 12:59 PM
3. If youre not in the Standing up animation you can dodge/parry it of course. It was only in that one Situation. Otherwise it's okay.
4. because in my Opinion Assasins shouldn't have (many) Unblockables. Personal Opinion of course^^.
5. Test this out yourself,you can't dodge if you stand Toe to Toe with him, but you can interrupt him with a light if yours is fast enough.
6. It isn't overly hard hitting, but extreamly Frustrating, if you get hit by it. You can Confirm it yourself, Fight a Lvl 3 Glad bot without Damage, get yourself OOS, they do that combo rather often if they get you.

Ups, so Glad is an Assassin. I have the Opinion directly opposit to you most Vanilla Characters are fine, with the exception of a few Issus, it's the DLCs that need to be a bit toned down for a bit. But well this is just Personal opinion again^^.

Yeah well thanks for the Discussion anyway, it gave me some new insights to Glad, i will invastigate this a bit more.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 01:11 PM
Just one more thing: vanilla Assassins are completely useless if they face a good turtle. They rely on fast attacks which get 100% denied by a good turtle in this game. That's why I think even Assassins should have unblockables, they need something to force a reaction. This can come with the cost of slowing down their attacks or reduce their damage. It is the reason why I am learning Glad now, PK is just not capable of doing anything at a certain level of play.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 02:05 PM
Hm, turtling is defintly a Problem. But really Peacekeeper? The one Champion that got kicked for Tournaments because she was too strong? The small Terror? The Murderer of thousends that Peacekeeper? Jokes aside as a Conq player if often have to Turtle up against Assasins since they just spamm lights, which interrupt my every move, but if they don't spamm then i am a fairly agressive Conq.

But don't give up your PK, she may go through some rough times, just like my Conq right, now but it will get better! I am pretty sure youre good at Feinting, do your Enemies never take parry bait/fall for your Feints? That being said, one simple unblockable for everyone couldn't hurt. One for everyone! Not one Character with dozens of unblockables again.

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 02:46 PM
Hm, turtling is defintly a Problem. But really Peacekeeper? The one Champion that got kicked for Tournaments because she was too strong? The small Terror? The Murderer of thousends that Peacekeeper? Jokes aside as a Conq player if often have to Turtle up against Assasins since they just spamm lights, which interrupt my every move, but if they don't spamm then i am a fairly agressive Conq.

But don't give up your PK, she may go through some rough times, just like my Conq right, now but it will get better! I am pretty sure youre good at Feinting, do your Enemies never take parry bait/fall for your Feints? That being said, one simple unblockable for everyone couldn't hurt. One for everyone! Not one Character with dozens of unblockables again.

PK got banned from one tournament (MLG), in season 1, on console, because players raged on reddit. That never happened again. I feint alot. But if your opponent knows that you as PK have only normal attacks - would you fall for a feinted heavy? Why? You can just wait it out, parry in the end or block it safely. What else can she do? GB you from neutral. Wow. ^^
Yes, her zone is fast as hell. Block that side constantly - PK has nothing left to really put pressure on you and force a reaction. Not one.

"Dozens of unblockables again"?
It is 3 on Glad. 1 melee (no parry possible) which deals 0 damage and 2 attacks (toe stab for 10 damage @600ms, Skewer for 37 bleed Damage @900ms).
Centurion has Kick, Jab and charged heavy attack - 3.
Highlander has, well, in off stance every attack is UB and he has a kick / throw followup. Even more than 3 combined.
Lawbringer has Shove (x2 - on block and on dodge) and his top heavy finisher - 3 again.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to defend Glad by any means because I play him now. I just want to give a more "objective" view on how characters are balanced right now. And I think, with all his downsides, Glad is in a pretty good spot. Not top notch, not underpowered, just right in the middle.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 05:50 PM
Well what irks me personally are Characters who are fast and have more than one Unblockable, of course i was exteraggating with Dozens^^. In my Opinion still his Zone and Toe-Stab are too strong, but we both already said our Arguments, so lets agree to disagree here.

But how do you crack Turtles then if not with the Heavy Feint? Do these Turtle Guys only go for Light Parrys? Well thats pretty cowardly. Normally PKs often get me by being fast and mixing their Stuff up so i can't predict what they will do. Does even a Feint into a Zone never hit? (That one often gets me.) Or Feint into GB? Even throwing some "Dumb" moves every now and then can catch an Opponent of Guard. Does non of this rellly work? And if they Turtle that much, (i assume they only do that in Duels, since in Dmonion too muchb Turtle will get you ganked.) how boring are the fights? Parry Light--> Heavy rinse repeat?

Charmzzz
10-10-2017, 07:13 PM
Well what irks me personally are Characters who are fast and have more than one Unblockable, of course i was exteraggating with Dozens^^. In my Opinion still his Zone and Toe-Stab are too strong, but we both already said our Arguments, so lets agree to disagree here.

But how do you crack Turtles then if not with the Heavy Feint? Do these Turtle Guys only go for Light Parrys? Well thats pretty cowardly. Normally PKs often get me by being fast and mixing their Stuff up so i can't predict what they will do. Does even a Feint into a Zone never hit? (That one often gets me.) Or Feint into GB? Even throwing some "Dumb" moves every now and then can catch an Opponent of Guard. Does non of this rellly work? And if they Turtle that much, (i assume they only do that in Duels, since in Dmonion too muchb Turtle will get you ganked.) how boring are the fights? Parry Light--> Heavy rinse repeat?

Exactly this - parry waiting. Feint into something is slow cause the feint animation plays and then you can input something else. The only thing that works 1-2 times is the heavy soft feint GB. Otherwise that is how Duels and Tournaments in high platinum are like.

SoulEavens
10-10-2017, 07:34 PM
Exactly this - parry waiting. Feint into something is slow cause the feint animation plays and then you can input something else. The only thing that works 1-2 times is the heavy soft feint GB. Otherwise that is how Duels and Tournaments in high platinum are like.

Well damn sorry to hear that. This makes me almost feel Grateful that my Blackscreenfreeze bug practically forces me into Dominion most of the Time.
I can't imagine how boring the Fights must be. Brrr Kinda sad that People want to win so much that they sacrifice all the Fun, thats kinda the Reason to play, but well it seems some People only care about winning.

DoctorMcBatman
10-10-2017, 09:26 PM
Each time I see this thread title I keep thinking Coney Hatch. Anyone get me? (I doubt it :( )