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TommyMacpherson
10-08-2017, 11:24 PM
This is more of a new thread to see other players opinions regarding the shinobi.. now I just played a game.. And I will admit I have not had a game with two shinobi's in a long time.. And now the centurion is nerfed and the shinobi just got buffed. That was the exact game I was in.. before this didn't bother me.. their health was low.. a shinobi could be taken down pretty easily... And then.

THE BUFF.

Now forgive me for this thread, I will probably get a lot of hate for this. But I just played a game with two shinobi's.. i recently took up Berserker (rep 1 and a half) as my new main.. And they just danced around me. The whole time.. a nice lively pretty dance. And I am just gonna put this out there. The game ended with a shinobi with 15 kills to 3 deaths.. the other.. 10 kills to around the same deaths.. And I was utterly amazed at how two players shared 25 kills between them.. however fear not people! I got but a single kill on the shinobi!! And this is where my concerns slightly escalate.. Because with the new buff and nerf of centurion.. I feel there is definitely more emphasise on using shinobi. And to be honest I actually cannot deal with a shinobi as a Berserker.. And I am concerned that as the cent dies off which he already has.. (seen a lot less players using him). The shinobi will be taken up with open arms.. Because the shinobi is a absolute monster.. a agile monster... EVERYTHING MY BESERKER SHOULD BE!! except the agile bit.. anyway thoughts??? Concerns?? Cheers!

Antonioj26
10-08-2017, 11:41 PM
If this one match is your proof shin is OP then I'm afraid you aren't going to convince many people. Those scores are far from unattainable and I myself could do that with any character in the game if I have even a rep levels worth of experience with them.

North.Wolf
10-09-2017, 12:42 AM
I have a lot of trouble with him too since the buff. Especially in 1vs1. He's annoying in 4vs4 but if anybody in your team hurts him a bit he flees away to safety and you're good or he stays and he's way less effective when being attacked by multiple players.

But in 1vs1, it seems like a good one or even an ok Shinobi can dance around me, hits me faster everytime with his lights, the kick seems to be a lot more efficient too since the stamina reduction cost for double dodge. If the double dodge was only being followed by a kick I'd adapt easily, but it can be followed by a lot of different possibilities. Also, if he misses the kick he can backflip to safety or follow up with something else if I try to punish the kick.

I feel like he's a bit too strong right now. He was already annoying to fight against, but now he's annoying and really strong imo.

As for the good k/d/a OP is referring to, I don't feel like it's a valid point since I see better score all the time with a lot of different characters. But I get the fact that he finds him a little too strong right now.

RoosterIlluzion
10-09-2017, 03:43 AM
This is more of a new thread to see other players opinions regarding the shinobi.. now I just played a game.. And I will admit I have not had a game with two shinobi's in a long time.. And now the centurion is nerfed and the shinobi just got buffed. That was the exact game I was in.. before this didn't bother me.. their health was low.. a shinobi could be taken down pretty easily... And then.

THE BUFF.

Now forgive me for this thread, I will probably get a lot of hate for this. But I just played a game with two shinobi's.. i recently took up Berserker (rep 1 and a half) as my new main.. And they just danced around me. The whole time.. a nice lively pretty dance. And I am just gonna put this out there. The game ended with a shinobi with 15 kills to 3 deaths.. the other.. 10 kills to around the same deaths.. And I was utterly amazed at how two players shared 25 kills between them.. however fear not people! I got but a single kill on the shinobi!! And this is where my concerns slightly escalate.. Because with the new buff and nerf of centurion.. I feel there is definitely more emphasise on using shinobi. And to be honest I actually cannot deal with a shinobi as a Berserker.. And I am concerned that as the cent dies off which he already has.. (seen a lot less players using him). The shinobi will be taken up with open arms.. Because the shinobi is a absolute monster.. a agile monster... EVERYTHING MY BESERKER SHOULD BE!! except the agile bit.. anyway thoughts??? Concerns?? Cheers!


If this one match is your proof shin is OP then I'm afraid you aren't going to convince many people. Those scores are far from unattainable and I myself could do that with any character in the game if I have even a rep levels worth of experience with them.

You're full of ****. Video or it didn't happen.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 04:27 AM
You're full of ****. Video or it didn't happen.

Who, me? I'll gladly make one, do you really think going 15 and 3 is that ridiculous of a score to have?

darkspawn2101
10-09-2017, 04:30 AM
Had three of them in one match. Got steamrolled because we outright couldn't attack one without geting ganked by two others.

The saving grace of Shinobi is that it's never exactly been potent. It's built off not fighting. Off attacking from range, in a melee combat game. It needs removed, it shouldn't be in a melee combat game if it's entire thing is distance play. Nobushi is fine. This is not.

BOTH CENT AND SHINOBI NEED REMOVED.

Howard_T_J
10-09-2017, 04:49 AM
Haha. Shinobi... How much I hate you. But you make two errors. You're dead. Your the easiest class to kill for me. Unless you're one step ahead of me. But seriously all shinobi die in one heavy and two lights. I'm an orochi player

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 04:51 AM
Haha. Shinobi... How much I hate you. But you make two errors. You're dead. Your the easiest class to kill for me. Unless you're one step ahead of me. But seriously all shinobi die in one heavy and two lights. I'm an orochi player

Not anymore, his health is only 10 less than yours.

darkspawn2101
10-09-2017, 05:22 AM
Haha. Shinobi... How much I hate you. But you make two errors. You're dead. Your the easiest class to kill for me. Unless you're one step ahead of me. But seriously all shinobi die in one heavy and two lights. I'm an orochi player

Good for you. Class still needs removed. A range class in a melee game shouldn't exist period.

RoosterIlluzion
10-09-2017, 05:47 AM
Yes. You said you could go at least 15-3 with every character. Let's see.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 05:51 AM
Yes. You said you could go at least 15-3 with every character. Let's see.

I'll do it with one, im not going to make 16 videos and I also said I could do it with any character I have at least a reps level worth. I'll let you pick since you seem to think it's so difficult to score 15-3. I play as warden, conqueror, I could figure out pk, lawbringer, raider, warlord, Valkyrie, kensei, shugo, and shinobi.

brashtralas
10-09-2017, 05:53 AM
Personally, I thought the shinobi was balanced with the capability to be overpowered before the buff. Iíve fought several shinobi that used their extreme mobility to choose when to fight.

I couldnít catch them, engage in any way, unless they wanted me to. It is the most frustrating fight in the game. The very good ones know when to use ranged attacks, and when not to.

Heís a high risk, high reward character, but Iíd almost say his reward was greater than risk before the buff.

It could just be that Iím weakest against him personally, but Iíd say his design and move set are inherently greater due to mobility and range.

RoosterIlluzion
10-09-2017, 06:06 AM
Nah big shot. Every ****ing character. If not, you need to stfu and sit down.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 06:10 AM
Nah big shot. Every ****ing character. If not, you need to stfu and sit down.

lol I get one maybe two hours a day during the week to play games, I'm not going to waste an entire weeks worth to prove a point to some scrub who thinks 15-3 is difficult to do. I gave you 10 characters who I can do it with and I'm letting you pick whichever one you think the weakest is. That's kinda the whole point of the post was that scoring 15-3 doesn't make a character overpowered so theoretically if I can do it with the weakest I should be able to do it with everyone else don't ya think?

Tundra 793
10-09-2017, 06:18 AM
I'm gonna side with Antonio here. It doesn't even have to come down to skill, it's just luck. Anyone can get 15-3 with any class if they're lucky, on a good day.

Keep in mind, 15-3 does not mean you won three 4v1s or actually bested the enemy team 15 times, just means you got some good hits in. This is profoundly easier for Shinobi's, they just gotta land a few ranged hits and they'll still get the credit for a kill.
Like Antonio says, anyone can manage this. I could grab my level 7 something Shinobi and manage it, or my Rep 19 Berserker and do it. All I gotta do get a score like that is not die, and poke people with lights.
I have a screenshot somewhere from when I first started out and went 13-0 with a level 10 Berserker.

There's nothing unusual about a 15-3 score, even from a now buffed Shinobi.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 06:29 AM
I'm gonna side with Antonio here. It doesn't even have to come down to skill, it's just luck. Anyone can get 15-3 with any class if they're lucky, on a good day.

Keep in mind, 15-3 does not mean you won three 4v1s or actually bested the enemy team 15 times, just means you got some good hits in. This is profoundly easier for Shinobi's, they just gotta land a few ranged hits and they'll still get the credit for a kill.
Like Antonio says, anyone can manage this. I could grab my level 7 something Shinobi and manage it, or my Rep 19 Berserker and do it. All I gotta do get a score like that is not die, and poke people with lights.
I have a screenshot somewhere from when I first started out and went 13-0 with a level 10 Berserker.

There's nothing unusual about a 15-3 score, even from a now buffed Shinobi.

It really is a terrible argument, honestly whoever comes to the conclusion that 15-3 in one match makes a character overpowered please just do me one favor. Picture whoever you think the weakest character in the game is, now tell me do you think there was not 1 time ever that specific character has gone 15-3 in a single game? If you think they haven't you are delusional.

bmason1000
10-09-2017, 06:45 AM
It really is a terrible argument, honestly whoever comes to the conclusion that 15-3 in one match makes a character overpowered please just do me one favor. Picture whoever you think the weakest character in the game is, now tell me do you think there was not 1 time ever that specific character has gone 15-3 in a single game? If you think they haven't you are delusional.Yyyep. I've got screen shots of scoreboards where i went 20+ and 3, something like 18 - 0 with berserker and i don't think anyone's shouting about how OP zerk is.

See, i took the screenshot because that's not a common outcome and it was exciting for me. Because berserker isn't overpowered and yet it still happened.

RoosterIlluzion
10-09-2017, 07:05 AM
I don't give a ****. This post was about shinobi getting 15 kills in a game, and if he's the weakest character, he shouldn't out score any other, right? That's not even average for most players. You brag about being some superstar, elite player but won't back it up. Like I said, stfu and sit down. You won't even post a video doing 15 kills with shinobi cause you can't.

Tundra 793
10-09-2017, 07:10 AM
I don't give a ****. This post was about shinobi getting 15 kills in a game, and if he's the weakest character, he shouldn't out score any other, right? That's not even average for most players. You brag about being some superstar, elite player but won't back it up. Like I said, stfu and sit down. You won't even post a video doing 15 kills with shinobi cause you can't.

Well, someone's jimmies sure are rustled.

So lets everybody just calm the **** down, and have a calm, rational conversation, yes? Glad we agree.

The crux of the argument here, is that 1 shinobi, in 1 game, is not in any meaningful way indicative of overall balance.
Tommy's concerns are valid, but we need way more information from a lot of more matches to determine whether or not the Shinobi got overbuffed.

Furthermore, getting 15 kills, and less than 10 deaths is not uncommon, or abnormal. Like i said before, getting stats like that might have nothing to do with ones personal skill level, more often than not it's just luck, or due to a particular cautious playstyle.

RoosterIlluzion
10-09-2017, 07:28 AM
Bad argument. You don't get 15 kills in even a dominion match playing "carefully." Against **** players, maybe. I've gotten 10+ multiple times, but with a character that wasn't under powered or nerfed or buffed. Consistent. It's a little odd that shinobi was claimed to be "****ty and needed a buff" by most players, yer here he comes after buff and he's all over the field, dancing and flipping, killing people like nothing. It's definitely worth a look over the next few weeks to see some stats. I've gone up against level 2 shinobi bots and I'll tell you, I've never lost to a shinobi bot since they released. Now, it's different.

Tundra 793
10-09-2017, 07:38 AM
Bad argument.

I believe my argument is pretty solid. I'll elaborate;


You don't get 15 kills in even a dominion match playing "carefully."

As I mentioned earlier, getting 15 kills credited to you, does not mean you have bested 15 people in combat, or beaten several 1vX engagements. It just means you had done enough damage to a player to get credit for a kill. Something Shinobis can do relatively easily due to their range and speed.



I've gotten 10+ multiple times, but with a character that wasn't under powered or nerfed or buffed.

I've seen Kensei's and Zerkers and Raider all get more than 10 kills, even at their weakest. A good player can make a bad character great.



It's a little odd that shinobi was claimed to be "****ty and needed a buff" by most players, yer here he comes after buff and he's all over the field, dancing and flipping, killing people like nothing.

Would it not be a reasonable assumption, that because the Shinobi was given a high profile buff, more attention is on him these days? People wanting to try him out now that he's "better", people reacting to the idea that he now may be OP?
On top of the simple fact that of course the character simply is better than before.

This is still a far cry from being OP.


It's definitely worth a look over the next few weeks to see some stats. I've gone up against level 2 shinobi bots and I'll tell you, I've never lost to a shinobi bot since they released. Now, it's different.

It's meant to be different, but more time is needed to find out exactly how much the buff affected him. Just like more time is needed to see how the Centurion's nerfs affected him.

SoulEavens
10-09-2017, 07:50 AM
Hello! I have played quite a few Heroes, Berserker is my secondary Hero, and i am also moonlightning as a Shinobi every now and then. Personally i don't have much of a Problem with them, but you need to be very Careful whil Fighting them. They can dish out a LOT of hurt, but they still die as easily as Flys. If a Shinobi gets ganked, cought in a 4v4 Cluster, or cought anywhere where he can't run away he is dead in seconds. His buffed Health now actually makes him far more playable since you have slightly more room for Mistakes.

His ranged Attacks are only strong in a Gank, if the enemy doesn't see him/or is charging at him, while the Shino charges up otherwise you can easily counterguarbreak or parry the range Attack and throw him to the Ground.

What i see a lot of shinobis do is baiting. They bait you to Attack, dodge around and then they Spam lights. The Trick is not to get baited by them, if you go in and Attack hasty because you want that kill they will play you like a Fiddle.

As a fellow (well sometimes) Berserker i have the following Advice for you: Get close but for Gods sake, don't do the running Attack, once your close many shinobis will try to Dodge out of range which means you can get a free GB. Try to Bait him with Feints, and try to get a Single light in, from there you can get your combos in. If does Light Spamming IMMMEDIATLY stop Attacking, his Lights will always be faster than yours and will interrupt you, even hyperarmor doesn't help much, since the second light comes so quick and interrupts you. Block the Lights and if you can: Parry, then go on to the Punish. Also if they do ther Jump Attack, do your doge Attack.

Most importend thing again: Don't be baited into Attacking recklessly, when they will just dodge away and get a free punish.

watsonclan335u
10-09-2017, 08:17 AM
Wtf We are right back where we were, ffs there is no excuse for this trash. Fix one tumor and grow a new cancer....this character was a screw up from the jump and now a massive boost back to where it was again? Who dreams this tripe up? Do you need at least one bandwagon spam character for all these jerks to hop on? I canít believe whatís going on here, he was in a good place in the right hands now heís unstoppable in theirs and downright formidable in any morons hands. Lifeís lessons are repeated until learned and this is getting old.

Charmzzz
10-09-2017, 08:41 AM
Wtf We are right back where we were, ffs there is no excuse for this trash. Fix one tumor and grow a new cancer....this character was a screw up from the jump and now a massive boost back to where it was again? Who dreams this tripe up? Do you need at least one bandwagon spam character for all these jerks to hop on? I can’t believe what’s going on here, he was in a good place in the right hands now he’s unstoppable in theirs and downright formidable in any morons hands. Life’s lessons are repeated until learned and this is getting old.

Signed. Shin got definitely overbuffed imo, played some Matches against good ones and if they decide that they don't want to fight you - no chance to get them. And that is a problem in Dominion, if there is 2 Shin in the other team they will always outnumber you. Always. Because nobody can do the super-sprint and switch locations so fast. Plus the Sickle Rain is, together with Demon Embrace and Cut-Scene-Cent, the best gank ability in the game. Shin gets you in Sickle Rain with a Mate nearby? Congrats, you die because no hit will break the Cut-Scene... GG Ubi...

Tobias96716
10-09-2017, 10:17 AM
Shinobi desperately needed a buff, it was VERY high risk and no real reward, Now its High risk High reward like it should be. Before the buff you miss a kick you would be completely screwed with no stam and no way to defend yourself. Now Shinobi can actually defend themselves so they are not 1 or 2 shot. They are still very predictable and can be punished if they screw up. It just seems like people got used to a Shinobi running out of stam in the first volley of attacks and ripping them in 2 or 3 hits. Now that the Shinobi can actually attack and get away without being completely screwed people cant handle it and are calling for nerfs already.

Tyler-Durdin
10-09-2017, 10:38 AM
Practice against them instead of going off and crying.
Calling for nerfs and buffs only creates more havoc and more whiners.
Learn to expect that there are players who have better skills than you.
Only people here to blame are the people who complained so hard about certain characters and now they have changed same story in a different body, perhaps said people should shut their holes and enjoy what the devs envisioned instead of constant complaints.
Morale to the story community input is seldom correct input.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 12:05 PM
I don't give a ****. This post was about shinobi getting 15 kills in a game, and if he's the weakest character, he shouldn't out score any other, right? That's not even average for most players. You brag about being some superstar, elite player but won't back it up. Like I said, stfu and sit down. You won't even post a video doing 15 kills with shinobi cause you can't.

Lol you are unreasonably upset, friend. Bmason said he has screenshots of him getting 18-0 with zerk, who is widely considered one of the worst heroes in the game getting, 15-3 is not difficult. So do you want me to do the video with shinobi then? I'm willing to back it up and by the way going 15-3 doesn't make someone an elite player, just be reasonable since I have time constraints. Hell give me 3 of the characters you think are the weakest on the list I gave and I'll do a video of each.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 12:08 PM
I've gone up against level 2 shinobi bots and I'll tell you, I've never lost to a shinobi bot since they released. Now, it's different.

Oh, now I see why you thinking getting 15-3 is so difficult. Lol

Klingentaenz3r
10-09-2017, 12:54 PM
Signed. Shin got definitely overbuffed imo, played some Matches against good ones and if they decide that they don't want to fight you - no chance to get them. And that is a problem in Dominion, if there is 2 Shin in the other team they will always outnumber you. Always. Because nobody can do the super-sprint and switch locations so fast. Plus the Sickle Rain is, together with Demon Embrace and Cut-Scene-Cent, the best gank ability in the game. Shin gets you in Sickle Rain with a Mate nearby? Congrats, you die because no hit will break the Cut-Scene... GG Ubi...

Amen. Not only that it leads you into a cut scene and deals quite a lot of damage you also get a lot of stamina damage. But this all is in my opinion entirely separated from the buff a general issue of his kit. The buff only makes him less squishy and gives him more stamina which in return encourages more people to try him again.
So now of course it is more likely to see him more often and even more than once in a team.

Shinobis acting together in a map or a place with a lot of space is indeed a fearsome ganking ability. The game offers just a little too less catching abilities for the immens amount of distance these guys can work with. Some characters can be really helpless facing that. Guess you can only pray for now that some Highlanders are on your team as well (since they are actually pretty good at catching them).

I am hoping still hoping that it works out not as bad as I could imagine (although from my experience thus far it was always very frustrating and annoying to have a shinobi as a second opponent. Sometimes even more than Cent)

SenBotsu893
10-09-2017, 01:50 PM
the hell is this threat? so if i get a a score of about 15-1 in a dominion my character is op? wow damn i didnt knew kensei and Highlander were that op.
quick we need to nerf those insanely op characters because they manage to get such a high K/D/A.

seriously if you could deal with shinobi before you can do it now. you need like 1 more attack on him but that is clearly enough to make him borderline op. geez

also sickle rain does get interrupted by friendly hits because it got the same treatment as the cent snare (thank god for that). Unlike stampede charge or Lawbringers impaling charge wich are not interrupted by his allies hitting around like maniacs

Charmzzz
10-09-2017, 03:54 PM
also sickle rain does get interrupted by friendly hits because it got the same treatment as the cent snare (thank god for that). Unlike stampede charge or Lawbringers impaling charge wich are not interrupted by his allies hitting around like maniacs

Nope. Not if the animation started playing, you will NOT get out. 100% sure on this. Your only chance is that the enemy mate interrupts the Shinobi while "pulling you down on your knees" is playing, after that - GG.

SenBotsu893
10-09-2017, 04:11 PM
Nope. Not if the animation started playing, you will NOT get out. 100% sure on this. Your only chance is that the enemy mate interrupts the Shinobi while "pulling you down on your knees" is playing, after that - GG.

i have litterally expirenced the opposite yesterday.
when a shinibo got me i thought:" great thats it" but i got freed by an enemy raider doing his raiders fury. i was pretty much dead anyway but i got free.

so it is possible that it gets interrupted. maybe it depends on what kind of attacks come flying in.

regardless the sickle rain is much more managabe due to it beeing a simple gb wich if counterd sends the shinobi to the floor.
stampede charge and the impaling charge are way harder to deal with in 4v4 sitioations and even in 1v1 situations

TommyMacpherson
10-09-2017, 05:20 PM
Lol this post got a lot of traction... But anyway yes. 15 kills to three deaths.. 25 kills in total shared between two shinobi's.. And to be fair they could have done a lot worse.. it looked like they were barely trying. They were good shinobi players that knew what they were doing.. But my concern wasn't the kills.. despite them dancing around us.. my concern is that players take up shinobi's and it will mostly become a waiting game, because like said previously they bait.. And to be honest they are fast. Now imagine 3 or even 4 shinobi's on a team.. And yes I can see that happening in all honesty... And relax guys. Not here to be toxic.. just want some general feedback and thoughts.. also too early to say anything about the buff.. thanks :)

Devils-_-legacy
10-09-2017, 05:22 PM
Hes good at evading and lights not much else

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 05:25 PM
Lol this post got a lot of traction... But anyway yes. 15 kills to three deaths.. 25 kills in total shared between two shinobi's.. And to be fair they could have done a lot worse.. it looked like they were barely trying. They were good shinobi players that knew what they were doing.. But my concern wasn't the kills.. despite them dancing around us.. my concern is that players take up shinobi's and it will mostly become a waiting game, because like said previously they bait.. And to be honest they are fast. Now imagine 3 or even 4 shinobi's on a team.. And yes I can see that happening in all honesty... And relax guys. Not here to be toxic.. just want some general feedback and thoughts.. also too early to say anything about the buff.. thanks :)

I'm not saying the changes have or haven't made him OP but the scores you gave can be achieved by any hero. It's not limited to heroes that are OP.

Devils-_-legacy
10-09-2017, 05:29 PM
Before the buff his stamina ment he couldn't use the flips efficient you when they into out of staming after 2 flips and heavy and 90 health he was a tissue paper was hard to use one mistake and your dead now he more of a chance in dominon

SwellChemosabe
10-09-2017, 05:59 PM
i can't seem to upload an image but based on the logic presented here that means that any time someone gets more than 15 kills in a game that makes it entirely too op

which is complete and utter ********. Not an average score? my dude, i get scores like this on a regular basis. not because i'm "god level skilled player" but because i do my best to work as a member of a team and get a lot of assists. i mean ****, i have an image of the end scoreboard with my teammates averaging 15 kills and me ontop with 26 kills and 5 deaths with a mother****ing berserker.

you really gonna tell me that makes zerker op?

UbiInsulin
10-09-2017, 07:25 PM
Let's refocus this thread on the Shinobi rather than one-off scoreboard screenshots, which are basically anecdotal. We're happy to consider specific feedback on the hero, since they did receive a significant buff.

Tyler-Durdin
10-09-2017, 09:38 PM
It seems to me the whole problem is Ubi making us the play testers.
Change things by all means but stick to your changes you create this game not the players.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 09:43 PM
It seems to me the whole problem is Ubi making us the play testers.
Change things by all means but stick to your changes you create this game not the players.

What I don't get is why they dont ever use the ptr to test out these changes first.

Tyler-Durdin
10-09-2017, 09:57 PM
Ive played a lot of games with community involvement and in each of those the games became garbage because the listened to every crybaby on all topics.
Using players as their base for feedback is essentially death for any game.
Most players who call for such radical changes are unwilling to accept there is a learning curve and are unwilling to learn to begin with.
A top fuel drag racer doesn't get low reaction times from being unwilling to practice. In fact they practice more than they race.
Everyone needs to practice and if your not practicing your asking to get smashed . All these this character is too OP threads would diminish if you accept that practice is required and that there is always a better players somewere out there than you.

Antonioj26
10-09-2017, 10:03 PM
Ive played a lot of games with community involvement and in each of those the games became garbage because the listened to every crybaby on all topics.
Using players as their base for feedback is essentially death for any game.
Most players who call for such radical changes are unwilling to accept there is a learning curve and are unwilling to learn to begin with.
A top fuel drag racer doesn't get low reaction times from being unwilling to practice. In fact they practice more than they race.
Everyone needs to practice and if your not practicing your asking to get smashed . All these this character is too OP threads would diminish if you accept that practice is required and that there is always a better players somewere out there than you.

Well they certainly aren't asking competitive players for feedback. It would also help to avoid stuff like the stampede charge debacle, which was pretty much understood by everyone to be too much. I've seen 1 person to this day defend it so in that case it could have been completely prevented.

watsonclan335u
10-09-2017, 10:06 PM
Shinobi desperately needed a buff, it was VERY high risk and no real reward, Now its High risk High reward like it should be. Before the buff you miss a kick you would be completely screwed with no stam and no way to defend yourself. Now Shinobi can actually defend themselves so they are not 1 or 2 shot. They are still very predictable and can be punished if they screw up. It just seems like people got used to a Shinobi running out of stam in the first volley of attacks and ripping them in 2 or 3 hits. Now that the Shinobi can actually attack and get away without being completely screwed people cant handle it and are calling for nerfs already.

I donít think anyone would disagree shin needed a little love, what is most amazing about this is how much they gave him all at once....especially considering these two factors: 1, the character was nerfed once already because of this cheese, 2, after how conservative the devs were about nerfing the last character that needed re-balancing. These conditions clearly outline just how little they are paying attention to what players are asking for. Anyone that read the laundry list of improvements could see that shin would become the character of choice for displaced centurion cheesemasters.

watsonclan335u
10-09-2017, 10:10 PM
I also donít believe any character that can attack from outside the range of any other player and has some of the fastest light attacks in the game to be a ďhigh riskĒ simply because he has low health either...

PDXGorechild
10-10-2017, 03:20 PM
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=8dd23b1b00&view=att&th=15f06a4b45e86011&attid=0.1&disp=safe&zw

Does this prove that Berserker or Valkyrie are overpowered? No, it proves we was playing against a group of r-tards.

Tyrjo
10-10-2017, 05:39 PM
The Shinobi was overbuffed, in opposite manner of the Warlord who was overnerfed, now rectified though.

Antonioj26
10-10-2017, 05:41 PM
The Shinobi was overbuffed, in opposite manner of the Warlord who was overnerfed, now rectified though.

Then why bring it up? What are you, my passive aggressive ex-girlfriend?

Devils-_-legacy
10-10-2017, 11:24 PM
What else did they do other then 20 hp and less stamina from dodge

Alustar.
10-10-2017, 11:39 PM
I wonder how many people in this thread have actually bothered to try and play Shinobi. It's not an easy class to play effectively, and this was a much needed quality of life buff for him. He didn't get any kind of attack buff, it was all based around his resource management.

mrmistark
10-11-2017, 12:30 AM
I'll just leave this here, because I feel, despite probably upsetting people, the truth needs to be thrown out there.

1) Shinobi is not OP and really never was. Just because you have difficulty against a certain character does not mean they need a nerf.

2) he only got buffed on his stamina so he would be able to accomplish his basic mechanic of double dash after chains etc. without instantly running out of stamina, and his health so that he was no longer a two shot character. He didn't get buffed on damage output or defense.

3) Shinobi is perhaps one of the most predictable characters in the game

4) his kicks after dodge are very punishable, and so are all ranged attacks if parried (they are all heavy attacks so should be relatively easy even for those not so good at parrying) or gb (also very easy to do), pulling the Shinobi to the ground for free damage.

5) if you're having trouble with Shinobi, it is most likely because you relied on them going OOS and punishing with ease, and/or were used to two shoting them. All it takes is an adjustment. I suggest practicing a good 30 mins with all of his moves and watching advanced guide videos to understand his kit, what he can and cannot do, and through this you will inherently get better in a Shinobi match up.

6) Shinobi players tend to dodge a lot. Heavy feint so they try to double dodge kick and gb. Gets a lot of them especially if your attack has HA (kensei, zerk, warlord, HL, shugoki) as they won't be able to trade thus most of the time attempt to just dodge.

Antonioj26
10-11-2017, 12:48 AM
I'll just leave this here, because I feel, despite probably upsetting people, the truth needs to be thrown out there.

1) Shinobi is not OP and really never was. Just because you have difficulty against a certain character does not mean they need a nerf.

2) he only got buffed on his stamina so he would be able to accomplish his basic mechanic of double dash after chains etc. without instantly running out of stamina, and his health so that he was no longer a two shot character. He didn't get buffed on damage output or defense.

3) Shinobi is perhaps one of the most predictable characters in the game

4) his kicks after dodge are very punishable, and so are all ranged attacks if parried (they are all heavy attacks so should be relatively easy even for those not so good at parrying) or gb (also very easy to do), pulling the Shinobi to the ground for free damage.

5) if you're having trouble with Shinobi, it is most likely because you relied on them going OOS and punishing with ease, and/or were used to two shoting them. All it takes is an adjustment. I suggest practicing a good 30 mins with all of his moves and watching advanced guide videos to understand his kit, what he can and cannot do, and through this you will inherently get better in a Shinobi match up.

6) Shinobi players tend to dodge a lot. Heavy feint so they try to double dodge kick and gb. Gets a lot of them especially if your attack has HA (kensei, zerk, warlord, HL, shugoki) as they won't be able to trade thus most of the time attempt to just dodge.

1. If you've ever played at a competitive level you would know this is demonstrably false. Shin at release may be the strongest character there ever was with shugo pre cheese nerf the only one who might have been close.

2. True. Though more stamina means more potential for mixups or dodging which means more defense

3. This is subjective but would say this is wrong since his moveset is wider than just about every original cast member

4.https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=2u5hvdp6#/watch?t=339s&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Tell that to warden. Warden isn't the only one that has this issue either. Parrying long ranged attacks don't work if they are smart enough to not use them unless they know it's safe.

5. This is just an assumption on the opponent and not actually anything to do with shins kit or shin.

6. might work some of the time but now he can survive up to 4-5 heavies meaning that you got to make this work quite a bit to finish him off and how many times is this going to fool an experienced shin?

Im not even saying he's OP as of now, I'm just saying you were wrong on just about everything you said.

mrmistark
10-11-2017, 01:32 AM
1. If you've ever played at a competitive level you would know this is demonstrably false. Shin at release may be the strongest character there ever was with shugo pre cheese nerf the only one who might have been close.

2. True. Though more stamina means more potential for mixups or dodging which means more defense

3. This is subjective but would say this is wrong since his moveset is wider than just about every original cast member

4.https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=2u5hvdp6#/watch?t=339s&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Tell that to warden. Warden isn't the only one that has this issue either. Parrying long ranged attacks don't work if they are smart enough to not use them unless they know it's safe.

5. This is just an assumption on the opponent and not actually anything to do with shins kit or shin.

6. might work some of the time but now he can survive up to 4-5 heavies meaning that you got to make this work quite a bit to finish him off and how many times is this going to fool an experienced shin?

Im not even saying he's OP as of now, I'm just saying you were wrong on just about everything you said.

1) I do and have, he's never been an honest problemexcept for in a ganking situation. There is a reason Shinobi hasn't seen a lot of play except for release (when he first came out) and currently (due to buffs that make him not the weakest character in the game anymore). That's because frankly his health sucked, and really his stamina pool was horrible too.

2) yes, he may be able to have more mix up potential now, but on the level that valk has a shield bash mix up. It comes in a prescribed time of other moves making it at least back of mind anticipated if you know Shinobi play style at all, and it still being reactable makes it still very punishable.

3) again, may have many moves, but if you understand at which times he can use these moves They shouldn't give you that much trouble.

4) the example in your video was not a ranged attack, so not sure what exactly you're going for on this one. All charged range attacks are all punishable. That's a fact...

5) "most likely". Key quote there. So you'd be correct. If you'd read the OP post you'd understand he is having trouble against Shinobi. this post is not only focused on Shinobi, rather OPs difficulty.

6) in my experience, works about 2 times. It works quite well honestly. If your opponent gets used to it then they just will stop dodging, which against Shinobi is a good thing. Come to think of it, there goes a good chunk of the viabl "extensive moveset" once they become too skidish to dodge your heavies.

Antonioj26
10-11-2017, 01:43 AM
1) I do and have, he's never been an honest problemexcept for in a ganking situation. There is a reason Shinobi hasn't seen a lot of play except for release (when he first came out) and currently (due to buffs that make him not the weakest character in the game anymore). That's because frankly his health sucked, and really his stamina pool was horrible too.

2) yes, he may be able to have more mix up potential now, but on the level that valk has a shield bash mix up. It comes in a prescribed time of other moves making it at least back of mind anticipated if you know Shinobi play style at all, and it still being reactable makes it still very punishable.

3) again, may have many moves, but if you understand at which times he can use these moves They shouldn't give you that much trouble.

4) the example in your video was not a ranged attack, so not sure what exactly you're going for on this one. All charged range attacks are all punishable. That's a fact...

5) "most likely". Key quote there. So you'd be correct. If you'd read the OP post you'd understand he is having trouble against Shinobi. this post is not only focused on Shinobi, rather OPs difficulty.

6) in my experience, works about 2 times. It works quite well honestly. If your opponent gets used to it then they just will stop dodging, which against Shinobi is a good thing. Come to think of it, there goes a good chunk of the viabl "extensive moveset" once they become too skidish to dodge your heavies.

1.) doubt it, the competitive scene unanimously acknowledged how broken he was at release. After the nerf sure, but at release he destroyed.

2.) he still can do it more, I didn't say it was more effective

3.) still more than the majority of the original cast,

4.) you said the kick was highly punishable and I'm showing you it's not. No they are not all punishable, if he catches you in recovery frames you can't cgb

5.) don't care still nothing to do shin

6.) two times doesn't kill a shin especially if you're going to fight him more than once. Won't stop him from dodging as much as it stops or limits reactive dodges and if he knows proper spacing it's moot anyway

mrmistark
10-11-2017, 02:14 AM
1.) doubt it, the competitive scene unanimously acknowledged how broken he was at release. After the nerf sure, but at release he destroyed.

2.) he still can do it more, I didn't say it was more effective

3.) still more than the majority of the original cast,

4.) you said the kick was highly punishable and I'm showing you it's not. No they are not all punishable, if he catches you in recovery frames you can't cgb

5.) don't care still nothing to do shin

6.) two times doesn't kill a shin especially if you're going to fight him more than once. Won't stop him from dodging as much as it stops or limits reactive dodges and if he knows proper spacing it's moot anyway

1) sure he was stronger on release, but honestly I wouldn't have called it op, guess that's an opinion from two sides of the coin.

2) if you didn't think it was more effective then what was your argument? Not being rude, genuinely curious. The buffs honestly gave him exactly what he needed to be rather balanced, or at least closer to.

3) more moves in theory is great, but if half of them arent viable/ punishable past reward, then it doesn't give more than what more condensed yet more safe/viable movesets offer in value.

4) perhaps the link starts on the wrong portion of the video, but what I watched through showed no kick, rather a simple double dodge into heavy. If a Shinobi is charging an attack, what would you be recovering from? Perhaps you are referring to Shinobi being a strong ganker and in a situation in which you are fighting another player? 1v1 his charge attacks are pretty mediocre at best.

5) if you don't care then leave this part out and/or don't post on a thread which 80% is the writers difficulties with said matchup.

6) 2 times doesn't kill a Shinobi. I never claimed it did. Shinobi non reactive dodges lead into predictable moves. This is a tool that works well for the reactive dodger. You're right in assuming you're in range for it to work, but then again, if you aren't skilled enough to get into range or punish their ranged attacks it's a lost cause anyways and you need more practice to begin with.

Antonioj26
10-11-2017, 02:27 AM
1) sure he was stronger on release, but honestly I wouldn't have called it op, guess that's an opinion from two sides of the coin.

2) if you didn't think it was more effective then what was your argument? Not being rude, genuinely curious. The buffs honestly gave him exactly what he needed to be rather balanced, or at least closer to.

3) more moves in theory is great, but if half of them arent viable/ punishable past reward, then it doesn't give more than what more condensed yet more safe/viable movesets offer in value.

4) perhaps the link starts on the wrong portion of the video, but what I watched through showed no kick, rather a simple double dodge into heavy. If a Shinobi is charging an attack, what would you be recovering from? Perhaps you are referring to Shinobi being a strong ganker and in a situation in which you are fighting another player? 1v1 his charge attacks are pretty mediocre at best.

5) if you don't care then leave this part out and/or don't post on a thread which 80% is the writers difficulties with said matchup.

6) 2 times doesn't kill a Shinobi. I never claimed it did. Shinobi non reactive dodges lead into predictable moves. This is a tool that works well for the reactive dodger. You're right in assuming you're in range for it to work, but then again, if you aren't skilled enough to get into range or punish their ranged attacks it's a lost cause anyways and you need more practice to begin with.

1.) depends on what you're definition of OP is, but if he wasn't then no one was because he's hands down the best character at that time.

2.) I meant they are the same he can just do them more.

3.) I hate to sound like a broken record but....

4.) the charge gb is almost instant you can catch them on whiffed attacks or dodge recovery. https://m.youtube.com/watch?&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Sorry I don't know why it started at that mark that was weird and my fault

6.) shin can control the fight, he decides when to engage or disengage. That's his strongest suit, if he doesn't want to fight you you are not going to fight him.

tumenergia
10-13-2017, 10:32 PM
Shinobi shouldn't be nerfed. He still has the lowest health. slowest heavy, bad feats and worst zone attack.

Other characters can shoulderbash, shield bash, kick, pin down or stagger, shove in all kind of ways. Shinobi only has the kick. It is a good thing they reduced the stamina on that a bit

Antonioj26
10-13-2017, 10:54 PM
Shinobi shouldn't be nerfed. He still has the lowest health. slowest heavy, bad feats and worst zone attack.

Other characters can shoulderbash, shield bash, kick, pin down or stagger, shove in all kind of ways. Shinobi only has the kick. It is a good thing they reduced the stamina on that a bit

Lowest health by 10 and shares the same with centurion. His heavies are not the slowest, first is 800 ms and 700ms that's average to slightly above average. His feats are fine, his number 4 passive is very strong. Zone is far from the worst it's 500ms, safe on block, and puts you out of gb range if parried. Some characters have those things you mentioned not all, and most aren't as effective as shins kick.

Devils-_-legacy
10-14-2017, 06:34 PM
If parried he's either lying on the floor or he can be gb after. The tier 4 feat is strong ability so are other tier 4 feats catapult a one shot if hit javelin can take most of your health. he's a annoying hero but how is he over powered the kick is just a double dodge, one for the kick second for heavy or ranged gb highlander has a kick to gb that floors you i think

Antonioj26
10-14-2017, 06:59 PM
If parried he's either lying on the floor or he can be gb after. The tier 4 feat is strong ability so are other tier 4 feats catapult a one shot if hit javelin can take most of your health. he's a annoying hero but how is he over powered the kick is just a double dodge, one for the kick second for heavy or ranged gb highlander has a kick to gb that floors you i think

No he does not end up on the floor with a zone parry nor can you gb him. The catapults last once maybe twice per game, shins passive is for the remainders of the match. You are also comparing it to hands down the best tier 4, I noticed you conveniently left out the crappier ones. I'm still not saying he's over powered but the post before mine was just flat out wrong.

TommyMacpherson
10-15-2017, 02:10 AM
I am not denying Shinboi needed a buff. It was the stamina rather than health that destroyed shinobi; in my opinion. Shinobi's stamina before buff was terrible. The health however should have remained at 90 while the stamina should have been buffed. The dodge and the lights still make shinobi deadly at 90 health.. And with the tweaked stamina as it is now; I could no doubt get the same takedowns/kills mentioned earlier in the thread. I think the buff was just slightly too much. The stamina just needed the changes. He could barely do anything pre buff. I wasn't even rep one with shinobi before the buff.. despite the massive disadvantage and I did ok... now that his health is over 90.. With the flips lights and all.. it just makes it a hell of a lot easier to use shinobi, which I think takes away from the character as a whole. I liked the high risk/reward scenario. Shinobi can play defensively but can also be just as aggressive especially when a players stamina is out.. because shinobi can move in and out of a players reach without an issue. Stamina buff I agree on. Health should be 90. Also really sorry to say.. a lot of players rely on the kicks and grabs too much. I see a lot of shinobi players just go straight for kicks... And that is great and all; but it is predictable. Doesn't warrant this unnecessary health buff. And actually just mentioned earlier.. the aggressive playstyle on shinobi.. I actually don't see a lot of.. I see a lot of defensive play.. grabs at a distance.. as far as getting ganked or teamed.. not a lot of players actually have much of a chance if getting ganked anyway.. not that being ganked is a problem.. (the sprint that can be used on shinobi).. but yeah my opinion 😁

Malyngo
10-15-2017, 03:14 PM
Even if you are willing to try it, if you are facing a team with 3-4 Shinobis, you might just as well leave right at the beginning. With all the host migration **** going on after the start, chances that you will be finishing this match are super slim. So you can just spare yourself the pain and leave immidately.

tumenergia
10-18-2017, 01:42 PM
No he does not end up on the floor with a zone parry nor can you gb him. The catapults last once maybe twice per game, shins passive is for the remainders of the match. You are also comparing it to hands down the best tier 4, I noticed you conveniently left out the crappier ones. I'm still not saying he's over powered but the post before mine was just flat out wrong.

Disagree

Baturai
10-19-2017, 04:46 PM
Tbh i was verrry angry about shinobi at the beginning. why be angry ?i just changed my Main. I play fulltime Shinobi now.. and spamm the **** out of people. it feels so goood to see how helpless people are ahahaha xD... Thanks Ubi.

everytime you OVER BUFF a Hero ill change my main and Master it and make your Game more cancerous :o

shinon1030
10-19-2017, 05:25 PM
True ninja glitch
https://i.imgur.com/XP32U2H.gif