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robban75
07-23-2004, 12:02 PM
Dear Mr Maddox.

I've been flying the Fw 190 since the very beginning of IL2 and FB.
And I have to say that the 190(save the 152) is probably the most unstable gunplattform in the game.
Mostly it's the much too sensitive rudder and the adverse yaw effect that causes difficulties in aiming.
From what I understand, this problem was also brought forth by the famous Eric Brown!

I've tried several adjustments in game in order to get a more stable platform in the 190, but I haven't succeeded yet.

Is it just me?

If not,,

,,any chance for a more stable Fw 190 in the future?

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robban75
07-23-2004, 12:02 PM
Dear Mr Maddox.

I've been flying the Fw 190 since the very beginning of IL2 and FB.
And I have to say that the 190(save the 152) is probably the most unstable gunplattform in the game.
Mostly it's the much too sensitive rudder and the adverse yaw effect that causes difficulties in aiming.
From what I understand, this problem was also brought forth by the famous Eric Brown!

I've tried several adjustments in game in order to get a more stable platform in the 190, but I haven't succeeded yet.

Is it just me?

If not,,

,,any chance for a more stable Fw 190 in the future?

Feel free to agree or disagree everyone! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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VW-IceFire
07-23-2004, 12:04 PM
Simple solution...change the rudder settings. My accuracy went up. The 109 shakes around a whole lot more than the 190 does. Thats what I figured they would mean by stability.

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faustnik
07-23-2004, 12:08 PM
I think it is the excessive roll rate. The 190 roll rate is just way too high.

Unfortunatley it is relatively correct or even undermodeled compared to its oponents (if anyone needs a chart, I'll post one). So, all the 190 gets out of the deal is instability.

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robban75
07-23-2004, 12:09 PM
Thanks for the swift reply IceFire!

That helps somewhat, but the adverse yaw is still there, and it is VERY strong. It really flips the the nose of the 190 back and forth most violently, when compared to other fighters.

Perhaps it has to do with the snappy rollrate, that it is just "speeded up" and therefore the yawing motion also reacts in the same way.

Am I making any sense? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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robban75
07-23-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I think it is the excessive roll rate. The 190 roll rate is just way too high.

Unfortunatley it is relatively correct or even undermodeled compared to its oponents (if anyone needs a chart, I'll post one). So, all the 190 gets out of the deal is instability.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Excellent point Faust! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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diomedes33
07-23-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
So, all the 190 gets out of the deal is instability.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was having a lot of problems with 190 gunnery a few weeks ago, I tried dumbing down my joystick settings for pitch and roll and it helped improve it alot.

I set the first three setting to 0 5 7 and then climbed exponentially up to 100 on the last number. It still tweaks out a bit, but at least its managable now.


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VW-IceFire
07-23-2004, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
Thanks for the swift reply IceFire!

That helps somewhat, but the adverse yaw is still there, and it is VERY strong. It really flips the the nose of the 190 back and forth most violently, when compared to other fighters.

Perhaps it has to do with the snappy rollrate, that it is just "speeded up" and therefore the yawing motion also reacts in the same way.

Am I making any sense? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know it swings back and forth a little yes...I learned to use that to effect. I use that to spray the target at very close range. It can be used to your advantage.

The IL-2 sways a whole lot more...so the FW seems mild. Of course, the IL2 is a attack bomber and the FW is a high performance fighter.

I think that the rudder work will help...a very steady rudder job and you'll be ok.

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IVJG51_Swine
07-23-2004, 12:43 PM
This is a good topic to discuss. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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WWMaxGunz
07-23-2004, 12:45 PM
I, cough, remember when higher roll rates for the FW's were demanded and some who did
the demands and others who supported them. But.....

Control is something else. I suggest that players looking for smoother try using the
slider named Filter and apply liberally (lots of).

Robban, if the nose is swinging back and forth and you are not using rudder then letting
it back when you think you have the nose correct then your rudder control, stick or
settings not how you use it, is very poor maybe worse than my cheap-s__t stick. Do you
have a deadzone on rudder? If so, it can cut out to nothing while you think you are
still applying rudder. If not, it may be falsing on you. With filter set in at least
those things will be smoothed out and not instant back and forth.

Always use rudder when rolling a plane that has so much adverse yaw unless the reason
for the yaw is how you are banking.

There is also that all trims and rigging change with speed and the FW is easy to change
speed in between vertical and turns, especially if you try and turn hard. Even more,
the backforce on the controls changes with speed and your joystick does not set control
stick position but rather how much strength is applied to the stick, no? So you hold
your joystick steady, the pilot pulls X number of pounds, kilos, whatever, and what
happens when the backforce changes? You slow down, more stick gets pulled, be aware.
Mostly it balances out as slower speed needs more deflect for same performance but
when you are trimmed, your mileage may vary as the scales have changed a bit once the
zero strength point moves.
For that reason alone, I use for pitch all 100's and set trim neutral before maneuvers
as it works best overall. Fine aim is not so easy, but possible with practice.


Neal

faustnik
07-23-2004, 12:53 PM
You know Neal we might not be making this stuff up every time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Don't you think that there is any merit to my roll rate point?

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LEXX_Luthor
07-23-2004, 01:44 PM
robban try 0 1 2 4 6 10 15 24 39 63 100 0 in your "conf" file (I don't know the purpose of the trailing Zero). See if it helps any.

The numbers are generated by ( N - 1 ) = N / 1.6 .... starting with N = 100 and working down. This gives a roughly constant 1.6 ratio of increase between successive integers, unlike the pop culture squared numbers everybody and Oleg uses which quickly forces numbers to very high values as is the nature of the square numbers 4 9 16 25 etc... which gives very high values of N very quickly. Bad news for handling.

I think I got this right now lol..

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p1ngu666
07-23-2004, 01:51 PM
the il2 first series is appaling for rudder, u swing around tons, and u dont really move much in effect cos u rock back and forth.

i dont find 190 bad, but i fly it a fair ammount, but i fly all planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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WWMaxGunz
07-23-2004, 01:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
You know Neal we might not be making this stuff up every time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Don't you think that there is any merit to my roll rate point?

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Lots of merit. I have to cut roll axis sensitivity down to fly the 190's!
Consider my pitch sliders are all 100's but roll... a straight line low to high!

Roll is the best strength of the 190 but you have to roll it right not to make
barrel rolls, same as any other. Oleg has pointed out from tracks sent that a
lot of people don't know how to do a clean roll, and that was about the P-47.

I haven't tried the 190 in 2.04 yet. I don't get much flying time. Has it
changed much since 2.01? I had no trouble turning, rolling, or shooting (except
needing to invert the plane to get lead for deflection which roll did not spoil
my aim) with the 190 using 2.01.

When I see people posting that the slightest turn with the 190 causes, well the
**** I read about bleed and stall, etc, --- it makes me wonder wtf is up? Are we
running the same sim, does that person fly near right or is he just full of it and
on an agenda? Perhaps a double reason?

Not you, you don't that drivel so now I need to take at least one 190 for a look and
make a track to post, perhaps. What 190(s) would you most reccomend? I will also
try reversing the rolls to see how quick I stall out, I do remember that being a
problem in other sims till I learned to fly different and still in some RB2/3D planes
it was never a good idea. IIRC, it depends on pitch and just how you do it with just
yanking the stick arcadelike being the wrong way. Again Faustnik, this is NOT you!


Neal

This Mortal Coil
07-23-2004, 02:19 PM
Just get a CH Fighterstick USB and all your oversensitivity problems are gone.

faustnik
07-23-2004, 02:27 PM
Neal,

The 190s have not changed much in 2.04. I think the A8/A9 has a different feel but, maybe its just me. Something is slightly different as far as stability, but, it is very hard to say exactly what after only 2 days since the patch. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

My absolute favorite is the Fw190A6! Love that plane. It is very smooth if you don't push it, can E-fight very well if you are really careful, and has four Mg 151s for accurate shooting. Climb is best on manual prop pitch with careful radiator adjustments. My favorite oponent is the Spit IXc or Spit IXe.

As far as stalls, I don't push the 190 until stall, turning is not my thing, so I'm not the best judge there.

I look forward to hearing your opinion.

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OldMan____
07-23-2004, 02:46 PM
I think yoou are wrong. I feel a difference in 190 now. They seem to have receive quite same work made on P47.. but in smaller scale. It responds better, less prone to snap and as consequence of theses two.. conserves a little bit more energy in harder maneuvers.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

faustnik
07-23-2004, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
I think yoou are wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg tells me the same thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Aaron_GT
07-23-2004, 04:35 PM
" This gives a roughly constant 1.6 ratio of increase between successive integers,"

hmmm - golden ratio... you could try a scaled fibonacci series.

WWMaxGunz
07-23-2004, 05:16 PM
No Aaron, linear pitch for me!
But if I were to go the increasing response route, at least an even increase ala parabolic.
Hmmm, at a guess, a straight line of sliders should do that and only if the stick works true,
else there should be some bumps in places.

Sticks that use pots (potentiometers) without thermal compensating circuitry will act
different at different temperatures. No lie, semiconductors vary conduction with temperature
which even current flow in them creates so it's best to warm the stuff up before serious use.
It's why I used to like my old digital-optical stick that no longer worked on the new hardware
so I passed it on. Someday though...

With a few more parts and connections you can have thermal compensation. In a finished
product just multiply the parts cost by 40 to 100 and tack that onto the price by the time
the manufacturing and then distribution, marketing and retail pipelines have jacked it up,
which is why I doubt we'll see it until those circuits are sold as a chip, even then there are better/easier/cheaper solutions like using mouse circuits.


Neal

F16_Filur
07-24-2004, 02:31 AM
Robban, one remedy for the nose swinging up and down too much when aiming I found to be applying rudder in one direction and aileron in the other.

You´ll feel how much you need to use, and it kinda "locks" the nose, making it much easier to finetune its direction with the stick/pitch. If you need more movement just release the rudder/ailereon a bit.

Applying rudder always seems to stabilize the aircraft in pitch, and if its possible to make the aim with rudder alone, that should be the first.

WWMaxGunz
07-24-2004, 06:36 AM
A6, more bouncy than P-51 which is not a total breeze but still more stable, same as some
other planes. Roll is incredible but once I jammed the sliders down to a 4 to 40 line, 4
for the first one then add 4 each, I was able to control the plane. Perhaps an increasing
curve would be controllable and give more roll at large side stick but I found what I did
to be all I wanted.

I should also mention that I toned pitch from all 100's to all 91, 92, 93,... 100 and that
helped some but IMHO maybe all 90's or even 81, 82, 83,... 90 might well help aim more.

If I make sure I am pulling up or down, the nose is more pitch-stable. Coming onto target
with me in a rising curve with small rudder was best if the target was not moving straight.
It also gave me better angle into the fuse, wing and tail. The more gentle the turn into
shooting, the better or should I say the more even the better.

If anything, the high responsiveness of this plane makes shooting difficult. Twitch a
control that is not sensitivity-damped and you get a load of movement. Even with a LOT
of Filter I had to be careful but when I was, 500m shots with 350m converge was possible
but my aim and timing need practice work.

Turns were no problem unless I wanted too much which is easy once below 350kph. Still
possible to turn okay but not against turnfight type planes at turnfight type speeds.
The plane buffets in stall when too much turn is asked. Before that, wingtip streamers
and wind rushing noise happen as well as accelerated speed loss. Letting up on the
stick some gets some speed back and the plane turns faster. Drop the nose at the same
time just a bit and even better results. Turning the right way with good speed, I was
able to grey out without losing speed badly. I don't know why some people think that
the FW's turn badly unless they try lowspeed turns against turnfight planes and then
they if they don't learn not to, they deserve dweeb of the month badges. Turnfighters
in general don't turn so well at higher speeds, they turn just not so great compared
any more. That is in general only, not all cases.

I did turns where I rolled opposite and turned the other way. I did not have trouble
except where I turned too hard. Never once stalled or spun doing that. Only spun once
while maneuvering onto a target, got greedy and didn't watch my speed and engine rpm's.
It was a snap that put me upside down quickly, then nose down and a half roll before I
let up on the stick and dropped power 1/2 to about 35.

Engine management takes more work. I keep the engine speed between 2200 and 2500 mostly
with power as needed. For cruise, 60% power at about 50% pitch got me 440kph at over
2km alt, closer to 3km. That's pretty respectable. It took more power and 2500 rpm's
to get to 380kph where I started throttling back and reducing pitch to get there. 440kph
is good cruise. Radiator was either 6 or full open, I forget. I ran it up no higher than
98% power and 2800rpm's but not for terribly long with the rad at default. Speed was not
all that great though, but not bad. 440-470kph IAS at 5000m isn't shabby. Cutting pitch
actually helped with power at 90%. Once speed is up, down on power and pitch down to get
rpm's under 2500 did not get slower flight while it did help cool the engine some.

There are the cars made for mass consumption. You put it in drive and push the pedal and
you go. Floor it and it will give until the engine governor (electronics nowadays) limits
the output. There are "sports models" that have more power and you can push them into red
but it's not immediately or very quickly disaster for the engine, just a bad idea to do it
often or for long.
There are actual performance sportscars. You have manual transmission only. You have a
lot of engine control and some guages to keep track of. Steering is better. You can
blow the engine or lunch the trannie easily. You can also do 100kph or better in 2nd
gear just warming the thing up. Red line on those is a more serious matter but you can
still exceed it. The engines tend to be more powerful but not always.
There are cars between the two but they tend to be closer to the mass consumption types.
A good rally car for instance or a light sportscar with stick and tach but not the full
control or the precise touch shift handling needed.

Which type is your plane like? How to compare it with another of different philosophy?
CEM for 109's and 190A's is very demanding in manual control but you get the most by far
that way. Great for pursuit, run, cruise, non-dogfighting. When things get crowded
and hairy so you can't watch or listen to the engine, put the thing in auto. It won't
blow or overheat on you. You should have the speed already, you just use throttle for
the little while you need. if the dogfight takes long time then you screwed up already.

People demanded the rollrate. They showed documents and got it. Be sure that in the
cockpit the pilot had much better feel of the stick and gravity, better control too
than we do. People demanded more elevator. They showed documents and got it. So it
is harder to control without adjusting settings. Live with it. It is capabilities
that you can limit how much you use easily. If you have trouble then do so.

Adverse yaw? I dunno. I ran neutral pitch. Doesn't seem so bad to me. I dunno.

Worst thing to me is the same it ALWAYS was for all FW's. The view from the pit is
abysmal. Blocked badly and no way to look past and real pilots could do easily.
And then there's the gunsight view... which will never change, ever. Perhaps that
alone is why I prefer the 109's. Yes, that is it in a nutshell. Love the FW guns,
hate the view.


Neal

faustnik
07-24-2004, 04:19 PM
Nice review Neal. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On the subject of the view, it becomes a non-issue after you fly the 190 a while. The gunsight view really teaches you to time deflection shots against targets that are not visible.

Turn, for me at least, is irrelevent. The only concerns and questions that I have for the 190 are acceleration, dive rate and climb rate (yes, I realize the consistant questions get annoying but, I'm still not convinced. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

I will test you stick adjustment recommendations, thanks Neal.

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jurinko
07-24-2004, 04:57 PM
hmm as i remember Fw 190 was known for its excellent combination of all three axis controls.. here, you push a bit and stall or bleed all E off, you yaw and plane whoops there and back, and you roll and can´t control it. something still weird there. still i love 190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oh and yes, its forward view which said to be better that in 109, Spitfire or P-51 is the worst one in FB.

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WWMaxGunz
07-24-2004, 05:14 PM
With the stick sensitivity tool we can tone down and balance our controls.
Only thing we can't do is get more than 100%!
Still, changing the sliders is a better thing than requesting changing the plane!

Remember to spend time with using Filter! Crank it up, move the stick and see what it
does in the test box on the left side of the sliders screen. I like it! It's... gravy.

I know I would be most happy to be able to save stick settings per plane in the sim.
Barring that, perhaps a program similar to EAW Stab or RB3D Campaign Manager to switch
the desired saved config files in (requires knowing what you will be flying) would be
the next best thing. No biggie for me, I can handle batch files and dos command line.

On forward views I seem to remember at least a few accounts from pilots in different
planes and really, in WWI and WWII that spoke of waiting until the target disappeared
below the nose before firing and getting the kill. What I can't remember is all the
conditions like how close, what speed and speed difference and just which planes. I
get the feeling though that those were not long range shootings.


Neal