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View Full Version : So, what's the state of our Heavy Metal Hero (Highlander)



Herbstlicht
09-22-2017, 05:24 PM
Well, despite the fact that I love the still rather fresh Air Guitar Emote of the Highlander, I wonder how people see him those days.
I guess at the medium skill level and in Dominion, he still is a force to be reckoned with. But in duels, specially higher level tournament play, I deem he has fallen into pretty much a victims role.
I won't be going into balance stuff and details because we already had some very nice threads discussing this guy. I am more interested in like the "public opinion" of one of my personal favorite characters in the game. I mean I even think about switching to Vikings next Season simply due to the awesomeness of the Highlander, despite regularly feeling the need to bite my non-existant keyboard due to his slowness and vulnerability against Assassins and able Shugoki Turtles.

CheekyKemosabe
09-23-2017, 02:43 AM
He's pretty good, especially in dominion. Elmination, meh. I don't trust myself with him enough to take him into tournaments. Right now that celtic curse is still getting the **** spammed out of it so people just expect it to happen right off the bat. Has a good set of mix up abilities and turtle potential is above average considering he can counter attack in every direction.

looks badass, plays well and I never get tired of him. Very fun to play as.

Tyrjo
09-23-2017, 02:02 PM
I like to play him. I'm just average though, but he can be good in the right hands. His low health pool means you can't make any mistakes.

"CC cancel" works on everyone except experienced players. His mixups and feints are on the slow side and if your opponent pressures you better be good defensively.

Tundra 793
09-24-2017, 04:45 PM
I enjoy playing him, but in my opinion he's just average, at best.

Hilariously weak, almost crippled against a good, even decent Shugoki 1v1.

Against a good team in 4v4 I think he's downright useless. He can hold his own in almost any 1v1 situation, maybe even 1v2. But against ganks, or just a good team up, he's worthless.
He doesn't have the health to trade, and he has no attacks he can deploy fast enough to fend off attackers. He has no defensive abilities he can use fast enough to deter counter attacks. You can only block, dodge and parry until Revenge pops, but even then you're still to slow to fend of multiple attackers. OF stance is completely out of the question.
Regular defensive attacks are also too slow and/or complete parry bait.

Overall, he's just too damn slow. Not enough health, or even damage to do any meaningful trades most of the time. He's a turtle basically, just without any useful turtle mechanics or traits.

Compared to the Gladiator, who is just a full on powerhouse, I'm starting to think someone in the developers office, not necessarily Roman, but someone, seriously loves Roman stereotype fighters. Both Cent and Glad were released, and then immediately started dominating the field. Highlander and Shinobi are both objectively weaker characters.
Someone in the character design department has watched Gladiator too many times.

The_B0G_
09-24-2017, 07:30 PM
In my opinion hes too slow, no dodge attack and a slow dodge to begin with. It could be just me but against light spammy assassins he's pretty useless.

My kensei wrecks him and he's arguably the one of the weakest heroes in game. The only time I have trouble with HL is when he turtles or there are two of them.

He definitely needs a buff before I use him again. I feel helpless even against just decent assassins. I used LB pre buff and even he didn't feel as weak as HL is now. Maybe with top tier gear he isn't bad.

felor_metlock
09-25-2017, 05:35 PM
Yup Highlander needs a few bugs fixing such as when to press buttons. Something needs to be changed so using Offensive mode is more viable (any suggestions?).

Tundra 793
09-25-2017, 05:53 PM
Yup Highlander needs a few bugs fixing such as when to press buttons. Something needs to be changed so using Offensive mode is more viable (any suggestions?).

Reduce the stamina cost on Offensive lights. Honestly considering Offensive doesn't offer a whole hell of a lot damage wise, make most of the attacks cost less stamina. You're meant to feint half the moves anyway.

FredEx919
09-25-2017, 07:39 PM
Glad to hear you all are still liking Highlander. We have more work to do and hopefully we'll be able to get some of the requested balancing in soon. We still have quite a few characters to get to.

kweassa1
09-26-2017, 08:44 AM
...Well, despite the fact that I love the still rather fresh Air Guitar Emote of the Highlander, I wonder how people see him those days.
I guess at the medium skill level and in Dominion, he still is a force to be reckoned with. But in duels, specially higher level tournament play, I deem he has fallen into pretty much a victims role.
I won't be going into balance stuff and details because we already had some very nice threads discussing this guy. I am more interested in like the "public opinion" of one of my personal favorite characters in the game. I mean I even think about switching to Vikings next Season simply due to the awesomeness of the Highlander, despite regularly feeling the need to bite my non-existant keyboard due to his slowness and vulnerability against Assassins and able Shugoki Turtles. ...


https://youtu.be/LgXKqHfUpMA


https://youtu.be/rx6FDF_wsDQ


https://youtu.be/HDBpcPdm42o


https://youtu.be/ogfl6tSzqho


https://youtu.be/zU2nR-W3c68


https://youtu.be/e4HGWLeJEg0


Seems to be doing fine in the above-average circles, thank you.

kweassa1
09-26-2017, 08:45 AM
https://youtu.be/0sgxN_ivT7E

...and the latest, vid7 from my friend CHO.

PDXGorechild
09-26-2017, 09:02 AM
That's an interesting way to play highlander. Looks like his feint game can be pretty strong. I can play similar to this on Berserker too, but that doesn't mean a class isn't in need of some love just because some skillful players can pull off wins using mentally exhausting and difficult to pull off tactics.

I'm a bit disappointed with the Highlander tbh. He was the only class I was interested in other than maining Zerk, and I swore I was going to dedicate half of my time to playing him before S3 hit. But when he came out he was just a bit... meh. He's not awful by any means, hits like a truck and can at least hold his own against the majority of classes, but it feels like there's something missing. Didn't like any of the original cast either, Shinobi is fun but pathetic, I'll never play Cent due to principles, and the Gladiator runs around with a pokey stick... I'd honestly be playing him if it wasn't for that fact. So here I am maining the same old neglected class because it's the only one that feels right.

Overall I think Highlander needs a bit of a buff, but nothing too over the top.

Dude_of_Valor
09-26-2017, 09:53 AM
Well, despite the fact that I love the still rather fresh Air Guitar Emote of the Highlander, I wonder how people see him those days.
I guess at the medium skill level and in Dominion, he still is a force to be reckoned with. But in duels, specially higher level tournament play, I deem he has fallen into pretty much a victims role.
I won't be going into balance stuff and details because we already had some very nice threads discussing this guy. I am more interested in like the "public opinion" of one of my personal favorite characters in the game. I mean I even think about switching to Vikings next Season simply due to the awesomeness of the Highlander, despite regularly feeling the need to bite my non-existant keyboard due to his slowness and vulnerability against Assassins and able Shugoki Turtles.

In duels I find that if I play well usual it is a win for me. Most people seem to use the same move (top heavy into spin heavy) which is easy to dodge, then they follow up with another attack which you dodge then punish them.

If he forgoes his blocking stance, then landing a sweet heavy attack usually does the trick.

However against people who are really good with him, then it become much harder and they throw out moves I rarely see and can struggle with.

Overall I would say he is like a conqueror. Alright in capable hand, but god like when someone is a pro with him (which is the true for any of the classes).

As for the videos, opponents seemed keen to be so up close and personal. What ever happened to keeping distance?

Tundra 793
09-26-2017, 10:40 AM
Seems to be doing fine in the above-average circles, thank you.

Why start off being condescending?
While I appreciate the effort your friend has gone to making all these videos, It's anecdotal and cherry picked evidence of the Highlanders viability at whatever skill level this CHO guy is at. He's only showing us when his playstyle works, which proves nothing. And honestly, in many of the examples shown, the people he's fighting just don't appear to be the best fighters with their class.

The videos just shows 1 guy who can play the Highlander very well against people who seem to have skill levels across the whole spectrum. But neither them, nor you, have contributed to this discussion.

Just because CHO can kill people with him, doesn't mean the class couldn't use some tweaks and balancing.

The_B0G_
09-26-2017, 01:51 PM
Why start off being condescending?
While I appreciate the effort your friend has gone to making all these videos, It's anecdotal and cherry picked evidence of the Highlanders viability at whatever skill level this CHO guy is at. He's only showing us when his playstyle works, which proves nothing. And honestly, in many of the examples shown, the people he's fighting just don't appear to be the best fighters with their class.

The videos just shows 1 guy who can play the Highlander very well against people who seem to have skill levels across the whole spectrum. But neither them, nor you, have contributed to this discussion.

Just because CHO can kill people with him, doesn't mean the class couldn't use some tweaks and balancing.

Kweassa isn't even in the the average circle lol last time I looked his KDA was .67, don't take his full of himself, elitest attitude too personally. Some people need to talk down to everyone to feel special.

Xaviloga
09-26-2017, 05:56 PM
Kweassa isn't even in the the average circle lol last time I looked his KDA was .67, don't take his full of himself, elitest attitude too personally. Some people need to talk down to everyone to feel special.

I share my account with my sons, 13 & 11 (yep, dunno if the most educative activity but we spend time toghether at least). We play together by turns. My KD should be awful. Cant i give my opinion either?.

Tundra 793
09-26-2017, 06:04 PM
My KD should be awful. Cant i give my opinion either?.

Of course you can.

BoG's issue with Kweassa is how he stated his opinion, and my issue is that he posted videos of someone else playing the Highlander.

kweassa1
09-28-2017, 08:25 AM
Of course you can.

BoG's issue with Kweassa is how he stated his opinion, and my issue is that he posted videos of someone else playing the Highlander.

People complain all the time how HL's trash, so I gregariously provide examples of some people playing them well enough to be not "trashy".

So what's the issue again? ....that I make people arguing "HL's are trash and need massive buffs" look bad and scrubby, by providing a counter-evidence of someone using them and getting reasonably well results with the class?

kweassa1
09-28-2017, 08:27 AM
Here's #8 btw.


https://youtu.be/RrvXa6sZh-A

Dunno about you people, but if I had problems with using HL, I'd first look at the vids to learn as much as I can, practice it myself to see how it works out, and then proceed to comment.


(ps) the aggressive use of OF to open up and bait out attacks is something I discussed with him, btw. One of the problems with HL is his lights are 600ms and heavies at 1,000ms... both visually telegraphed quite easily. So the brainstorming I had was about using OF more aggressively. Most beginner level HL players only go into OF after certain attack sequences.

But theoretically, showing the opponent that you're in OF would prompt a response.. whether it be an attack to snap you out of OF, dodges to evade MA/UBs from OF, or parries against UBs from OF... the opponent can't just block it, he must respond to it in someway.. and fortunately HL's OF has counters that work against each of the situations.

- opponent attacks can be intercepted with the OF-light, one of the game's fastest attack (500ms top, 400ms side)
- opponent dodges can be caught with cancel-moves, such as kick-cancel-cabtoss or heavy-cancel-kick
- opponent parries can be baited and countered with UB heavy feint into either your own parry or DF light CCountering.


So provided you got the mindgames to your advantage to force reaction, it can work.... and of course, my friend being a much superior player than me, he understood what the theory was, and took enough time to practice it and actually make it work in real life -- as seen in the vids.

After all, that's what usually PvP gamers do. Study, theorycraft, practice, and realize -- before whining. :rolleyes:

The old-school PvP gamers would do everything they possibly can, spend hours and hours into practice to make it really possible -- and if it fails, only then will they complain about it. It's an old-fashioned trait which this forum is sorely lacking with the younger, impatient folks these days, I'm afraid.


(ps2) both CHO and myself are at the opinion that he;s definitely not at the "top tournament" levels of gameplay in the long run. But he's can do reasonably well as a solid middle-tier, but unfortunately requires very high level of practice and experience into the class, and it would suit players that make better use of more articulate mind-games, rather than people used to class types that force a "reflex-challenge" tactics or "forced-50/50" tactics.

It's definitely not suited for beginner level players.

S0Mi_xD
09-28-2017, 10:09 AM
kweassa1, you know what bugs me the most when people talk about the "reactable, predictable or guessing"
It's every move in the current game is pretty much reachable, the only real 50/50 was wardens old shoulder bash into GB, because the warden had the ability to soft feint into GB so late, that the enemy wasn't able of say if it is a non-charged SB or a cancel into GB.

But currently everything is react-able.

Predictability and guessing:
Predicting is nothing different from guessing, but people say, if you need to guess it makes the game unfair - in terms of a 50/50 like old SB, that's right.
But Guessing or better say, predicting the next move of your enemy is a skill, that is needed in this kind of games.

The single moves in them selfs need to be react-able, but the mix-ups need to be the mind game.
And that's a point where For Honor lacks in, like some heroes, who only have 2 chains without much mix up potential (warlord, valkyrie, Shugoki)

Another point is, that many people play in a way to predictable manner.
People cry about heavy attacks are to easy to parry - my answer is don't play so predictable - use feints, use different play styles and mix them up mid-fight (I know that is a strategy advanced players use - but still everybody can learn it and it isn't that hard to switch from aggressive gameplay to defensive gameplay to light spam gameplay etc.

And as soon they set parry in the right place (I hope it gives no free dmg - or at least every hero gets a hero specific parry counter similar to Warlord), and also blocking and dodging being fixed.

It is possible to do all this with the current mechanics, but the problem I see is, that we have not enough mechanical depth in the game and most current mechanics pressure Stamina.

I somehow believe that an additional mechanic could round off the games mechanics.
Just in case you are interested and you didn't saw it, this is my idea on it - maybe something similar.
(would like to read your feedback on it :) )

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1745375-Do-we-need-a-real-Guard-Break

ChampionRuby50g
09-28-2017, 11:18 AM
People complain all the time how HL's trash, so I gregariously provide examples of some people playing them well enough to be not "trashy".

So what's the issue again? ....that I make people arguing "HL's are trash and need massive buffs" look bad and scrubby, by providing a counter-evidence of someone using them and getting reasonably well results with the class?

Where did anyone in this thread say "HL's are trash and need massive buffs" All I can see is people mentioning he needs some tweaks and a regular buff. For someone who likes to be very specific, especially when talking down to other people this seems awfully hypocritical.

I think that most people would agree that Kensei is one of the weaker hero's in the game, and has been in need of buffs for a long time. But I've seen some Kensei's whose feint game is 10/10, and they have played very well in Brawls and duels, even 4v4s. So, according to your logic, Kensei is fine as it is and everyone else who loses to him is "bad and scrubby". Why are you suggesting that because one player can do well with this hero that they are not trashy? Because that's exactly how it's coming across when you state "provide examples of some people playing them well enough to be not trashy"