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View Full Version : Remove Extra Dmg Taken On Shugoki.



TSCDescon
09-22-2017, 05:06 PM
Hard to Kill and Juggernaut Feats are useless on this guy. How much damage reduction do I get? Is there a percentage? The extra damage I take without the stance just negates these feats. I want to come back to this guy, but he just feels too weak for a "Tank".

Lyskir
09-22-2017, 05:24 PM
agree

he is not in a good spot right now, i barly see him in 1v1 or even 4v4

all he can do is light+headbutt, its good tho but its all he is really good at

removal of the +dmg taken when the hyper armor is down would make him a lot better in trading dmg, its at least something

ShonM93
09-22-2017, 05:52 PM
Considering shugo's current state, it would be much better if, when the hyperarmor is up he gets reduced dmg and when it's down he gets normal dmg.

TSCDescon
09-22-2017, 07:15 PM
Considering shugo's current state, it would be much better if, when the hyperarmor is up he gets reduced dmg and when it's down he gets normal dmg.

I like that idea. It would make Hard to Kill/Juggernaut Feat more useful, despite the very short duration Juggernaut has. But, it feels like those feats don't stack.

TSCDescon
09-22-2017, 07:17 PM
agree

he is not in a good spot right now, i barly see him in 1v1 or even 4v4

all he can do is light+headbutt, its good tho but its all he is really good at

removal of the +dmg taken when the hyper armor is down would make him a lot better in trading dmg, its at least something

He's a dead character, honestly.

UbiJurassic
09-23-2017, 12:45 AM
There's a number of players that believe that Shugoki is on the weaker side of things right now. He's still very good in the hands of certain players, but the general sentiment is that he has been lacking since his early nerfs to his charge. We've definitely taken note of the player feedback on him and have gotten it over to the team for future balance consideration.

Charmzzz
09-23-2017, 10:59 AM
Shugo is broken when the player is good. Boring playstyle for sure, but effective as hell. Lights into Headbutt or GB into wall stagger into demon embrace. You dont need anything else to win Duels. So if you buff his HP, take something else away, else he will be god tier in every tournament.

ChampionRuby50g
09-23-2017, 12:20 PM
Shugo is broken when the player is good. Boring playstyle for sure, but effective as hell. Lights into Headbutt or GB into wall stagger into demon embrace. You dont need anything else to win Duels. So if you buff his HP, take something else away, else he will be god tier in every tournament.

I gotta agree with you on that one. I Know some very dangerous shugokis who can deal serious damage, especially due to UI stance. But as you said, boring play style. Wait for an attack and get a free GB because your fat is a more effective defence than LBs full plate mail.

Netcode_err_404
09-23-2017, 12:57 PM
No.

Shugoki is powerfull enough as he is.

All he needs is the knock down on his oni charge vs oos opponents.


Boring playstyle ? HAve you ever tried

- pk
- orochi
-Warden
-Conq
- Shove block LB


Well, half of the roster.to be honest.

Charmzzz
09-23-2017, 01:44 PM
PK and Orochi is only boring if you dont use deflect, soft feints and feints. And you have to use those to win tournaments higher than gold for sure. Warden, well, feints and SB mindgames, not much else. Conq and LB only have those 2 good moves, have to agree here. But Shugo is on a different level due to his wall stagger demon embrace which negates every damage you did to him before... A move completely for a turtle playstyle...

SenBotsu893
09-23-2017, 03:42 PM
yes the increased damage taken is horrible for shugoki. he has virtually just the hp pool of an assasin to fight with but is slow in movement and attacks.

demon embrace got a tracking nerf as well because it only lands if used after a wall splat. if used in any other situation it will miss and inflicting a WHOOPING 60 damage on shugoki himself + leaving him completly open. the risk is way to high for the reward.

TSCDescon
09-23-2017, 05:53 PM
Shugo is broken when the player is good. Boring playstyle for sure, but effective as hell. Lights into Headbutt or GB into wall stagger into demon embrace. You dont need anything else to win Duels. So if you buff his HP, take something else away, else he will be god tier in every tournament.

And a good turtle will destroy a Shugoki.

Plus, my post never mention anything about how weak/strong Shugoki is in duels or his playstyle is boring.

My post is mainly about the extra damage he takes when his stance is gone and the Hard to Kill/Juggernaut feat for him is useless because of it.

TSCDescon
09-23-2017, 06:01 PM
No.

Shugoki is powerfull enough as he is.

Yeah, hes powerful because of his charged heavy and demon's embrace one shot, and weak because of his Assassin health pool when UI stance is down.

TSCDescon
09-23-2017, 06:16 PM
Jeez, seriously people.

The main issue here is Shugoki take extra damage when his stance is gone and it makes the Hard to Kill/Juggernaut feat useless. (4v4)

I don't care about not being able to knock down OOS opponent with Oni Charge, its not gonna happen. I want to be able to survive long enough for my teammates to come and help defend points , or buy enough time for them to capture the others. But, I can't do that because of the extra damage I take. I get revenge, yeah, but what good is revenge mode when you're opponent backs off and wait for your revenge mode to ware off?

Stop bringing up 1v1. That mode is a staring contest.

Saying Shugoki is god tier in tournament is very ignorant. This isn't pre-nerf 1.06 Shugoki anymore.

Netcode_err_404
09-23-2017, 06:52 PM
Yeah, hes powerful because of his charged heavy and demon's embrace one shot, and weak because of his Assassin health pool when UI stance is down.



HAve you ever landed a charged heavy vs a non oos knock3ed down opponent ? I didn't. because it gets parried 99% of the times, and i will tell you more. One single back dodge will avoid both the attack or the feint.


And oneshot is not even a problem, considering how risky is. Unless you don't go in the oneshot mode on purpose, But even if you do it on purpose the chance that you are gonna die are above max


The perfect buff would be knock down with oni charge vs oos people. Considering you cannot punish in any way a fast dodge class.

TSCDescon
09-23-2017, 08:29 PM
HAve you ever landed a charged heavy vs a non oos knock3ed down opponent ? I didn't. because it gets parried 99% of the times, and i will tell you more. One single back dodge will avoid both the attack or the feint.


And oneshot is not even a problem, considering how risky is. Unless you don't go in the oneshot mode on purpose, But even if you do it on purpose the chance that you are gonna die are above max


The perfect buff would be knock down with oni charge vs oos people. Considering you cannot punish in any way a fast dodge class.

I like to have the knock down on OOS opponent, but he is still weak. He goes down faster than Lawbringer and the other heavies. For Honor seems to focus more on 4v4 than 1v1.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 01:14 AM
ofc, lb does not have unlimited hyper armor.


And as soon as they finally decide to remove the lights after block shove, LB will return to the low tier they belong.

The_B0G_
09-24-2017, 01:56 AM
This wouldn't fix Shugoki, it would just make fights against him even more drawn out and boring. Light, headbutt, light, headbutt, I have no idea how anyone can even get any enjoyment out of playing him, such a one dimensional fighter.

Like Conq, he needs a complete rework. He can't be fixed with tweaks.

SenBotsu893
09-24-2017, 02:56 PM
ofc, lb does not have unlimited hyper armor.


And as soon as they finally decide to remove the lights after block shove, LB will return to the low tier they belong.

the point OP made is still that shugoki takes way more damage than enyone else. 25% extra damage taken is just way to insane.

mrmistark
09-24-2017, 03:25 PM
Another problem WITH the extra damage is the fact that his recooperation of HA seems to be TOTALLY random sometimes. Sometimes it takes like 2 seconds, sometimes it takes him 2 minutes (exaggerated of course but man it feels like it). I can't reliably judge how soon or how late I'll have to wait. There is a typical window that usually is when he gets it back, but like I said, it feels unreliable.


For those of you saying demons embrace only works against walls, use it with HA when they are throwing out a heavy. Regardless of if they feint or not, unless it's against certain assassins there won't be enough recovery frames to dodge. Half these times I do it with just enough health to survive and let the heavy land putting me into critical while the HA pushes me through. Takes a lot of reading, but I've landed demons this way more than the wall splat demons embrace.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 04:16 PM
the point OP made is still that shugoki takes way more damage than enyone else. 25% extra damage taken is just way to insane.

tHE POINT op MADE, IS STUPID. Shugoki without extra damage would be unstoppable.

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 05:09 PM
the point OP made is still that shugoki takes way more damage than enyone else. 25% extra damage taken is just way to insane.

On the flip side no one else can get any health back without use of an execution,boost or feat. You have to be patient and range your enemy to make best use of the trade off potential with the hyper armour but you get a lot for the cost of a little extra damage when you lose it.

SenBotsu893
09-24-2017, 06:05 PM
tHE POINT op MADE, IS STUPID. Shugoki without extra damage would be unstoppable.

its not a stupid point from the op. having an innate handycap is stupid.

why would he be unstoppable? because he actually had more hp to fight with? greetings from Lawbringers 150 hp. greetings form Raiders/Warlords 140 HP.
they have a high HP pool as well but dont take any extra damage.

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 06:12 PM
its not a stupid point from the op. having an innate handycap is stupid.

why would he be unstoppable? because he actually had more hp to fight with? greetings from Lawbringers 150 hp. greetings form Raiders/Warlords 140 HP.
they have a high HP pool as well but dont take any extra damage.

The ones you mentioned (and I use none of them to be clear) also can't get health back in duel and they can't one hit kill someone when they are in critical health.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 06:33 PM
its not a stupid point from the op. having an innate handycap is stupid.

why would he be unstoppable? because he actually had more hp to fight with? greetings from Lawbringers 150 hp. greetings form Raiders/Warlords 140 HP.
they have a high HP pool as well but dont take any extra damage.


Because they don't have unlimited hyper armor. Genius.

mrmistark
09-24-2017, 06:46 PM
To be fair neither does shugoki. He doesn't start the match with it, and one gb or a light spam completely negates his HA. Not making a point for either side other than that is just false. It has the potential after you get it to be unlimited if you play super turtle like, but it's like saying an unblockable will always land. Just because something has a high potential doesn't mean it makes it an unlimited optimal outcome every time.

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 10:16 PM
To be fair neither does shugoki. He doesn't start the match with it, and one gb or a light spam completely negates his HA. Not making a point for either side other than that is just false. It has the potential after you get it to be unlimited if you play super turtle like, but it's like saying an unblockable will always land. Just because something has a high potential doesn't mean it makes it an unlimited optimal outcome every time.

But what the shugoki does have is the means to hit his most powerful attack through another if only once at a time and an ability no one else has, the ability to have health regen in a duel. If the devs leave the health regen and the one shot kill in but get rid of the extra damage on losing the armour that will be unbalancing.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 10:21 PM
But what the shugoki does have is the means to hit his most powerful attack through another if only once at a time and an ability no one else has, the ability to have health regen in a duel. If the devs leave the health regen and the one shot kill in but get rid of the extra damage on losing the armour that will be unbalancing.

Game is about 4v4 and in 4v4 embrace is super fine. Thera are a lot of more cancerous things that are allowed.

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 10:31 PM
Game is about 4v4 and in 4v4 embrace is super fine. Thera are a lot of more cancerous things that are allowed.

And all of the current 4v4 modes have the means for everyone to have health regen. All I am saying is that if the aim is to balance both 1v1 and 4v4 then the health regen and the extra damage on losing armour are very much linked balance-wise.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 10:34 PM
And all of the current 4v4 modes have the means for everyone to have health regen. All I am saying is that if the aim is to balance both 1v1 and 4v4 then the health regen and the extra damage on losing armour are very much linked balance-wise.


On 4v4 you cannot sit in the corner blocking all for 5 minutes. So, if you get embraced, your fault.


Oneshot is ultra riski, and its something that i like.Its not as broken as 80+ confirmed damage from a stunlocking combo. You need to be almost dead, super riski = super rewarding.

That exactly what most chars on FH are NOT ABOUT:

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 10:45 PM
On 4v4 you cannot sit in the corner blocking all for 5 minutes. So, if you get embraced, your fault.


Oneshot is ultra riski, and its something that i like.Its not as broken as 80+ confirmed damage from a stunlocking combo. You need to be almost dead, super riski = super rewarding.

That exactly what most chars on FH are NOT ABOUT:

I'm not saying that the centurion is super balanced and needs nothing done to him and there are patch notes coming out next week which hopefully will address that some, I am also not saying that as it stands shugoki should lose the one shot or the health regen, but you can't say I want this bit that hinders me removed but oh that other bit there, keep that, I like that.

Netcode_err_404
09-24-2017, 10:55 PM
I'm not saying that the centurion is super balanced and needs nothing done to him and there are patch notes coming out next week which hopefully will address that some, I am also not saying that as it stands shugoki should lose the one shot or the health regen, but you can't say I want this bit that hinders me removed but oh that other bit there, keep that, I like that.

Why not ? People here want him to have 160 health with unlimited HA + no more extra dmg when HA is off.

I just think its BS.

The only buffs he needs is knock down on oni vs OOS characters, and the istant stamina regen after oni charge. As it is now, is worthless. Thats all.His biggest problem is the fact he is slow, and the crrent game mechanic kill slow classes. Hopefully if the game won't die before they put that god damn def patch, we will see whats more he needs.

CandleInTheDark
09-24-2017, 11:14 PM
Why not ? People here want him to have 160 health with unlimited HA + no more extra dmg when HA is off.

I just think its BS.

The only buffs he needs is knock down on oni vs OOS characters, and the istant stamina regen after oni charge. As it is now, is worthless. Thats all.His biggest problem is the fact he is slow, and the crrent game mechanic kill slow classes. Hopefully if the game won't die before they put that god damn def patch, we will see whats more he needs.

I am not quite certain how we are arguing and yet agree with each other lol.

I think for the most part as you say it is a case of wait for the meta changes, which hopefully come at the start ofor near the start of season 4 rather than late on and see what is needed then.

kweassa1
09-25-2017, 06:27 AM
The UI needs to be an optional/additional protection upon the Shug's base class spec, and the base class spec of the Shug needs to be equal to other classes as well. So at "default", if someone else is damaged 10, the Shug's also damaged 10. The way it stands, UI is currently not any kind of additional/optional protection to be utilized in combat -- it's an absolute pre-requisite that puts your defense on PAR with other classes.

Somebody just "taps" the Shug on the chest for a GB attempt, and that instantly puts the Shug's base spec INFERIOR to others by receiving 25% more damage... which effectively means Shug base HP is NOT 160. Somebody sneezes at the general direction of the Shug and it's lowered to effectively 120 HP.

Or, in other form of comparison, imagine that whenever someone hits you, or even touches you with a GB attempt, they always get a 25% damage buff... and every single opponent you meet has this ability except you. That's how problematic this is.

TSCDescon
09-25-2017, 04:11 PM
Why not ? People here want him to have 160 health with unlimited HA + no more extra dmg when HA is off.

I just think its BS.

The only buffs he needs is knock down on oni vs OOS characters, and the istant stamina regen after oni charge. As it is now, is worthless. Thats all.His biggest problem is the fact he is slow, and the crrent game mechanic kill slow classes. Hopefully if the game won't die before they put that god damn def patch, we will see whats more he needs.

It'll be unlimited if guard break just bounces off from a Shug and only a light/heavy attack breaks the HA.

He's suppose to have the highest HP in the game is he not? No, because of the 25% damage he takes without HA and everyone can get around the HA.

And its not BS. Taking more damage for losing HA is BS. Even Conq, the character people claimed to be the worst, is better than the Shug.

I'm not sure if Oni Charge will get any changes because if it does knock down OOS, you can spam it like pre-nerf 1.06 Rungoki. Even if they do change it, people will complain again and get nerf back. I don't see Def meta changes coming on the start of Season 4, probably after when all characters are out.

Netcode_err_404
09-25-2017, 04:26 PM
It'll be unlimited if guard break just bounces off from a Shug and only a light/heavy attack breaks the HA.

He's suppose to have the highest HP in the game is he not? No, because of the 25% damage he takes without HA and everyone can get around the HA.

And its not BS. Taking more damage for losing HA is BS. Even Conq, the character people claimed to be the worst, is better than the Shug.

I'm not sure if Oni Charge will get any changes because if it does knock down OOS, you can spam it like pre-nerf 1.06 Rungoki. Even if they do change it, people will complain again and get nerf back. I don't see Def meta changes coming on the start of Season 4, probably after when all characters are out.



Well, if you make GB not able to remove HA shugos will turtle even more.

Speaking about run, yes you can spam it, and ppl in OOS will knock down, i think its fair. OOS needs to be dangerous, as it is now, is not except vs very specific classes.

TSCDescon
09-25-2017, 05:58 PM
Well, if you make GB not able to remove HA shugos will turtle even more.

Speaking about run, yes you can spam it, and ppl in OOS will knock down, i think its fair. OOS needs to be dangerous, as it is now, is not except vs very specific classes.

Assassin heroes dodges too far during OOS and needs to be tone down. The stamina pause doesn't really do anything to them.

Netcode_err_404
09-25-2017, 06:58 PM
Assassin heroes dodges too far during OOS and needs to be tone down. The stamina pause doesn't really do anything to them.

Exactly what I have pointed down months ago during the previous PTR, and i got classified as troll for this very specific reason.

I'm glad that others members noticed that as well.

S0Mi_xD
09-26-2017, 03:41 AM
Exactly what I have pointed down months ago during the previous PTR, and i got classified as troll for this very specific reason.

I'm glad that others members noticed that as well.

The only thing that happened was, that we said to you, you should try to unlock and run after them - you only ignored this advice and cried more about how unfair assassin dodges in OOS are.

Netcode_err_404
09-26-2017, 08:32 AM
The only thing that happened was, that we said to you, you should try to unlock and run after them - you only ignored this advice and cried more about how unfair assassin dodges in OOS are.

Ok, you unlock with shugoki and do what ?

You unlock with a LB and do what ?

Unlock with a kensei and do what ?

Unlock with a nobushi and do what ?

Unlock with HL and do what ?

The only 3 classes that have an UB as running attacks are raiders, WL and conqs. The others can be blocked.


Assassins still out speed you.


Do you even play this game ?

kweassa1
09-26-2017, 08:35 AM
Ok, you unlock with shugoki and do what ?
You unlock with a LB and do what ?
Unlock with a kensei and do what ?
Unlock with a nobushi and do what ?
Unlock with HL and do what ?
The only 3 classes that have an UB as running attacks are raiders, WL and conqs. The others can be blocked.
Assassins still out speed you.
Do you even play this game ?

Unlock, approach, and fight.

DUH.

Charmzzz
09-26-2017, 01:53 PM
Ok, you unlock with shugoki and do what ?

You unlock with a LB and do what ?

Unlock with a kensei and do what ?

Unlock with a nobushi and do what ?

Unlock with HL and do what ?

The only 3 classes that have an UB as running attacks are raiders, WL and conqs. The others can be blocked.


Assassins still out speed you.


Do you even play this game ?

While that is kind of true, tell me if any Assassin Class (PK,Orochi, Berserker, Shinobi) can punish other people for being OOS? Guess what, no they can't! They have no UB (except Shinobi Kick which forces a Dodge, but cannot be feinted into a GB...) to force a parry / dodge from the opponent. So, tell me again, why should they be super punishable for being OOS while not having OOS punish themselves exactly. I'm just curious.

Netcode_err_404
09-26-2017, 03:08 PM
While that is kind of true, tell me if any Assassin Class (PK,Orochi, Berserker, Shinobi) can punish other people for being OOS? Guess what, no they can't! They have no UB (except Shinobi Kick which forces a Dodge, but cannot be feinted into a GB...) to force a parry / dodge from the opponent. So, tell me again, why should they be super punishable for being OOS while not having OOS punish themselves exactly. I'm just curious.



Speaking about shugo, an OOS pk can outspeed an unlock shugoki while running, only with dodges.


Now. To explain better your question i will say just, crap game design. I think it will cover up all the doubts you may have regarding this argument.

ThiccVsauce
07-18-2018, 11:21 PM
And where is this balance today, huh?

ChampionRuby50g
07-19-2018, 12:11 AM
Tactical nuke on this thread inbound! Itís over.

Archaelion
07-19-2018, 01:33 AM
He's still very good in the hands of certain players

Said no one ever. Shugoki is horrible in every player's hands. I'd love to see players of equal skill level play: shugo vs another class. What is he going to do? Light + headbutt? Didn't see that one coming. Sick mixup bruh, feint into light and headbutt. Whoa. While the other competitor breaks shugo's hyper armor with a failed gb. Let's be real devs. Shugo is a horrible class and NO player is very good at using him in an EQUAL skill match. Sorry, beating afk players doesn't count!

Edit: If someone is good at him does it mean there is ground for no changes? If that's the case, nobody would make changes on anyone because someone in the world is good at something. Also, to be good at hitting light and headbutt..there must be a few GODS in the world.

fortnitegam2018
07-19-2018, 06:08 AM
:)