PDA

View Full Version : P-51/la-7 blackouts



gates123
01-27-2004, 10:09 AM
Why when flying these two planes the recovery time from heavy g loads takes almost 7-10 seconds? I mean how long do you have to fly straight to get the blood flowing again? Why do these two planes stand out more then the rest? Why is there consistency with g load recovery in all the other planes. Is it the modeling? Can someone answer this for me please?

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

gates123
01-27-2004, 10:09 AM
Why when flying these two planes the recovery time from heavy g loads takes almost 7-10 seconds? I mean how long do you have to fly straight to get the blood flowing again? Why do these two planes stand out more then the rest? Why is there consistency with g load recovery in all the other planes. Is it the modeling? Can someone answer this for me please?

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Bremspropeller
01-27-2004, 11:53 AM
Oh, it's not just the Stang and the La that make you swearing when recovering @ hight speeds. Fly the 190 and you know what I mean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You might better see it from this side: 7 to 8gs are a real hard punch into your brain's stomach http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
In a normal a/c you'd have to reorientate after such a blackout, so the time seem accurate, even if I'm also sswearing when the screen turns black again...



http://www.brooksart.com/Longnose.jpg
"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."
http://www.virtual-jabog32.de
http://www.jg68.de.vu

gates123
01-27-2004, 12:01 PM
I fly the 190 alot but the recovery times on high speed high g turns arent nearly as bad. When you let off on the stick just a little you get some sort of site back within 1-3 seconds (which seems about right) but in that P-51 especially i can let off on the stick completely and it takes at least 5-7 seconds IF i raise my flaps back to normal, If they stay at combat it even takes even longer to recover. I just dont see any consistency.

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

ucanfly
01-27-2004, 02:17 PM
Not trying to be argumentative but it is obvious that the P-51 is more maneuverable at hi speeds than the 190 therefore you are pulling higher gs, which means you have a higher chance of blacking out. Let up on the elevater a little on the P-51 when you first see signs of blackout may halp I found. Hard to do when under stress I know.

gates123
01-27-2004, 03:25 PM
Ok maybe I'm beating the bush or not explaining myself correctly. I realize the p-51 and la-7 are one of the best tnb'rs in the game. There is a point in the g load where you lose site and EVERYTHING goes black. Its like that in every fighter if you have enough energy in a tight turn. It seems that once you've commited to make your screen go black (mistake or not) in a p-51 and you try to ease up on the elevator to prevent further g load you do not regain any sort of site for a abnormally long amount of time. Lets say for example for the sake of argument in FB the average pilot loses full consiousness (screen is completey black) at 7 g's in any plane. Should'nt the recovery time be consistent in all planes if you let go of the elevator and straighten the plane out? My point is it isn't. In other planes minus the p-51 and la-7 the recovery time is much faster out of blackout and in dogfighting 3-5 second is eternity wheather your on your way to hitting the ground of your forced to fly straight because you can't see. The enemy who was on your 6 just pulled the same 7g turn now has the advantage of site because he is in a techically less manueverable plane? That doesnt make sense. So my question here is about g load modeling. It doesnt seem right in the new patch. I didn't seem to experience this in 1.2 patch and the la-7. Its only been since the release of the p-51 1.21/1.22 where there has been a g load inconsistency in the game. Thats just one pilots opinion what's yours?

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

kyrule2
01-27-2004, 03:26 PM
I fly the 190 alot and I can tell you blackouts last plenty of time, it all depends on how hard I was pulling. I've had some incredibly long blackout times when I performed severe maneuvers. I agree with ucanfly that the P-51 pulls these maneuvers much easier so therefore you may simply be pulling more G's, hence the longer recovery time. I fly the P-51 sometimes, and I like it because it is similar in some ways to the 190 (they both feel realistic without anti-gravity device), and I don't think the blackout times are any longer, but then I really don't pull very hard maneuvers either. I could be wrong but the recovery times seem fine to me. As compared to other planes I can't really say as I don't fly too many others besides 109 and 262.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

WB_Outlaw
01-27-2004, 03:53 PM
Neutralizing the stick does not necessarily reduce the g-load to the same in two aircraft. The trim setting can maintain a pretty high g-load at high speeds even with the stick centered.

There are several factors that determine how quickly and how long you stay blacked out. There is no absolute "committed to make your screen go black" that is the same in every situation. In addition to the absolute g-load, the rate of application can greatly affect your nap time. If you slowly increase the g-load you can maintain functionality longer and recover more quickly than if you yank the stick back into your gut. At least that's what I was told by my F-15 pilot buddy after he gout out of the centrifuge. He did a real good "jerkin' chicken" on the video.

I don't know how much of this is modeled in the game but without a cockpit g-meter, I'm thinking that it is VERY difficult to compare two blackout situations.

-Outlaw.

gates123
01-27-2004, 04:06 PM
Once I commit to a turning fight I try and ride the edge as long as possible, no "yanking" while always trying to maintain site of the enemy. It just seems like no matter how easy your trying to take it in a turn, once you blackout in a p-51 or la-7 theres no coming back for ALONG... time. Maybe I'll just resort to flying Il-2's and Stuka's so I wont waste any of your guys time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Gunner_361st
01-27-2004, 04:50 PM
I know 100% what you are talking about, Gates. I observed what I've dubbed the "nap time" of the Mustang and its extreme high speed agility quite a while ago. However, I do not fly the LA7 enough to see if it does the same.. I've noticed that high speed compression with the LA series is well modeled now, so I figured they didn't even have enough response to do it, but apparently they do at the right speed.

Personally, I don't think much of it. The way I remedy it is not pull the manuever that violently, by flying and being prepared enough that you don't have to.

Kyrule is right too, you can do the same in the FW190, especially the Dora, but I don't think its as responsive at high speeds as the Stang, so the blackout doesn't last as long.

Plus, considering how rapidly the FW190 bleeds speed in hard manuevers anyway, I make a habit of not doing them unless it is a nice scissor or rolling scissor :P

But anyway, its been noted. S~

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

ZG77_Nagual
01-27-2004, 06:12 PM
Thing to know - I don't know if they modeled it - they might have - but the 190 had a much better seat than any of the allied fighters - it was reclined to enable the pilot to withstand higher G's - and it worked - brit test pilots noted this.

LeadSpitter_
01-27-2004, 08:07 PM
P51s pilots used gsuits also which of course isnt modeled and can be since each plane has its own different blackout level. I hope they make the p51 engine stronger, prone to ground fire is entirely different then tail and wing hits the recochet into the engine and kill it everytime.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

kyrule2
01-27-2004, 08:29 PM
I think the P-51's engine is a bit weak (it gets knocked out easily), but the main structure seems a bit strong to me. Look at Jtd's findings and the P-51 took the 3rd most hits to bring down, after the P-47 and IL-2. I've given some P-51's a serious raking and they continued on quite easily provided I didn't hit the engine. I think the main body of the P-51 is too strong but maybe it's better Oleg doesn't touch it, look what he did to the 190. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Staying on topic, the 190 and P-51 should have advantages when it comes to blackouts as was mentioned (G-suits & seat positioning of 190).

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

Maple_Tiger
01-27-2004, 08:56 PM
Um, gates123

You may want to change your mind about the P-51 being a turn and burn fighter.

Shure you can out turn FB109's, the late one's i mean in the QMB but the AI's are stupid.

A good BF109 pilot online will most of the time win in a turn fight against the P-51.

Some times you can win in a turn fight against a BF109 but usualy its because the pilot is not familur with it. Fuel plays a roll to. You can give a good BF109 pilot a good go if you have 25% fuel and he has 50%. But if you get a BF109 that is lower in fuel then your in trouble.

Now i could be wronge. any one with more knowlage is more then welcome to set me straight. Or even ad some more info would be good to, on this subject.

VW-IceFire
01-27-2004, 09:18 PM
I'd put the P-51 and late war Bf 109 turn rates at around the same ability. The 109 I think can sustain better but the P-51 can usually get in tighter for a few seconds to snap off a burst.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Bearcat99
01-27-2004, 09:50 PM
The Jug is no cakewalk either. It's a BnZ fighter but when you try to BnZ you black out. And the AI dont have that problem. At least it woul;d be nice if they were limited. But i suppose I should be glad I have a sim where i cant wax the AI evertyime.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

LeadSpitter_
01-28-2004, 06:30 AM
Yeah blackout levels seem to be very wrong, look at the stuka for example you dont blackout from the steepest dive and recovery, with or without the airbrake and auto recovery feature,

The f2 f4 g2 b239 i16s and i153s can perform the tightest manuevers non stop without blacking out, even pilots of wwi blacked out in spads and fokkers.



stricter blackouts but quicker recovery times would stop alot of the unrealistic manuvering happening even if the quick recovery isnt realistic then 10-20 seconds "Baa Baa Black Sheep"

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-29-2004, 01:06 AM
The Mustang has to have the best elevator response in the game and going at high speeds and turning hard or pulling up will certainly cause a high G blackout to happen. If you fly the Mustang as much as I do I would suggest this: Adjust your pitch response under the input option to start out like 3,5,7,13,17,ect. something like that as long as your last ends at 100 or close. Also before takeoff I always trim my elevators a few notches down. Having done this since the beta I can keep from blacking out as often. I have also managed to to cause enemy Mustangs to blackout when I didnt.
Just a thought.
=S=

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg

LeadSpitter_
01-29-2004, 07:11 AM
best elevator response at 700-900

me262
190
p51 blacksout before the two above at slower speed with less elevator pressure

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

p1ngu666
01-29-2004, 02:19 PM
i had a long blackout in the 262. no surprise?
i was upside down...

01-30-2004, 05:44 PM
In real life you can't tell how long an GLOC episode lasts. It might *seem* like 2 seconds but you might have really been out for 20. No way to simulate that on a computer, though.

01-30-2004, 05:54 PM
The USAF has a video of GLOC and recovery (warning 18.3MB): here (http://www.spatiald.wpafb.af.mil/videos/GLOCa.mpg)

Notice that it took over 10 seconds from the time the subject was under 2 G's until she finally woke up.

Also notice how she does the "funky chicken" upon recovery. If your feet are still on the pedals at that point, bad things can happen. Usually your hands are already off the stick, though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif