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View Full Version : Two Matchup Problems for Orochi.



DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 08:33 AM
I've been at this game non-stop for over 4 months, still love it.
I used to hate Centurion, but after cranking up my debuff resistance, find they are helpless against me one on one.
(When getting ganked by one of them, different story of course)

So, the two characters that frustrate my Orochi the most are Highlander and Berserker.

You can see my thread about facing Highlander as Orochi here, and how my frustrations are not argued against by anyone using Orochi or Highlander!

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1734250-Facing-Highlander-as-Orochi-what-can-I-do

And facing Berserker has been so difficult as well.
With reflex blocking not registering at least half the time, he just steam rolls Orochi.
When he gets a top heavy, there goes 70% of my health, or the infinite lights chain that Orochi can not evade or barely ever block.
Would have to get a parry on the first hit to avoid this, which I don't think should be his only chance to stop Berserker from doing major damage to him.

Does anyone disagree with these two characters having a major advantage over Orochi?
With Highlander, getting a Parry still won't save you and get you in a position finish him, as the damage dealt between the two characters is drastically favored to Highlander.

Tips are appreciated, but I wanted to post this, because I just want Ubisoft to look at possibly helping Orochi with these two matchups, as they seem very unbalaced against Orochi to me.

As I've said a few times, I don't want to be frustrated indefintely for wanting to use Orochi only, as I play this game because I love being a Samurai and wielding a katana blade, and I won't be a fan of the rumored Ronin character come Season 4, as I prefer only one sword, not two.

Charmzzz
09-11-2017, 09:29 AM
1. There will always be unfavourable matchups in a fighting game. Assassins will always have hard times against superarmor because they cannot interrupt the enemy chains.
2. Orochi has more range than Berserker. Should be no problem for you to hit him before he can hit you.
3. Berserker Top Heavy is one of the slowes attacks in the game. As long as you are not wallsplat you should parry / dodge it pretty easy every time.
4. You cannot stop Berserker infinite chains? Why? You can parry or block every hit as they are pretty slow compared to other light attacks.
5. Same for Highlander, train your parry skills. And not only on the opponents first move.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 12:02 PM
Yeah, the hyper armor plus damage dealt between Orochi and Highlander is what is so frustrating.
As you can see from the Highlander thread, with everyone there in agreement...

Orochi can get the jump on Highlander, get a chain in, and Highlander not being phased due to hyper armor swings into his 3 swing chain.
If all three hit, Orochi is dead, literally.

And he sure can't dodge out of range, so...
If Orochi gets a parry, yaay...
He can get another little chain of damage that won't finish Highlander, and one more chain from Highlander and now Orochi is dead for sure...
If you've played perfect enough to due that well.

As far as Berserker...
Sure more range with the predictable, easily defended Storm Rush.
If perfectly timed, if not he rushes right into the infinite light chain of Berseker.

Then you go to block, and you are lucky if half the blocks register.
Same issue with the slow top heavy.
And you can not dodge out of range of the infinite light chain either.

if the blocking would register, I could see this match up being more equal.

These two are just the most frustrating characters for me.

Seems the rest in the game I have balanced fights with all the time,, and don't get frustrated with when I lose half of them.

But thanks for the tips.

Charmzzz
09-11-2017, 12:15 PM
Hm, I dont want to sound offensive, but if you start your chain when you see that Highlander does his -> clearly a learn to play issue on your side. In every fighting game if you want to get good it is not enough to know YOUR character and his moves, but all other characters and their moves, too. I adjust my playstyle depending on the opponent.

E.g. Highlander comes at me with his heavy mixup. It always comes from your left side. Always. And it has a voiceline which warns you. Parry it. If they do not mixup -> dodge or deflect.
If you only block it, wait for the next move. Highlander's chains are pretty predictable, after his heavy mixup game they normally transition into offensive stance for a kick / throw. Dodge it and punish. Once he did his full chain he is almost OOS, THEN is your time to attack.

Berserker has lower range than you on every attack. You did know that, didn't you? He has to be in hug range to attack, you don't.

Half the blocks only register for you? You should definitely check your equipment. My blocks register with a 95% accuracy. I can block Light and Zone spam from PK's and Orochi's even when they are in Revenge. You have a wired Internet connection to your PC / Console? Wired Controller? TV with Game Mode or PC Monitor? All those things are essential for such a twitch game like For Honor. High responsiveness and reducing every possible input lag is essential for every FPS and Fighting Game.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 01:50 PM
Hm, I dont want to sound offensive, but if you start your chain when you see that Highlander does his -> clearly a learn to play issue on your side. In every fighting game if you want to get good it is not enough to know YOUR character and his moves, but all other characters and their moves, too. I adjust my playstyle depending on the opponent.

E.g. Highlander comes at me with his heavy mixup. It always comes from your left side. Always. And it has a voiceline which warns you. Parry it. If they do not mixup -> dodge or deflect.
If you only block it, wait for the next move. Highlander's chains are pretty predictable, after his heavy mixup game they normally transition into offensive stance for a kick / throw. Dodge it and punish. Once he did his full chain he is almost OOS, THEN is your time to attack.

Berserker has lower range than you on every attack. You did know that, didn't you? He has to be in hug range to attack, you don't.

Well, with that overall tone and wording, it seems you wanted to sound just a little offensive, come now.
Just preempted with "hm, I don't want to sound offensive, but..."
But none the less, I'll have to forgive the web page hostility because all that detailed advice on Highlander was the most excellent I've received yet by far, thank you.

Berserker though, I don't really buy your argument.
I do realize his attacks are all withing hugging range.
But It is still very difficult for Orochi to space and time it perfectly with his marginally higher range comparatively, aside from the Storm Rush having very high range.
(Telegraphed and stopped as an opening move, useless anyway)
And when succeeding at this, his chains do less damage comparatively and then put him in the hug range.
Just seems like a lose, lose for him here.

It's not as if Orochi can just just swoop in to the perfect spot where his range is just out of Berserker's reach and withing his, that perfect little sweet spot, with much efficiency and do an even amount of damage.
And even when he does, then if he doesn't evade or defend perfectly, he's going to take considerably more damage.
I'm telling ya'llz, and I'm sure if you ask any Orochi main users...
Berserker is just balanced in dominating fashion against him, which I understand happens, not saying the devs are horrible and neglectful for this.

Orochi is listed by everyone on this forum when they post their little tier lists at mid-tier highest.
Literally every one I've seen posted at least.
I don't complain much, like I said, I have great balanced battles with all the other characters and don't mind when I lose them.
I just think this match up needs to be looked at.



Half the blocks only register for you? You should definitely check your equipment. My blocks register with a 95% accuracy. I can block Light and Zone spam from PK's and Orochi's even when they are in Revenge. You have a wired Internet connection to your PC / Console? Wired Controller? TV with Game Mode or PC Monitor? All those things are essential for such a twitch game like For Honor. High responsiveness and reducing every possible input lag is essential for every FPS and Fighting Game.

I work for Comcast.
I have a gig speed connection. (1,000 mbps)
Straight wired ethernet cord from the modem to the PS4.
Nacon Revolution Pro Controller, doesn't have a wireless version.
In other words, I have faster internet than 99% of people, beyond maximum aptitude for gaming input, and nothing wireless.

Do you mind me asking, do you have these success rates at blocking with assassins as well?
I've seen a ton of people here complain about reflex blocking issues since three patches ago.
And if you are on PS4 with these success rates then, or one of the other two platforms?
And yes, I have my guard dead zone setting optimized.

Charmzzz
09-11-2017, 02:21 PM
I am playing on PC with Mouse / Keyboard, all wired connections and a 144hz Monitor. Since you work for a big provider you should know that transfer rates does not equal ping / latency times. I could have 10-20ms ping on a 7,6kb/sec ISDN connection if the netcode of the game is not that demanding on bandwidth (in the old Quake 1/2 days I had exactly that connection). For every game these days you do not need more than a 1mbit down / 128kbit up connection.

If alot of your blocks do not register it could be due to high ping times. Or slow reaction times on your side. While yes, there is a bug concerning reflex guard on Assassins, it occurs very rarely in specific circumstances (immediate block after dodge is bugged if I remember it correctly). I know that Consoles suffer from higher input lag mostly due to playing on TV's with slower response time (about 100ms). If an Attack comes out with 500ms time to react - Console players on slow TV's only have 400ms just by playing on a normal TV. Subtract latency (another 50-100ms dependant on the other guy and your connection), 50ms Console - Controller input latency and you are left with about 250 - 300ms time to react.

On Assassins you can even be tricked into a fading guard situation. E.g. the enemy Warden feints a Top Heavy, you put your guard up, he immediately throws out a real Top Heavy. If you fail to refresh your guard by switching to a different side and back in a small time window - you will eat the Top Heavy because your guard faded away. I hope my explanation is understandable in this case.

PDXGorechild
09-11-2017, 02:23 PM
I work for Comcast.
I have a gig speed connection. (1,000 mbps)
Straight wired ethernet cord from the modem to the PS4.
Nacon Revolution Pro Controller, doesn't have a wireless version.
In other words, I have internet faster the 99% of people, beyond maximum aptitude for gaming input, and nothing wireless.

Do you mind me asking, do you have these success rates at blocking with assassins as well?
I've seen a ton of people here complain about reflex blocking issues since three patches ago.
And if you are on PS4 with these success rates then, or other platform?
Thanks again.


I have PS4, Ethernet connection with 70mbps fibre optic and a regular wireless controller and my reflex block works fine. Sure I have to be on the ball, but it works. I main Berserker and have played about on Orochi and PK and feel that if i don't pull off a block, I only have myself to blame 99% of the time. There is the odd occasion where it feels like its bugged or spacked out, but this may be due to a plethora of factors.

As far as your matchup problem goes:

Berserker has to be in hugging range to attack, as mentioned by Charmzzz. A good Berserker will always start his infinite chain with a side light attack, made harder to judge by the fact he'll spin his guard around to mask which direction it's coming from. Against Orochi, I've often been caught in the face by a top light whilst I do this distracting dance, so bear that in mind. The light attack will be hard to counter, especially on console. But once he's landed the light, he'll swing the heavy. The heavy may come from the same side as the light, or the opposite side, or above. The above one, although it hits like a freight train, is VERY slow and ENDS the infinite chain combo. This is the only way to finish the infinite chain combo. So chances are, unless he thinks you're useless at blocking, he'll go for a side heavy. This is also pretty slow and should be fairly easy to counter if you're ready for it. Parrying or deflecting it is obviously the best plan. Failing this, if you do pull off a block, DODGE backwards or perform a spin attack if possible to avoid the next hit, cause it's coming, and it's coming fast. Don't bother trying to interrupt because his lights are pretty fast and his heavies will be hyperarmoured. Getting caught up in his infinite chain is a death sentence for all other Assassins.

It goes light, heavy, light, heavy for infinity to keep the chain going, or until he swings the top heavy or runs out of stamina. (The latter being far more likely) I'd recommend playing the Berserker against a 0 lvl bot to get a feel for this combo. Once you do - it's pretty easy to counter. A good Orochi will dodge in and out of range, chipping away at the Zerk's relatively low health pool, never allowing himself to get caught up, backed into a corner or going toe to toe with the Berserker. Being ever mindful of the fact he may try and close the gap with a leap attack. These always come from above and are telegraphed - so shouldn't be a problem if you expect it.

Of course any dedicated Berserker will have his feint game down. This complicates things for an Orochi, and just means you'll have even more incentive to stay out of his range.

I'd also like to add that I played against an Orochi in a Gold tier tournament over the weekend and got my *** handed to me on a platter. He parried every heavy I didn't feint in my chain, and countered my feints with top lights. I didn't manage to lay my finger on the bastard.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 03:03 PM
Well now, and that was the best advice I've ever heard on Berserker.

Yet again, I feel I've been proven wrong on all three characters I felt where unfair to Orochi.

First was Centurion, who a while back I figured out debuff resistance was the key to making him a joke of a one on one match up for me.
And I did like Charmzzz Highlander advice very much.
Didn't buy his Berserker argument, but your detailed advice definitely makes me think I just need to learn how to fight him better.

Thanks a bunch then guys.
Seems I just need to play more from both sides with bots and know how to combat this.

Thought I would have learned after complaining about Centurion and then learning I could destroy him, that there's always a way, lol.
Okay, I swear this is the last time I'm gonna complain about match ups on here, less I look just under educated on mechanics of the match ups again.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 03:07 PM
I am playing on PC with Mouse / Keyboard, all wired connections and a 144hz Monitor. Since you work for a big provider you should know that transfer rates does not equal ping / latency times. I could have 10-20ms ping on a 7,6kb/sec ISDN connection if the netcode of the game is not that demanding on bandwidth (in the old Quake 1/2 days I had exactly that connection). For every game these days you do not need more than a 1mbit down / 128kbit up connection.

If alot of your blocks do not register it could be due to high ping times. Or slow reaction times on your side. While yes, there is a bug concerning reflex guard on Assassins, it occurs very rarely in specific circumstances (immediate block after dodge is bugged if I remember it correctly). I know that Consoles suffer from higher input lag mostly due to playing on TV's with slower response time (about 100ms). If an Attack comes out with 500ms time to react - Console players on slow TV's only have 400ms just by playing on a normal TV. Subtract latency (another 50-100ms dependant on the other guy and your connection), 50ms Console - Controller input latency and you are left with about 250 - 300ms time to react.

On Assassins you can even be tricked into a fading guard situation. E.g. the enemy Warden feints a Top Heavy, you put your guard up, he immediately throws out a real Top Heavy. If you fail to refresh your guard by switching to a different side and back in a small time window - you will eat the Top Heavy because your guard faded away. I hope my explanation is understandable in this case.

Very, thanks a ton.
This thread has been a great help.

And I'm in sales, I don't know how all that ping stuff works, lol, over my head.
But I follow what you're saying with it overall.

PDXGorechild
09-11-2017, 03:17 PM
Well now, and that was the best advice I've ever heard on Berserker.

You're welcome. Playing classes you hate fighting, even if just against a level 0 Bot, is key to understanding them and getting better at fighting them, and hopefully hating them less.

Happy Zerker hunting!

psyminion
09-11-2017, 05:12 PM
You're welcome. Playing classes you hate fighting, even if just against a level 0 Bot, is key to understanding them and getting better at fighting them, and hopefully hating them less.

Happy Zerker hunting!

as a Rep 31 Orochi on ps4 (playing since closed beta), so much this. just block the zerkera chain and wait for your opportunity by parrying the top heavy and go on the offensive.

know your enemy.
most of all, know yourself.

there isnt any one Hero I struggle with fighting anymore (unless I get parried by a centurion and raped of stamina near a wall), it comes down to who knows their own moveset and tactics of both themselves and their opponent better than the other guy.
for me that's when the fun begins... mind games.

HumoLoco
09-11-2017, 07:32 PM
I agreed. but still i main orochi can beat highlander as well, because highlander has slow attack but sometime monster fast attack yet cant beat aggressive orochi. but not berserker.

I only want see that orochi can rape berserker by his light attack to stop him being doing attacks but berserker continues his attacks on me- no way to avoid their happy attacks. Til i master orochi's deflect can barely beat berserker due to his infinite combo.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 08:27 PM
OKAYYYYYYY.....

I'm on to something here now.
I took video clips of me getting destroyed yet again by Berserker three times, where I just stood and attempted to simply block his light chain.

Watched them in slow motion and noticed I am in fact having a huge problem with my blocks registering.

I just stood there in guard stance and correctly moved my right stick in the direction of every attack.

One example...
I noticed after he hit my right side with his first attack, I blocked it but with substantial chip damage, okay that's fine...
It made both the clank and flesh hit sound.
Then he came from the top on the second hit, and my guard stayed on the right until a good two seconds after I ate the hit from the top.

I know damn well I had pushed that stick up in plenty of time.
And I saw my guard move to the top well after the time I was pushing the stick to the left now to try to block more attacks.
So, what could be some issues here?

I have a wired controller, great net speed, and my guard zone dead zone set to 1.

Please help!

PDXGorechild
09-12-2017, 08:48 AM
OKAYYYYYYY.....

I'm on to something here now.
I took video clips of me getting destroyed yet again by Berserker three times, where I just stood and attempted to simply block his light chain.

Watched them in slow motion and noticed I am in fact having a huge problem with my blocks registering.

I just stood there in guard stance and correctly moved my right stick in the direction of every attack.

One example...
I noticed after he hit my right side with his first attack, I blocked it but with substantial chip damage, okay that's fine...
It made both the clank and flesh hit sound.
Then he came from the top on the second hit, and my guard stayed on the right until a good two seconds after I ate the hit from the top.

I know damn well I had pushed that stick up in plenty of time.
And I saw my guard move to the top well after the time I was pushing the stick to the left now to try to block more attacks.
So, what could be some issues here?

I have a wired controller, great net speed, and my guard zone dead zone set to 1.

Please help!

I have experienced, moreso recently, that sometimes I land a hit and the enemy will appear to block initially (makes the "Thunk" sound) and then it will go through the block and hit them ("Squish" sound). Im not sure if this is a latency issue or something to do with timesnap, but it's definitely happening more in the past couple weeks. It doesn't happen frequently though, DaLast_Samurai, so I can only think if it's happening frequently to you it's an input lag problem. Perhaps contact Ubi and see if you can optimise your settings somehow? Past this I dunno.

As for the Berserker chain, it's not just a light chain you know. If he hits you with a light, block the heavy and get the f*ck outta there. Dodge backwards and out of it, and work on your dodging skills in an attempt to keep him out of range. Light attacks, guard break and hit and run tactics are key, let him tie you up and you're dead if you can't parry or deflect.