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ItBeJUSTICE1
09-11-2017, 02:35 AM
We all know shinobi is a nighttmare for new players. His whole tool list is a noob stomp machine. But for experienced players he's basically useless for anything except light spam and kick spam. I think he needs a improvement to his ranged gb's and his heavies should be sped up. His ranged heavies should stay the same since those can be spammed as they are from max distance and not get punished by most characters. He needs a bit more health. Not the normal assassin health but a bar and a half more seems fair. What do you guys think? Rep 11 shinobi btw and i know every in and out with him there is. I do well with him but one mistake and you're pretty screwed

S0Mi_xD
09-11-2017, 02:41 AM
In my opinion, the only real big change he need is, a different range attack punish.

Not to be thrown down but pulled to the enemy into close combat range - no free dmg, but a small recovery, so the shinobi can't use this pull as an advantage.
Also a small hp boost from 90 to 100

The rest from him is really good, and if you know how to play him he is nearly untouchable.

ItBeJUSTICE1
09-11-2017, 02:47 AM
In my opinion, the only real big change he need is, a different range attack punish.

Not to be thrown down but pulled to the enemy into close combat range - no free dmg, but a small recovery, so the shinobi can't use this pull as an advantage.
Also a small hp boost from 90 to 100

The rest from him is really good, and if you know how to play him he is nearly untouchable.

I could agree with you if his ranged gb wasnt so easily countered. And its ounishable. Its as easy to counter as a normal gb with a slight difference obviously aince its from a distance. His heavies are too slow even if they were only increased by 200-300 ms. It would be a lot more useful.

We.the.North
09-11-2017, 04:28 AM
All I want is to be able to dodge between 2 heavy attacks, especially when those heavy attacks are 500-600 ms fast.

That and so many other things.

We.the.North
09-11-2017, 11:05 PM
Made this post elsewhere, here's a copy paste :

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Problem #1 : "Front Roll" requires you to "hit" that ranged heavy attack. The only reliable way to do so is with your "kick" which is very unsafe in 1v1 against most characters (very safe vs warden)
Solution : Add "uninterruptible" to ranged heavy attacks
Result : Front roll can now be used on a blocked ranged heavy as well

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Problem #2 : After a "Front Roll Kick", both the ranged GB and the ranged Hvy can be countered
Solution : Streamline all of Shinobi's kicking ability --> the ranged GB is counterable but the ranged Hvy is garanteed
Result : Less confusion regarding what can and can't be done. More reward from front rolling

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Problem #3 : An opponent with any "dodge attack" can safely punish anything you'd do after a "Front Roll"
Solution : Give "Crushing Front Roll" hyper armor on the last heavy attack
Result : A dodge attack would still hit you, but so would your following "Sickle Rain" and despite your small hp, you'd come out on top on that trade.
** : The timing of "Crushing Front Roll" would need to be tested to make sure it doesn't whiff in the air while the opponent dodges.

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Problem #4 : The "Zooming" characters will hit you when you do a "Back Flip"
Solution : Give the "Back Flip" a "Dodge Ability" like Nobushi's Hidden Stance
Result : Your opponent's attacks now properly whiff through your back flips dodge

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Problem #5 : The "Double Dodge Attacks" cost a lot of stamina and takes time, some opponent's combo chains will hit you before you can attack.
Solution : Change both "Double Dodge Light" and "Double Dodge Heavy" to normal "Dodge Light" and "Dodge Heavy"
Result : Shinobi will reach exhaustion later, Shinobi now properly punish dodged attacks.

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Problem #6 : After "Teleport Kick", both the ranged GB and the ranged Hvy can be countered
Solution : Streamline all of Shinobi's kicking ability --> the ranged GB is counterable but the ranged Hvy is garanteed
Result : Less confusion regarding what can and can't be done. More reward from a deflect
** : Deflect + Light attack is still useful, because it's faster and thus usable when outnumbered

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Problem #7 : Performing a "Deflect" is unsafe and less rewarding than a "Parry"
Solution : The "Parry" and "Deflect" window of success should be the same, "Deflect" should work with "Unblockable Attacks"
Result : Players will go for "Deflects" more often.

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Problem #8 : Shinobi's ranged moves will still be highly punishable after the nerf to the defensive meta
Solution : Countering a Shinobi's ranged move should pull him forward in melee range with a stagger duration long enough for a "Light Attack" punish (no guard break)
Result : More consistency of "Punish" after parrying a "Heavy Attack" post defensive meta fix patch

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Problem #9 : Shinobi's "Stagger Duration" after being hit stunlocks him when outnumbered or prevent him from dodging out of a 2nd attack in a fast combo chain (Highlander will land that 2nd heavy 90% of the time because of our screwed up reflex guard stance, taking away about 90% of our health)
Solution : Reduce Shinobi's "stagger duration" after being hit.
Result : Improves Shinobi's surviability, less frustration from losing control over your character

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Problem #10 : Shinobi has many kicks able to drain stamina, but no real OOS punish (forget about trying to GB + Throw)
Solution : Shinobi kicks against out of stamina characters should knock them down (just like when in old revenge mode)
Result : Shinobi is now able to perform two ranged heavy attacks before his opponent wakes up

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Problem #11 : Shinobi's small health pool is a bigger problem in 4v4 mode where gear (armor pen + attack) adds +20% damage to everything
Solution : Replace "Smoke Bomb" by another 2nd level feat that prevents the Shinobi from losing more than 1/4 of his max life per attack. (25 if hp is raised to 100)
Result : Improves Shinobi's surviability in a unique way, encouraging players to change their play style to do more light attacks. Also lessen the amount of punish a Shinobi gets from being Guard Broken while he's dodging.
** : Players that want a high risk high reward Shinobi can still pick "Revenge Attacks" or "Throwing Stars" as their second feat.

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Problem #12 : Very few players play Shinobi in duels. Probably because he dies in 2-3 punish and because of the defensive meta.
Solution : Raise his hp from 90 to 100. Still lowest in the game, but fixing other points above will also improve survivalbility and I wouldn't want ot overbuff him.
Result : We might see more Shinobi's in duels, which improves diversity and overall game play experience

UbiInsulin
09-11-2017, 11:30 PM
Thank you for the suggestions! We've seen players' feedback on the Shinobi and are passing ideas like these on to the team. We've definitely brought up potentially buffing their health, for example.

We.the.North
09-11-2017, 11:43 PM
Health wouldn't be such an issue if a single heavy didn't stagger the Shinobi as much. There are so many 500-600 ms heavy follow up now ... Shinobi's biggest problem is getting staggered into a stunlock.

Playing Shinobi, a character that protects itself by DODGING and thus has the worst reflex guard stance in the game, has become extremely unsafe ... not because of the lack of hp, but because you can't dodge out of many other Hero's combos. I repeat, A shinobi is a dodge character that can't dodge when on the receiving end mid combo. You "think" you can dodge since you regain control over your character just a tiny bit before the second/third attack land, but not fast enough to actually dodge anything.

It is ESPECIALLY unfair against the Highlander since his Celtic Curse mix up comes out very fast. You can't stagger him with a quick light-light since he gets hyper armor and if you fail your parry, you'll eat the 2nd heavy attack for sure, losing 90% of your health in the process (In Dominion with +20% atk weapon, full defense penetration and the 2nd feat unlocked). And if you do get the parry off, you'll be often too far to guardbreak him, so you often only get a light-light punish. In other words, if you parry, you deal about 20% of his hp in damage ; if he hits you, you receive 90% of your health in damage. That's not fair.

Not saying Highlander is overpowered, he has many flaws. But I am saying Highlander - Shinobi is a very one sided match up.

SenBotsu893
09-12-2017, 12:09 AM
what he needs is the standard 120 assasin HP. or else he will never be able to keep up with all the other assasins in the game.

S0Mi_xD
09-12-2017, 04:58 AM
I could agree with you if his ranged gb wasnt so easily countered. And its ounishable. Its as easy to counter as a normal gb with a slight difference obviously aince its from a distance. His heavies are too slow even if they were only increased by 200-300 ms. It would be a lot more useful.

If you want faster range attacks, you need to count with dmg nerf (you know this thing called balance :D)

CrunaCross
09-12-2017, 05:03 AM
what he needs is the standard 120 assasin HP. or else he will never be able to keep up with all the other assasins in the game.

no. Maybe a slight buff to 100 but not more. Shinobi has more mobility than other assassins, so the health pool should be lower.

S0Mi_xD
09-12-2017, 05:10 AM
no. Maybe a slight buff to 100 but not more. Shinobi has more mobility than other assassins, so the health pool should be lower.

That's right - if shinobi is played well it is really hard to hit him.
And if skilled people play shinobi, it is hell of a fight.