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View Full Version : My Thoughts on the Warlord nerf and more...



LeifUlfsonCz
09-10-2017, 07:02 PM
Hi Guys! Am a Warlord main you see and i'd like to give some of my own feedback.

Well yes am a WL main. I didn't pick him for his moveset. I Did so because i like the idea of him overall. When i first saw the patch notes i was angry at you mostly, because they really looked scary to me. But i tried to gave it some time and thought and here you go:

1) Starting with the full block stance punish. That's right kind of nerf there. Totally agree with it.

2) His Counter slash damage was increased. GOOD :D i see that when you decided to buff this you couldn't let it stand in the parry system. I understand it, agree with it and its ok.
Giving him all direction heavy after parry is nice. It brings more mix up potential to the fight, but most of us suffered that we lost that guaranteed heavy damage after parry. Well i see why you removed it. No hero has such a punish and in the light of incoming parry changes it's very much understandable. I have this for you though. WL suffers because of it I suggest that you increase the speed of the heavy after the parry so it can be used as countering move as was the counter-slash after parry. His heavies are slow. And everybody by now knows his top heavies are the quickest. So he is more likely to be parried after his own parry if he sticks with the current speed of his heavies after his own parry. Yes we have more mix ups from it but WLs lights aren't really quick and GB is really watched in high level fights so he really gains nothing from it. But i get it. In the light of new def meta nobody can have heavy after heavy parry. THAT's only right. Also If player decides not to use shield counter and goes for that guaranteed light.. well suprisse ... no real damage.

3) I tend to disagree with the shield counter nerf. its too much. YES we have the stamina delay now but 20 is too low give him 25 or 30 that would be good OR increase the time till the stamina starts to regen. I would prefer the first mentioned though.

4) Well and then there is the damage nerf. Guys this isn't the right way. In higher level fights you only try to lend one attack not the finisher in WL case. The nerf is bad. give him his previous values, because you really nerfed his offense with this. As i said his lights are slow. And increasing damage on his slowest top light finisher doesn't make really sense. Not to me at least. MAYBE let him have 30 damage on his heavies (at least top and 32-33 to his side heavies). And his lights restore to former values. Against the other tank classes he has disadvantage in this. WL has no Unblockable attack. So to me it makes sense he has slightly more damage on his attacks to compensate that. I know assassins have a hard life but they have other advantages. I understand that having superior block on heavies its big advantage.In this light the nerf makes kinda sense. But nerfing damage isn't really a good way of balancing to me. Rather buff others then nerf damage really.

When the Def meta and parry changes will come the light combo after the shield counter could be even more increased its the parry light guaranteed. It would make sense in that light. and heroes like orochi will really benefit from those changes then.

5) Then there is his headbutt nerf. Ok I actually agree on that. Now his headbutt is more reactable for his opponents and can't be anymore called OP. If am not mistaken then his light after headbutt gives 10 damage, right? When you made his headbutt slower it would feel right if you increased the damage on his light a bit. So WL is rewarded for landing it when its now harder to actually pull it off. (I can imagine having 12 damage on it). I know many will object to it. Because its so spamable ... OK on this forum there is a lot of whiners and they did whine about WL's headbutt. You nerfed it. It feels only right to increase the light damage. There always will be moves that cheap players will exploit. Headbutts, quick lights, kicks, jabs, punches.... There is really no way to dodge that problem. Let them whine, They need to get good. Dodging the Headbutt know is really easy. At least it seems to me...

6) And You increased the side dodge recoveries by 200 ms. That's to much guys really. 100 ms would be enough. Am heaving hard times fighting assassins thx to this. You really shouldn't punish any hero for trying to dodge. Not that way. MAYBE decreasing the damage from dodge punish would be acceptable. (except for assassin classes for sure). I get it WL is more sort of the Here I Stand warrior, But those nerfs you suggested really DO NOT suggest that WL should more rely on his shield and sword strategy.

Overall you nerfed his offense and gave him nothing. That's sad. Because you proclaimed you want us to fight offensively not defensively. This is the right opposite of it. You made him more a turtle by striping him of his offensive abilities. And I don't really want him end up like master turtle Conquerer.

On that sort am hoping my own experience can add to you some valid points and i also hope you'll won't nerf him down either.


O O O O O O O O O O

Now my other thoughts on this game.

You make a lot of stuff for this game. It's Really cool. Great work with the skins and weapons, Am a sucker for things like that.

I was a bit disappointed by not having Viking Village available for dominion. I know you design the maps for certain modes. (its visible on the map design strongly). But it doesn't make sense not designing maps for dominion. It's the most played mode in the game. It surely deserves to be expanded. Other modes don't really require that much of a map design to that end. ( I must confess am not a fan of that skirmish mode either). But not having some reliable source of viking fortresses and stuff I get it its harder to pull dominion viking map at all. But please try it. And there goes my other plea. Make those maps bigger. Maps like Forge and High Fort are really small and fights on those maps sometimes end up being very similar to skirmish on one of the spawns. That's bad in my opinion. But i really DO appriciate the unique design of all the maps. Don' get me wrong. I can only imagine what you have in store for us. We really need more maps in this game. :)

NOW MY THOUGHT ON THE BALANCING

Kensei needs some work. As many people on competitive subreddit already brought up months ago. I came back to him just today and he is not really attractive vanguard.

Raider is now very good. Since giving him soft feint on all his heavies he is pain in my *** ever since. He is fun to fight against.

Warden. Well I think he is in a good spot now.

Conqueror. he need some serious rework, Or more combos, he is turtle like no other. But in a good hands he is the master in that kind of a gameplay. And that is NOT a bad thing. He is just a specialist. He needs to be able to feint his attacks like others. And there is this. Having free Gb on any heavy block? bit OP to me... well i got used to it but.. you know what i mean...

Warlord see above.

Shugoki. Well i have only one thing for this lorrido porco. His Omni charge shouldn't kill you if he is in critical.

Peacekeeper well i like her. Picker her like a month ago and got used to her pretty quick. She is in a good spot in my mind.

Berserker One of the heroes who have to heavily rely on feint game. No good openers just feints. But he is not on a bad spot.

Orochi right now on higher level fights he is not really a good hero his special attacks are readable and heavily punishable and he has only the light combo, which everybody knows. Don't know what with him, where to put him.

Lawbringer. Bringer of salt. He is in a good spot. He is tough. Many players i have encountered tend to turtle with him.

Valkyrie. My second main. i lake where she is. she has strong light spam potential but i get parried often when facing better players so i tend to say she is in a good spot now.

Nobushi. Well to be honest i started to play her two days back. So i dont really know what to say about her. But from my time as WL, facing her was always tough. She has good damage, strong side-dash heavies a sh*t tone of bleed. If you ask me i would nerf a bit that bleed. ***

Centurion. Well you guys are getting tons of hate for him. In my opinion you shouldn't brought him in the game so early. I don't know how much you test it all before you put it in the game. But first time I saw him in action i began to think he was cooked up very quickly. he is a stamina drainer my a**, need sto be slightly nerfed. And having so much punish is really hard for anyone who comes to this game. His timing on unblockabels is strange. Or it feels so. He can feint so much. and feint in mid animation after the start up.. thatĻs not cool. Maybe am mistaken though. I still have hard time facing him. Am not really a good player.

Highlander he so slow. He needs to be able to feint the celtic curse. Don't really have idea what to do else with him. Maybe bigger health pool. He feels so strange. Every good assassin can profit from his slowness and get deflects. (I got wrecked by a good shinobi player as an exaple).

Gladiator. He has many options a can feint as much as centurion. Wow. I found his zone attack to be a bit too much he can through them almost every 5-10 seconds. And many players use the Fusina inctus Or how it's spelled very often. I would suggest to remove it as an option for on light finisher. It's really overused in my opinion. But he us in very good spot.

Shinobi well this guy is also bit strange. I would say he needs more health. Just a bit more. But then i get wrecked by some guys who know how to fight with him. I guess he is in a good spot after his nerfs in season 2.

*** Well i needs to be said i am not really a fan of this bleed mechanic. Why only a certain blades can inflict it? Doesn't make any sense really. Ok dagger is acceptable, but why not shovel? Why not a tip of a sword? Wh not pole axe? Why not any spiky weapon in the game?

If you DID read it till here than thanks for doing so. Hope the devs might as well. Am open for a discussion.

UbiNoty
09-11-2017, 12:40 AM
Whew! Thanks so much for the detailed feedback. I'll definitely forward your thread and your thoughts about WL specifically over to the team.

I'm very, very happy that you tested out the changes first before giving us constructive feedback on the update. This kind of feedback is much more valuable to us since it's 1. well thought-out, 2. constructive, 3. based on real experience (and not just judgement based on text alone). So I definitely want to commend you for that. I'll make sure to especially highlight the points you raised in 3,4,6 and your final commentary on us taking from him without giving anything in return.

As for the rest. Viking village and dominion - yes unfortunately it's not available for dominion, but that's because when we create new maps we create them with specific purposes in mind. We also want to try to keep a good balance of different maps for different modes - so that also probably played into the planning stage of it. And many fo the hero feedback you brought up we are aware of and already working on - so I won't go too much into that or my post will be just as long as yours ;p

Thanks so much again! And keep giving us stuff like this because we <3 constructive wall of texts. :)

Muitcha-melodia
09-11-2017, 01:38 AM
I was about to post some feedback on warlord changes, but this post had almost what i had in mind. Iīm warlord main too on PC. From all things stated the side dodge recovery really hurted the Hero. Now matches against centurion and assassins are much harder to pull. Shinobi has been a real treat in the opening and now, even if i dodge the shinibi kick and the centurion kick/jab i canīt even get a light out of it. Thatīs a hard thing to overcome, and if i do one single mistake the centurion will have all the good cutscences on his belt. Maybe a little tweak on the dodge recovery time wold help, because the increase of 200ms was way to much 100 ms would be enough.
The shield riposte follow up was something nice, it added a lot of possibilities, but the window to feint the heavy is very tight and it is useless against assasins and kensei. Yesterday iīve parry the ligh of a kensei and pulled a shield ripost, but he just dodged my heavy and landed his side dodge attack. The same thing happened against a beserker -parry-shield-ripost and iīve feinted the heavy to GB but his attack landed anyway.
So much of an counter attacker guys!! Now against faster classes the shield ripost opens you to punishment and gives the other heroes a chance to counter attack your counter attack. =/.
The offensive style of play was pretty much crippled now, you can no longer harass your enemy and the conter attack opens you to more harm than good, the changes are welcome indeed, but the dodge recovery and the shield ripost should be something to be looked and buffed a little.
To all my fellow Warlord mains out there, more than ever: "TURTLE UP OR NUT UP"!!!!

S0Mi_xD
09-11-2017, 01:54 AM
I was about to post some feedback on warlord changes, but this post had almost what i had in mind. Iīm warlord main too on PC. From all things stated the side dodge recovery really hurted the Hero. Now matches against centurion and assassins are much harder to pull. Shinobi has been a real treat in the opening and now, even if i dodge the shinibi kick and the centurion kick/jab i canīt even get a light out of it. Thatīs a hard thing to overcome, and if i do one single mistake the centurion will have all the good cutscences on his belt. Maybe a little tweak on the dodge recovery time wold help, because the increase of 200ms was way to much 100 ms would be enough.
The shield riposte follow up was something nice, it added a lot of possibilities, but the window to feint the heavy is very tight and it is useless against assasins and kensei. Yesterday iīve parry the ligh of a kensei and pulled a shield ripost, but he just dodged my heavy and landed his side dodge attack. The same thing happened against a beserker -parry-shield-ripost and iīve feinted the heavy to GB but his attack landed anyway.
So much of an counter attacker guys!! Now against faster classes the shield ripost opens you to punishment and gives the other heroes a chance to counter attack your counter attack. =/.
The offensive style of play was pretty much crippled now, you can no longer harass your enemy and the conter attack opens you to more harm than good, the changes are welcome indeed, but the dodge recovery and the shield ripost should be something to be looked and buffed a little.
To all my fellow Warlord mains out there, more than ever: "TURTLE UP OR NUT UP"!!!!

You know, i can agree with all here in the this thread, but as i looked up the side dodge recovery on all heroes, i thought those 200 ms are just fair.

Warlord - Raised to:
Forward: 400 - 500
Side: 500 - 700

and he is a heavy class.

Shugoki - Conqueror:
600 - 800
700 - 800

Lets take assassin classes (who actually rely very much on dodge because they have bad block and defense option (not like warlord who can go fullguard to get free dmg on block, or has a solid block (not this buggy reflex guard):

PeaceKeeper - Berserker - Orochi
Forward: 500 - 600 - 600
Side: 500 - 600 - 600

Glad same like Berserker and Orochi

The only one i don't understand why is Warden
Forward 300
Side 500

But back to warlord:
He was a hero with nearly no disadvantages, and now he got 2 weakspots.
This may sound abit biased, but take those side hits and go on, every hero has weak spots and can be punished.
This nerf pulls Warlords back to the ground.

kweassa1
09-11-2017, 02:03 AM
You know, i can agree with all here in the this thread, but as i looked up the side dodge recovery on all heroes, i thought those 200 ms are just fair.

Warlord - Raised to:
Forward: 400 - 500
Side: 500 - 700

and he is a heavy class.

Shugoki - Conqueror:
600 - 800
700 - 800

Lets take assassin classes (who actually rely very much on dodge because they have bad block and defense option (not like warlord who can go fullguard to get free dmg on block, or has a solid block (not this buggy reflex guard):

PeaceKeeper - Berserker - Orochi
Forward: 500 - 600 - 600
Side: 500 - 600 - 600

Glad same like Berserker and Orochi

The only one i don't understand why is Warden
Forward 300
Side 500

But back to warlord:
He was a hero with nearly no disadvantages, and now he got 2 weakspots.
This may sound abit biased, but take those side hits and go on, every hero has weak spots and can be punished.
This nerf pulls Warlords back to the ground.


Hmm. Good points. The comparison with other classes certainly did change my own view on the warlord dodges... so after reading the info you've provided, yep, I'd change my view on warlord dodge nerfs as "fair" as well.

Other classes with even less than all the tools and goodies the warlord's got, have been surviving with slower dodges... So despite the fact that the sudden nerf does feel drastic and it did impact my performance with the warlord, I'll accept the fact that much of that performance was due to an unfair advantage,

It's a fair change, and I'll just live with that. I guess I'll just have to adapt.

TSCDescon
09-11-2017, 02:44 AM
No complains here. As long as I can still ledge people from 20ft, I'm good.

LeifUlfsonCz
09-11-2017, 07:46 AM
Well I did not do that recovery research as you did. And it sound only fair that he has 700 ms on his sides as a heavy

In my mind WL is no counter attacker now. His heavy punish was a kind of GB+Heavy after parry with no need fot you to bother GBing after parry with some stamina damage as well. That's why i think if the shield counter is to remain a valid move the light damage follow up MUST BE INCREASED. because giving 10 damage guaranteed after parry is just too small. I admit i didn't try punishing the parry with the light only so i don't know if he is able to land it but i suppose so. But even landing it after parry won't gie you a real damage thanks to his damage nerf on openers. So you might as well go with the shield counter and a follow up.

Overall i didn't like the damage nerf at all. That hurts the most. Counter attacking moves striped off or nerfed to the ground. He needs increase in the light parry follow up if he is to stay a viable counter attacker class. The headbutt makes sense, the heavy after parry has a superior block properties on it ok, but its very parriable and dodgable so it really has no potential as counter move now.

There is one suggested change in strategy for WL.

Against assasins + kensei + valkyrie do not try to perform heavy or heavy feint after parry and shield-counter you'll get dodged and punished OR parried and punished. Well what you can actually do is THIS:

1) If you want to land shield counter you have to use only the light follow up it is guaranteed and still works as a counter attack, well not much damage sure that should be increased in my opinion to function right as a counter move but its at least something against assassins. They can't counter it. Valkyrie and kensei can block it if they attacked previously from their left. WL's right.

2) Well don't use shield counter after parry, just parry - GB opponent and give him guaranteed top heavy. As do any other hero now.

kweassa1
09-11-2017, 08:34 AM
Actually, before seeing S0MI's reasoning, I myself thought the damage nerf was warranted, because it makes sense.


1. Before the nerf, the only classes that had stronger side heavies than the Warlord were...

- Shugoki: 40 @ 1,100ms
- Raider: 40 @ 900ms
- Kensei: 40 @ 900ms

...and then the Warlord is the solo 4th place holder with 35 damage @ 900ms... and then the rest 12 classes are all weaker than the Warlord.

2. Also, among all the classes, only 3 classes have inherent UI (super/hyperarmor) on regular heavies, the Shugoki, Warlord and the Highlander.... and both the Shug, Highlander heavies take 1,000ms or longer, and the Shug's UI is one-off only.

3. Among all the classes, the Warlord is tied with the Conq at 3rd place for 140 HP pool, with only Shug(160) and Lawb(150) being higher.


The Warlord side heavy, is just too good. Too much of an advantage in terms of damage-trading,stacking a very heavy pressure-point upon the ALREADY high pressure caused by parry punishes, headbutt spams, and even dodge recoveries.


So I don't think it's unreasonable at all.

THEskarth
09-11-2017, 09:41 AM
Hello,

I play "For Honor" since release. Thank you for your really good summary and your feedback. Your text meets the "State of the Game" better than any other I've read before.

I agree 100% with these statements.

I really hope the developers take this text quickly to their hearts!

Jab_Jab_Wins
09-11-2017, 10:11 AM
I mostly agree with the OP. When I saw the nerfs for the first time I panicked, but then after playing some games as WL it's not that bad. The damage nerf is the one that I think is too severe

Netcode_err_404
09-11-2017, 12:00 PM
People is too used to the old WL.


And how can I blame them ? 8 months to nerf him. LOL.