PDA

View Full Version : Are you Carrier Qualified?



Flydutch
08-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Posted as reply, but this is more of a request towards the devellop team;

PF would really be a step-Up in realism and play, If in the Naval Pilots Campaigns you would start were the real pilots started in flight school Earn your Wings before you are going to war!

Especialy with carrier operations it will be very welcome as well satisfiyng, to become Carrier Qualified in a step by step training.Instead of beeing 'Trown in to the Deep End' (Combat)with out proper training. Decklandings might become very frustrating (Can you picture crashing 10 times after a succesful and long mission!)
Even the real Quallified Naval Pilots made a lot of chrashes!
As I am reading a day by day Book by a Dutch Naval pilot who Fought in the attacks on the Tirpitz and the struggle towards Japan, being part of the Royal Navy's 1840 Naval Fleet squadron (Fliyng Helcats)
He remarks that a day without a Carrier-Deck Chrash was a rare one! (a lot of A/C ended up in the cable barrier or into the Catwalk)
If not fliyng oprational they would be fliyng practice take off and landings as the skill seem to wear off quikly when not fliyng for some time.
when fliyng wasn't possible they would study enemy recognition material both film and plans of Aircraft and Shipping (A lot of Friendly fire incidents took place in the Pacific War)
Or they would do target practice by shooting at target sleeves pulled by A/C or the Carier itself (on the water) also with un-used rockets on smoke markers trown in the water After several accidents happend with rockets that released when Hitting the deck on landing!

I have played a third party historic Barbarossa Campaign (For IL-2)wich was so much better over the excisting Campaigns, Because it started out with a lot of training mission and transfer flight towards the battle front airbase. Finaly at the combat zone you really felt confident but realisticly you would fly missions in wich you would not encounter enemy aircraft Combat Pilots Have generaly much more fliyng hours without enemy engagements then with enemy's.

So please Start Campaigns with proper traing missions,

For naval Ops after earning your Pilot- Wings Start Training from landbased landingstrips mimicking carrier decks,
then the Large lake training carrier,
skip bombing dive bombing gunnery practice,
Air combat skills like The Tach weave, or the Lufbery Cirkle.
Anti shipping techniques like SkipBombing and mast head attacks or torpedo launches.
Practicing while on your way towards battlezones to form a proper team spirit!
Ofcourse for people who just want to be trown into the deep, their should be the option of skipping training or toggle featured unenventful missions (Missions with out enemy contact).

[This message was edited by Flydutch on Mon August 23 2004 at 09:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by Flydutch on Tue August 24 2004 at 01:46 AM.]

Flydutch
08-23-2004, 10:18 AM
Posted as reply, but this is more of a request towards the devellop team;

PF would really be a step-Up in realism and play, If in the Naval Pilots Campaigns you would start were the real pilots started in flight school Earn your Wings before you are going to war!

Especialy with carrier operations it will be very welcome as well satisfiyng, to become Carrier Qualified in a step by step training.Instead of beeing 'Trown in to the Deep End' (Combat)with out proper training. Decklandings might become very frustrating (Can you picture crashing 10 times after a succesful and long mission!)
Even the real Quallified Naval Pilots made a lot of chrashes!
As I am reading a day by day Book by a Dutch Naval pilot who Fought in the attacks on the Tirpitz and the struggle towards Japan, being part of the Royal Navy's 1840 Naval Fleet squadron (Fliyng Helcats)
He remarks that a day without a Carrier-Deck Chrash was a rare one! (a lot of A/C ended up in the cable barrier or into the Catwalk)
If not fliyng oprational they would be fliyng practice take off and landings as the skill seem to wear off quikly when not fliyng for some time.
when fliyng wasn't possible they would study enemy recognition material both film and plans of Aircraft and Shipping (A lot of Friendly fire incidents took place in the Pacific War)
Or they would do target practice by shooting at target sleeves pulled by A/C or the Carier itself (on the water) also with un-used rockets on smoke markers trown in the water After several accidents happend with rockets that released when Hitting the deck on landing!

I have played a third party historic Barbarossa Campaign (For IL-2)wich was so much better over the excisting Campaigns, Because it started out with a lot of training mission and transfer flight towards the battle front airbase. Finaly at the combat zone you really felt confident but realisticly you would fly missions in wich you would not encounter enemy aircraft Combat Pilots Have generaly much more fliyng hours without enemy engagements then with enemy's.

So please Start Campaigns with proper traing missions,

For naval Ops after earning your Pilot- Wings Start Training from landbased landingstrips mimicking carrier decks,
then the Large lake training carrier,
skip bombing dive bombing gunnery practice,
Air combat skills like The Tach weave, or the Lufbery Cirkle.
Anti shipping techniques like SkipBombing and mast head attacks or torpedo launches.
Practicing while on your way towards battlezones to form a proper team spirit!
Ofcourse for people who just want to be trown into the deep, their should be the option of skipping training or toggle featured unenventful missions (Missions with out enemy contact).

[This message was edited by Flydutch on Mon August 23 2004 at 09:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by Flydutch on Tue August 24 2004 at 01:46 AM.]

VMF-213_Frosty
08-23-2004, 10:39 AM
As far as my squadron is concerned, before we start any type of carrier ops for PF, each one of my members will be "carrier" qualified. Meaning they will have to take off and successfully land on a carrier ingame 8 times (of which I believe was the historical requirement and is still that way today, correct me if Im wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) As of now my XO created a simulated carrier deck that we are using for training.

VMF-213 (http://www.clantoolz.com/vmf213/forum/sitenews.asp)
http://img43.exs.cx/img43/5706/FrostySig.jpg

Somebody said that carrier pilots were the best in the world, and they must be or there wouldn't be any of them left alive.

" Ernie Pyle

T_O_A_D
08-23-2004, 10:56 AM
I was in CFS LOL

And when I moved to IL2 I always try to land on the front edge of all airstips. Pretending it is the cables.

Even so, I can only imagine PF being much more difficult. And I'm very excited to get it on with it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Shifty101
08-23-2004, 11:33 AM
I'm happy with my landing if I'm in one piece and stopped by the end of the runway so I'm going to have to say no, I am definatly not carrier qualified http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt

Bikewer
08-23-2004, 12:36 PM
Hehe- spent many hours learning to land on the Ark Royal with various CFS aircraft.

I certainly don't like the idea, any more than I like "unlocking" racecars in racing games.

It's a sim, gimmie the aircraft and point me at the carrier. I'll figure it out.

BSS_Vidar
08-23-2004, 01:59 PM
Am I carrier Qualed? Well, not anymore... But I use to be!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
To get qualed for the boat in the real world, hours and hours of flight time were spent in the FCLP pattern (Field Carrier Landing Practice) way before you ever saw the @$$-end of the boat. Everything from the carrier brake pattern, to establishing interval in the pattern, to buddy approaches were paractice before going "feet wet".
Once pilots are ready to go to the boat, they get both day and nite qualed. If I remember right it was a minimum of 6 day traps and 3 night traps, but we usually got to bag more. The first 2 days underway were slated to get all pilots on board and carrier qualed. The qual only lasted about 3 months after your last arrested landing which is when a re-qual is required.
The further I get from my retirement day, the more these numbers fade away into lost memories http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

BSS_Vidar

T_O_A_D
08-23-2004, 02:13 PM
S! BSS_Vidar

Before it all fades away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Could we get you to text out the Overhead break,landing,and tower coms, used in the landing and take off procedure.

I've got the basic idea, but it would be nice to read and have from, a real lifer.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

VFA-195 Snacky
08-23-2004, 03:29 PM
I miss the boat. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I miss the noise, the smell. I miss cat shots and traps (ok maybe not traps It's pretty dark in the back and with no visual cues pretty scary as well) and I miss midrats with sliders and bug juice. sigh

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

II JG2_Oesau
08-23-2004, 05:09 PM
T_O_A_D

Check out this site for info on CQ:

http://www.blacksheep214.com/cq/cq.htm

initjust
08-23-2004, 07:05 PM
I already posted this in a different thread but you may find some useful info in a document posted at Sim-Outhouse.

Go to the CFS Add-ons/CFS2/Utilities page at the Outhouse and download the VF15 Carrier Ops Manual. There are two verisons. A Word doc and a PDF version (the PDF is much larger than the Word doc).

It is a fairly detailed document describing several facets of carrier ops.

Obviously it is written for CFS2 but if you don't have an adverse reaction to learning from something created for CFS2 you just might find some valuable stuff in that manual.

BSS_Vidar
08-23-2004, 08:28 PM
Eh, I wrote that manual when it was fresh in my mind. It was so fresh, I was still in the Navy flying off Enterprise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
The Blacksheep CQ/Formation Flying guide is reference directly from the U.S. Navy's CV NATOPS manual. The only changes I made was to compensate for straight deck ops vis angle deck ops.

BSS_Vidar

huggy87
08-23-2004, 10:02 PM
If you need anything let me know. It is all a little too fresh in my mind. At least I have easy access to a CV Natops. Vidar, tomorrow I have a 0600 brief and then I have ODO until 1815. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif I bet you don't miss those days in your retirement.

T_O_A_D
08-23-2004, 10:22 PM
Cool thanks for the link! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif And to the author S!
I question is there a way to download BSS_Vidar book so it can be printed out?

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Mon August 23 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

BSS_Vidar
08-23-2004, 10:47 PM
Well Toad,
Sry M8. My OpsO put the CQ/Form Guide in our site as a one-page-at-a-time viewable, but you can click on the little save icon that pops up at the upper left corner of each page individually and save/print it that way. A royal pain I know, but at least you can get it on to your HD and print it out at will. Make sure you print out the pattern reference screenshots too. They'll help you see where the pattern positions are both in the cockpit and outside the plane. If you want tactics, however, my Tactics Guide is downloadable. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
The more people we get on board with flying proper carrier ops, the more fun we'll have without firing a single shot in anger. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The Blacksheep and VF-2 get into a CQ mode, the next thing we knew HOURS had flown by and we'd had a blast.

BSS_Vidar

Flydutch
08-24-2004, 02:58 AM
Interesting, whe seem to have some people who were Carrier Qualified in realife!

What year were you 'Qualed' if I may Ask?

Do you think there is a lot of diference between WWII Carrier Landings and Modern day ones?

For example I read that in WWII the Pneumatic Catapults were used mainly to start the front most A/C on the Deck becuase of their short take off space, as soon as takeoff on engine power was possible they would do this becuase it saved valueble time over the Catapult launches. The Catapult was also used when there was just a low Head wind speed over the deck.

Jetdoc_5th
08-24-2004, 07:19 AM
Yes we are have several Pitols that are CQ and are chomping at the bit rady to go and do battle with the enemy

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_themes/soar/images/logo.jpg

T_O_A_D
08-24-2004, 07:52 AM
RGR Thanks!

We should all be doing it the samefor sure and this will help alot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Ak9779
08-24-2004, 12:54 PM
heheh.. My old man used to drive S-3's off carriers... *glances as Snacky's sig* and one day he's over at my place and I'm showing off some of my sims, and he asks, "Hey, can you do carrier landings in these things?" And I say yeah, but I haven't really tried it. So we fire up CFS2, and he jumps behind the joystick and gives it a go. I explain to him that these aren't jets like he was used to. (To soften the blow to his ego in case he screws up, since he'd been flying a desk since retirement.)
He nails it on the second pass.
So now it's my turn. I'd only played CFS for long enough to realize it wasn't really my cup of tea, but I doggedly make my attempts at landing, with predictably non-stellar results. I do manage to FINALLY stop on the deck...But it was only because I'd forgotten to put my wheels down, and belly landed by accident. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ah well. I expect it'lol be the first thing I start on once I've got PF installed...

Later,
Ak

----------------
MACHINE GUN : JAMMED
FUEL TANK: LEAK
ENGINE: ON FIRE
PILOT: WOUNDED
...Yeah, it's gonna be one of those days...

VF-17_Jolly
08-24-2004, 03:10 PM
I am very proficent at the controlled crash...
and the uncontrolled crash for that matter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.skyknights.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jolly.jpg

TonyPiech
08-24-2004, 03:20 PM
It would be nice to get a Demo so we can practice carrier landings before the official release date of this Sim. Oh well, we can only hope -- but if generating a Demo delays the release date, forget about the Demo.

9th_Spitin
08-24-2004, 03:27 PM
I was very good at carrier landings in CFS2, but it has been over 1 year since I have done it. We would hop in with BSS_Vidar and his crew , get on comms and practice the carrier pattern landings. Learned alot from the BSS , I just hope I can remember half of it come October. It will be nice in PF's with the realistic collision bubble, unlike CFS2, get somewhat near another aircraft and you would blow up.

S~

http://flyingknights.lordsofwar.com
http://www.lordsofwar.com/public_uploads/Bloodfist/spitinfinalsig.jpg

VFA-195 Snacky
08-24-2004, 04:38 PM
I hope there is a LSO or Vulchers row view in the sim so I can sit and watch all you rookies auger in and hit the fantail.lol
J/K of course, but an LSO view or Vulchers row view would be nice.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

Fliger747
08-24-2004, 04:43 PM
Every simulation varies a lot in it's 'flying qualities'. So even for the guys that are pretty 'hot' deck landing in CFS2, there will be a transition and many things that are just plain different.

But the general principals apply, so it's not wasted practice!

Been out making some 'find the ship' missions flying calculated speeds, courses and times. What I forgot to being on the present 'trip' is my Pacific Charts with all of the isogonic lines, which give the current magnetic deviation from true North! Depending on where you are it can be up to nearly 30 deg different, and the compasses are MAGNETIC in CFS2! (as they should be).

initjust
08-24-2004, 06:07 PM
Fliger,

We spent a lot of time determining how magnetic deviation is modeled in CFS2.

If you are interested in what we came up with let me know and I'll send it to you. Magnetic Deviation in CFS2 does not match current day values. We have a chart showing AoD for all CFS2 stock air fields and most (if not all) Mask Rider bases.

BSS_Vidar
08-24-2004, 07:16 PM
I flew in S-3A/B's for most of my career, and have some Hornet time through VFA-106 and Strike U in Falon Nevada. 526 career arrested landings on seven different carriers.
As for the differences in CV ops from WWII vs today. The patterns are basicly the same, but the speeds are significanly faster. F-4's rolled in on the ball at 150-160 kts! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
The technology has changed as well. The LSO's duties have changed quite a bit. While they are still nic-named "Paddels". they don't use'em any more. The Fresnel Lens (aka Ball) system is used with a 3 - 3.5 degree glideslope. You have to keep the yellow ball between the green datum lights to stay on glideslop. Kinda looks like this:

(G)(G)(G)(G)(G) (Y) (G)(G)(G)(G)(G) You're on glide path

The yellow ball floats above and below the green datum lights as you go hi or low on glideslope.

Dat's modern CV ops in a nutshell folks.

S!

BSS_Vidar

[This message was edited by BSS_Vidar on Tue August 24 2004 at 06:25 PM.]

Fliger747
08-24-2004, 10:45 PM
Thanks for the heads up on magnetic declination in CFS2! I am aware that the isogonic lines 'drift' from year to year and had a suspicion that they might be using old values. Are they really using mid 1940's values? All of the data I have is current info from the Pacific navigation charts that we actually use, which are up to date with present values. Even data from the late 90's could be off by several degrees in many areas.

One can work backwards into it using the 'map' feature to determine the local deviation (approximatly), as it's courses are true.

Good work, would like to see it!

initjust
08-24-2004, 11:50 PM
The chart we have also details Lat/Lon and runway heading of each airstrip.

We also did some comparisions between current (2003) and 1944 AoD just to see what the difference was. It appears that MS did not use values from the mid 40s.

How shall I send the chart to you?

BlakJakOfSpades
08-25-2004, 10:37 PM
for carrier landings i've been flying janes f/a-18 and i must say its quite hard to get it just right without that guy yellin at u to wave off. very fun though, well thought id put that seeing how i haven't seen anyone else mention it, what are your guy's opinions on its realistic...ness, realisticity....uhhh how real it is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v344/BlakJakofSpades/sig.jpg
You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.
Jeannette Rankin (1880 - 1973)

VFA-195 Snacky
08-25-2004, 11:31 PM
JFA18 is probably the best representation that your going to find on the PC. It lacks some of the deck traffic and air traffic that you would find around the boat (unless you get a few peeps in MP), but overall it does a pretty good job.
I think I miss CQ in Janes F18 the most, but that's jets and Props are a whole different animal. Add night ops and bad weather then your having a good time.lol

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

Fliger747
08-26-2004, 12:50 AM
Send chart to tfalley@aol.com!

Thanks!

initjust
08-26-2004, 06:24 AM
Fliger,

Check your email.

I don't know how much navigating you do in CFS2 but we also have a detailed IAS/TAS breakdown for CFS2 for an ISA 'Standard' Day, Pacific 'Normal' Day and 'Hot Humid' Day from SL to 30k. Don't know if you have any interest in this but if you do I will be happy to send it to you.

michapma
08-26-2004, 07:10 AM
The timing of this thread is great. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just yesterday getting out of the shower I was thinking that I wanted to give help guides for Pacific Fighters a higher priority than updating the IL-2 guide for FB (a fairly monumental task time wise). Obviously, carrier landings will be one of the biggest and most exciting challenges for new pilots in PF. This document Vidar made will be great preparation for me to help get a manual out not too awfully long after the release of PF.

What I'm thinking now is something similar in style to a pilot's notes handbook. It should have basic diagrams and explanations of procedures (relevant to the sim). One for American and one for Japanese pilots (probably navy in both cases). They should be short and to the point.

I'm also considering making a short early-war training campaign for American and for Japanese pilots. I don't know what trainer aircraft we might be able to use, but getting pilots trained first over land, then following up with gunnery practice and eventually to training for carrier qualification.

What could be cool would be to coordinate the training handbooks with a training campaign. You could read the handbook through, and then fly a specially designed mission to work on one section of the handbook. One for field take-off and landing, one for gunnery, bombing, cross-wind landing (if the weather permits), engine management, navigation, night flying, etc., on up to carrier ops. Maybe training tracks could even be made for download to demonstrate.

Sound like fun?

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

GR142_Astro
08-26-2004, 07:56 PM
Yes, we do seem to have a good number of current and retired Navy men. My wingman is ret. Navy and flew mainly F4's / F14's. He's a great stick but I'm gonna razz him endlessly if he doesn't trap on his first try. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My last sim was F18:KOREA and I got proficient at day and night carrier ops. However, I have my doubts about the fidelity of the flight models in that sim, so this should be interesting.

http://members.cox.net/kinetic/SigImages/LockheedLightningMed.jpg

____________________________

"If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limosine anyway." ~TheClash~

Bluedog72
08-27-2004, 05:23 PM
You could allways download Aces High from www.hitechcreations.com (http://www.hitechcreations.com) and fire up a Hog, Hellkitty, Zeke, Val or whatever and practice traps untill you are blue in the face.

BSS_Vidar
08-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Rgr dat Snacky,
Jane's F-18's carrier ops and comms are so realistic, they gave me flashbacks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Just wish they could come out with an improved version with up-to-date graphics and control inputs for us maniacs with everything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

BSS_Vidar

BlakJakOfSpades
08-29-2004, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Vidar:
Rgr dat Snacky,
Jane's F-18's carrier ops and comms are so realistic, they gave me flashbacks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Just wish they could come out with an improved version with up-to-date graphics and control inputs for us maniacs with everything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

BSS_Vidar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

have u checked out the team super hornet add ons? its a 3rd party thing that allows you to run in higher resolutions, had updated graphics on many of the objects and such, and they are soon going to release a weapons fix to make the weapons behave more realistically heres there site http://tsh.war-fighters.net/ its not 100% user friendly but i think u can figure it out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/BlakJakofSpades/sig2.jpg

heywooood
08-29-2004, 04:27 PM
wouldnt it be great if WE could press &gt;shift+F8&lt; and Be the LSO?... you know - use the arrow keys to guide the next pilot down to the cut or waive off point with a fixed camera position facing aft right where the LSO would be standing. Man I would send Vidar and Fliger and Wuaf baddie around and around 'til they were on vapors...and then waive 'em off again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

heywooood
08-29-2004, 06:21 PM
yeah...I'd just make them fellers go 'round and around like merry-go-round. hehehee. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Roast
08-30-2004, 04:02 AM
Some proper training missions are a very good idea, Flydutch, although I - ofcourse - don't need it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Roast

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2003/02/images_deck_landings/g12906_small.jpg