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Illyrian_King
09-09-2017, 01:05 PM
Hey!

To jump right into it ... from my sight, minions are a bit ridiculous now :rolleyes:

Of course we play the heroes, who are tremendously badass, but killing 50 minions (5 per hit ... or better ZA :cool:) without even getting a deeper scratch is just a bit to much or not?

I don't want the minions even being near to equal to a hero, but now you stand right into 10 of them and you don't even feel it!

Just 2 days ago I showed a friend of mine some Dominion footage and he liked it ... but when he saw that Kensei chopping through 5 mininons per hit (with locked on hits), he wildly started to laugh ^^

I would really like the feeling of being joined by an "Army" during my Dominion matches, and maybe also later in future game modes.


Here my concrete suggestions:

1) Increase the damage to 200% (even that would barely be sensable)
2) Make them imune to locked on hits and ESPECIALLY ZONEATTACKS by using their shields to block, so we really would need to use that tasty minion kill animations.

Two simple things that would suffice from my point of view.

Know we chop through them like paper and we don't get any backup from them!

CandleInTheDark
09-09-2017, 01:40 PM
Other than immunity to zone attack (clearing the space around you is pretty much what they are for, they just came to be spammed 1v1 and with the stamina cost you can't do too many at once) I agree it would be interesting,I certainly don't think they should be pushovers just letting you through because you walk towards them.

Illyrian_King
09-09-2017, 02:02 PM
Other than immunity to zone attack (clearing the space around you is pretty much what they are for, they just came to be spammed 1v1 and with the stamina cost you can't do too many at once) I agree it would be interesting,I certainly don't think they should be pushovers just letting you through because you walk towards them.

Well with some zones (like centurion, shinobi, conq, lawbringer, etc) clear out simply way too much from my point of view ... also using lock on attacks on them gives you 3-4 kills if you choose the right class and do it "well".
But except of some classes you are right with the ZA.
Maybe limiting it to 4 minions pro ZA or giving it a 30% chance to be blocked by the minion would be fine.

They are cannon fodder and i agree with it, but they are too much cannon-fodderish :rolleyes:

mrmistark
09-09-2017, 05:09 PM
Just make them all a bunch of captains instead? not a pushover and can do real damage but easy to kill. You'd get the 5 points each time etc. I personally don't have a problem with the minions honestly, but I definitely think their own numbers (and if changed to captains health too) should account for something. It always annoyed me when 2 enemy bots kept the middle ground neutral half the match when my team has a whole army. Minions should fight amongst themselves. 1v1 minion goes no where and leaves it mutual. 2v1 is a kill or at least a push back. When the zone is ready for taking from that team it should flash white in either teams like any other zone and you must go there to capture it. Won't capture itself still but numbers will be meaningful. If numbers go equal on both sides regardless of where the minions are placement wise both armies return to neutral in the middle. Just my thoughts.

SenBotsu893
09-09-2017, 08:58 PM
lol one guy wants to nerf them the other wants to buff them.

i think they are fine how they are.
remember they can hinder your opponent. and even throw off their guard.

bmason1000
09-09-2017, 09:51 PM
What if they just added a captain or two? There's still minion fodder, but there's an actual fight to be had in there somewhere and captains WILL block an attack. The zone now presents some kind of challange and is a touch more dangerous without your hero losing that heroic monster status. Also, it's sort of insane those soldiers are there with zero leadership present haha.

Helnekromancer
09-09-2017, 10:54 PM
Minions are fine the way they are, weeds that sometimes need to be picked. It's just basic wave clearing. It's bad enough that the point can flip even though no one touches it. You can just finish clearing the point and gain the advantage for your team, go away for 20secs and your minions are getting pushed off, not because of an enemy Hero came along just the game's system of giving the enemy team helping hand because everyone else is worried about spawn killing. Have you ever fought someone inside their minions? You can't block, they chip you, and in most cases can kill you if you aren't paying attention.

It's bad enough that no one gives a crap about this point and ignore imagine if they bump the damage and defense of the minions so now it's bot even worth going to. Body Count used to be able make playing on this point worth it, but since they nerfed it, it barely does nothing, and now you have to kill way more to get out the value. Do you think someone would waste that much time light attacking 40+ minions while also getting chunked by them for no reason, and if an enemy hero comes along and hit you while your trying to clear now you're ****ed.

I talked about improving the soldier flag a while back by having captains spawn on it after you capture it. That can cleave through minions for you so you aren't forced to stay on it for most of the game and help your team. Meaning that enemy Hero is going to have to go over their and kill the capatain and recapture the point, making the flag have more importance in the overall scheme the the game mode. Because now it's killing minions until you feel comfortable to leave it alone for 10secs before it all goes to **** because the game knows no one gives to ****s about this point so the minions will do it for you.

UbiJurassic
09-09-2017, 11:59 PM
It would definitely be an interesting, potential addition. Currently, minions only start to deal real damage if you dive head first into a large group. (I've made the very noob-like mistake of dying to them more than once). However, it would be cool to see them with more offensive and defensive options. I'll certainly forward the suggestion, Illyrian_King.

Rikuto01.tv
09-10-2017, 12:05 AM
Only changes I would make are to mix in a couple captains once the spawn waves start getting intense.

It would also be interesting to see objectives besides the primary lane spawn some archer support, similar to how they are handled in the single player campaign.

Illyrian_King
09-10-2017, 12:07 AM
Minions are fine the way they are, weeds that sometimes need to be picked. It's just basic wave clearing. It's bad enough that the point can flip even though no one touches it. You can just finish clearing the point and gain the advantage for your team, go away for 20secs and your minions are getting pushed off, not because of an enemy Hero came along just the game's system of giving the enemy team helping hand because everyone else is worried about spawn killing. Have you ever fought someone inside their minions? You can't block, they chip you, and in most cases can kill you if you aren't paying attention.

It's bad enough that no one gives a crap about this point and ignore imagine if they bump the damage and defense of the minions so now it's bot even worth going to. Body Count used to be able make playing on this point worth it, but since they nerfed it, it barely does nothing, and now you have to kill way more to get out the value. Do you think someone would waste that much time light attacking 40+ minions while also getting chunked by them for no reason, and if an enemy hero comes along and hit you while your trying to clear now you're ****ed.

I talked about improving the soldier flag a while back by having captains spawn on it after you capture it. That can cleave through minions for you so you aren't forced to stay on it for most of the game and help your team. Meaning that enemy Hero is going to have to go over their and kill the capatain and recapture the point, making the flag have more importance in the overall scheme the the game mode. Because now it's killing minions until you feel comfortable to leave it alone for 10secs before it all goes to **** because the game knows no one gives to ****s about this point so the minions will do it for you.

The point of adding captains is a thing I proposed often in the forum ^^

But according to the minions: I am not asking to make them strong. I just find it ridiculous to watch how massive we can butch through them!
Honstly wouldn't it be cool to be at least a bit supported by an army?
I simply don't see the soldiers as a health pick up, but as a very very weak helpster who should have some potential in a group of them!
With the killing animations we slice them quickly enough, but now it's escalated from my point of view.
If somebody attacks you in the middle during slicing minions it's your job to keep an eye out for them.
As I said, when I showed that footage to a friend and even friends before him and they where impressed by the game, but they are laughed or found it strange how easy you kill dozens of "soldiers" without losing a healthbar.
They see the game from another more realish perspective (i know the game isn't 100% realistic or just close to that).
Let the minions play an a bit more serious role ^^

AkenoKobayashi
09-10-2017, 12:32 AM
Are you talking about the soldiers or the captains? The soldiers aren't meant to be a major threat unless you are at low health. Or in my case, in combat with an enemy and the game decides that this particular instant is when the minion's attack will stagger and disrupt your move. Throwing various captains in there, as suggested in another post, is really all you can do to bolster the threat of the minions.

Illyrian_King
09-10-2017, 11:26 AM
Are you talking about the soldiers or the captains? The soldiers aren't meant to be a major threat unless you are at low health. Or in my case, in combat with an enemy and the game decides that this particular instant is when the minion's attack will stagger and disrupt your move. Throwing various captains in there, as suggested in another post, is really all you can do to bolster the threat of the minions.

As I said, I also don't mean to make minions strong. Just not that weak like they are now. Doubling their damage still does nothing, and the obligation to use minion kill animations lets you still wreck them, but maybe it makes you think about not to run into them super-unrealistically.
It is an army wtf?
It has never happened in hirstory that a single warrior chopped 60 soldiers without a scratch in melee. It looks ridiculous now!

The_B0G_
09-10-2017, 02:32 PM
As I said, I also don't mean to make minions strong. Just not that weak like they are now. Doubling their damage still does nothing, and the obligation to use minion kill animations lets you still wreck them, but maybe it makes you think about not to run into them super-unrealistically.
It is an army wtf?
It has never happened in hirstory that a single warrior chopped 60 soldiers without a scratch in melee. It looks ridiculous now!

A highly trained warrior with the best equipment at his disposal Vs a bunch of farmers that had a few weeks of training and basic weapons and armor... I'd say it's entirely possible for a warrior to kill many conscripted soldiers without a scratch.

Good chainmail was basically impenetrable, stack some plate steel on that and you definitely could finish battles without a scratch.

You're supposed to support the soldiers, they shouldn't get kills without you there. They are just meant to slow down the enemy for a short time.

coldguy111
09-10-2017, 03:37 PM
Honestly I agree with sentiment that the minions are too weak. It just looks bad and way too cartoonish imo when a hero wipes 10 out with one swing. Yes they should be weak but not that weak. Honestly I would increase their damage to 5, decrease their number or density, increase their size add more variety in looks and finally rebuff body count to give vanguards their niche in minion slaying. The zone should be used as means to prevent the minions from surrounding you while not killing them. Using the specific kill animations to deal with them. This makes it that the minions are actual soldiers rather than a minor inconvenience. By increasing the difficulty of the b point it should give 2 points if held.

Illyrian_King
09-10-2017, 04:06 PM
A highly trained warrior with the best equipment at his disposal Vs a bunch of farmers that had a few weeks of training and basic weapons and armor... I'd say it's entirely possible for a warrior to kill many conscripted soldiers without a scratch.

Good chainmail was basically impenetrable, stack some plate steel on that and you definitely could finish battles without a scratch.

You're supposed to support the soldiers, they shouldn't get kills without you there. They are just meant to slow down the enemy for a short time.

But not like now, where you just dive in and carnage everything around you, without geting hammered just by the pure blunt damage of 5 soldiers beating on you at the same time! Also the farmers/peasant you talk about also wear chainmail with metal plates (knight version) ... how should they be butchered then according to your statement?



Honestly I agree with sentiment that the minions are too weak. It just looks bad and way too cartoonish imo when a hero wipes 10 out with one swing. Yes they should be weak but not that weak. Honestly I would increase their damage to 5, decrease their number or density, increase their size add more variety in looks and finally rebuff body count to give vanguards their niche in minion slaying. The zone should be used as means to prevent the minions from surrounding you while not killing them. Using the specific kill animations to deal with them. This makes it that the minions are actual soldiers rather than a minor inconvenience. By increasing the difficulty of the b point it should give 2 points if held.

Thanks!

kweassa1
09-10-2017, 04:14 PM
From a gameplay perspective, it's an idea that has merit because it differentiates the class role distinction a bit more clearly, as it proportionately increases the dangers and difficulties of non-vanguard, non-bodycount classes of clearing mid.

As it is, mid zone holds low tactical importance in general except the fact that it's usually a logistics hub for getting around, and usually the winning side of the fight that happens on captured zones (= more people alive) will simply clear it quickly in less than 30 seconds. Literally any class that has a reasonably good enough ZA or anti-minion attack motion can do it easily. If the general threat level of minions, their dangers are upgraded, then it means the class distinctions become very clear with each of the 3 base role of vanguard, heavy, assassin gaining more meaning.

(1) Vanguards, or certain heavies, hybrids with bodycount would be clearly more optimal in clearing the mid-zone than other classes, whereas heavies without bodycount would do a bit better but would still suffer larger health damage,. and assassins would generally want to steer clear of hordes of enemies.

(2) Heavies are already generally considered more optimal in holding zones, and they can also clear zones relatively easily without too much attrition in their HP level. If the dangers of midzones are increased, their range of multi-purpose roles would be adequately narrowed down. Same thing with assassins -- they would serve as ideal back-door zone stealers, gankers and supporters, but they would absolutely SUCK in clearing midzones if changes occured.

(3) If the distinctions between classes become more clear in such manner, perhaps people would actually start thinking about class selection in Dominion, and consciously try to balance out the numbers of heavies, assassins, vanguards and hybrids .. instead of just flock to whatever class they want. Think about other team games where people generally make it a habit of balancing out class roles and numbers in a game.. .like all the MOBA games or Overwatch. In those games, an imbalance in classes takes HEAVY impact on your game and generally will have very bad results for your team, so people naturally learn to balance classes and roles out.

The fact that people don't care about what classes they play in Dominion, generally means that the impact of classes are still very weak in For Honor's Dominion.

Illyrian_King
09-10-2017, 04:37 PM
From a gameplay perspective, it's an idea that has merit because it differentiates the class role distinction a bit more clearly, as it proportionately increases the dangers and difficulties of non-vanguard, non-bodycount classes of clearing mid.

As it is, mid zone holds low tactical importance in general except the fact that it's usually a logistics hub for getting around, and usually the winning side of the fight that happens on captured zones (= more people alive) will simply clear it quickly in less than 30 seconds. Literally any class that has a reasonably good enough ZA or anti-minion attack motion can do it easily. If the general threat level of minions, their dangers are upgraded, then it means the class distinctions become very clear with each of the 3 base role of vanguard, heavy, assassin gaining more meaning.

(1) Vanguards, or certain heavies, hybrids with bodycount would be clearly more optimal in clearing the mid-zone than other classes, whereas heavies without bodycount would do a bit better but would still suffer larger health damage,. and assassins would generally want to steer clear of hordes of enemies.

(2) Heavies are already generally considered more optimal in holding zones, and they can also clear zones relatively easily without too much attrition in their HP level. If the dangers of midzones are increased, their range of multi-purpose roles would be adequately narrowed down. Same thing with assassins -- they would serve as ideal back-door zone stealers, gankers and supporters, but they would absolutely SUCK in clearing midzones if changes occured.

(3) If the distinctions between classes become more clear in such manner, perhaps people would actually start thinking about class selection in Dominion, and consciously try to balance out the numbers of heavies, assassins, vanguards and hybrids .. instead of just flock to whatever class they want. Think about other team games where people generally make it a habit of balancing out class roles and numbers in a game.. .like all the MOBA games or Overwatch. In those games, an imbalance in classes takes HEAVY impact on your game and generally will have very bad results for your team, so people naturally learn to balance classes and roles out.

The fact that people don't care about what classes they play in Dominion, generally means that the impact of classes are still very weak in For Honor's Dominion.

Very interesting point!

I didn't think about that in this depth yet.

But as you said, it would increase the importance of choosing a proper hero, which I persoanlly find a good point.

The_B0G_
09-10-2017, 05:18 PM
But not like now, where you just dive in and carnage everything around you, without geting hammered just by the pure blunt damage of 5 soldiers beating on you at the same time! Also the farmers/peasant you talk about also wear chainmail with metal plates (knight version) ... how should they be butchered then according to your statement?

That's why I said good chainmail, chainmail was expensive and farmers wouldn't even be wearing it honestly, they'd have leather with small plates sewed in. I agree the soldiers do die very fast and this is unrealistic, 6 or 7 going down in one zone attack isn't realistic, but tons of things about this game aren't realistic.

Having minions do 5 damage per hit would melt people who fought around them. The best way to use minions is if you guard that zone with them and force people to fight among them. If they attack your minions you get a free hit, if they don't it's like having a constant bleed from attacks, they either attack you and you defend and they still take damage just from standing there or they have to leave.

Illyrian_King
09-10-2017, 06:50 PM
That's why I said good chainmail, chainmail was expensive and farmers wouldn't even be wearing it honestly, they'd have leather with small plates sewed in. I agree the soldiers do die very fast and this is unrealistic, 6 or 7 going down in one zone attack isn't realistic, but tons of things about this game aren't realistic.

Having minions do 5 damage per hit would melt people who fought around them. The best way to use minions is if you guard that zone with them and force people to fight among them. If they attack your minions you get a free hit, if they don't it's like having a constant bleed from attacks, they either attack you and you defend and they still take damage just from standing there or they have to leave.

Yeah some other things aren't realistic too, but this pops thorugh the ceiling.

Well ... if an enemy forces me to fight in a clutch of his minions, I always use a ZA to get 1-2 bars of health back :rolleyes:
Not even mentioning, that this counts 5-7points for my team.

If we where to use minion-kill-motions, we would kill them in a "realistic" (for a real badass hero) frequence, while getting damage x2, that is still very low, due to our great armor ^^
We would be glad to be back-uped by our own troops and an army-like feeling would come up.
For me, there could be still the ability to use ZA, but minions should have a reasonable chance to block it, so the number of kills goes down.

If we would still have archers in A and C (and this goes pretty far now ^^), they would also fire at B and offer some help, so every Zone would keep high importance ... and it would feel more like a real battle just btw.



@UbiJurassic pls give us a sign if you are still following.

ELDRIX_
09-10-2017, 09:48 PM
i think this is a troll monkaThink

MetalDevil19
09-10-2017, 09:58 PM
You know what bugs me the most? When people call them Minions.

psyminion
09-10-2017, 10:06 PM
I hope all the minions get to wear Halloween costumes of MINIONS wearing costumes of FH minions.

like this
http://www.lamarquezone.fr/images/Image/xtht25078d.jpg

the minion meta

on topic - the minions are child-sized compared to the Heroes and I like how easy they are to kill, but adding Captains to Do-minion is long overdue imo.

UbiNoty
09-10-2017, 10:54 PM
I hope all the minions get to wear Halloween costumes of MINIONS wearing costumes of FH minions.

like this
http://www.lamarquezone.fr/images/Image/xtht25078d.jpg

the minion meta

on topic - the minions are child-sized compared to the Heroes and I like how easy they are to kill, but adding Captains to Do-minion is long overdue imo.

Haha. I would be so down if they made this happen.

kweassa1
09-11-2017, 01:56 AM
A highly trained warrior with the best equipment at his disposal Vs a bunch of farmers that had a few weeks of training and basic weapons and armor... I'd say it's entirely possible for a warrior to kill many conscripted soldiers without a scratch.

Good chainmail was basically impenetrable, stack some plate steel on that and you definitely could finish battles without a scratch.

You're supposed to support the soldiers, they shouldn't get kills without you there. They are just meant to slow down the enemy for a short time.

Just for fun, in reality, usually the farmers win.

It depends on the size of the "bunch", but if you have as many conscripts as you see in Dominion, in reality, combat isn't a fantasy where a single swing knocks over 5~6 men at a time, not to mention no matter how heavily you are armored and protected from cuts, the pure kinetic force of the impact is still enough to incapacitate. Armor is there to lower the chances of strikes against you from being a fatal one, and in most cases it really does significantly lower that chance -- but armor's armor, not a force field.


So in reality, that's why usually heavily armored knights preferred two additional things: (1) a horse to ride on, and (2) an open space to wield that mobility. Add that in to the mix, and yes, a single well-armed knight on a horse has a incomparably higher chance of fighting against a band of lesser armed, lesser trained assailants.

Illyrian_King
09-11-2017, 12:44 PM
Just for fun, in reality, usually the farmers win.

It depends on the size of the "bunch", but if you have as many conscripts as you see in Dominion, in reality, combat isn't a fantasy where a single swing knocks over 5~6 men at a time, not to mention no matter how heavily you are armored and protected from cuts, the pure kinetic force of the impact is still enough to incapacitate. Armor is there to lower the chances of strikes against you from being a fatal one, and in most cases it really does significantly lower that chance -- but armor's armor, not a force field.


So in reality, that's why usually heavily armored knights preferred two additional things: (1) a horse to ride on, and (2) an open space to wield that mobility. Add that in to the mix, and yes, a single well-armed knight on a horse has a incomparably higher chance of fighting against a band of lesser armed, lesser trained assailants.

That's a nice one ^^

Camemberto
09-11-2017, 01:01 PM
I do agree to making the minions stringer, IF there is going to be less of them overall. It gets especially ridiculous in narrow zones like the "Temple Garden". They just stack up behind each other, it's really dumb to look at and no fun to plow through.

The_B0G_
09-11-2017, 01:47 PM
I'd rather them just add captains rather than making the soldiers deal more damage.

Illyrian_King
09-11-2017, 03:25 PM
I'd rather them just add captains rather than making the soldiers deal more damage.

I would like to see captains and even archers in Dominion.

But I would also like to get rid of this over-arteficial minion massacre x10 ...

The_B0G_
09-11-2017, 05:08 PM
I would like to see captains and even archers in Dominion.

But I would also like to get rid of this over-arteficial minion massacre x10 ...

It would be too much with all of that in a dominion though, getting GB'd by a captain while fighting a player in the middle as soldiers are hacking away with arrows raining down on you? Sounds like it'd be frustrating.

Illyrian_King
09-11-2017, 08:15 PM
It would be too much with all of that in a dominion though, getting GB'd by a captain while fighting a player in the middle as soldiers are hacking away with arrows raining down on you? Sounds like it'd be frustrating.

Well not really ... imagine the scenario:
You are back-uped by your army and a friendly captain (you don't fight alone at all)

You would fight for control over zone A and C to get some archers there, who fire at random targets in the centre (means there is a mini-minimal chance to get shoot - in the campaign we faced the pretty same and it wasn't OP by far)

Everything you might face to fight is also right beside you, helping you!

It is so fake to have just a minion clutch at B and that's it ... almost no bigger battle ever happened like this!

The_B0G_
09-11-2017, 08:35 PM
Well not really ... imagine the scenario:
You are back-uped by your army and a friendly captain (you don't fight alone at all)

You would fight for control over zone A and C to get some archers there, who fire at random targets in the centre (means there is a mini-minimal chance to get shoot - in the campaign we faced the pretty same and it wasn't OP by far)

Everything you might face to fight is also right beside you, helping you!

It is so fake to have just a minion clutch at B and that's it ... almost no bigger battle ever happened like this!

What your asking for is basically what people want in siege mode, and that would be awesome. If they could add all those things in that scenario I would be down for that. But just extra damage for soldiers I pass on.

DaLast_Samurai
09-11-2017, 08:51 PM
Think I'm alone here...

I hate the little buggers...

I want to just wave my hand like a Jedi and see all hundred of them fall down, give me the zone, and me move on, lol.

Illyrian_King
09-12-2017, 12:13 AM
What your asking for is basically what people want in siege mode, and that would be awesome. If they could add all those things in that scenario I would be down for that. But just extra damage for soldiers I pass on.

If we were to use only the minion motions a big part of my wish would become true ... eventhough I would welcome the extra damage with open arms ^^

But If Ubi brings out a Siege Mode one day, I really hope it includes Ram-Excort, Castle Capturing, etc.
This what I am talking about is just some Dominion Improvments (Improvments in my eyes :rolleyes:).