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XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:00 AM
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html

in case you havent seen it already!

Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear, give an ear!
Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
Your fautes I will proclaim,
Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear!
2. What is Right, and what is wrang, by the law, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang?
A short sword and a lang,
A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!
3. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
What makes heroic strife famed afar?
What makes heroic strife ?
To whet th' assassin's knife,
Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?
4. Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate!
Burns

<img src =http://www.unicef.ca/eng/unicef/lessons/peace/images/peace.gif>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:00 AM
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html

in case you havent seen it already!

Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear, give an ear!
Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
Your fautes I will proclaim,
Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear!
2. What is Right, and what is wrang, by the law, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang?
A short sword and a lang,
A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!
3. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
What makes heroic strife famed afar?
What makes heroic strife ?
To whet th' assassin's knife,
Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?
4. Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate!
Burns

<img src =http://www.unicef.ca/eng/unicef/lessons/peace/images/peace.gif>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:28 AM
Found this quote interesting:

"The fighting in the air over the eastern front was conducted on such an enormous scale, in terms of the aircraft lost in combat, that it dwarfed events in both the Pacific and European theatre of operations. A conservative estimate of the number of Soviet aircraft lost exceeds seventy thousand, and may have been as high as eighty thousand aircraft! By way of contrast, the combined war losses of USAAF and RAF aircraft was in the order of forty thousand. You get an impression of the scale and intensity of the air combat, when you consider that the total British and American aircraft losses for the entire war was only about 50% of the Soviet aircraft losses over the Eastern front."

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:45 AM
bump,
This is an informative & wll thought out article, so too few people will read it & even fewer will stop whining because of it.

Or maybe most people are quite sensible & only a few are loud & silly!

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:03 AM
Good read. He's off on the speed of the G10 though. It's much faster than what he claims.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/hartm1-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:05 AM
Part of the charm of the game IMO. Im pretty sure i can make the G10 go a bit faster than that too, at least for a short while.

Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear, give an ear!
Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
Your fautes I will proclaim,
Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear!
2. What is Right, and what is wrang, by the law, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang?
A short sword and a lang,
A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!
3. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
What makes heroic strife famed afar?
What makes heroic strife ?
To whet th' assassin's knife,
Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?
4. Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate!
Burns

<img src =http://www.unicef.ca/eng/unicef/lessons/peace/images/peace.gif>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:31 AM
Thanks Samba,
That was a very good article. Beyond raw performance, it takes patience to kill another person in a plane, something a flight sim can deliver on if you have it to begin with.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:40 AM
WTE_Galway something like 30k to 40k were planes destroyed on the ground, i need to look it up but its was an amazing amount of planes destroyed on the ground, lack of fuel, unservicable ac etc

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:44 AM
2000 Russian planes destroyed on the ground just in the first day IIRC.

Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear, give an ear!
Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
Your fautes I will proclaim,
Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear!
2. What is Right, and what is wrang, by the law, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang?
A short sword and a lang,
A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!
3. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
What makes heroic strife famed afar?
What makes heroic strife ?
To whet th' assassin's knife,
Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?
4. Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate!
Burns

<img src =http://www.unicef.ca/eng/unicef/lessons/peace/images/peace.gif>

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:55 AM
Salute

Wrong on speed of 109G10, much faster than the listed speed at high altitude. Also doesn't mention superior climbrate of the G10.

If the G10 pilot follows what the Luftwaffe recommendations are, ie. don't engage under 5,000 ft and use boom and zoom tactics, and always have an altitude advantage before engaging, then he would do fine versus the La-5N.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:55 AM
that article brings into perspective the fact that computers are very limited and that full real with no icons and in cockpit only view is not REAL. he states that precisely and to make up for it you need icons etc to come close to real life. Hopefully those full real rubes will read this

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 05:55 AM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute
-
- -
- If the G10 pilot follows what the Luftwaffe
- recommendations are, ie. don't engage under 5,000 ft
- and use boom and zoom tactics, and always have an
- altitude advantage before engaging, then he would do
- fine versus the La-5N.
-
-

And if he doesn't engage below 5000ft then how is he supposed to stop the IL2's from chewing up the German infantry & armor ? These are the kind of mission objectives & tactical considerations that don't come into play in many on-line dogfights, but did in the war. Seems like the game allows the German pilots to make the most out of thier equipment. !09 pilots aren't forced to engage unles it's an online war or something. Which is fine i'm not complaining, just one more way this game is different to "Real life" Sometimes folks seem to forget, but it's nice to see so many people who share this interest in old warbirds.

S!

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:07 AM
Well, Germans could bounce the low IL~2s from 5000 *ahem* feet," and their escorts may be forced by politician soldiers to fly low with them--like Goering ordered 109s to fly next to bombers.

This caught me...

--Operational factors, such as the need to cruise at
--economic speeds to conserve fuel, or at the altitudes
--required to support ground troops or bombers.

Pokryshkin mentioned how they made the fighters fly low over the ground troops, to give them inspiration. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif But they got bounced all the time and they still would not let the pilots fly high. So, they came up with the idea of huge looping turns, flying high and coming down for the troops, then climbing away again. This compromise was acceptable to the politician generals.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 04:15 PM
It's a shame the Jacobites didn't have any Spitfires at Culloden !!!


I
Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led,
Welcome to your gory bed
Or to victorie!
II
Now's the day, and now's the hour;
See the front o' battle lour,
See approach proud Edward's power--
Chains and slaverie!
III
Wha will be a traitor knave?
Wha can fill a coward's grave?
Wha sae base as be a slave?--
Let him turn, and flee!
IV
Wha for Scotland's King and Law
Freedom's sword will strongly draw,
Freeman stand or freeman fa',
Let him follow me!
V
By Oppression's woes and pains,
By your sons in servile chains,
We will drain our dearest veins
But they shall be free!
VI
Lay the proud usurpers low!
Tyrants fall in every foe!
Liberty's in every blow!
Let us do, or die!

Burns.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:47 PM
How does a fighter at 5000 ft bounce ground attack aircraft that are flying at 500 ft without coming down to the deck? If you mean making one diving attack and than zoom climbing back up, the escorts will still have a chance to engage as well as the attackers losing some of their advantage both in suprise and energy. The Russians did a good job of forcing the LW fighters to come down and fight on the VVS terms. From the way many of you put it not a German plane should ever have been downed in WW2. If your at 5000 ft or more and the target is cruising at 500 ft your only choices are a steep dive which limits your exposure but also limits the amount of time your target is in the sights and makes pull out dangerous, or a shallow dive which makes you a better target for escorts. Not to mention that if your flying around at 10,000 to 15,000 ft your never even going to see the Il-2's that are your target.

This post should be a sticky thread! one of the more interesting threads around this board lately.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:47 PM
Interesting read. Thanks.

And I continued to be amazed at how many DF players think there is anything the least bit realistic in those arenas. It's nothing but mindless furballing having nothing to do with real combat missions.

They're fun and they're good practice.

But to try to superimpose what this (and so many other) writer says about Eastern Front combat on the conditions in a DF arena is just silly.

Thoughtful article, though.

ttt

tttiger

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager's Description of the "Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:11 AM
*BUMP*

<center>[i]1mg to me and ur down /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif [i]</center>

<center>-=‚'EverdarK<|>Tracer‚'=-</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 03:15 AM
Poor guy, he gets to revise the article in a month when the patch comes out.

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 08:21 AM
Yes, good read


last week I found and joint play online host by recon ( hope that correct), he setup 97% full real just open "HUD disply TURN ON ONLY" and use history map.with true history mission. and I like this kind of setup very much.


I joint and play over 3 hrs. I got shot by humen 2 time , and AAA 1 time , and make success 4 kill( 2 kills I make surprise attack same like the history ),bail land 2 time caz out of feul by lose navigator.Each refly, I take 109F4 with fuel 100% fly over 200km. for looking Red friends.

That time I happy for learning in full real history task. That task is not easy it's require alot of patient , for looking the target and not easy for navigator a/c back home base while fuel is going out,and not easy for looking the target and come close to detect he is blue or red ( no icon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)



I would like to know How many of you playing full real same like this, and where I can join.



S!

Black 9

michapma
07-02-2003, 09:06 AM
"Attack of the Airacobras" says that up to over 1400 (records are not exact) aircraft destroyed on the ground on June 22, 1941, and 300 or so in the air. In that first week of Barbarossa, an additional 4000 aircraft, and as many as 10,000 by the fall of 1941. Before the war, the VVS seemed to have developed quantity and not quality. A lot of Russian aircraft were destroyed on the ground, but many of these were obsolete aircraft that would have served little purpose but costing pilots' lives. A good percentage of trained VVS pilots survived the opening stages of Barbarossa and were evacuated to the rear. Wisely, the aircraft production facilities were also moved to the far side of the Urals, out of range of Luftwaffe bombers. By 1943 these facilities were churning out vast quantities of modern aircraft.


Karost, there are a number of European squadrons that would welcome a Luftwaffe pilot who loves flying full real. You can find some in the squadron forum (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/overview.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_sq). My squadron fights for the VVS and participates in online wars, such as Forgotten Wars (speedbar only) and Virtual Online War (speedbar and padlock). In my first five missions in Forgotten Wars I never engaged an enemy plane, and only encountered them on two or so occasions. Unfortunately there has been a dramatic drop in European participation for Forgotten Wars, so we have been looking at more VOW missions and joining Iron Skies. But there is no lack of folks who like full real (or, as some say, full hard).

See you up there,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center"><font color="#">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></font></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%"><font color="#">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</font></td><td align="center">

<font color="#">SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></font></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top"><font color="#">Hardware issues:
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</font></td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:48 PM
michapma/Mike Thanks, for your information http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't know full real (speedbar only) was call as "full hard" LOL

I belive there has many friends about 10-15% in HL who like to play "full hard level" but they must have some place (web) like "full hard center point" to let them hang his schedule or information ,some thing like "IL2-AIR RACING" but no need too big organize.



Oh, Ones thing , I have one copy of "MarkShot's STK/EAW" for 2 year's this is the best pilot manual that I got ,and I hope "IL-2 User's Guide project" will be the good material to make alot of good pilot in this communicty



S!

michapma
07-02-2003, 01:00 PM
Yeah, if I ever finish writing it. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif

By the way, the only reason we allowed the speed bar is because some planes, like the I-16, have their compasses obscured by one object or another (like the stick).

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%"><font color="#">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</font></td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 01:50 PM
exact info about Soviet losses:

Actually 88,300 planes were lost during the war,

43,100 were lost in combat.

45,200 planes were lost non-operationally


Combat losses by years of war

1941 - 10,300
1942 - 7,800
1943 - 11,200
1944 - 9,700
1945 - 4,100

michapma
07-03-2003, 10:13 AM
Nice, Nikolaus. Where did you get those stats?

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 11:37 AM
are you talking about HL for those VOW & FW ?? if not are you allowed to post the websites or server IPs to get access to them ??
also .. iron skies ?? wheres that hosted at ?

michapma
07-03-2003, 12:33 PM
Hi Badsight,

Just curious, which country are you from? (You mentioned country in a thread about the patch.)

Forgotten Wars:
http://forgottenwars.dyndns.org/

Iron Skies:
http://www.ironskies.net/

Virtual Online War:
http://www.vow.de.sr/

All are hosted on Hyperlobby. You have to register at those websites to be allowed to play. You may have to get special permission to participate if you don't belong to a squadron in some of them, I'm not sure. Don't hesitate to join their forums to ask questions!

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

SKULLS_Chap

<a href="http://www.skulls98.netfirms.com/il2/index.html" target="_blank" style="color: #191970; font-size: medium">The
SKULLS</a></p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 12:56 PM
from black cross and red star

russia have losses

total 106400 aircraft
aerial combat 46100

german claimed 45000 aerial victory,very close to russia losses in combat

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/sovair.html





Message Edited on 07/03/0302:59PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 05:10 PM
michapma wrote:
- Nice, Nikolaus. Where did you get those stats?
-
- Mike


It's official info from

Krivosheev and others,

Grif secretnosti snyat Moscow 1993

ISBN 5-203-01400-0

The updated book from 2001 is here on

http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/w00.htm

in russian

( All casualities of Russian and Soviet Military forces in

1900 - 1999)

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 05:19 PM
It's also interesting

on 22/06/41 there were 20,000 planes in Soviet air forces, 9,200 of them were located on the Western border.

122,000 planes were produced during the war 1941-1945

about 18,000 planes were received by lend-leese fron UK, US and Canada

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 05:33 PM
Scalgrim

Bergstrom numbers are very close to Krivosheev.

As far as I can get those combat losses number (43+ thousand) includes losses from enemy planes and AAA.

It seems that luftwaffe experten claims are overestimated on 20-30 % with losses inflicted by AAA in mind

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 07:31 PM
Some interesting comments... enjoyed reading them.

Leon "Badboy" Smith

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 09:02 PM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:
- It's a shame the Jacobites didn't have any Spitfires
- at Culloden !!!

If they had managed to convince good old Charles XII of Sweden to help them in 1719 they wouldnt have needed any! And then Charles wouldnt have died in Norway. And then... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear, give an ear!
Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
Your fautes I will proclaim,
Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear!
2. What is Right, and what is wrang, by the law, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law?
What is Right, and what is Wrang?
A short sword and a lang,
A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!
3. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
What makes heroic strife famed afar?
What makes heroic strife ?
To whet th' assassin's knife,
Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war?
4. Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
Then let your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun,
And leave a man undone, to his fate!
Burns

<img src =http://www.unicef.ca/eng/unicef/lessons/peace/images/peace.gif>