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Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 08:39 PM
Due to playing more For Honor lately and having some discussions with others I have come up with what I believe to be my final suggested list for Centurion changes. I don't have specific numbers but I will do my best to be as detailed possible with each suggested change. As always feedback is appreciated and i'd love to hear ideas of your own if you have any. But please try to stay constructive. Remember I am on xbox and I mainly duel. If any of my suggested changes are a huge oversight on 4v4 please point it out and explain why as best as you can. Here we go:

Misc changes:
~Add a light into heavy combo.
~speed up his dodge recovery time.
~Zone can be canceled if the first or second hit connects. Not on block.
~Add superior block property on the start up frames of a charged heavy.
~require you to start charging the heavy in order to soft feint it into guard break.
~Increase the stamina cost of all moves by a small amount.
~canceling zone costs a good bit of stamina.
~Give centurion the same stamina pool and stamina regen rate as gladiator.
~eagle talon damage increase slightly.
~remove all current light parry punishes.
~No GB after a parry.

Jab:
~Only splats when fully charged.
~Only knocks down when opponent is out of stamina.
~Charged jab now only gives an uncharged heavy. But the visual stun stays the same length.
~Light after jab counts as second light in light > light >heavy combo.
~slightly reduce the stamina damage jab can do.
~make recovery faster on uncharged jab so it's not a free GB for people who dodge.

Kick:
~speed up the animation so kick is faster.
~Kick comes out slower when the person is out of stamina.
~Kick can now knock people down if they are OOS.
~kick can now be used by dodging to the sides as well.
~kick does less stamina damage.
~the light kick gives counts as the second light in his light >light >heavy combo.

Quick throw:
~Timing for teching it is now stricter.
~Can quick throw after a light OR heavy. Input would be back+GB.

Parry counter:
~nerf the stamina damage it does by a good amount. I'd say half at most that it currently does.
~No longer guarantees an uncharged heavy.
~Guarantees a light which counts as the second light in light> light >heavy combo.

I believe that is everything. The changes here were aimed at doing several things. Toning down his punishes was the biggest goal here. He's meant to be super punishing on a mistake. But he punishes too much. So these changes address that. He's also a monster in getting people out of stamina and becomes a huge threat when you are OOS. That being said it was a bit too easy to get people there. That's why I advocated for him to use more stamina and do less stamina damage. A good centurion will still be good at staying with stamina and getting you OOS. But it will require good stamina management. Lastly since he is a "comb/mix intensive" hero I tried to make it so he could get into his heavy soft feint mix up from several different angles. That fulfills both his combo centric nature while also focusing on mix ups.

Lyskir
09-07-2017, 10:12 PM
Due to playing more For Honor lately and having some discussions with others I have come up with what I believe to be my final suggested list for Centurion changes. I don't have specific numbers but I will do my best to be as detailed possible with each suggested change. As always feedback is appreciated and i'd love to hear ideas of your own if you have any. But please try to stay constructive. Remember I am on xbox and I mainly duel. If any of my suggested changes are a huge oversight on 4v4 please point it out and explain why as best as you can. Here we go:

Misc changes:
Add a light into heavy combo
~speed up his dodge recovery time.
~Zone can be canceled if the first or second hit connects. Not on block.
~Add superior block property on the start up frames of a charged heavy.
~require you to start charging the heavy in order to soft feint it into guard break.
~Increase the stamina cost of all moves by a small amount.
~canceling zone costs a good bit of stamina.
~Give centurion the same stamina pool and stamina regen rate as gladiator.
~eagle talon damage increase slightly.
~remove all current light parry punishes.
~No GB after a parry.

Jab:
~Only splats when fully charged.
~Only knocks down when opponent is out of stamina.
~Charged jab now only gives an uncharged heavy. But the visual stun stays the same length.
~Light after jab counts as second light in light > light >heavy combo.
~slightly reduce the stamina damage jab can do.
~make recovery faster on uncharged jab so it's not a free GB for people who dodge.

Kick:
~speed up the animation so kick is faster.
~Kick comes out slower when the person is out of stamina.
~Kick can now knock people down if they are OOS.
~kick can now be used by dodging in any direction.
~kick does less stamina damage.
~the light kick gives counts as the second light in his light >light >heavy combo.

Quick throw:
~Timing for teching it is now stricter.
~Can quick throw after a light OR heavy. Input would be back+GB.

Parry counter:
~nerf the stamina damage it does by a good amount. I'd say half at most that it currently does.
~No longer guarantees an uncharged heavy.
~Guarantees a light which counts as the second light in light> light >heavy combo.

I believe that is everything. The changes here were aimed at doing several things. Toning down his punishes was the biggest goal here. He's meant to be super punishing on a mistake. But he punishes too much. So these changes address that. He's also a monster in getting people out of stamina and becomes a huge threat when you are OOS. That being said it was a bit too easy to get people there. That's why I advocated for him to use more stamina and do less stamina damage. A good centurion will still be good at staying with stamina and getting you OOS. But it will require good stamina management. Lastly since he is a "comb/mix intensive" hero I tried to make it so he could get into his heavy soft feint mix up from several different angles. That fulfills both his combo centric nature while also focusing on mix ups.
Buffs:


Red: highly disagree
Blue: agree
not colored: ok i guess

Kick faster? pls no

He would be way better with those Buffs and Nerfs than he currently is..... in my opinion, especially with the parry changes because he is not relying on parries anymore

High-Horse
09-07-2017, 10:20 PM
This is much more in line with how I thought Centurion would play: lots of mixups rewarded with harsh punishment. This defensive meta just exacerbates his punishments, like the stagger anyone gets from a light parry, Cent can capitalize on it like no one else. I don't see why they haven't at least set up a PTS with changes like this for us to test, but I have no idea what goes on over there.

Also don't think back dodge should have a Kick, but as it currently stands, Kick is an easy GB. If it stays the same speed, then it should be safe from a GB. If it speeds up though, I think it should be punishable as the timing would be tighter. Besides that, Kick recovery can be saved from a GB with a heavy. If a light were also able to be thrown out, it would make it easier for a Cent to react to a missed Kick and avoid the GB.

I thought the whole point is to force someone to stop only blocking and do something else. Cent was made to end the defense meta on his own, but that hasn't worked out so well, especially considering what a great turtle he makes. If Kick were faster, it would make sense if it was punishable by a GB.

edit: And honestly, putting SB on a charged heavy while also only granting soft feint GB from charging would greatly increase the skill ceiling for Cent. Timing a move during startup is one thing, but a charged ability with multiple levels sounds difficult as hell. Taking soft feint GB off of an uncharged heavy would also make it harder to get those wall splats going. I like the idea of Cents having to work harder for those kills.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 11:25 PM
Buffs:


Red: highly disagree
Blue: agree
not colored: ok i guess

Kick faster? pls no

He would be way better with those Buffs and Nerfs than he currently is..... in my opinion, especially with the parry changes because he is not relying on parries anymore

Kick should be faster because of how easy it is to punish and how it has no practical use right now unless the person is OOS. A dodge attack would still beat it. The point is people who don't time the dodge right will get hit now. You'll need to time yourself better to get a punish on his kick.

What is wrong with having superior block on start up frames of charging?
What's wrong with getting rid of the free GB on dodging his jab? Dodge attacks would still punish it.
What is wrong with kick knocking people down in OSS? the kick would be slower when they are in OOS.
All dodges except a back dodge. i'll fix that.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 11:26 PM
This is much more in line with how I thought Centurion would play: lots of mixups rewarded with harsh punishment. This defensive meta just exacerbates his punishments, like the stagger anyone gets from a light parry, Cent can capitalize on it like no one else. I don't see why they haven't at least set up a PTS with changes like this for us to test, but I have no idea what goes on over there.

Also don't think back dodge should have a Kick, but as it currently stands, Kick is an easy GB. If it stays the same speed, then it should be safe from a GB. If it speeds up though, I think it should be punishable as the timing would be tighter. Besides that, Kick recovery can be saved from a GB with a heavy. If a light were also able to be thrown out, it would make it easier for a Cent to react to a missed Kick and avoid the GB.

I thought the whole point is to force someone to stop only blocking and do something else. Cent was made to end the defense meta on his own, but that hasn't worked out so well, especially considering what a great turtle he makes. If Kick were faster, it would make sense if it was punishable by a GB.

edit: And honestly, putting SB on a charged heavy while also only granting soft feint GB from charging would greatly increase the skill ceiling for Cent. Timing a move during startup is one thing, but a charged ability with multiple levels sounds difficult as hell. Taking soft feint GB off of an uncharged heavy would also make it harder to get those wall splats going. I like the idea of Cents having to work harder for those kills.

Yeah I didn't mean to have the kick happen on a back dodge. Will edit that in OP.

SenBotsu893
09-07-2017, 11:35 PM
how about removing the guaranteed uncharged jab after a heavy hit wich in turn gurantees a light.

basically if his heavy hits it guarantees stamina drain and then guarantees additonal damage. that is is just insane.

also now with warlord pushed down from his thrown isnt cent already at the top of the food chain? why any kind of buff for him?

Lyskir
09-07-2017, 11:35 PM
A dodge attack would still beat it. The point is people who don't time the dodge right will get hit now. You'll need to time yourself better to get a punish on his kick.

1: cause the kick is currently 600ms...ALL meele attacks are 600ms and slower even warlords headbutt is slow now so why should cent have a 500ms meele attack for free dmg? ALL meele attack should be punishable

What is wrong with having superior block on start up frames of charging?
2: cause its not interrupable anymore?

What's wrong with getting rid of the free GB on dodging his jab? Dodge attacks would still punish it.

3:yeah ONLY dodge attacks, not everyone are using assasins or raider/kensei

What is wrong with kick knocking people down in OSS? the kick would be slower when they are in OOS.

4 : OOS against a Cent would be certain death even with a unbuffed kick, the majority cant dodge his kick properly

with all those changes Cent would become a kick spammer, better than a turtle? i dont think so

but i really like your new mixup ideas

UbiNoty
09-07-2017, 11:49 PM
Will pass this along up to the team.

Sigh. I really wish we had faster turnaround and could get a better handle on how the devs use all the community feedback they get, but only the devs have the inside track on that knowledge I'm afraid. I'm more than sure that your feedback, especially on centurion, is very much appreciated - and I really want to be able to give credit where credit is due for all the thought and effort you put in.

So at least get some appreciation from me - thanks again for all you do! <3 Even though it feels like centurion changes are like a dream that can't come quickly enough, we know they're coming. It's not a dream I promise.

Knight_Raime
09-08-2017, 12:59 AM
how about removing the guaranteed uncharged jab after a heavy hit wich in turn gurantees a light.

basically if his heavy hits it guarantees stamina drain and then guarantees additonal damage. that is is just insane.

also now with warlord pushed down from his thrown isnt cent already at the top of the food chain? why any kind of buff for him?

I've tested extensively with the centurion against my sparring partner. The jab is never guaranteed outside a pin or a splat. If you're getting hit by a jab after a heavy landing on you that isn't fully charged then your timing is at fault. and yes. I did check against standard guard and reflex guard. Results are consistent.

As i've explained numerous times in other threads all centurion has versus a competent player is the heavy soft feint mix up and his parry punishes. A good majority of his kit is basically useless.

Knight_Raime
09-08-2017, 01:05 AM
A dodge attack would still beat it. The point is people who don't time the dodge right will get hit now. You'll need to time yourself better to get a punish on his kick.

1: cause the kick is currently 600ms...ALL meele attacks are 600ms and slower even warlords headbutt is slow now so why should cent have a 500ms meele attack for free dmg? ALL meele attack should be punishable

What is wrong with having superior block on start up frames of charging?
2: cause its not interrupable anymore?

What's wrong with getting rid of the free GB on dodging his jab? Dodge attacks would still punish it.

3:yeah ONLY dodge attacks, not everyone are using assasins or raider/kensei

What is wrong with kick knocking people down in OSS? the kick would be slower when they are in OOS.

4 : OOS against a Cent would be certain death even with a unbuffed kick, the majority cant dodge his kick properly

with all those changes Cent would become a kick spammer, better than a turtle? i dont think so

but i really like your new mixup ideas

I'm not aware of the frame data on kick. So that is nice to know. I see your concern. But what would be so bad about making it a smidge faster? like 50ms faster?
His heavy is basically not interruptable now. Nor should you really try to anyway considering he can cancel it or soft feint it. It wouldn't even be able to be done on reaction and mainly serves as a way for centurion to deal with spammers.

I can't agree on that. Because that is implying that every hero should be able to punish every move another hero can do. Bad match ups/unfavorable ones exist.
I personally don't buy into that. I fight above average players at best and average players most of the time. Pretty much anyone can dodge a kick from neutral in my experience. And it would be slower while OOS. so those bad at dodging have a bit more breathing room. It's not like he would get much off of it anyway. just talons.

thanks for the positive input on my mix ups!

Knight_Raime
09-08-2017, 01:08 AM
Will pass this along up to the team.

Sigh. I really wish we had faster turnaround and could get a better handle on how the devs use all the community feedback they get, but only the devs have the inside track on that knowledge I'm afraid. I'm more than sure that your feedback, especially on centurion, is very much appreciated - and I really want to be able to give credit where credit is due for all the thought and effort you put in.

So at least get some appreciation from me - thanks again for all you do! <3 Even though it feels like centurion changes are like a dream that can't come quickly enough, we know they're coming. It's not a dream I promise.

I don't personally believe most of my changes will be added in exactly as i've presented them. They sound reasonable enough for me and some others. But the devs understand the game differently and have their own ideas on how they would like to see a hero behave.. I'd be happy just knowing they gave any of my suggestions a serious thought. But thanks for your positive words.

TheTKOShow
09-08-2017, 01:22 AM
Heavy need to be slowed or have them cost stamina, like actually cost stam

Get rid of the heavy to guard break without feinting. Going from hvy to GG without a feint is op in it's self

Jab after heavy should only be if the heavy hits, not on block, deflect, or complete miss

Real simple people he is broken. Every nerf he has had isn't really a nerf because he is still too powerful. The 16 feints like what.,,, how was that a thing.

Too much stam, the wall punish of death needs to go.

If the raider got half of your health bar ever time he threw you to a wall everyone would just play him. A toon getting more then a top heavy from a wall throw is too much. One mistake and I'm done, but he can make as many as he wants.

How many people just gave up because of him, and an entire season has gone by and he is still over powered.

Knight_Raime
09-08-2017, 01:27 AM
Heavy need to be slowed or have them cost stamina, like actually cost stam

Get rid of the heavy to guard break without feinting. Going from hvy to GG without a feint is op in it's self

Jab after heavy should only be if the heavy hits, not on block, deflect, or complete miss

Real simple people he is broken. Every nerf he has had isn't really a nerf because he is still too powerful. The 16 feints like what.,,, how was that a thing.

Too much stam, the wall punish of death needs to go.

If the raider got half of your health bar ever time he threw you to a wall everyone would just play him. A toon getting more then a top heavy from a wall throw is too much. One mistake and I'm done, but he can make as many as he wants.

How many people just gave up because of him, and an entire season has gone by and he is still over powered.

His heavies do cost plenty of stamina as is. But I did point out in my list of changes to increase his cost for every move by a smidge. His second heavy could be slowed down to be as fast as his first one. but neither need to be slower than that.

I could write a literal wall on how it's not over powered. (he's also not the only hero that can do it either.) But the point is soft feinting is needed in order for there to be a decent skill gap. all heros should get the ability to soft feint into GB from a heavy. I would be fine if they cleaned up the animation so they were clear like highlanders soft feints. But removal is out of the question.

I don't see the point in removing that either. The jab is never safe for him as is and is dodgable on reaction like most other unblockable bashes.

I'd suggest actually reading my changes instead of posting your agenda which pretty much seems like you have a lot of L2P issues.