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UF-Josse
08-06-2004, 04:38 AM
Hi all,

Has somebody tables or charts for carrier landing speeds with most current ww2 pacific planes ?

Regards

UF-Josse
08-06-2004, 04:38 AM
Hi all,

Has somebody tables or charts for carrier landing speeds with most current ww2 pacific planes ?

Regards

Fliger747
08-06-2004, 08:39 PM
This will vary with weight! A good question though! I am looking at present for my "best" reference on this which has some good tables for American aircraft. Off the top of my head, the F6F comes across the ramp at about 72 kts or so, the F4U at about 82 kts, perhaps 68 kts or so for the F4F and SBD.

When I find the data I'll post it for you, probably making a "fibber" out of my current assertions.

Fliger747
08-07-2004, 01:31 AM
Most of these come out of tables in "The American Fighter". bear in mind that "landing speed isn't really defined here, but would appear to be the speed at which one rounds out over the ramp. Approach speed would probably be some 10 kts over that.

F2A (Buffalo) 73 mph.
F4F-3 69 mph.
F4F-4 68 mph.
P38-F 85 mph.
P38-L 105 mph!
F6F-3 84 mph.
F4U-1A 87 mph.
F4U-4 89 mph.

A knot= (approx) 1.15 mph. The above "landing speeds if flown in a Knots airplane work pretty well as an "Approach" speed. For the F4U-1A /D 85 knots seems to work out pretty well to near thecut. The stall warning light comes on at 8o knots.

From one of Capt. Winkle Brown's books:

MK 14 Seafire: 75 kts appr, 58 stall
Sea Hutrricane: 78 knts. 70 "over fence".
TBF: 85 kts appr, 78 kts "over fence".
SB2C: 85 kts., poor aileron control.
F6F-3 85 kts, 75 "over fence".

UF-Josse
08-07-2004, 01:56 AM
Great thanks to you mate for this really useful informations and for wasting your time for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Really interesting

Best regards,

Josse

heywooood
08-07-2004, 09:25 AM
I wonder if someone familiar with the IJN aircraft can post the numbers for the Zero, Kate, Val, etc...

Josse - great question and thanks to Fliger for the great follow through. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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PF_Coastie
08-07-2004, 09:53 AM
One thing I am curious about. If this is already discussed in this forum, forgive me and point me in the right direction.

Is relative wind going to be modeled in PF?

The speeds discussed above will be affected greatly by the relative wind. If the ship is traveling at 30kts into the wind, this will help immensely in the landings. If not, It will be much more difficult. Also, If relative wind is modeled, will it affect overall gameplay? Or, Is it just modeled at low altitudes for the landings?

Will you be able to request the ship change heading to put her into the sea/wind?

This is the first time in months I have been here. Just checking it out!

PF_Coastie

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UF-Josse
08-07-2004, 10:15 AM
They are very good questions.... answer at.... fall 2004 ?

But, speeds given by Fliger747 are a good base work and will be very usefull . Just modify function of implemented options http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BSS_Vidar
08-07-2004, 11:16 AM
Great numbers 747!
I think those will be attainable with this flight model. We flew CFS2's Corsair over the ramp between 110-120kts. This was partcally due to no wind over the bow. But the biggest contributing factor for the higher speeds was CFS2's flaps only provided drag and didn't generate any added lift.
It'll be interesting to see if these speed settings work. Hopefully the planes will be modeled close enough to do it. Plus, will this be fast enough to stop rate-of-decent in the event a wave-off is needed.
There will be no wind over the deck or carrier movement during DF server on-line play, but that may be a different story in COOP servers.

Looking forward to finding all these things out! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S!

BSS_Vidar

Fliger747
08-07-2004, 12:15 PM
The 1% F4U1-D has as far as I can tell (CFS2) pretty realistic handling and "numbers". For it I usally used an 85 kt. approach speed with full flaps. If trimmed properly it was quite speed stable and could be flown within a knot or two of target.

Realtive wind over the deck should not under most circumstances affect your approach speed, but it does affect your relative speed with respect to the carrier. As noted by Vidar, no-wind landings on a STATIONARY carrier can be extremely challenging, and in reality were not attempted except under a real emergency circumstance. In the Med, attempts to operate SEAFIRES off of escort carriers in calm conditions, with only the 18 kts of wind that the "Baby Flattops" coud make, resulted in a VERY HIGH attrition rate due to landing accidents in the first day of operations!

Fliger747
08-07-2004, 12:19 PM
By the way, a Waveoff attempted in the F4U-1D noted above, if BELOW 82 knots will result in a realistic and unfortunate torque roll, unless you have a little altitude, which usally you don't.

Fliger747
08-07-2004, 02:48 PM
Japaneese Planes?

As best as I can devine these are numbers for Japaneese planes. They come from the 1% aircraft checklists for the plans cited. I assume they are well reasoned and insightful.

Type: pattern-Approach/over the fence (in Knots)

D3A2 Val 81/59
A6M2 Zero --/59
B5N Kate 72/54
Ki 61 91/66
N1K2 George 89/64
Ki442C 95/68

This is not a Semi-primary source, but these guys (AvHistory.org) care about this stuff enough that they should know as well as anyone. The numbers were mysteriously absent from even references that detailed all sorts of arcane info about the planes!

heywooood
08-07-2004, 05:59 PM
thanks Fliger..

I am sure those IJN numbers are accurate as the 1% research has garnered some respect around the community.



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Fliger747
08-08-2004, 11:35 AM
A couple of other tidbits: The P51-D used for carrier trials (had catapult hooks fitted) used an approach/landing speed of 85 kts. 82 knots was the lower limit of rudder authority and 90 kts. courted pulling the fuselage apart in an arrested landing. View over the nose wasn't great either!

Likewise with the Seafire, FAA pilots were encourged to roll the hood back and stick their head out to sight along the cowling.

Sometimes that means if ya can see the carrier, your not "on" it.

wavy navy
08-13-2004, 03:11 AM
Hi folks,
one thing I want to clear up - does IL2fb even have wind?( I am still flying CFS2) Very important for realistic nav and ease of carrier landings. Very few landings would have taken place with no surface wind at all..

Thanks

Fliger747
08-13-2004, 01:58 PM
You either need wind or fast steaming ships to create wind over the deck. This has been a problem with CFS2, as you well know. Not too much of an issue for single "player" but complicated and ineffectual for multi!

This issue has been tossed about before and my (hmmm) recollection is that it will be worked out at least for single player. Not being a multi guy due to a 26.4 dialup I'm not qualified to comment from experience on this.

Good question!

Baco-ECV56
08-13-2004, 02:19 PM
IL-2, and more notizable FB models winds and turbulence at ground level up to 500 mters depending on weather conditions.

But it seams to be a random feature tied with the kind of weather you chosse in the FMB.

Al I know is that its a hard job to take off and land in certain missions, specailly with crosed winds and a lot of turbulence at ground level.

IV_JG51_Razor
08-13-2004, 03:28 PM
Thanks for those numbers Fliger. For those of you out there who want to fly your approaches using these numbers, multiply them by 1.853 to get Kph, which will be on your speed bar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

As for wind modeled in IL-2, it isn't except, as Baco pointed out, in "stormy" weather conditions. With "poor" weather selected, all you get is turbulance below 300-500m. For the stormy weather conditions, it appears that they have put in a crosswind that goes away as soon as you get your wheels off the ground. This little feature might work to their advantage for DF missions. Luthier has stated in here before that there would not be any moving ships in the DF missions, but it looks like they will be able to put wind over the deck anyway, even though the ship is stationary.

Razor
IV/JG51 11/12 Staffelkapitan
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Baco-ECV56
08-13-2004, 03:34 PM
THanks Razor, if there will be no moving carriers in DF taht means that in Coops we will get moving carriers, HURRAY!

I can see some interesting on line fleet battles coming our way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

BSS_Vidar
08-13-2004, 11:12 PM
Sorry,
I don't have tables or charts for you as far as the landing pattern goes. But I can give you "the numbers" for the carrier's airspace patterns by memory.

Landing Pattern:
Inbound for the brake altitude - 800 ft
Downwind altitude - 600 ft
* When abeam the ship's fantail in the downwind, start your turn for final at 600 ft.
Half way through the turn towards final aka(at the 90) - 450 ft
Roll wings level when established in the groove (aka final bearing).
* In the event of a Bolter (aka missed arrestment) or a wave-off, climb straight aheat to the 600 ft pattern altitude and find your interval aircraft.

Spin Pattern:
If the landing pattern is full, pop up to the spin pattern of 1,200 ft before reaching the ship. This will keep you from climbing up anyone's elevators in the 600 ft Landing Pattern or Brake Pattern at 800 ft.
The Spin pattern has 4 reporting position that are in a circle at 1,200 ft. The carrier is at the 3 o'clock position in that circle and is designated - Spin 1
12 o'clock position - Spin 2
9 o'clock position - Spin 3
6 o'clock position - Spin 4

While in the spin pattern, it's the pilots responcibility to find an opening in the carrier brake altitude and landing patterns. When he finds one he "Charlie's" aka Expedites to the Carrier Brake, establishes his interval from others in the pattern then brakes when the aircraft ahead of him in the pattern is established 45 degrees behind his left wingtip. This insures proper interval (spacing) from the aircraft ahead to land, raise the hook, and taxi out of the wires and landing area before he rolls in on final.

That's the short - short version. If you want to read more and look at pictures, look here:

http://www.blacksheep214.com/cq/cq.htm

This guide is referenced right out of the US Navy's CV NATOPS manual.

S!

BSS_Vidar

IV_JG51_Razor
08-14-2004, 04:02 AM
Vidar, just out of curiosity, how much of the stuff you're quoting from NATOPS was applicable back during "the big hate" before they had a NATOPS manual? Please don't misunderstand me here, I really am curious. I know that you flew in S3s, and it's obvious that you know your way around the pattern of a bird farm. I just wonder about some of the numbers you're throwing out. Are you using the numbers (speeds and altitudes) from your own experience, or from something you've learned about how they did it way back when, in the Bethpage Ironworks machines? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Razor
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BSS_Vidar
08-14-2004, 11:42 AM
Razor,
The landing pattern I outlined above (CV Case-1 Recovery) is based off the landing pattern used during WWII. As a matter of fact, the pattern was tightend with the addition of the Corsair (long nose) to the Airwing and has stuck ever since. The only modification to CV Case-1 was the modification of the angle deck which allows a little more "Groove time". This required an overshoot behind the ship to line up on center-line down the angle.
Very little has changed in 70 years on Naval Aviation as far as patterns go. Establishing Interval/Separation rules haven't changed at all.

BSS_Vidar

IV_JG51_Razor
08-14-2004, 12:18 PM
Thanks for the reply Vidar. That's great gouge. I'll be using your training info for our guys in VF-51 while getting ready for PF's release. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 11/12 Staffelkapitan
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Forgotten Skies Online War
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"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Latico
08-14-2004, 02:20 PM
For easy conversion of metric/standard readouts on the speed bar I posted a few tables on the Netweings site. They are in PDF format and should be easy to print out so you can have them handy while you fly.

You can find them in the downloads under FB/utilities. Scroll down to the bottom. Zip file size - 13kb

nearmiss
08-14-2004, 02:49 PM
We're probably gonna get a built in landing pattern just like in the rest of IL2-FB. I say that because of the autopilot thing.

So...turn LEFT RIGHT here, or is it turn LEFT right here (the English language has some confusing elements)

In Louisiana they say turn LEFT RAT here and that's clear as it can be. RAT means (do it here or a mid-sized rodent with big ears)

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Fliger747
08-14-2004, 07:06 PM
A "checklist" and demi-ops manual (checklist with expalnations) for each aircraft would be helpfull, complete with the "manufacturers" normal (approach, landing, stall, VNE etc) speeds quoted.