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One13
09-08-2004, 01:35 PM
From Fighter aicraft by Alfred Price comes this comparative report-
Zeke 52 (A6M5) verses Seafire L.IIC
Maximum Speed.
The Seafire was faster below about 17,000ft; the Zeke was faster above that altitude.
At sea level the Seafire was 24mph faster than the Zeke.
At 5,000ft the Seafire was 24mph faster than the Zeke.
At 10,000ft the Seafire was 18mph faster than the Zeke.
At 15.000ft the Seafire was 18mph faster than the Zeke.
At 20,000ft the Seafire was 5mph slower than the Zeke.
At 25,000ft the Seafire was 10mph slower than the Zeke.
Top speeds attained were 338mph at 5,500ft for the Seafire and 335mph at 18,000ft for the Zeke.
-------------------
Climb.
The Zeke climbs at at very steep angle and gives the impression of a high rate of climb. The Seafire,
however, has a much better inital climb and remains slightly superior up to 25,000ft. The climb of the
Seafire is at a faster speed, but a more shallow angle. The best climb speeds for the Seafire and
Zeke were 160 and 123mph respectively.
Dive.
The Seafire is superior in the dive although inital acceleration is similar. The Zeke is a most unpleasent aircraft in a dive due to heavy stick forces and excessive vibration.
Turning Circle.
The Zeke can turn inside the Seafire at all heights.
Rate of Roll.
The rate of roll of the two arcraft is similar at speeds below 180mph indicated, but above that the aileron stick forces of the Zeke increase tremendously, and the Seafire becomes progressively superior.
Conclusion.
Never dog-fight with a Zeke-it is too manoeuvrable. At low altitudes where the Seafire is at its best, it should make use of its superior rate of climb and speed to obtain a height advantage before attacking. If jumped, the Seafire should evade by using its superior rate of roll. the Zeke cannot follow high speed rolls and aileron turns.
---------------------------------
The SeafireL.IIC was powered by 1,640hp Merlin 32. Loaded weight 7,000lb. It had clipped wings for optimum low level performance.

-----------------------------
First flight 20th Sept.1943

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One13
09-08-2004, 01:35 PM
From Fighter aicraft by Alfred Price comes this comparative report-
Zeke 52 (A6M5) verses Seafire L.IIC
Maximum Speed.
The Seafire was faster below about 17,000ft; the Zeke was faster above that altitude.
At sea level the Seafire was 24mph faster than the Zeke.
At 5,000ft the Seafire was 24mph faster than the Zeke.
At 10,000ft the Seafire was 18mph faster than the Zeke.
At 15.000ft the Seafire was 18mph faster than the Zeke.
At 20,000ft the Seafire was 5mph slower than the Zeke.
At 25,000ft the Seafire was 10mph slower than the Zeke.
Top speeds attained were 338mph at 5,500ft for the Seafire and 335mph at 18,000ft for the Zeke.
-------------------
Climb.
The Zeke climbs at at very steep angle and gives the impression of a high rate of climb. The Seafire,
however, has a much better inital climb and remains slightly superior up to 25,000ft. The climb of the
Seafire is at a faster speed, but a more shallow angle. The best climb speeds for the Seafire and
Zeke were 160 and 123mph respectively.
Dive.
The Seafire is superior in the dive although inital acceleration is similar. The Zeke is a most unpleasent aircraft in a dive due to heavy stick forces and excessive vibration.
Turning Circle.
The Zeke can turn inside the Seafire at all heights.
Rate of Roll.
The rate of roll of the two arcraft is similar at speeds below 180mph indicated, but above that the aileron stick forces of the Zeke increase tremendously, and the Seafire becomes progressively superior.
Conclusion.
Never dog-fight with a Zeke-it is too manoeuvrable. At low altitudes where the Seafire is at its best, it should make use of its superior rate of climb and speed to obtain a height advantage before attacking. If jumped, the Seafire should evade by using its superior rate of roll. the Zeke cannot follow high speed rolls and aileron turns.
---------------------------------
The SeafireL.IIC was powered by 1,640hp Merlin 32. Loaded weight 7,000lb. It had clipped wings for optimum low level performance.

-----------------------------
First flight 20th Sept.1943

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Fliger747
09-08-2004, 03:04 PM
Good review, have read that one before. Historically the 'Spit' guys had a lot of trouble with the Zeke, as they were used to being the 'angles' fighter. Initially some Brit snobbery about Asians and all that resulted in some hard lessons. Later marks of the 'Spit' increased their performance margin.

The biggest problem that I have seen with many flight sims is that such planes as the Zeke, which in reality had some high speed quirks, do not have them! In a 350 knot diving right turn you should be able to shake one!

One true test of the fidelity of a sim is how well the planes of different types perform in comparison to each other, in speed, manuverability, climb and handeling.

ploughman
09-08-2004, 03:18 PM
Initial Brit snobbery about Asians? The first hard lessons were learned by Australians.

Fliger747
09-08-2004, 04:04 PM
Head'n down to Sydney tonight!

WUAF_Badsight
09-08-2004, 08:12 PM
try Spitfire MkV against the zeros in FB to get a idear

similer outcomes will be in PF

.
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WUAF_Badsight
09-08-2004, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
The first hard lessons were learned by Australians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what makes you say that ?

.
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huggy87
09-08-2004, 08:29 PM
Flieger,
Who do you work for? I am a military pilot who has to make the decision soon whether to stay or go.

Cheers,
Huggy

KIMURA
09-09-2004, 04:29 AM
Strange got the same book but with a mention of 200mph on the roll thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura

One13
09-09-2004, 11:17 AM
The full title of the book is "Combat development in world war two: Fighter Aircraft".
This covers all areas of development like shape, structure, engines, armament & tactics etc. It also included extracts from comparative trials flown in UK and USA dring the war. This was the first place I saw the trial between the Spifire and the Fw190, which has been much discussed on these boards.
If your version of the book has 200mph in the trial of roll rates in Zeke V Seafire then the editors must have made a mistake(either in your version or mine), I just copied what I found in the book.
There are also comparative trials between the Zeke and the Widcat, Hellcat and the Corsair.
If anyone is interested I will post those as well.

-----------------------------
First flight 20th Sept.1943

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ploughman
09-09-2004, 12:26 PM
Well you can beat me to death in a pub brawl all you want but as far as I know the during the defence of Darwin, after Japanese six raids, the score was 2 Bettys, 3 Zeroes, and 38 Spitfires. Now maybe there were some snobby Poms flying in that wing, but the hard lesson was basically an Oz one. Don't turn with a Zero.

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One13
09-09-2004, 01:32 PM
The Darwin raids have been talked about before.
Someone posted a list of losses on both sides for all raids in the Darwin area during 1943.
The totals were 28 Spitfires destroyed and 1 damaged. Actual Japanese losses were 22 aircraft destoryed (including 9 Bettys and 3 Zeros) and 31 damaged. So you could say honours were even.

-----------------------------
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MiamiEagle
09-10-2004, 12:14 AM
I do not know why people get so pasionate when comparisons are ever made between fighter of Legend. When you make a evaluation one should as objective as possible. The reality of comparison between Spifire vs the Zero is that the Zero was a superior fighter untill the Spitfire VIII was developed. The Spitfire was the Superior fighter in the long run because the Inglish where able to improve the Spit throughout the War. The Zero unfortunualy for the Japanese did not lend in self for significant improvement. In the end the Spitfire turn to be the Supirior Fighter. As for the Darwin Raids. The Zero showed it self to bee the better fighter. I do not understand why Historians do not do their research properly and look at all the records before comming with a conclusion. No the record was not even . The Zero won that contest. I do not understand why the British do not accept the truth. Is it because they where beaten by non-European. One wonders.I beleive many strories of World War 2 have suffer from the same lack of research deficiences. I hope one day Hitorians will become objective and do a better job of reporting the truth about events of World war 2. I do not mean to revice the War to liking any body but to report events in the cotent of reaching the truth. The Japanese were a far more dangerous and clever enemy than Hitory have them out to be. That has only demeanish the achievment of the ally Arm Forces. Thank you Miamiegle

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
but as far as I know the during the defence of Darwin, after Japanese six raids, the score was 2 Bettys, 3 Zeroes, and 38 Spitfires.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you need to find some accurate books !

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 01:52 AM
Spitfires vrs Zeros over Darwin & the US bomber base near Darwin

.

March 2nd Spitfires downed 3 out of 16 bombers . . . . .w/o loss

March 15 , Spitfires downed 7 for . . . . 4 lost

May 2nd , Spitfires downed 6 for . . . . . 5 lost

june 20 , Spitfires downed 5 fighters & 9 bombers for . . . . 2 lost

june 28 , Spitfires downed 4 fighters & 2 bombers for . . . . . 1 lost (forced landing crash)

june 30 , Spitfires downed 6 bombers & 2 Fighters for . . . . . 6 lost

july 6th , Spitfires downed 7 bombers & 2 fighters for . . . . . 8 lost

september 7th , Spitfires downed 5 fighters for . . . . 3 lost

after this there are no more raids over Australia & Spitfire / Zero encounters after September 7th 1943 happen elsewhere

this only covers Spitfires against Zeros over Darwin & Fenton (the US Liberator base)

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Fri September 10 2004 at 03:41 AM.]

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 01:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
As for the Darwin Raids. The Zero showed it self to bee the better fighter. I do not understand why Historians do not do their research properly and look at all the records before comming with a conclusion. No the record was not even . The Zero won that contest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

myth !

you also need to get some more accurate books !

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
The Zero won that contest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


myth !

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Destraex
09-10-2004, 04:16 AM
WUAF_Badsight
It may be myth that the Zero outfought the Aussie spits but there was not really too much action over Darwin

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Destraex:
WUAF_Badsight
It may be myth that the Zero outfought the Aussie spits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats right ! it is a myth & the opposite happened

if its a myth ( & it is ! ) then why say it !

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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flyingbullseye
09-10-2004, 05:59 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
try Spitfire MkV against the zeros in FB to get a idear

similer outcomes will be in PF

This will give any player a good idea of what to expect since the zero can outturn basically anything at slow speeds. In the Pacific we (allies) learned not to turn with a zero but use BnZ tactics, here in lies the problem. Like FB, PF will get you killed if you try to out dive your enemy since even the light planes can dive as fast as the heavy ones. Its very frustrating when your P-47 gets paced or out dived by either a I-16 or Yak when the Thunderbolt was nearly three times as heavy, and don't give me that areodynamtics point since nothing could keep up with a jug in a dive. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for PF to come out but BnZ tactics won't be as effective as they were in reality.

MiamiEagle
09-10-2004, 08:25 AM
WUAF_Babsight I have read more books on World war two than you can Imagine. Please do not your let your passion interfere with your better judgement. As for that member that wrote that score sheet. It is inaccurate since that account of event over Darwin was what the Aussies Pilots reported back in their Airfield. It was not until dacades later before they looked at Japanese reported Losses to compare our Pilots reported kills. That we realize that they over exagerated their Kill numbers. I do not beleive they did it with the intent to lie. That would be silly and not the truth. The reality is all Pilots of every Nationility in many instances over reported their kill. You have to realize that fighting inside a airplane with speeds of over 300mph and with limited visibility one can get confuse and desiorianted. Now please try to bee objective.
PS: I bet you would have would not have gotten so upset if I would have stated that the Bf109F was superior to the Spitfire V . Thats what I mean for the lack of objectivity when it comes to the Pacific air war.

[This message was edited by MiamiEagle on Fri September 10 2004 at 07:34 AM.]

[This message was edited by MiamiEagle on Fri September 10 2004 at 07:36 AM.]

MiamiEagle
09-10-2004, 08:42 AM
I also stated that the the Spitfire was the Supirior Plane in the long run since it lend itself to many significant improvements. While the Japanese where not able to the same with the Zero. Now that the Truth. Miamieagle

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
Now that the Truth.
Miamieagle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no it isnt !

the numbers i posted are correct dude , check them out for yourself

that the Spitfires were shotdown more than they shot down Zeros is a MYTH !

the spitfires were MkV & were in used condition , exports from Britian

the pilots were not that heavily experienced & they still wasted the Zeros that triedto come over !

i think your a fan of the Zero &are sticking up for it just because its a Zero

i (before i researched it) would also have said the Zero was the better A/C & would have beaten the Spitfires with ease

BUT THEY DIDNT !

look at the numbers MiamiEagle . . . . your wrong !


Spitfires vrs Zeros over Darwin & the US bomber base near Darwin

.

March 2nd ,spifires downed 3 out of 16 bombers . . . . . W/O LOSS

March 15 , Spitfires downed 7 for . . . . 4 lost

May 2nd , Spitfires downed 6 for . . . . . 5 lost

june 20 , Spitfires downed 5 fighters & 9 bombers for . . . . 2 lost

june 28 , Spitfires downed 4 fighters & 2 bombers for . . . . . 1 lost (forced landing crash)

june 30 , Spitfires downed 6 bombers & 2 Fighters for . . . . . 6 lost

july 6th , Spitfires downed 7 bombers & 2 fighters for . . . . . 8 lost

september 7th , Spitfires downed 5 fighters for . . . . 3 lost

that is the complete record .. . . . . its in the Spitfires favour on each occasion

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Fri September 10 2004 at 06:12 PM.]

WUAF_Badsight
09-10-2004, 03:24 PM
what does that show ?

that Zeros were shot down by worn Spitfires & that Zero pilots let Spitfires thru to shoot bombers down

i find that amazing , especially after having played a Combat Flight Sim where i have attacked formations of medium bombers , like Bettys were , that also have escourts

those Zero pilots that escourted the bettys in the Darwin raids during WW2 did a poor job IMO

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__________________________________________________ __________________________
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ploughman
09-10-2004, 03:57 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for the Darwin Raids. The Zero showed it self to bee the better fighter. I do not understand why Historians do not do their research properly and look at all the records before comming with a conclusion. No the record was not even . The Zero won that contest. I do not understand why the British do not accept the truth. Is it because they where beaten by non-European. One wonders.I beleive many strories of World War 2 have suffer from the same lack of research deficiences <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is not that the tactics used by allied airforces in this instance were not appropriate, only that the allied air forces were not British. We have enough military balls ups off our own to deal with without being credited with some one elses. I remember reading something about this in "Sigh of a Merlin", I will check it out and see if further light can be shed. As far as I remember the author was concerned that some mechanical shortcoming may have contributed to the losses.

[This message was edited by Ploughman on Fri September 10 2004 at 03:14 PM.]

Atomic_Marten
09-10-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyingbullseye:
....In the Pacific we (allies) learned not to turn with a zero but use BnZ tactics, here in lies the problem. Like FB, PF will get you killed if you try to out dive your enemy since even the light planes can dive as fast as the heavy ones. Its very frustrating when your P-47 gets paced or out dived by either a I-16 or Yak when the Thunderbolt was nearly three times as heavy, and don't give me that areodynamtics point since nothing could keep up with a jug in a dive. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for PF to come out but BnZ tactics won't be as effective as they were in reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the biggest dogfight issue in this game. IL-2 engine favours TnB over BnZ tactic and that is about it. By flying good BnZ plane one can not gain nearly that kind of advantage like flying good TnB plane. Problem is that with pure BnZ plane in IL-2 you can ONLY expedite BnZ tactic, and with TnB plane you can expedite *BOTH* tactics succesfully (I was having a lot of fun on servers BnZing with Ki84c... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Atomic_Marten
09-10-2004, 04:49 PM
And by the way, IMHO there is no point for crying over it now. So called "luftwhiners" brought this issue long time ago. If this isn't changed over a few years, I don't think it will be in the PF either. I only hope that BoB will be *THE* game... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I remember WUAF_Badsight saying something about a lot of Corsair whine posts appearing when PF comes out. And I agree with him.

Giganoni
09-10-2004, 05:19 PM
The Ki-84 is not a good example to say this sim makes TnB aircraft able to do BnZ, because the Ki-84 isn't a pure TnB aircraft. It has manuverabilty, but it is not the best at it. It can dive and has power, but its not the best. It probably is one of the best though when it comes to vertical climbing. However, in other sims too the Ki-84 had good vertical climb. It is more of a Jack of all trades and that is one reason why it was rightly dangerous when it was in good shape.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

MiamiEagle
09-10-2004, 10:39 PM
Iam not a Zero Lover but Iam World War 2 flight Simulator enthusiast. My favorite plane is the P51 and in the Pacific its the Hellcat. I do not hate the Spitfire . As a matter of fact its one the smothest and funnest plane in World war two to fly. Iam just not pasionate of any Plane in particulate. Iam a Aviation amatuer Historian purest. If you accuse me of giving you the truth and you do not like it. I am sorry. Miamieagle

Atomic_Marten
09-11-2004, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
The Ki-84 is not a good example to say this sim makes TnB aircraft able to do BnZ, because the Ki-84 isn't a pure TnB aircraft. It has manuverabilty, but it is not the best at it. It can dive and has power, but its not the best. It probably is one of the best though when it comes to vertical climbing. However, in other sims too the Ki-84 had good vertical climb. It is more of a Jack of all trades and that is one reason why it was rightly dangerous when it was in good shape.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totaly agree with you. Ki84 is not a pure TnBer, he likes BnZ also.

Problem is that you can get high in Yak3, LA7 and the Spits and do the BnZ (my favourite tactic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ) succesfully.

And BTW IMHO that Ki84C is the best BnZ plane in the IL-2 v2.04, bearing in mind that majority of my prey do not exceed 3000-4000m alt online.