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View Full Version : Deflecting raider side attacks, more specifically the lack thereof



PepsiBeastin
09-06-2017, 01:55 AM
Call me crazy but I've NEVER been able to deflect Raider's side heavies or lights. I can deflect his tops with ~90% accuracy, yet the deflect window for his side attacks eludes me. Am I doing something wrong? Have other people experienced this too?

Also on the same topic, why in the everloving f*** can't you deflect unblockables? You can parry them, so why can't we deflect them too? I have an impulse reaction to dodge into Raider's zone, and even though my physical body is UNDER his axe during the dodge, I still get hit.

kweassa1
09-06-2017, 01:58 AM
1. Your timing is simply off.

2. Deflect is a function of block, or rather an alternate type of. Parry is not. You can't deflect "Unblockable" attacks any more than you can block one.

3. If you have get hit by Raider ZAs, you're simply dodging at the wrong timing.

PepsiBeastin
09-06-2017, 02:19 AM
1. The window needs to be increased then, because it must be extremely tiny.

2. "Function of a block" what? How is deflect, someone you do in a dodge, a "function of a block" while parry, something you do while actively blocking, is not?

3. I've dodged them at every single time in the move, and you ALWAYS get hit. As Orochi at least.

kweassa1
09-06-2017, 02:27 AM
1. The window needs to be increased then, because it must be extremely tiny.

For you, maybe. You can "increase" the window through something called "practice". I hear it does wonders.



2. "Function of a block" what? How is deflect, someone you do in a dodge, a "function of a block" while parry, something you do while actively blocking, is not?

It's not a dodge. It's when you initiate a dodge during a frame-situation where it's too late to dodge and evade an attack, but too early for your dodge to fail activation and just block at the current position. In layman's terms, "you're blocking while dodging".

It's functionally the same thing as "superior block on dodge" attacks the Conqueror or Kensei can do, or, as I've mentioned earlier, an "alternate version". Both deflect and 'superior block on dodge' is a function of block. Both occur when you block an attack during your dodge... the difference being deflect doesn't interrupt opponent attack, supblock on dodge does.


Actually, as a matter of fact, there's 3 types of same functional move, which all classes have a version of. If explained in detail, it goes sorta like this:


A. "block on dodge"
- all classes have some form of "block on dodge". This occurs when you enter a dodge, too late in the attack stage for you to cleanly evade the opponent's attack, but too early for your dodge to fail activation and simply block the attack where you stand. What happens is, if your class dodges "into" an attack with the guard stance held in that direction, you literally "block the attack while you dodge" ALL classes have this function.

B. "superior block on dodge"
- a different version of the normal "block on dodge" as stated above, the Kensei and the Conqueror (from the top of my head) has the "superior block on dodge" which functions exactly the same as A, but has superior block properties which interrupt all opponent attacks (that can be blocked).

C. "Deflect"
- To those classes designated as "assassins", the "block on dodge" functions differently. As you dodge and block the opponent's attack, neither lights or heavies are interrupted upon your block. In turn, the recovery frames of Deflect is very much shorter than other "block on dodge" moves, ad has follow-through attack which almost always are guaranteed -- provided the conditions are right, and also in many cases, due to its association with the Assassin's reflex guard, also activate faster and in some cases can deflect certain 'guaranteed' attacks which would land on most opponents.

Comprende?



3. I've dodged them at every single time in the move, and you ALWAYS get hit. As Orochi at least.

Because you don't know at which timing you have to dodge at.

Do you want me to get you a vid of me dodging Raider's Fury in ANY of the three (left, right, back) directions?

PepsiBeastin
09-06-2017, 02:44 AM
I couldn't tell if you were trolling or just legitimately had no idea what you're talking about, but looking at your constant replies on various posts I'd say you're just a ******* full of himself, who actually thinks he knows what heps talking about.

kweassa1
09-06-2017, 02:53 AM
I couldn't tell if you were trolling or just legitimately had no idea what you're talking about, but looking at your constant replies on various posts I'd say you're just a ******* full of himself, who actually thinks he knows what heps talking about.

There there. It's normal to rage like you're doing right now when confronted with the truth that "you're doing it wrong". But facing the truth really helps.

For one thing, it stops you from blaming something else for your own mistake, and helps you acknowledge that you suck, and therefore, once you acknowledge just what you are doing wrong, from that point on you can correctly practice it and get better.


So , since you've not answered the question and just broke into insults immediately, I'll ask you again:

Do you want to see vids of which timing you can dodge Raider's Fury in all THREE directions (away from swing in right dodge or back step, and INTO swing in left dodge)... and also a sample/practice vid on which timing you have to dodge to deflect Raider's side heavies?


Just say the word. I'll whip it up and show you, so you can practice correctly and realize what you were doing wrong. Happy to help. :)


(ps) Since I'm working right now, you'll have to give me around 10~12 hours or so, but it's no biggy for me to film it up and post it after I get home. I mean, you will see that I'm not a "troll" of any sort in this matter, and simply admit you were wrong when I show you the deflect timing and dodging Raoder's Fury, right?

i mean, that's what good people do. Acknowledge their mistakes and apologize, right? :D :D :D

kweassa1
09-06-2017, 12:52 PM
Some sample vids... which probably will make you hate me and think I'm an arsehole despite the fact it showed you how mistaken you were, thus giving you a starting point in acknowledging what your mistakes were, and start practicing to correct it.

Please excuse the two instances I've filmed only dodging INTO Raider's Fury. Kinda hard to get the BOT to do what you want. I can do film dodging left or dodging away if you really want it.


https://youtu.be/MGZqDuENL7w


https://youtu.be/gk7ea2Kqk2M


Just a reminder for others: as I always say there is no friggin' such thing as "tracking". No attack "tracks" you and unfairly hits you despite you've evaded it well. If an attack "tracks" you and lands, it simply means you didn't evade it well at all. You miserably failed in evading the attack with incorrect timing, and that's why the attack visually displays you being hit with it as a result -- and visual representation is sometimes awkward when a drastic positional change occurs.

Why am I saying this? Because it is YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE of what I am preaching to the people:

(1) "tracking", or adjustment of the attack to make it connect to its target ALWAYS occurs on the beginning phase of the attack. When you dodge at this moment you dodge prematurely. 100% of "tracking" incidents occur when you miss the dodge timing due to being TOO early.

(2) after the beginning phase is over and the attack actually its swinging, its from their the attack is totally committed, and during mid-swing the attack cannot be adjusted to compensate for opponent movement. WHEN YOU DODGE AT THIS MOMENT, you can dodge just about ANYTHING -- one such result being dodging INTO the Raider's Fury and evading it scot-free.


That's how dodging works.

PDXGorechild
09-06-2017, 02:40 PM
2. "Function of a block" what? How is deflect, someone you do in a dodge, a "function of a block" while parry, something you do while actively blocking, is not?

Gotta say I agree with Pepsi here, Kweassa1. Despite the fact it's called "Deflect", the assassins appear to dodge under/around the opponents swing, something that fits in with their character, and also supported by the fact you have to dodge in the direction of the swing. Makes sense to me that it'd be possible to deflect an opponents unblockable attack by dodging under it wheras you wouldn't be able to block OR parry it, due to it being UNBLOCKABLE. To parry, you must first block the attack.

This aside, i've deflected plenty of side heavies from raiders as a Berserker. Try playing against the raider bot for an hour of deflect practice if you can stand it, it's just timing.

UbiNoty
09-07-2017, 01:32 AM
While I support most of the discussion going on in here. I just wanted to make a comment regarding some of the things I saw.
1. If you post looking for help, be accepting of the fact that you might not always like what you hear. And while help might not always be helpful. But at least appreciate that they tried to help.
2. If someone points out things, you can disagree with their opinion or even not like it , but don't insult them please.
3. You can all disagree. Disagreements can happen on anything. But giving insults instead of presenting your side of the case does not help your argument.

Thanks. Let's remember this very, very important message - be civil, be respectful, keep an open-mind.

CandleInTheDark
09-07-2017, 01:59 AM
Gotta say I agree with Pepsi here, Kweassa1. Despite the fact it's called "Deflect", the assassins appear to dodge under/around the opponents swing, something that fits in with their character, and also supported by the fact you have to dodge in the direction of the swing. Makes sense to me that it'd be possible to deflect an opponents unblockable attack by dodging under it wheras you wouldn't be able to block OR parry it, due to it being UNBLOCKABLE. To parry, you must first block the attack.

This aside, i've deflected plenty of side heavies from raiders as a Berserker. Try playing against the raider bot for an hour of deflect practice if you can stand it, it's just timing.

Here is the thing though, you aren't really dodging under an attack. The two examples of deflect I am most familiar with are those of the peacekeeper and the valkyrie. With the peacekeeper, you dodge into the attack, and you can visually see that it is a matter of the peacekeeper blocking the weapon of the opponent with her sword and sliding in to get the light attack with her dagger. Valkyrie it is even more explicit, you actively block the shot with your shield before going into shoulder pin. Dodging under? That's when you activate dodge at such a time that the invincibility frames have you pass through the attack, I always took it as given deflect was a block on dodge and so would not work on unblockables, Both the block and the dodge,and so deflect, are defensive moves.

As to parry, you are not actively defending which is powered through, you are actually throwing a full blooded attack of your own which you would imagine has more power behind it,it isn't a matter of I will let the attack crash into my blade/shield,you are redirecting force with a force of your own. Now you could argue that it is still unblockable and so parry shouldn't really work, honestly I think a line had to be drawn somewhere and that it was parry has priority over unblockable, but I don't see an argument for deflect overriding unblockable attacks just because parry, rightly or wrongfully,does.

kweassa1
09-07-2017, 02:44 AM
I'm a bit baffled as to why anyone would think it's a function of dodge, Sure, it requires a dodge action as a prerequisite, but everything else very clearly indicates deflect being a functional derivative of block.


the motion
- in all cases you see the proponent use his/her weapon to physically block the attack and redirect the force while maintaining the dodge momentum. Like Candle mentioned the PK's deflect is hands-down the most awesome looking, as she puts her daggers up, blocks the incoming attack and "slides" down the opponent's blade length. You see the sparks flying, indicating your weapon is being grinded against the opponents'.


the sound
- instead of the usual "clang"ing sound typical of impacting metal, you hear a scraping sound throughout the deflect action.


the name
- "Deflect" literally means receiving incoming kinetic impact and redirecting it toward a different direction to lessen the impact.

Butonfly
09-07-2017, 07:33 AM
Can confirm, technically kweassa1 is being very helpful in terms of explaining the nuances of the game.

Where kweassa1 is unhelpful is in his social decorum. He's coming off as an *** even if he doesn't mean to. You could just chalk this up to poor social/communicative skills.

But that's ok! Because
i mean, that's what good people do. Acknowledge their mistakes and apologize, right? ~kweassa1 2017

; D

Charmzzz
09-07-2017, 07:58 AM
Can confirm, technically kweassa1 is being very helpful in terms of explaining the nuances of the game.

Where kweassa1 is unhelpful is in his social decorum. He's coming off as an *** even if he doesn't mean to. You could just chalk this up to poor social/communicative skills.

But that's ok! Because

; D

Are you serious? His first reply, the first reply in this whole thread, was on point, nowhere near being an a**, and he stayed "informal" and "calm" in all his other replies. It is the OP who responded in an offensive way...

kweassa1
09-07-2017, 07:59 AM
Can confirm, technically kweassa1 is being very helpful in terms of explaining the nuances of the game.

Where kweassa1 is unhelpful is in his social decorum. He's coming off as an *** even if he doesn't mean to. You could just chalk this up to poor social/communicative skills.

But that's ok! Because

; D

Only when I get the op to acknowledge his ignorance first, which then, afterwards I do the "it's ok to make mistakes, I'm sorry too" dialogue in the most condescending and annoying tone as humanly possible to rub it in.

Unfortunately, when I point out mistakes people make, for some reason they always seem to disappear and never show up to the thread ever again... usually they turn up like weeks~months later and act as if nothing happened, until they make another same type of mistake by making false claims and faulting the game for their own mistakes, demanding a fix to something not broken.

Woe is me and my big mouth. :D

PDXGorechild
09-07-2017, 08:44 AM
I was most mostly going on Berserkers deflect, Candle. To be honest i'd never really studied the other Assassins deflect in too much detail. He appears to dodge under his opponents swing and guard break, seems like it would work for unblockables to me!

Please.... just give us some kind of buff.. we feel so neglected...

Malyngo
09-07-2017, 10:41 AM
I think this is quite a good video showing how to deflect, and he also shows it with a Raider as opponent:

https://youtu.be/Xd7IccP8B20?t=4m40s

If I am not mistaken (which I very well could be, I myself really suck at blocking, deflecting, all that stuff), the right time to deflect is around where you also would parry, so when the indicator is flashing.

CandleInTheDark
09-07-2017, 10:56 AM
I was most mostly going on Berserkers deflect, Candle. To be honest i'd never really studied the other Assassins deflect in too much detail. He appears to dodge under his opponents swing and guard break, seems like it would work for unblockables to me!

Please.... just give us some kind of buff.. we feel so neglected...

If you look carefully at the video Malyngo posted, you will see that there is a burst of sparks before the guardbreak so there is definite contact and deflection there also.

Once the guardbreak off parry goes,berserker's deflect is going to be all the more powerful because with a dodge you will get something everyone else has to work harder for.

PDXGorechild
09-07-2017, 03:23 PM
If you look carefully at the video Malyngo posted, you will see that there is a burst of sparks before the guardbreak so there is definite contact and deflection there also.

Once the guardbreak off parry goes,berserker's deflect is going to be all the more powerful because with a dodge you will get something everyone else has to work harder for.

Yeah you're right actually, I'll concede that one. Dunno why i've never noticed. Still seems like it would be a viable way to avoid getting hit by an unblockable, if you cant stop it, redirect it?

That had occurred to me re the deflect becoming more useful. I've neglected using it on the most part due to the risk. Is deflect usable when staggering in a frame where you would otherwise be unable to dodge backwards for example?

Alustar.
09-07-2017, 05:01 PM
From my perspective, the reasoning is as follows: parry is a way to completely negate an opponents attack. When you parry you halt the attack and push your opponent back. With deflect you do not. You mitigate damage while being able to counter simultaneously. As we know you aren't supposed to block unblockables, same applies to deflect. If you have the timing down for an attempted deflect, a parry should be just as easy

watsonclan335u
09-07-2017, 10:33 PM
OP did not deserve the care and attention you put into your original reply IMO.