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View Full Version : Warden究 Vortex spam. Fix and solutions



RobertHarr1son
09-05-2017, 08:25 AM
I believe the wardens need a fix to prevent them from spamming their vortex move.


Here is my idea: being able to cancel it, but not turn it into a guardbreak. Also, make the warden愀 heavy attacks faster and their parry times shorter, like the highlander

I am writing this because wardens tend to spam vortex and/or turn it into a guardbreak; and people have told me that I have to "predict" that guardbreak instead of reacting to it. There is also the possibilty of a tactical retreat, but assasins are the ones with the highest chances of escaping, while heavies, hybrids and vanguards would just lose a lot of stamina, wich can be key in a critical situation.

Your thoughts?

Camemberto
09-05-2017, 08:29 AM
I think the cancel into guardbreak should be a thing, but it should require the cancel to happen very very soon. Also the indicator should show quicker, so that there is a way to act on react, instead of instinct. Also maybe the shoulderbash could use a bit of a slow down (?) but that might be overkill.

Kaijudub
09-05-2017, 08:31 AM
I believe the wardens need a fix to prevent them from spamming their vortex move.


Here is my idea: being able to cancel it, but not turn it into a guardbreak. Also, make the warden愀 heavy attacks faster and their parry times shorter, like the highlander

I am writing this because wardens tend to spam vortex and/or turn it into a guardbreak; and people have told me that I have to "predict" that guardbreak instead of reacting to it. There is also the possibilty of a tactical retreat, but assasins are the ones with the highest chances of escaping, while heavies, hybrids and vanguards would just lose a lot of stamina, wich can be key in a critical situation.

Your thoughts?

Or just play the game a bit more and you might figure out how to evade him.

Warden is far from broken, you take away his SB and you might as well remove him from the game.

Charmzzz
09-05-2017, 08:55 AM
Warden SB can be countered, they nerfed it looong time ago.

Warden is close to you (in range of your weapon): throw a light as soon as he starts his charge
Warden is close to you (not in range of your weapon): walk back and wait for his SB, he cannot cancel it into GB if he traveled a short distance (iirc the time when Warden can mixup into GB is 500ms) OR as an Assassin you can Dodge+Attack, Warden cannot GB you when you do that early.
Warden is far away: he will either cancel his SB or charge it fully, prepare to Dodge and punish with a free GB

Lyskir
09-05-2017, 09:56 AM
warden is fine now in my opinion, still strong but not top tier anymore


with the nerfs to warlord, the only heroes that need a nerf is PK ( zone) Cent and Glad (also zone)

Moondyne_MC
09-05-2017, 10:10 AM
Solution: light attack as soon as you see him go for SB. Don't let them get in close enough that their SB immediately hits after charging, everything outside of that distance is reactable.

Charmzzz
09-05-2017, 10:12 AM
warden is fine now in my opinion, still strong but not top tier anymore


with the nerfs to warlord, the only heroes that need a nerf is PK ( zone) Cent and Glad (also zone)

Well, nerf PK Zone again and she has nothing left except a Heavy Soft Feint into GB from Neutral. Wow...

Ok, it is a 400ms Attack (fastest in the game, followed by alot of 500ms Light Attacks) - but it deals only 20 Damage (in comparison: lowest zone Damage is Conq / Valk with 10 / 15 on first Hit, highest is Raider / Nobu with 28 / 33) and it costs half of her Stamina. With such a low health pool, no unblockable (well, ok, Deflect and Heavy followup - both not that easy to pull off and you do not get insane amounts of Damage from it) I think PK should keep the fastest Attacks. It is the idea behind her "Design".

Lyskir
09-05-2017, 10:40 AM
Well, nerf PK Zone again and she has nothing left except a Heavy Soft Feint into GB from Neutral. Wow...

Ok, it is a 400ms Attack (fastest in the game, followed by alot of 500ms Light Attacks) - but it deals only 20 Damage (in comparison: lowest zone Damage is Conq / Valk with 10 / 15 on first Hit, highest is Raider / Nobu with 28 / 33) and it costs half of her Stamina. With such a low health pool, no unblockable (well, ok, Deflect and Heavy followup - both not that easy to pull off and you do not get insane amounts of Damage from it) I think PK should keep the fastest Attacks. It is the idea behind her "Design".

make it punishable like wardens zone, blocked zone = free GB

without it its just a braindead move for free dmg

Charmzzz
09-05-2017, 12:41 PM
make it punishable like wardens zone, blocked zone = free GB

without it its just a braindead move for free dmg

What? Put your Guard to your right side - problem solved. Now PK can only GB, Feint or throw a 500ms Light from Top or Right like alot of others.

Vakris_One
09-05-2017, 02:31 PM
My problem with Warden's SB is that it is a guessing game and there is no skill involved in either using it or countering it. Two players are basically throwing dice and performing a luck test. Whoever guesses right wins. Whoever thought that was a brilliant idea in a skill based fighting game was smoking some powerful stuff at the time. The fact that it can be spammed repeatedly also makes it far worse than it should be.

The only solid counter to SB is to roll back and away. The funny thing about that is that the player rolling back uses more stamina than the Warden using SB - hilarious.

This video pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Warden's SB:

https://youtu.be/jETgDKRUlgc

In my opinion his SB should:
- cost more stamina to cancel out of
- cost more stamina in general so that you cannot chain spam it for so long. The maximum amount of times you should be able to repeat the 50/50 SB should be 3 times from a full stamina bar or only 2 times from a non full stamina bar. They should take a cue from Highlander's Caber Toss - he can only throw out a single Caber Toss in one of his combos before having to back away to recover stamina.

Antonioj26
09-05-2017, 02:45 PM
My problem with Warden's SB is that it is a guessing game and there is no skill involved in either using it or countering it. Two players are basically throwing dice and performing a luck test. Whoever guesses right wins. Whoever thought that was a brilliant idea in a skill based fighting game was smoking some powerful stuff at the time. The fact that it can be spammed repeatedly also makes it far worse than it should be.

The only solid counter to SB is to roll back and away. The funny thing about that is that the player rolling back uses more stamina than the Warden using SB - hilarious.

This video pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Warden's SB:

https://youtu.be/jETgDKRUlgc

In my opinion his SB should:
- cost more stamina to cancel out of
- cost more stamina in general so that you cannot chain spam it for so long. The maximum amount of times you should be able to repeat the 50/50 SB should be 3 times from a full stamina bar or only 2 times from a non full stamina bar. They should take a cue from Highlander's Caber Toss - he can only throw out a single Caber Toss in one of his combos before having to back away to recover stamina.

But its not a luck test, you get your results from reads much like poker. The same people that are consistently winning arent doing it by luck, they are reading who is sitting across from the table through conditioning or tells and its the same with 50/50s. The problem with your video is its old as hell and the suggestions you've made have already happened. Its far worse than it was now than it was in that video, still a great tool but its a shadow of its formerself.

Charmzzz
09-05-2017, 03:00 PM
My problem with Warden's SB is that it is a guessing game and there is no skill involved in either using it or countering it. Two players are basically throwing dice and performing a luck test. Whoever guesses right wins. Whoever thought that was a brilliant idea in a skill based fighting game was smoking some powerful stuff at the time. The fact that it can be spammed repeatedly also makes it far worse than it should be.

The only solid counter to SB is to roll back and away. The funny thing about that is that the player rolling back uses more stamina than the Warden using SB - hilarious.

This video pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Warden's SB:

https://youtu.be/jETgDKRUlgc

In my opinion his SB should:
- cost more stamina to cancel out of
- cost more stamina in general so that you cannot chain spam it for so long. The maximum amount of times you should be able to repeat the 50/50 SB should be 3 times from a full stamina bar or only 2 times from a non full stamina bar. They should take a cue from Highlander's Caber Toss - he can only throw out a single Caber Toss in one of his combos before having to back away to recover stamina.

1. Did you not read my first Post about it? It is completely counterable on reaction, not guessing. If you can't do it, well, that is your fault. I always tell myself when facing a Warden "Light if he charges and is close - else dodge". Does it work 100% of the time? No, cause my brain tells me "UB - Dodge". But that is my fault and I know it.
2. A non fully charged SB gives 24 Damage - if you dodge it the Warden cannot CGB so you probably get more Damage out of it.
3. A fully charged SB is easy to dodge in a Duel.
4. If the Warden is close enough to SB into GB and you failed to interrupt him with a Light -> your fault, look 1.

Antonioj26
09-05-2017, 03:04 PM
1. Did you not read my first Post about it? It is completely counterable on reaction, not guessing. If you can't do it, well, that is your fault. I always tell myself when facing a Warden "Light if he charges and is close - else dodge". Does it work 100% of the time? No, cause my brain tells me "UB - Dodge". But that is my fault and I know it.
2. A non fully charged SB gives 24 Damage - if you dodge it the Warden cannot CGB so you probably get more Damage out of it.
3. A fully charged SB is easy to dodge in a Duel.
4. If the Warden is close enough to SB into GB and you failed to interrupt him with a Light -> your fault, look 1.

His double lights only do 18 damage from SB so its even less than you thought.

RatedChaotic
09-05-2017, 03:13 PM
Well, nerf PK Zone again and she has nothing left except a Heavy Soft Feint into GB from Neutral. Wow...

Ok, it is a 400ms Attack (fastest in the game, followed by alot of 500ms Light Attacks) - but it deals only 20 Damage (in comparison: lowest zone Damage is Conq / Valk with 10 / 15 on first Hit, highest is Raider / Nobu with 28 / 33) and it costs half of her Stamina. With such a low health pool, no unblockable (well, ok, Deflect and Heavy followup - both not that easy to pull off and you do not get insane amounts of Damage from it) I think PK should keep the fastest Attacks. It is the idea behind her "Design".

Tho in reality these attacks are not really being executed in those times you listed. Antonio linked a video in another thread that shows otherwise.

Vakris_One
09-05-2017, 09:15 PM
But its not a luck test, you get your results from reads much like poker. The same people that are consistently winning arent doing it by luck, they are reading who is sitting across from the table through conditioning or tells and its the same with 50/50s. The problem with your video is its old as hell and the suggestions you've made have already happened. Its far worse than it was now than it was in that video, still a great tool but its a shadow of its formerself.
So we should play a game of poker instead of a fighting game? There is a place for bluffing in a fighting game but what the Warden's vortex does is way too much of a throw of the dice for my liking.

I'm still encountering Wardens that use vortex non-stop. Certainly not as crazy as in True's video granted but they can still do their 50/50 until you are down to 2 health bars if you continually guess wrong. I had 2 of them in the same team in Dominion each vortexing when caught alone. Eventually I just get tired of the guessing game and just roll back and shoot the dude dead with a bow or land an asteroid on him. Is that what fighting in For Honor should continue to be though? Spam some annoying cheese move, get shot in the face by an ability in a team mode. Or spam some cheese and either win or get killed by another form of safe move and/or exploit in a 1v1.

True's video may be old but the Warden's 50/50 is still primarily a guessing game rather than a skill test. As I mentioned, the Highlander has a much healtheir version of this type of bluff manouver via his kick/heavy feint into Caber Toss. What would be the problem to make Warden's SB similiar to that in that he should not be able to spam it repeatedly but must keep an eye on his stamina and pick his moments carefully?


1. Did you not read my first Post about it? It is completely counterable on reaction, not guessing. If you can't do it, well, that is your fault. I always tell myself when facing a Warden "Light if he charges and is close - else dodge". Does it work 100% of the time? No, cause my brain tells me "UB - Dodge". But that is my fault and I know it.
2. A non fully charged SB gives 24 Damage - if you dodge it the Warden cannot CGB so you probably get more Damage out of it.
3. A fully charged SB is easy to dodge in a Duel.
4. If the Warden is close enough to SB into GB and you failed to interrupt him with a Light -> your fault, look 1.
Ah the sanctimonous attitude right off the bat. Allow me to respond in kind:

1) He can easily fake you out by cancelling his SB at a distance if you're too quick on the trigger and then go for a zone on you. He's forcing a reaction, which is fair enough but when he hits you with the SB that's when it becomes the 50/50 guessing game. Did you not watch the video I posted?

2) If you have enough distance, yes you can dodge it. But if the Warden is in your face he'll simply GB you and thank you politely for dodging. Also the Wardens I face tend to combo into SB rather than open with SB - which is often easily dodgable. Once they get the double light on you it becomes the SB guessing game.

3) You don't say. Now if only non-noob level Warden players would let loose a couple fully charged SBs eh? Yeah, I don't think you're encountering the same level of players I am if your Wardens are fully charging their SBs from halfway across the map. The good ones I've encountered hardly ever fully charge it unless I've dodged too early thereby allowing them to time their SB so it hits.

4) look to 2.

No experienced Warden is going to open with SB once they see that you're not a noob. They will either combo into SB via double light or via a successful dodge. It is when they nail you with SB that the guessing game begins.

Antonioj26
09-05-2017, 09:25 PM
So we should play a game of poker instead of a fighting game? There is a place for bluffing in a fighting game but what the Warden's vortex does is way too much of a throw of the dice for my liking.

I'm still encountering Wardens that use vortex non-stop. Certainly not as crazy as in True's video granted but they can still do their 50/50 until you are down to 2 health bars if you continually guess wrong. I had 2 of them in the same team in Dominion each vortexing when caught alone. Eventually I just get tired of the guessing game and just roll back and shoot the dude dead with a bow or land an asteroid on him. Is that what fighting in For Honor should continue to be though? Spam some annoying cheese move, get shot in the face by an ability in a team mode. Or spam some cheese and either win or get killed by another form of safe move and/or exploit in a 1v1.

True's video may be old but the Warden's 50/50 is still primarily a guessing game rather than a skill test. As I mentioned, the Highlander has a much healtheir version of this type of bluff manouver via his kick/heavy feint into Caber Toss. What would be the problem to make Warden's SB similiar to that in that he should not be able to spam it repeatedly but must keep an eye on his stamina and pick his moments carefully?


Ah the sanctimonous attitude right off the bat. Allow me to respond in kind:

1) He can easily fake you out by cancelling his SB at a distance if you're too quick on the trigger and then go for a zone on you. He's forcing a reaction, which is fair enough but when he hits you with the SB that's when it becomes the 50/50 guessing game. Did you not watch the video I posted?

2) If you have enough distance, yes you can dodge it. But if the Warden is in your face he'll simply GB you and thank you politely for dodging. Also the Wardens I face tend to combo into SB rather than open with SB - which is often easily dodgable. Once they get the double light on you it becomes the SB guessing game.

3) You don't say. Now if only non-noob level Warden players would let loose a couple fully charged SBs eh? Yeah, I don't think you're encountering the same level of players I am if your Wardens are fully charging their SBs from halfway across the map. The good ones I've encountered hardly ever fully charge it unless I've dodged too early thereby allowing them to time their SB so it hits.

4) look to 2.

No experienced Warden is going to open with SB once they see that you're not a noob. They will either combo into SB via double light or via a successful dodge. It is when they nail you with SB that the guessing game begins.

But it's not a guessing game, it's reading someone, and like I said everything you asked for in your original post is already a thing.

Vakris_One
09-05-2017, 11:54 PM
But it's not a guessing game, it's reading someone, and like I said everything you asked for in your original post is already a thing.
In that case it must have been the gear stats that skewed my view of those 2 Wardens being able to continuously spam their vortex in that Dom match.

Okay, so if once he hits you with SB it is not a guessing game as to what he will do; then how do I learn to read what he will do after the SB? What should I be looking out for?

Antonioj26
09-06-2017, 12:10 AM
In that case it must have been the gear stats that skewed my view of those 2 Wardens being able to continuously spam their vortex in that Dom match.

Okay, so if once he hits you with SB it is not a guessing game as to what he will do; then how do I learn to read what he will do after the SB? What should I be looking out for?

Everyone's got a pattern, and of course you won't always get it right every single time but you can get the majority. Make the right read enough times, punish accordingly, and you won't be spammed

Vakris_One
09-06-2017, 12:23 AM
Everyone's got a pattern, and of course you won't always get it right every single time but you can get the majority. Make the right read enough times, punish accordingly, and you won't be spammed
Fair enough. It's no more or less like fighting against anyone else in that case. I need to build up my experience against more such Wardens. Thanks for advice.

Antonioj26
09-06-2017, 12:28 AM
Fair enough. It's no more or less like fighting against anyone else in that case. I need to build up my experience against more such Wardens. Thanks for advice.

Np man and don't get me wrong I know it's strong buts pretty much all he has. I think I can speak for most wardens when I say they would prefer a more rounded tool kit than just relying on their vortex.

UbiJurassic
09-06-2017, 12:29 AM
We certainly appreciate the feedback on the Warden's Shoulder Bash. As others have said already, we have made adjustments a number of times to it after hearing strong feedback on it. While the Shoulder Bash is more easily managed by players now, in comparison to where it was on release, we can consider possible adjustments should it continue to be a consistent point of frustration for the community.

Rikuto01.tv
09-06-2017, 01:25 AM
What? Put your Guard to your right side - problem solved. Now PK can only GB, Feint or throw a 500ms Light from Top or Right like alot of others.

Works great until you realize a strong portion of the cast have reflex guard and that isn't a viable solution for them.

I'm actually of the opinion it SHOULD be unreactable, however. Just not with the range that it has.

brashtralas
09-06-2017, 02:09 AM
Or just play the game a bit more and you might figure out how to evade him.

Warden is far from broken, you take away his SB and you might as well remove him from the game.

That's not an argument. That's simply pointing out that the character is obviously broken(relying on one move).

RoosterIlluzion
09-06-2017, 04:50 AM
He was nerfed. I can't believe people are still on this ****. It was avoidable before the nerf, and even more so now. Git gud?

Grivois_Gaulois
09-06-2017, 05:41 AM
I think the cancel into guardbreak should be a thing, but it should require the cancel to happen very very soon. Also the indicator should show quicker, so that there is a way to act on react, instead of instinct. Also maybe the shoulderbash could use a bit of a slow down (?) but that might be overkill.

Isn't the SB feint into GB mere a glitch like many other exploits lame hardcore players love to abuse over and over, for who have the time to actually train to pull out easily a low success rate one frame related move but hardcore players ?

When those glitches will be eventually adressed I think solid classes may become way less frustrating to play against.

RoosterIlluzion
09-06-2017, 07:15 AM
We certainly appreciate the feedback on the Warden's Shoulder Bash. As others have said already, we have made adjustments a number of times to it after hearing strong feedback on it. While the Shoulder Bash is more easily managed by players now, in comparison to where it was on release, we can consider possible adjustments should it continue to be a consistent point of frustration for the community.


Isn't the SB feint into GB mere a glitch like many other exploits lame hardcore players love to abuse over and over, for who have the time to actually train to pull out easily a low success rate one frame related move but hardcore players ?

When those glitches will be eventually adressed I think solid classes may become way less frustrating to play against.

It's not a glitch. It's been a mechanic since alpha.
It used to be cancelled into GB nearly at the end of a shoulder bash, but has already been nerfed to where you MUST cancel at the start - 200 ms ? - before shoulder bash even starts.

RoosterIlluzion
09-06-2017, 07:17 AM
We certainly appreciate the feedback on the Warden's Shoulder Bash. As others have said already, we have made adjustments a number of times to it after hearing strong feedback on it. While the Shoulder Bash is more easily managed by players now, in comparison to where it was on release, we can consider possible adjustments should it continue to be a consistent point of frustration for the community.


My problem with Warden's SB is that it is a guessing game and there is no skill involved in either using it or countering it. Two players are basically throwing dice and performing a luck test. Whoever guesses right wins. Whoever thought that was a brilliant idea in a skill based fighting game was smoking some powerful stuff at the time. The fact that it can be spammed repeatedly also makes it far worse than it should be.

The only solid counter to SB is to roll back and away. The funny thing about that is that the player rolling back uses more stamina than the Warden using SB - hilarious.

This video pretty much encapsulates everything wrong with Warden's SB:

https://youtu.be/jETgDKRUlgc

In my opinion his SB should:
- cost more stamina to cancel out of
- cost more stamina in general so that you cannot chain spam it for so long. The maximum amount of times you should be able to repeat the 50/50 SB should be 3 times from a full stamina bar or only 2 times from a non full stamina bar. They should take a cue from Highlander's Caber Toss - he can only throw out a single Caber Toss in one of his combos before having to back away to recover stamina.

Then every other hero that does a charge of some kind needs to be nerfed. His shoulder bash does ZERO damage and is easily avoidable.

Aarpian
09-06-2017, 09:01 AM
I believe the wardens need a fix to prevent them from spamming their vortex move.


Here is my idea: being able to cancel it, but not turn it into a guardbreak. Also, make the warden愀 heavy attacks faster and their parry times shorter, like the highlander

I am writing this because wardens tend to spam vortex and/or turn it into a guardbreak; and people have told me that I have to "predict" that guardbreak instead of reacting to it. There is also the possibilty of a tactical retreat, but assasins are the ones with the highest chances of escaping, while heavies, hybrids and vanguards would just lose a lot of stamina, wich can be key in a critical situation.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts:
"They could nerf Warden shoulderbash until all it did was make him glow orange, and the people in this community would still complain about it. He's already garbage, why don't they just learn to roll?"

That_guy44
09-06-2017, 09:18 AM
My thoughts:
"They could nerf Warden shoulderbash until all it did was make him glow orange, and the people in this community would still complain about it. He's already garbage, why don't they just learn to roll?"

Rolling away uses up a lot of stamina. Warden is not a character you want to end up in OOS against.

Kaijudub
09-06-2017, 10:23 AM
Rolling away uses up a lot of stamina. Warden is not a character you want to end up in OOS against.

Nope, the stam useage was tweaked to combat this and a roll puts you in a prime position to GB the whiffed SB. It's funny how perfect the roll length is for this. The charge is now completely readable too, so the charge from netural is a no go.

Take it from a Rep40 Warden player that is so frustrated by the nerfs and further steath nerfs to this character that i've stopped playing. Warden in high level is neither fun or viable. The back dash meta negates any chance of OOS punishes so you spend your fights looking for that way in for a vortex mix up. Its literally all you can do, which means if you play someone that has the dodge timing down then you're nothing more than a passenger.

I mean by all means UBI continue to make your game boring by nerfing everything, but at this point i'm done.

bananaflow2017
09-06-2017, 10:56 AM
I think the real problem is not to avoid the first sb...
Anytime he will dodge u and Start it.
After that the real problem is, that he is so close to u that u just her outta recovery After the double light, that it's nearly impossible to do anything in reaction. U just have to guess what happens next. Even if u r doing the right action it's more than just hard to dodge then sb after the double light...
This feels very frustrating.
But maybe I just have to git gud.....
When I face a warden with my valk u just can see the hate rising in my eyes just seeing them turteling and waiting for theire parry or vortex...

Kaijudub
09-06-2017, 11:12 AM
I think the real problem is not to avoid the first sb...
Anytime he will dodge u and Start it.
After that the real problem is, that he is so close to u that u just her outta recovery After the double light, that it's nearly impossible to do anything in reaction. U just have to guess what happens next. Even if u r doing the right action it's more than just hard to dodge then sb after the double light...
This feels very frustrating.
But maybe I just have to git gud.....
When I face a warden with my valk u just can see the hate rising in my eyes just seeing them turteling and waiting for theire parry or vortex...

The distance you are from your opponent actualy makes no difference to the timing of any of the moves in the game. Sadly everything you mention here is dodgeable or blockable. He's also the only character with a punishable zone.

Just to be absolutely clear, if you nerf his SB even more he'll be left with a total of 4 moves he can do. One of those moves (Crushing Counter) requires a top attack, and by this point in the games lifespan if you attack a warden from top its your own fault. His side lights from neutral are painfully slow and his heavy well...As mentioned he also has the only zone punishable on block which makes no sense.

So you're going to be a left with a character that can do nothing more than fish with his top light. SO MUCH FUN.

Whats bassically happened with warden is akin to taking Ryu or Kens fireball and reducing its screen travel to 25% and introducing a 10 second cooldown. Except its actually more drastic than that because those two have other moves which the warden in this case simply doesnt have. Can you imagine if SF did that because people moaned about shodo spam?!

GG though community, this was single handedly done by us. Yet another computer game ruined because people can't be bothered to master game mechanics so would rather ruin it for others.

bananaflow2017
09-06-2017, 11:19 AM
The distance you are from your opponent acutaly makes no difference to the timing of any of the moves in the game. Sadly everything you mention here is dodgeable or blockable. He's also the only character with a punishable zone.

Just to be absolutely clear, if you nerf his SB even more he'll be left with a total of 4 moves he can do. One of those moves (Crushing Counter) requires a top attack, and by this point in the games lifespan if you attack a warden from top its your own fault. His side lights from neutral are painfully slow and his heavy well...As mentioned he also has the only zone punishable on block which makes no sense.

So you're going to be a left with a character that can do nothing more than fish with his top light. SO MUCH FUN.

Whats bassically happened with warden is akin to taking Ryu or Kens fireball and reducing its screen travel to 25% and introducing a 10 second cooldown. Except its actually more drastic than that because those two have other moves which the warden in this case simply doesnt have. Can you imagine if SF did that because people moaned about shodo spam?!

GG though community, this was single handedly done by us. Yet another computer game ruined because people can't be bothered to master game mechanics so would rather ruin it for others.


So u say it takes the same time to travel with a sb no matter if it is 5m or 20m?
Sorry i dont get that ( no offense i really dont get it).
When u stand directly in front of me After the double light? Them im still able to dodge it when u release it?
So dont get me wrong. This is not toxic or anything. I just war to be a bit smarter.
Warden is still my Nemesis with my valk.

Xiascou
09-06-2017, 11:35 AM
Best way to get rid of Wardens vortex is by reducing his Guard Break distance till he's an Orochi. Like have you seen that range man? I'm gonna start calling him Chris Kyle just as a joke from now on. Another excellent way to stop people from spamming his shoulder bash is by making it Guard Break-vulnerable once you dodge it, it isn't vulnerable as is (tested it with LB), if it's possible with other more light-weight/fast characters then they need to make it a thing for ALL characters regardless of speed or class.

Though this might put people off and stop playing him, it's better to fight a character who has a weakness than none at all because let's face it, people are like the sensation of winning and Warden gives this for free without any charge whatsoever and he has no flaw to the current moveset combo he's infamous for. He's simply "TOO EASY" in a way and takes no effort in beating people who don't roll away and reset the fight or have trouble dodging.

Just wanted to rant here, if someone has this idea already then good for you because I didn't read the 10-long paragraphs in the previous pages.

Kaijudub
09-06-2017, 12:24 PM
So u say it takes the same time to travel with a sb no matter if it is 5m or 20m?
Sorry i dont get that ( no offense i really dont get it).
When u stand directly in front of me After the double light? Them im still able to dodge it when u release it?
So dont get me wrong. This is not toxic or anything. I just war to be a bit smarter.
Warden is still my Nemesis with my valk.

Yeah the window granted is small but the sb after side lights is still dodgeable if the warden doesn't go for the gb and you dodge. I also believe if the warden side lights after a sb and your guard is already in that direction then you can also block the sides. But the charge time is now readable, so with practice you can easily read what we're going to do as we have to instantly hit cancel or gb to stop it.

My advice to you is maybe play as a warden against a level 3 warden bot and it will show you its do able. The thing with the sb is the dodge timing is all in the charge, if you try and dodge once he's on the move i believe its harder to dodge, and if that happens when he's in your face then of course he's going to hit you. But it's actually quite risky now for warden to sb out of neutral, almost pointless.

Once in the "vortex" yes it's a little more difficult to evade. But there has to be something the Warden is good at as he really doesn't have much else to offer. I put the "" over vortex because in reality anything you can simply roll out of isn't by definition a 50/50. But we can thank Tru3 for the fifteh fifteh meme.

IF you see a warden sb from neutral, simply dodge back and keep walking back, if its a short charge it will whiff and you get a gb if timed properly. If he holds charge then roll back and your roll end will coincide with the warden sb whiff stop and you again get a simple gb.

Lets also not forget the removal of time snap in this discussion, as of recently i've been getting hit by the weirdest of things so i imagine the windows i'm talking are smaller and in random places lol.

bananaflow2017
09-06-2017, 02:37 PM
Yeah the window granted is small but the sb after side lights is still dodgeable if the warden doesn't go for the gb and you dodge. I also believe if the warden side lights after a sb and your guard is already in that direction then you can also block the sides. But the charge time is now readable, so with practice you can easily read what we're going to do as we have to instantly hit cancel or gb to stop it.

My advice to you is maybe play as a warden against a level 3 warden bot and it will show you its do able. The thing with the sb is the dodge timing is all in the charge, if you try and dodge once he's on the move i believe its harder to dodge, and if that happens when he's in your face then of course he's going to hit you. But it's actually quite risky now for warden to sb out of neutral, almost pointless.

Once in the "vortex" yes it's a little more difficult to evade. But there has to be something the Warden is good at as he really doesn't have much else to offer. I put the "" over vortex because in reality anything you can simply roll out of isn't by definition a 50/50. But we can thank Tru3 for the fifteh fifteh meme.

IF you see a warden sb from neutral, simply dodge back and keep walking back, if its a short charge it will whiff and you get a gb if timed properly. If he holds charge then roll back and your roll end will coincide with the warden sb whiff stop and you again get a simple gb.

Lets also not forget the removal of time snap in this discussion, as of recently i've been getting hit by the weirdest of things so i imagine the windows i'm talking are smaller and in random places lol.

Ok this sounds logic.
Thank u 👍

CrunaCross
09-06-2017, 02:56 PM
50/50 is a very cheap thing in fighting games and it should NOT exist at all. Without exception. Everything should be reactable by skill and not by luck.

Antonioj26
09-06-2017, 02:58 PM
50/50 is a very cheap thing in fighting games and it should NOT exist at all. Without exception. Everything should be reactable by skill and not by luck.

It's not luck, learn to read your opponent.

Kaijudub
09-06-2017, 02:58 PM
50/50 is a very cheap thing in fighting games and it should NOT exist at all. Without exception. Everything should be reactable by skill and not by luck.

It's not a 50/50 if you can roll out of it, please stop spouting mis information.

CrunaCross
09-06-2017, 03:27 PM
nerf the only thing Warden has in his kit? is this a troll post?

Well perhaps Warden should not have "ONLY" that in his kit. Warden is among the characters that need a rework. Not a simple nerf or buff.

UbiNoty
09-07-2017, 01:11 AM
Read through and will definitely pass along your feedback about not just the warden's reliance on vortex spam, but also fundamental kit concerns.

Kaijudub
09-07-2017, 11:15 AM
Read through and will definitely pass along your feedback about not just the warden's reliance on vortex spam, but also fundamental kit concerns.

That would be great, as currently i really don't have any desire to play my main and thus have stopped playing FH.

Could it be possible to give the Warden some of Apolyon's moveset as you already have the animations for it etc? He either needs a couple new things or simply keeping the current nerfs but re instating the late sb cancel could work. IMHO he should be put back in pre nerfs, especially with the glad and other assasins abiltiy to back dash when oos.

know this might cause controversy but i honestly think the OP characters should stay where they are and the rest of the cast is bought up to that level. Its fun when you play something thats strong, its not fun to play something thats weak.

Anyway I know i'm not a massive strimmer or anything, but I'm 40 with the warden and he really is the only reason i play this game. If i can be of any help at all in discussions with devs or anything please feel free to give me a shout.

watsonclan335u
09-08-2017, 12:19 AM
The whiners have already succeeded in nerfing raiders stampede twice, just get it over with already, people won't be happy until every character has exactly the same moveset/speed with the only difference being "skins" that cover the exact same mechanics. So many of the problems with the endless "nerf" cycle are due to the difference in gameplay among platforms. What might be the biggest concern to pc is really a non issue for console and vica versa, preventing a meaningful discussion among a united game community.

psyminion
09-08-2017, 08:12 PM
but in the end, does it really matter?

does anything matter for that matter, because after all we're a bunch of specks on a speck among specks in an infinitely unending void of nothing but specks.

so what does matter anymore?

https://media.giphy.com/media/whzVwunpZUHaU/giphy.gif