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View Full Version : poll:best heroes to fight turtle meta



matt89connor
09-01-2017, 07:55 AM
title

That_guy44
09-01-2017, 08:03 AM
Gladiator

Charmzzz
09-01-2017, 11:57 AM
Any hero with unblockable attack or melee moves from neutral I would say: Gladiator, Warden, Centurion, Lawbringer, Conq, Valk, Raider, Shinobi, Shugoki, etc.

S0Mi_xD
09-01-2017, 01:09 PM
Kensei, Orochi, Berserker, Highlander

Rikuto01.tv
09-01-2017, 01:23 PM
Gladiator destroys it. Still a very vulnerable character though.

Lyskir
09-01-2017, 01:26 PM
Glad, Cent, WL, Warden, PK

Charmzzz
09-01-2017, 01:54 PM
How does PK, Orochi and Berserker, even Kensei, fight turtle meta? They have 0 openers. They can only feint (except Kensei who can whiff into the Top UB), which is countered by an opponent who just blocks. You do understand what turtle meta is, yeah?

Vakris_One
09-01-2017, 02:02 PM
Warlord
Gladiator
Peacekeeper
Centurion
Warden

And basically any character with an unlock exploit such as:
Raider
Nobushi
Warlord again

Lyskir
09-01-2017, 02:05 PM
Warlord
Gladiator
Peacekeeper
Centurion
Warden

And basically any character with an unlock exploit such as:
Raider
Nobushi
Warlord again

i agree but raider? didnt see a unlock raider since season 1

Vakris_One
09-01-2017, 02:22 PM
i agree but raider? didnt see a unlock raider since season 1
I placed him there only becauae his stampede charge is still bugged and you can initiate it with very little running distance. Basically he can unlock, run back one step, turn aound and do a stampede charge. The whole manouver takes close to 1 second to do. It was showcased perfectly in the very first match of the Ubisoft Exploit Tournament between a Raider and a Warlord who both did almost nothing but constantly lock, unlock, lock, unlock, lock, unlock, pull off an exploit, then back to lock, unlock, lock, unlock, lock, unlock.

Tundra 793
09-01-2017, 02:30 PM
How does PK, Orochi and Berserker, even Kensei, fight turtle meta? They have 0 openers. They can only feint (except Kensei who can whiff into the Top UB), which is countered by an opponent who just blocks. You do understand what turtle meta is, yeah?

Unless he's talking about feinting a lot, it's quite possible he's being sarcastic. Berserker is notoriously crap at fighting turtles.

Charmzzz
09-01-2017, 02:33 PM
Unless he's talking about feinting a lot, it's quite possible he's being sarcastic. Berserker is notoriously crap at fighting turtles.

I don't know if that is sarcasm. I have seen PK mentioned alot in this thread. And I can tell you that, as a PK Main, I am facing people who just constantly block my zone attack side and are fast enough to switch and block / parry my first Light. I have absolutely no idea how PK can open up turtles except the feint game - which EVERY hero can do...

I guess those people have problems with PK's themselves and think that higher skill tiers have that, too.

Antonioj26
09-01-2017, 03:06 PM
I don't know if that is sarcasm. I have seen PK mentioned alot in this thread. And I can tell you that, as a PK Main, I am facing people who just constantly block my zone attack side and are fast enough to switch and block / parry my first Light. I have absolutely no idea how PK can open up turtles except the feint game - which EVERY hero can do...

I guess those people have problems with PK's themselves and think that higher skill tiers have that, too.

She's far better than the majority of the people on the list you gave.

Lyskir
09-01-2017, 03:21 PM
She's far better than the majority of the people on the list you gave.

This

Her Zone and Light Attack speed is more than enough to keep her in Top Tier even on PC, not to metion her unlock "techs"

Charmzzz
09-01-2017, 03:26 PM
She's far better than the majority of the people on the list you gave.

Explain please. Fast Attacks does not open up any real turtle, at least not the guys I am facing. They constantly block or parry my Lights if I do not feint a heavy before. Why is my list with heroes that have an UB melee or UB attack from neutral not better to force a reaction from your opponent? Because forcing reactions opens up for errors, like feint an UB heavy into GB the opponents parry attempt. Or UB daze into feinted heavy into GB?

S0Mi_xD
09-01-2017, 03:31 PM
How does PK, Orochi and Berserker, even Kensei, fight turtle meta? They have 0 openers. They can only feint (except Kensei who can whiff into the Top UB), which is countered by an opponent who just blocks. You do understand what turtle meta is, yeah?

Just feint :D (thats part sarcastic part sersious 50/50)

and yeah xD i know what the "turtle meta" is, and i know that 99% of you guys using this term wrong :D

I do only run 3 or 4 times into a turtle (i am luck on this, also talking about 1v1 and 2v2 - on 4v4 i have a team, so turtles do have a harder time)

People using the term turtle meta as an synonym for defensive meta, maybe you think - what is this idiot talking about...- turtleing means to play pure defesive and abuse the defensive meta.
The defesive meta means, that defesive tools/mechanics are much more effective than offensive.
You don't need to turtle to use parry, and parry is currently the most boken defensive tool.
Blocking got fixed pretty well with the higher chip dmg, still i think it needs something else

I am a Berserker main, and those heroes i listed do have a hard time against real turtles, but i learned to play in a different way then those other heroes.
I need to say i do pretty well with berserker, even against really good people ^^.

What i wanna say - people are misguided by the exclamation of the "majority", you can see the same happened with the Centurion topic.
Many people don't even try to adapt to a hero, or don't know how they can do it - as an result they jump on this train and feel safe in this opinion, because many other share their pain etc.

Most of the time it is really just a "get gud" scenario, only that this get good means to overcome your own limits.
In other words, not "get gud" but "get better than gud"

Antonioj26
09-01-2017, 04:18 PM
Explain please. Fast Attacks does not open up any real turtle, at least not the guys I am facing. They constantly block or parry my Lights if I do not feint a heavy before. Why is my list with heroes that have an UB melee or UB attack from neutral not better to force a reaction from your opponent? Because forcing reactions opens up for errors, like feint an UB heavy into GB the opponents parry attempt. Or UB daze into feinted heavy into GB?

If they are fast enough to block your 400ms zones then they are fast enough to dodge 700ms melee attacks.

Lawbringers shove 700ms from neutral and earliest you can initiate from dash is 300ms for a total of 1000ms

Shugo doesn't have an unblockable from neutral unless your talking about his fully charged heavy which is trash

None of valks unblockables lead to damage aside from sweep which requires 2 hits or heavy feint into shield bash. All a free gb if dodged too.

Centurions kick is 600ms and earliest can initiate is 300ms into the dash for 900ms. Jab is 700ms and requires a heavy.

Shinobi require two dashes and is 500ms or 600ms depending if it's a front kick or side kicks. Easy to dodge with the gb mixup gone

Conquerors shield bash yields such low damage that if he misses one and gets gbed he will undo the work of 3 successful ones.


Raider is meh against turtles, the zone is too slow and as long as you wait until the last moment you can dodge the zone or pommel strike altogether.

Vakris_One
09-01-2017, 05:05 PM
Just feint :D (thats part sarcastic part sersious 50/50)

and yeah xD i know what the "turtle meta" is, and i know that 99% of you guys using this term wrong :D

I do only run 3 or 4 times into a turtle (i am luck on this, also talking about 1v1 and 2v2 - on 4v4 i have a team, so turtles do have a harder time)

People using the term turtle meta as an synonym for defensive meta, maybe you think - what is this idiot talking about...- turtleing means to play pure defesive and abuse the defensive meta.
The defesive meta means, that defesive tools/mechanics are much more effective than offensive.
You don't need to turtle to use parry, and parry is currently the most boken defensive tool.
Blocking got fixed pretty well with the higher chip dmg, still i think it needs something else

I am a Berserker main, and those heroes i listed do have a hard time against real turtles, but i learned to play in a different way then those other heroes.
I need to say i do pretty well with berserker, even against really good people ^^.

What i wanna say - people are misguided by the exclamation of the "majority", you can see the same happened with the Centurion topic.
Many people don't even try to adapt to a hero, or don't know how they can do it - as an result they jump on this train and feel safe in this opinion, because many other share their pain etc.

Most of the time it is really just a "get gud" scenario, only that this get good means to overcome your own limits.
In other words, not "get gud" but "get better than gud"
Well that's a big part of the problem of characters like Kensei, Beserker, Conqueror, Orochi, Shugoki and even Highlander to some extent. Anyone playing them has to be better than good when facing someone using a more competitive character with a more versatile toolset. They require you to be twice as good as your opponent but for none of the payoff of being twice as good as your opponent, i.e. you are playing twice as good just to keep up with your opponent's more competitive character rather than outperforming them as should rightfully be the case if all characters were balanced properly. That is a serious problem in my opinion.

Past a certain point it's just not fun to be underperforming simply because your character doesn't have a higher gear. It's like entering a high performance sports car race populated with Bugatti's, Lamborgini's, Ferrari's and Porsche's and you're there with your modified street car, say the Nissan Skyline for example. Sure your street car performs well against the other street cars but it has absolutely no hope of matching the top speed and horsepower of a high performance Ferrari, no matter how much you fill your gas tank with hopes and dreams.

And yet in For Honor currently, modified street cars (i.e. Kensei, Beserker, Orochi, Shugoki, Conq, etc) are running in the same race as high performance sports cars (i.e. Warlord, Warden, Gladiator, Peacekeeper, etc). It's not impossible to win as a "street car" but you have to be up to twice the driver of the guy in the "high performance car". When you look at it that way most people would ditch the "street car" chatacters and go for the "high performance" characters because with the same effort they put into a Kensei and just about manage to win 5 out of 10 duels they can choose a Gladiator instead and be winning 9 out of 10 matches.

That to me is a problem that needs to be addressed at some point.

S0Mi_xD
09-01-2017, 07:02 PM
Well that's a big part of the problem of characters like Kensei, Beserker, Conqueror, Orochi, Shugoki and even Highlander to some extent. Anyone playing them has to be better than good when facing someone using a more competitive character with a more versatile toolset. They require you to be twice as good as your opponent but for none of the payoff of being twice as good as your opponent, i.e. you are playing twice as good just to keep up with your opponent's more competitive character rather than outperforming them as should rightfully be the case if all characters were balanced properly. That is a serious problem in my opinion.

Past a certain point it's just not fun to be underperforming simply because your character doesn't have a higher gear. It's like entering a high performance sports car race populated with Bugatti's, Lamborgini's, Ferrari's and Porsche's and you're there with your modified street car, say the Nissan Skyline for example. Sure your street car performs well against the other street cars but it has absolutely no hope of matching the top speed and horsepower of a high performance Ferrari, no matter how much you fill your gas tank with hopes and dreams.

And yet in For Honor currently, modified street cars (i.e. Kensei, Beserker, Orochi, Shugoki, Conq, etc) are running in the same race as high performance sports cars (i.e. Warlord, Warden, Gladiator, Peacekeeper, etc). It's not impossible to win as a "street car" but you have to be up to twice the driver of the guy in the "high performance car". When you look at it that way most people would ditch the "street car" chatacters and go for the "high performance" characters because with the same effort they put into a Kensei and just about manage to win 5 out of 10 duels they can choose a Gladiator instead and be winning 9 out of 10 matches.

That to me is a problem that needs to be addressed at some point.

Thats right ^^
Now is the question, are the "street car" heroes too bad or the "sports car" heroes too good?

In my opinion, we need to balance the basic mechanics to get out of the defensive meta, and after this buff underperforming heroes and balance all along the balanced game mechanics.