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Mythic MK II
08-29-2017, 02:04 AM
So.... I just had 3 matches against true turtles... I don't see them too often but lately a lot (idk why...)

So, what do I do against them?
They didn't even try to parry. just turtle up and use a light while you try to do anything. a 500ms(?) light is easily countered by using your own faster light.
Granted, they all had a gimmick to their defense. Valk with superior block (no going into off stance after a heavy when they block) Lawbringer with his shove after block (yeah, feinately no way to get in) and some other Valk.

I kinda don't know what to do. THey were smart enough to do a light if I go into OF stance by just holding Right trigger. So... what do I do? Any advice against them?

kweassa1
08-29-2017, 03:29 AM
Honestly, not much.


I'm sure there would be much better combat methods to come, but as of current, (at least for me) the best way I find is to simply go head-on into combat with Offense Form (OF) engaged.


This is because turtles rarely -- if ever -- use attacks that are slow enough to parry easily or counter with Defensive Form (DF) lights. And therefore when it comes to a stand-off there really sin't much to be gained at all for the HL, unless you are simply SUPERIOR to the other guy in parrying/crushing countering opponent attacks.

What the turtles usually do against the Highlander is simply tighten their defenses and ready themselves for Celtic Curse. High-level opponents can actually tell the difference between a straight-up top CeltC and twirl-side CeltC and can parry all three of them independently. I don't know how they do it, but they simply do. So if the Highlander cannot use CeltC freely, then frankly all his other attacks like DF lights or DF heavies are just parry fodder.


So what I learned, is that there is but ONE saving grace for the HL, and that is to make aggressive use of OF lights. If FHDV testings are true, then the HL's OF lights stand at the FASTEST attacks in the game, clocked in @500ms top, 400ms side. This is literally the fastest independent attack in the game except for special/conditional skills such as warden/shinobi/orochi's 2nd light attack in their guaranteed double-hitters (200ms).


If the opponent literally shuts out all your skill from DF, the method I find effective, and currently practicing, is simply gain a bit of distance and go into OF. Show him that you're going into OF.

From that point it seems the opponents usually become a bit more focused on parrying your UB heavies, or dodging MAs like Fomkick or Cabertoss. Rush in with a dash-light. Frankly, the odds are they are NOT going to be able to parry a 500ms top light as you dash forward with a OF light, and the odds of them parrying a side OF light is even lower. Just remember that the initial "rush-in" timing is important, and also you need to take a leap of faith and trust in your OF light, that it's gonna come out faster than the other guy's reaction.


So rush in, force either a hit or a block with your OF light, and It's from that point you can force a reaction that you may exploit.


- force an OF light block/hit → Fomkick → UBheavy
- force an OF light block/hit → opponent dodges → Fomkick cancel → Cabtoss → UBheavy
- force an OF light block/hit → opponent retaliates with light → cut it off with another OF light
- force an OF light block/hit → opponent dodges → GB
(* if you let go of heavy button as OF light activates, you're immediately reverted to DF afterwards without any visual queue -- you can use GB without delay)

- force an OF light block/hit → UBheavy → opponent reacts and parries → feint DF light for crushing counter
(* feinting the OF UBheavy directly reverts you back to DF)

- force an OF light block/hit → UBheavy → opponent reacts and parries → UBheavy cancel Fomkick → UBheavy
(* UBheavies can be directly canceled into Fomkick.. so to do this one, you have to anticipate the opponent's parry)

- force an OF light block/hit → UBheavy → opponent reacts and dodges → UBheavy cancel Cabertoss → UBheavy
(* same principle as above)


...so once you get the OF light blocked or hit upon the opponent, you have a bit of a psychological advantage with a very good variety of mix-ups. The problem is OF lights are very stamina heavy, so some of the longer mixups I've listed above will probably exhaust you when it ends. So you need to manage it a bit and use it in short bursts instead of one long combo -- unless its absolutely necessary.

watsonclan335u
08-29-2017, 09:26 PM
@kweassa: another outstanding, well thought out and informative post, thanks a lot for taking the time once again. Maybe there's an opening for another mod. ;)

kweassa1
08-30-2017, 09:15 AM
So.... I just had 3 matches against true turtles... I don't see them too often but lately a lot (idk why...)

So, what do I do against them?
They didn't even try to parry. just turtle up and use a light while you try to do anything. a 500ms(?) light is easily countered by using your own faster light.
Granted, they all had a gimmick to their defense. Valk with superior block (no going into off stance after a heavy when they block) Lawbringer with his shove after block (yeah, feinately no way to get in) and some other Valk.

I kinda don't know what to do. THey were smart enough to do a light if I go into OF stance by just holding Right trigger. So... what do I do? Any advice against them?

Advice ↓


https://youtu.be/LgXKqHfUpMA

Alustar.
08-30-2017, 11:55 AM
Yeah after seeing that video I started working on feint timings for my attacks.

A tip here, since his attacks are so much slower, he actually has a wide cancel window, so the ability to mess with those timings makes him even more gruesomely effective at the feint game.

UbiNoty
08-31-2017, 01:13 AM
I love it when threads like these pop up. It's like spotting a giant panda in the wild :>
Just helpful positivity (no def meta sarcasm, or HL balance rants).

Let's try and keep this one pure and pristine at least, for as long as we can.

Knight_Raime
08-31-2017, 02:14 AM
Pretty much what kwessa1 posted.
Offensive mode is key because of your mix up potential and the fact that most of the attacks in there are unblockables forcing them to react which is advantageous for you.
and as Kwessa1 pointed out OF side lights are the fastest in the game. which means you can use them in mix ups and basically don't have to worry about being parried.

Stamina management though is key. As if they can do one thing to put you in OOS or you over extend and go OOS they will pressure you really hard.
I've never met a turtle valk so I can't help you there. but a turtle lawbringer I can help with.

The fact that your OF has a lot of unblockables and he's got a super short dodge means you can basically soft feint anything in OF into a kick or a toss and he'd be hard pressed to dodge it. The only thing you need to look out for is your OF light use. because block shove is a thing. But since LB really doesn't have a way in and he entirely relies on his opponent to let him in you can easily abuse the LB. He won't be able to really shove you. and anything he attempts to poke out or parry you can just feint into something else.