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Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 10:54 PM
Sorry this thread is coming later than I said I would post it. The general idea here is what i'd like to see done to assassins as a whole and some kit specific changes in the post defensive meta changes. I am doing assassins because they are the class I know the most.

General:
~when OOS dodges cover less distance/slightly slower
~Light into heavy combo
~soft feint light into heavy
~heavy soft feint into GB


Orochi:
~reduced damage on double top light.
~Third light in his light light light chain is now a heavy that can be feinted
~Riptide strike now completes much faster and has proper dodge properties ala Nobushi's hidden stance. Can be charged and feinted up until a point.
~Bump wind gusts damage up slightly.
~Hurricane blast is guaranteed on a heavy deflect.
~Storm rush now costs a bit more stamina but the animation is faster so it can be reliably used as a whiff punish. Let it be soft feintable into dodge attacks.

Peacekeeper:
~feinting the heavy after light light will cost more stamina to prevent looping (seen as an effective fix on shinobi)
~Be able to soft feint her heavy into a GB mid combo needs to return.
~if her first light connects the second one is slower (like gladiator) if her first light whiffs her second is faster.
~doing her heavy soft feint into gouge now adds a few extra bleed ticks to bump it's own damage. If the target is already bleeding the gouge will make the bleed ticks faster for good burst damage.
~Blocking her zone prevents her from dashing momentarily.
~reverse damage nerf on dodge attacks.

Berzerker:
~lights are not longer interrupted on block.
~Give armor to her left and right dash attacks if soft feinted into.
~slightly nerf heavy attack damage in chains longer than 2 attacks.

Shinobi:
~Ranged heavies on block will still allow shinobi to roll in.
~Change shinobi's animation from being countered at ranged to just being pulled in and staggered slightly. This allows for a light attack punish on almost everyone.
~Zone attack is cancelable like all other multi hit zones (cept centurion which should also be changed)
~Buff his health to 100.
~Bring back the speed of his side double dodge kicks.
~let shinobi light/heavy out of double dodge faster.
~All of shinobi's kicks can now splat.
~Reduce the cost of double dodge but slightly increase the cost of any attack done right out of DD.( excluding kick because they already made it cost more.)
~blocking shins ranged heavy no longer gives a free guardbreak.
~Shinobi's roll in heavy that leads into sickle rain now has armor so it can't be interrupted.
~slightly speed up the back flip animation. It should still be punishable in some instances but be made faster so it works as a dodge.
~slightly increase stamina regeneration for shinobi. but slightly increase the cost of all moves to compensate (ala gladiator)

Why those orochi changes? Orochi is meant to be the truest form of counter attacker. Though currently he only has 1 worthwhile counter which is parry into double light. And parry into heavy occasionally. Most changes aim to make more of his kit whiff punish viable adding to the variety of his kit.

Why those peace keeper changes? she needed to be nerfed a bit because it's far too easy to light light zone cancel anyone to death. However most of her kit in my opinion is focused around bleed as her big form of damage. So I focused on buffing that. Especially since parries won't be giving GB's anymore post defensive patch.

Barely any zerker changes? Berzerker and kensei in my opinion have very solid kits and mix ups who will get stronger with my general listed buffs. However they currently can't open people. And while my changes don't really make it easier for zerker to open directly it does add to her pressure game which is where imo she is focused design wise. If further changes need to be done post defensive meta changes i'm open to it.

I thought you said shinobi was fine/good? I still stand by that. At the same time I understand the other side. I see no reason not to make him a bit better. Gladiator in my opinion is sort of what shinobi seemed like on launch. Lots of mix up options. Both sides nothing was guaranteed. Problem is gladiator is more survivable with less movement. and has good and true mix ups/purposeful harassment tools. Shinobi dies too easily. His kicks serve nothing other than to drain stamina which would be fine. If his kicks were more accessible. So giving them wall splat utility and giving a bit more access to his movements (which is what he's about) should help that. The rest of the changes either bump his survivability directly or indirectly and give him a smidge more to play with in terms of engagements.

I excluded gladiator because he's too new. And I don't make mention on which attacks should be the ones that can soft feint into a heavy or soft feint heavy into GB because I don't believe either need to be on specific ones. Thanks for reading.

UbiJurassic
08-29-2017, 01:16 AM
A great collection of feedback as usual, Knight_Raime. I'll certainly note it down, but I'd also appreciate some thoughts from other players as well on his proposed tweaks. :)

S0Mi_xD
08-29-2017, 02:27 AM
Good ideas,
i would like to give my feedback on all those suggestions, but currently i am to tired to think straight xD (it's 3 am here :D) - i will do it the next day.

But what i can say without thinking (because i went through this maany times, is Berserker.
1. Light uninterruptable on block - i agree, thats a thing i suggested as well but only in combination with the hyperarmor.
2. The hyperarmor isn't a bad idea but it wouldn't be really usefull on those attacks, because they are already for dodging an attack.
3. Lower Chain dmg - Currently Berserkers chain dmg is 12 light(befor they buffed it, it was 9 light dmg) and 20 heavy - i think this is pretty low already, and the combo finisher top heavy with 55 dmg does compensate for the low chain dmg.
So i would like to ask, how much you would lower it?

Here are my thoughts on what Berserker could need without overpower him/her but extending the potential :) - if you are interested, take a look - i would like your feedback on it ^^.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1725953-The-perfect-plan-to-justify-Berserkers-name!!-(summary-of-needed-buffs)



well yes everyone benefits from the parry changes. i'm just saying he'll also lose a decent amount because a majority of his damage is behind his parry punishes.
sense for honor is more like a fencer than a fighter imo I think it's fine to get light damage off of parries. Just not huge damage or something that can lead into huge damage aka gbs.
And to answer you on this from the other thread.

Yeah, thats right, it would be more loss than win for Cent, but i think thats the goal or am i wrong?

And about free light on parry, the problem is - if you get a light, you also get a zone with some heroes, also centurion would get heavy and a double light for orochi, warden, shinobi.
Many people think this would be unfair because some heroes only get a normal light.
Thats why i think to make it pretty fair,
- no free dmg, only stamina dmg
-> parry only as defensive tool
- parry cost stamina (for reducing the abuse/"spam" of parries)
- And giving the chance for a counter attack after a parry, that can only be dodged (similar to LBs shovel punish)

And i am going to bed now xD

Sneaky-Patches
08-29-2017, 08:09 AM
Now that im not replying on my phone, I wanted to respond a bit better to your points, as you put some effort into making good ones. I might just delete my old post to clean up the thread a bit, as it was a wall of text.

OROCHI

I like most of the changes you mentioned.
~Riptide strike could absolutely use a buff. It really does need dodge properties and either a damage buff, or speed it up.
~Wind gust could use a buff too, agree.
~ Storm rush I agree. You should also be able to dodge out of it if you are holding a SR. That way you can bait deflects.
~ Hurricane blast. I dont know... Honestly I think all deflects are fairly underwhelming, but a guaranteed Hurricane blast of of a enemies heavy attack seems incredibly good. I think maybe too good. Maybe a guaranteed Hurricane blast of heavy attacks from off screen, or maybe only on enemies unblockable attacks instead?

ZERKER & PK

Ive played a good few reps with them, but probably not enough that my opinion would mean a lot on the topic, moreso with zerker. That said I think PK needs her light attack spam slowed a bit, and her ZA need some work. But im also happy to see PK receive buffs in other more skill based or reactionary areas like deflect damage, dodge attack, or her special GB stabs.


SHINOBI

~Ranged heavies on block will still allow shinobi to roll in. AGREE
~Change shinobi's animation from being countered at ranged to just being pulled in and staggered slightly. This allows for a light attack punish on almost everyone. AGREE
~Zone attack is cancelable like all other multi hit zones (cept centurion which should also be changed) DISAGREE I Think shinobis zone honestly needs a rework. (ill give my take on it below)
~Buff his health to 100. MAYBE I think shinobi should be squishy, I would rather see shinobis moveset fully realised, and his gadgets buffed before giving health
~Bring back the speed of his side double dodge kicks. AGREE atm you will eat the next heavy after dodging one into a kick, its a trade you always lose.
~let shinobi light/heavy out of double dodge faster. FULLY 110% AGREE
~All of shinobi's kicks can now splat. AGREE This should have been a thing from the start
~Reduce the cost of double dodge but slightly increase the cost of any attack done right out of DD.( excluding kick because they already made it cost more.) AGREE
~blocking shins ranged heavy no longer gives a free guardbreak.AGREE
~Shinobi's roll in heavy that leads into sickle rain now has armor so it can't be interrupted. SURE, but its still a bad move anyway
~slightly speed up the back flip animation. It should still be punishable in some instances but be made faster so it works as a dodge. DISAGREE I Think shinobi needs Iframes for the backflip, front roll & for GB throwing people behind him (the animation where he runs over someone)
~slightly increase stamina regeneration for shinobi. but slightly increase the cost of all moves to compensate (ala gladiator) DISAGREE Shinobi has terrible stam as is. Once you start NEEDING to incorporate his feints wherever you can get them in, you end up running out of stam 1/3 the way through your enemies health on a flawless mixup. Shinobi just flat out needs more stamina in my opinion, not faster regen.

MY THOUGHTS ON SHINOBI

I just hit rep 26 with him and wanted to suggest some different balance changes too. I like yours, but I feel they have done very little to help shinobi in 4v4 modes, and also havent given him some skill based buffs (deflect) and better whiff punishes (kinda like the kick on reaction if its buffed).

~ZONE ATTACKZone Attack honestly needs a redo. It would be great if he could extent his kamas out for a wider zone that can stun opponents back. Currently he does have the worst ZA in the game yet he is the hero that needs it the most, Its the easiest move to parry, low damage, opponents can just ignore it and hit you with top heavies mid ZA while you are also in revenge mode. Its dreadful. Making it cancelable will not fix how bad the first half of this zone is at preventing enemies from just swinging right through you. Making it unparryable will also not fix this issue.

~GADGETS I feel very strongly above everything else, that they need an overhaul. They are dreadful for shinobi. I made a thread on it here http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1728767-Suggestion-to-overhaul-Shinobi-s-feats-(detailed-feedback-mods-please-consider)

~DEFLECT really isnt great. On console nobody uses it either. It also cant be used when you are being attacked like block can, you have to use it from neutral stance. If shinobi is going to keep such low health, then he should have the best deflect by a solid margin, high risk, high reward. Currently zerkers wallsplat, orochis heavy, Gladiators skewer to wall throw to heavy are all way better options, and ive noticed in the last update the guaranteed ranged heavy after shinobis deflect to kick to ranged heavy is now not guaranteed too. Also, Shinobi still gets hit mid deflect by other enemies.
-----Shinobis deflect needs iframes for the deflect and following light attack. Enemies still just mash through you if you do this in a gank. It feels very unrewarding to use in 1vX and frankly theres no point when parry is a more attractive option in every sense.
-----I really think a cool way to buff his deflect would be to allow Shinobi restore close to the same amount of health, at the same tick rate, as the bleed he inflicts on enemies upon deflect. This could make it a little more appealing. Life drain deflect properties.
-----MAYBE THIS? Make the ranged GB after a deflect kick an unblockable attack thats dodgeable for the enemy. Also allow the kick to drain a small amount of stamina and also knock people over if they are then OOS.

~BUGS & QOL CHANGES
-----Allow shinobi to stop attacks with superarmor when he is in revenge mode.
-----Fix so SHINOBI he can switch heroes and his heavies still land.
-----Fix him so his attacks dont miss at point blank range on opponents that have fallen over (Like after revenge parry).
-----Fix reflex guard as it seems janky on console.

~FOR ALL ASSASINS Allow unblockable attacks to be deflected, every hero should have this ability.

Patpuc
08-29-2017, 09:34 AM
buff glad and shinonbi reflex guard

CoyoteXStarrk
08-29-2017, 09:55 AM
I just wanna see light attack spam removed.


Shinobi and PK simply require no effort when they just spam lights

S.J.Lannister
08-29-2017, 10:14 AM
I just wanna see light attack spam removed.


Shinobi and PK simply require no effort when they just spam lights

Agreed.

They have absolutely no risk light attack spam. Low stamina cost, very hard to parry, easy to manage (no effort required).

Also: Shinobi and Gladiator has terrible reflex guard. Especially fighting with Highlander. His heavy attack is slower than Shinobi/Gladiator reflex guard and it hits through.

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:22 AM
A great collection of feedback as usual, Knight_Raime. I'll certainly note it down, but I'd also appreciate some thoughts from other players as well on his proposed tweaks. :)

I forgot to put in the OP about reverting her damage nerf on dodge attacks. but thank you. :F

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:29 AM
Good ideas,
i would like to give my feedback on all those suggestions, but currently i am to tired to think straight xD (it's 3 am here :D) - i will do it the next day.

But what i can say without thinking (because i went through this maany times, is Berserker.
1. Light uninterruptable on block - i agree, thats a thing i suggested as well but only in combination with the hyperarmor.
2. The hyperarmor isn't a bad idea but it wouldn't be really usefull on those attacks, because they are already for dodging an attack.
3. Lower Chain dmg - Currently Berserkers chain dmg is 12 light(befor they buffed it, it was 9 light dmg) and 20 heavy - i think this is pretty low already, and the combo finisher top heavy with 55 dmg does compensate for the low chain dmg.
So i would like to ask, how much you would lower it?

Here are my thoughts on what Berserker could need without overpower him/her but extending the potential :) - if you are interested, take a look - i would like your feedback on it ^^.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1725953-The-perfect-plan-to-justify-Berserkers-name!!-(summary-of-needed-buffs)



And to answer you on this from the other thread.

Yeah, thats right, it would be more loss than win for Cent, but i think thats the goal or am i wrong?

And about free light on parry, the problem is - if you get a light, you also get a zone with some heroes, also centurion would get heavy and a double light for orochi, warden, shinobi.
Many people think this would be unfair because some heroes only get a normal light.
Thats why i think to make it pretty fair,
- no free dmg, only stamina dmg
-> parry only as defensive tool
- parry cost stamina (for reducing the abuse/"spam" of parries)
- And giving the chance for a counter attack after a parry, that can only be dodged (similar to LBs shovel punish)

And i am going to bed now xD

1) The idea of putting armor on zerkers dodges attacks if soft feinted into them would be to help in team fights. But also be sort of like celtic curse from highlander. No idea how much i'd nerf the damage. Your ideas seem interesting but I dunno how practical they would be considering how far in the chain you'd have to go to get those benefits. The primary reason they brought the armor down to it's current access level was because you'd never get there in the standard meta we have currently. Maybe post defensive meta your ideas would work.

2) It is true that we want him to be losing a sizable chunk of his power. I'm just of the opinion that he wouldn't be viable enough if we removed his punishes and toned down other parts of his kit. Hence why I suggested some buffs. And yeah I get you. That's why we'd have to look to see if those options would be an issue or not. Centurion's heavy would be fine in my opinion. Same with orochi's double light. You might not believe me on cent. But with rochi since he doesn't have much to his kit and he's more about whiff punishing I feel him being one of the better off people from a parry post patch would be acceptable. because his lack luster kit offsets that even with my buffs. Where as with centurion it entirely depends on what they do to him.

Point is I feel like rather than making parry that nerfed we just get rid of the big punishes and then handle the slightly stronger punishes case by case individually.

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:47 AM
Now that im not replying on my phone, I wanted to respond a bit better to your points, as you put some effort into making good ones. I might just delete my old post to clean up the thread a bit, as it was a wall of text.

OROCHI

I like most of the changes you mentioned.
~Riptide strike could absolutely use a buff. It really does need dodge properties and either a damage buff, or speed it up.
~Wind gust could use a buff too, agree.
~ Storm rush I agree. You should also be able to dodge out of it if you are holding a SR. That way you can bait deflects.
~ Hurricane blast. I dont know... Honestly I think all deflects are fairly underwhelming, but a guaranteed Hurricane blast of of a enemies heavy attack seems incredibly good. I think maybe too good. Maybe a guaranteed Hurricane blast of heavy attacks from off screen, or maybe only on enemies unblockable attacks instead?

ZERKER & PK

Ive played a good few reps with them, but probably not enough that my opinion would mean a lot on the topic, moreso with zerker. That said I think PK needs her light attack spam slowed a bit, and her ZA need some work. But im also happy to see PK receive buffs in other more skill based or reactionary areas like deflect damage, dodge attack, or her special GB stabs.


SHINOBI

~Ranged heavies on block will still allow shinobi to roll in. AGREE
~Change shinobi's animation from being countered at ranged to just being pulled in and staggered slightly. This allows for a light attack punish on almost everyone. AGREE
~Zone attack is cancelable like all other multi hit zones (cept centurion which should also be changed) DISAGREE I Think shinobis zone honestly needs a rework. (ill give my take on it below)
~Buff his health to 100. MAYBE I think shinobi should be squishy, I would rather see shinobis moveset fully realised, and his gadgets buffed before giving health
~Bring back the speed of his side double dodge kicks. AGREE atm you will eat the next heavy after dodging one into a kick, its a trade you always lose.
~let shinobi light/heavy out of double dodge faster. FULLY 110% AGREE
~All of shinobi's kicks can now splat. AGREE This should have been a thing from the start
~Reduce the cost of double dodge but slightly increase the cost of any attack done right out of DD.( excluding kick because they already made it cost more.) AGREE
~blocking shins ranged heavy no longer gives a free guardbreak.AGREE
~Shinobi's roll in heavy that leads into sickle rain now has armor so it can't be interrupted. SURE, but its still a bad move anyway
~slightly speed up the back flip animation. It should still be punishable in some instances but be made faster so it works as a dodge. DISAGREE I Think shinobi needs Iframes for the backflip, front roll & for GB throwing people behind him (the animation where he runs over someone)
~slightly increase stamina regeneration for shinobi. but slightly increase the cost of all moves to compensate (ala gladiator) DISAGREE Shinobi has terrible stam as is. Once you start NEEDING to incorporate his feints wherever you can get them in, you end up running out of stam 1/3 the way through your enemies health on a flawless mixup. Shinobi just flat out needs more stamina in my opinion, not faster regen.

MY THOUGHTS ON SHINOBI

I just hit rep 26 with him and wanted to suggest some different balance changes too. I like yours, but I feel they have done very little to help shinobi in 4v4 modes, and also havent given him some skill based buffs (deflect) and better whiff punishes (kinda like the kick on reaction if its buffed).

~ZONE ATTACKZone Attack honestly needs a redo. It would be great if he could extent his kamas out for a wider zone that can stun opponents back. Currently he does have the worst ZA in the game yet he is the hero that needs it the most, Its the easiest move to parry, low damage, opponents can just ignore it and hit you with top heavies mid ZA while you are also in revenge mode. Its dreadful. Making it cancelable will not fix how bad the first half of this zone is at preventing enemies from just swinging right through you. Making it unparryable will also not fix this issue.

~GADGETS I feel very strongly above everything else, that they need an overhaul. They are dreadful for shinobi. I made a thread on it here http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1728767-Suggestion-to-overhaul-Shinobi-s-feats-(detailed-feedback-mods-please-consider)

~DEFLECT really isnt great. On console nobody uses it either. It also cant be used when you are being attacked like block can, you have to use it from neutral stance. If shinobi is going to keep such low health, then he should have the best deflect by a solid margin, high risk, high reward. Currently zerkers wallsplat, orochis heavy, Gladiators skewer to wall throw to heavy are all way better options, and ive noticed in the last update the guaranteed ranged heavy after shinobis deflect to kick to ranged heavy is now not guaranteed too. Also, Shinobi still gets hit mid deflect by other enemies.
-----Shinobis deflect needs iframes for the deflect and following light attack. Enemies still just mash through you if you do this in a gank. It feels very unrewarding to use in 1vX and frankly theres no point when parry is a more attractive option in every sense.
-----I really think a cool way to buff his deflect would be to allow Shinobi restore close to the same amount of health, at the same tick rate, as the bleed he inflicts on enemies upon deflect. This could make it a little more appealing. Life drain deflect properties.
-----MAYBE THIS? Make the ranged GB after a deflect kick an unblockable attack thats dodgeable for the enemy. Also allow the kick to drain a small amount of stamina and also knock people over if they are then OOS.

~BUGS & QOL CHANGES
-----Allow shinobi to stop attacks with superarmor when he is in revenge mode.
-----Fix so SHINOBI he can switch heroes and his heavies still land.
-----Fix him so his attacks dont miss at point blank range on opponents that have fallen over (Like after revenge parry).
-----Fix reflex guard as it seems janky on console.

~FOR ALL ASSASINS Allow unblockable attacks to be deflected, every hero should have this ability.

Orochi feedback:
As someone who avidly goes for deflects myself deflecting a heavy is actually pretty difficult. Their animations vary a lot more visually (which is what I usually go off of) and their speeds also vary a lot too. Most lights are in the 500-600 range so it's far easier to attempt a deflect there. Because of how varied heavies are I think getting a guaranteed hurricane blast would be more than fair. Especially given that heavies are used for feint baiting or parrying or in my buffs in general soft feints. Deflecting an unblockable is not do-able if I understand things because deflecting is considered a block in some properties. and unblockables can't be blocked in any fashion. I personally don't think they need to be deflectable since in pretty much any case you have a realistic chance to dodge the unblockable parrying it would be more advantageous anyway. Your idea on dodging out of a storm rush seems neat though. I'll need to think on that.

PK feedback: yeah that's why I made the suggestions I did.

Shinobi feedback: First you're 100% right. My feedback isn't based at 4v4 really much at all since I don't play it.
I don't think shinobi getting a new zone is really something realistic from the team. It's possible I suppose. But being able to cancel it at the bare minimum means you can theoretically get punished less often/less harshly. Bad move as in the move itself? Or bad move as in a bad idea to make my suggestion happen? I personally don't think giving it full dodge properties is a good thing considering you have access to a back flip on hit attacks or whiffed attacks. On top of the fact that it covers a good bit of distance. Roughly half the cast (pre season 3) has that ability to punish your back flip after you whiff a kick or whiff an attack. and even fewer poses a way to punish both of those.

I feel that his flip should totally be punishable. But i'm fine with it being harder to punish. Which is why I suggested the animation speed up thing. I can't really comment on his feats. As I don't play 4v4. And I feel any feedback I would make on your suggestions there wouldn't be doing them justice. Honestly deflect isn't used much (in general) for 2 reasons. In most cases it's not comparable to a parry punish. And because it puts you at more of a risk than a parry. Once parries are nerfed we just need to make deflect a tiny bit better. Which is why I gave deflect pointers on orochi's changes. If shinobi is going to get anything off of a deflect more than what he has now i'd rather see it be something stamina related. Like say for a small period of time his stamina regens faster. I don't really quite understand why shinobi should be the only person who can counter armor in revenge mode. I personally don't struggle with reflex guard. can you be more specific?

I don't think a larger stamina pool is a good idea. Things become spammable then. The reason gladiator works so well is that he's got a mix of both regen and a pool. But his moves cost more as a result. This is why I made stamina based suggestions and then tied it up with the last point you disagreed with. I wouldn't mind if his stamina pool was bumped up slightly. But I don't think he needs a large one. More so a faster regen. Simply because he's got the movement tools to stay at arms reach away. Gladiator and centurion don't. So them having larger pools makes sense.

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:49 AM
buff glad and shinonbi reflex guard

I don't think that's needed. Shinobi has plenty of movement. blocking should be your last resort. gladiator has access to a move that creates space for him. and he can harass with stamina drain moves which lessen the amount of attacks coming his way.

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:50 AM
I just wanna see light attack spam removed.


Shinobi and PK simply require no effort when they just spam lights

well my suggestions more or less handle that for pk. Shinobi light spam doesn't really work out in my experience. it's low damage anyway. if it's killing you that consistently perhaps you need to change up something about your method of approach?

Knight_Raime
08-29-2017, 10:52 AM
Agreed.

They have absolutely no risk light attack spam. Low stamina cost, very hard to parry, easy to manage (no effort required).

Also: Shinobi and Gladiator has terrible reflex guard. Especially fighting with Highlander. His heavy attack is slower than Shinobi/Gladiator reflex guard and it hits through.

You're not supposed to really be blocking on either hero. Shinobi has the tools to maintain distance rather easily. And gladiator can stop lots of highlander attacks with his toe poke which also create distance. Highlander is also very stamina hungry. And gladiator has several bashes that keep him down stamina wise.

S0Mi_xD
08-29-2017, 10:20 PM
General:
~when OOS dodges cover less distance/slightly slower
~Light into heavy combo
~soft feint light into heavy
~heavy soft feint into GB

Orochi:
~reduced damage on double top light.
~Third light in his light light light chain is now a heavy that can be feinted
~Riptide strike now completes much faster and has proper dodge properties ala Nobushi's hidden stance. Can be charged and feinted up until a point.
~Bump wind gusts damage up slightly.
~Hurricane blast is guaranteed on a heavy deflect.
~Storm rush now costs a bit more stamina but the animation is faster so it can be reliably used as a whiff punish. Let it be soft feintable into dodge attacks.

Peacekeeper:
~feinting the heavy after light light will cost more stamina to prevent looping (seen as an effective fix on shinobi)
~Be able to soft feint her heavy into a GB mid combo needs to return.
~if her first light connects the second one is slower (like gladiator) if her first light whiffs her second is faster.
~doing her heavy soft feint into gouge now adds a few extra bleed ticks to bump it's own damage. If the target is already bleeding the gouge will make the bleed ticks faster for good burst damage.
~Blocking her zone prevents her from dashing momentarily.
~reverse damage nerf on dodge attacks.

Shinobi:
~Ranged heavies on block will still allow shinobi to roll in.
~Change shinobi's animation from being countered at ranged to just being pulled in and staggered slightly. This allows for a light attack punish on almost everyone.
~Zone attack is cancelable like all other multi hit zones (cept centurion which should also be changed)
~Buff his health to 100.
~Bring back the speed of his side double dodge kicks.
~let shinobi light/heavy out of double dodge faster.
~All of shinobi's kicks can now splat.
~Reduce the cost of double dodge but slightly increase the cost of any attack done right out of DD.( excluding kick because they already made it cost more.)
~blocking shins ranged heavy no longer gives a free guardbreak.
~Shinobi's roll in heavy that leads into sickle rain now has armor so it can't be interrupted.
~slightly speed up the back flip animation. It should still be punishable in some instances but be made faster so it works as a dodge.
~slightly increase stamina regeneration for shinobi. but slightly increase the cost of all moves to compensate (ala gladiator)
.

About the General changes, we already talked ^^ - and i think we can agree those are things that evey hero could need, so making those to basic game mechanic (like GB, Feint etc) wouldn't be bad.

Orochi:
- double top light dmg reduction, i do agree on, especially if parry reward would change into a light.
- some more chains are always a good idea for some variety (would also be usefull for other heroes)
- agree with riptide changes, it is really hard to use, but therefor it would need a higher stamina consumption
- wind gusts dmg is ok with 25 but wouldn't mind if goes up to 28
- hurricance blast shouldn't be guaranteed in general, it is good how it is now, it can be softfeinted into wind gust or GB, it also has Hyperarmor, but maybe it could initiate abit faster because currently, i have no problems to dodge it on consol
- i agree on Stormrush, but i think the softfeint into dodgeattacks would be abit to much

PK:
- i do not agree on reverse dmg nerf on dodge attacks, they are fast and the strongest dodgeattacks in game with 30 and 35 dmg
- i do think, that bleed should work different in general
In my opinion bleed should be slowed down and reduced on PK, Nobushi and Shinobi (i don't count valk because she has only one move to apply bleed, and it is a counterattack)
~ bleed slower and lower dmg
~ but if you add a certain amount of bleed dmg (let's say 35 bleed would be the cap), if you reach the maximum bleed, the 35 dmg will be released at ones and the bleed "counter" starts again
but (only as an example) if you don't hit the 35 bleed, it will be 1 dmg per second for each bleed point - so if you have 30 bleed, you lose those 30 dmg in 30 seconds
-> this would also give a small chance against those player who only apply bleed and run away

Shinobi:
Agree on most of those points.
- 100 hp and ranged counter = pulled to the enemy instead of being thrown to the ground (had the same thoughts on this ^^)
- about mulitattack zone not cancelable -- you forgot bersereker :D
- and the hyperarmor on the heavy that leads into sickle rain .... mh not sure about this, could be abit to much, but thats a thing we would need to see in action.

S0Mi_xD
08-29-2017, 10:32 PM
1) The idea of putting armor on zerkers dodges attacks if soft feinted into them would be to help in team fights. But also be sort of like celtic curse from highlander. No idea how much i'd nerf the damage. Your ideas seem interesting but I dunno how practical they would be considering how far in the chain you'd have to go to get those benefits. The primary reason they brought the armor down to it's current access level was because you'd never get there in the standard meta we have currently. Maybe post defensive meta your ideas would work.

2) It is true that we want him to be losing a sizable chunk of his power. I'm just of the opinion that he wouldn't be viable enough if we removed his punishes and toned down other parts of his kit. Hence why I suggested some buffs. And yeah I get you. That's why we'd have to look to see if those options would be an issue or not. Centurion's heavy would be fine in my opinion. Same with orochi's double light. You might not believe me on cent. But with rochi since he doesn't have much to his kit and he's more about whiff punishing I feel him being one of the better off people from a parry post patch would be acceptable. because his lack luster kit offsets that even with my buffs. Where as with centurion it entirely depends on what they do to him.

Point is I feel like rather than making parry that nerfed we just get rid of the big punishes and then handle the slightly stronger punishes case by case individually.

1. It would help abit in team fights, i had moments, where my spin chops where interrupted, but this is pretty rare. (thats just my experience)

I already considered meta changes into my berserker suggestion. I know, it is really hard to get such a chain of, but that's why it is rewarded with such a huge buff.
Also, it would need tests, to see if 4 hits are realistic or impossible to do with the speedbuff from the 3rd chain.
But thats only for some infinite chain changes, the changes for other attacks like slashing rush etc. are more like fixes.

2.
Yeah ^^ - that's the point - we players need to play with such changes for a certain time to give proper feedback on it :)
But if such a PTR only happens on PC (where the lowest playerbase is settled) it would exlude a huge part of the playerbase and also consols still have the framerate differencen, that can bring other issues then PC.


Adapting the reward for parry to each hero individually, would be the best way... but i am not sure if the Devs would take the needed time and actually do so ... My experience with For Honor changes are, that they take the easiest/fastest way to fix/change something..

Sneaky-Patches
08-30-2017, 12:01 AM
Orochi feedback:
As someone who avidly goes for deflects myself deflecting a heavy is actually pretty difficult. Their animations vary a lot more visually (which is what I usually go off of) and their speeds also vary a lot too. Most lights are in the 500-600 range so it's far easier to attempt a deflect there. Because of how varied heavies are I think getting a guaranteed hurricane blast would be more than fair. Especially given that heavies are used for feint baiting or parrying or in my buffs in general soft feints. Deflecting an unblockable is not do-able if I understand things because deflecting is considered a block in some properties. and unblockables can't be blocked in any fashion. I personally don't think they need to be deflectable since in pretty much any case you have a realistic chance to dodge the unblockable parrying it would be more advantageous anyway. Your idea on dodging out of a storm rush seems neat though. I'll need to think on that.

PK feedback: yeah that's why I made the suggestions I did.

Shinobi feedback: First you're 100% right. My feedback isn't based at 4v4 really much at all since I don't play it.
I don't think shinobi getting a new zone is really something realistic from the team. It's possible I suppose. But being able to cancel it at the bare minimum means you can theoretically get punished less often/less harshly. Bad move as in the move itself? Or bad move as in a bad idea to make my suggestion happen? I personally don't think giving it full dodge properties is a good thing considering you have access to a back flip on hit attacks or whiffed attacks. On top of the fact that it covers a good bit of distance. Roughly half the cast (pre season 3) has that ability to punish your back flip after you whiff a kick or whiff an attack. and even fewer poses a way to punish both of those.

I feel that his flip should totally be punishable. But i'm fine with it being harder to punish. Which is why I suggested the animation speed up thing. I can't really comment on his feats. As I don't play 4v4. And I feel any feedback I would make on your suggestions there wouldn't be doing them justice. Honestly deflect isn't used much (in general) for 2 reasons. In most cases it's not comparable to a parry punish. And because it puts you at more of a risk than a parry. Once parries are nerfed we just need to make deflect a tiny bit better. Which is why I gave deflect pointers on orochi's changes. If shinobi is going to get anything off of a deflect more than what he has now i'd rather see it be something stamina related. Like say for a small period of time his stamina regens faster. I don't really quite understand why shinobi should be the only person who can counter armor in revenge mode. I personally don't struggle with reflex guard. can you be more specific?

I don't think a larger stamina pool is a good idea. Things become spammable then. The reason gladiator works so well is that he's got a mix of both regen and a pool. But his moves cost more as a result. This is why I made stamina based suggestions and then tied it up with the last point you disagreed with. I wouldn't mind if his stamina pool was bumped up slightly. But I don't think he needs a large one. More so a faster regen. Simply because he's got the movement tools to stay at arms reach away. Gladiator and centurion don't. So them having larger pools makes sense.



Ok, so I think its probably good that we are approaching balance at two very different angles (I think). You are talking about shinobi balance in 1v1 on PC, and I am talking about shinobi balance in 4v4 on console.

~So when I said the move was bad (frontroll into sickle rain), I meant that the move is not useful, and giving it hyperarmor wouldnt really matter because its never gonig to land in a million years. People just dodge as soon as you roll in, or they just block your attack. Ive never once had anyone try light attack me out of that attack, and ive landed it so seldom I just never use it anymore.

~Zone Attack. I know the team said they wouldnt redo moves. But I feel this is one of those cases where they could make an exception. If they made it cancellable in 1v1 I guess it would be upgraded to just a bad, but semi useful ZA, and may be fine. But in 4v4, having a bad ZA will absolutely make or break a hero. Its the ONLY tool you have to punish a gank squad that gets over ambitious, and create some breathing room in revenge mode. Even kenseis ZA serves a purpose to push players back (although it is still a bad ZA too). Shinobis ZA does not stagger people back, it is safely ignored by 2/3 people ganking you, and they can 100-0 hit you (when you are in full revenge mode + full health) before you have completed just one ZA. Ontop of this it is tremendously weak even in revenge, it is a lengthy animation, and it is also debatably the easiest move in the game to parry. Because shinobi has no way at all to punish a gank squad for all coming in spamming unblockables, unlike pretty much everyone else to a varying degree, you really cant last long with an incomplete kit compared to everyone else.

~iFrames So I know you said the backflip should be quicker, and I can understand a reluctance to give shinobis flip iframes in 1v1 duels. But I wanted to put my case forward why he needs this in 4v4 modes. All other assasins can immediately dodge right after attacking an enemy, and all other assasins ALSO have dodge attacks ontop of this, (also higher health, better guard, better movesets for 1vX, and generally better gadgets). Shinobi has two options following an immediate attack 1) Backflip {bad choice because enemy attacks actually homing missile track you mid backflip} 2) Stay completely still and attempt to block the incoming tidal wave of attacks {not a good choice as that generally means youll get GB, bashed or stunned to death even if you succeed in parrying every attack}. Actually ill just upload a clip here showcasing what I mean about backflip (and a second clip at the end ill talk about after this too)


https://youtu.be/YvwXs3hF9sc

In the first clip, this is a good example of how almost every single outnumbered fight goes down. Despite even parrying attackers, you can NEVER deal damage without taking damage from the other enemy, (something all other heroes either have the health for, or the moveset & ZA to avoid). Go to light attack one enemy after parrying both? get hit by the other... Go to backflip? Always 100% of the time hit by the other enemy... Need a ZA to create some space? (like I needed at the end of that clip) Cant, yours is a death sentence... Deflect? nope, youll get hit mid deflect by the other enemy and its weak... the other 95% of his moveset is far to slow or useless, and attempting any other moves means you will get hit with a top heavy... Kick? Far too slow... Distance and ranged attack? No chance, the other enemy will have run to you and hit you with a top heavy while your still in animation...

Shinobi imo absolutely needs iframes on flips (and probably the GB throw forward & behind{but not left or right}) so he can stay mobile, the kit frankly dosent work in 4v4 without some of these needed tweaks. But I also wonder would giving him iframes on flips break him in 1v1 though? I Dont want to see some exploitable Iframe flip become a thing either, so I wonder is there a way to implement it so we can find a middle ground? Or a way it could be implemented to avoid exploitation?

~Knockdown punishes in 1vX Just onto the second clip ( I know im not playing well too, but just as an example), this is just showing how broken and unrewarding his knockdown punishes are (also how you can barely get a window to attack anyone even when you parry people to ground). Most of the time you can barely get a single light attack on anyone on the ground, and almost always your heavy attacks just whiff at point blank range, and more getting hit mid backflip... Not to mention, as shinobi, you have no max damage OOS punish, or wallsplat punish like every single other hero. There is actually no reason to get anyone out of stamina, because you inflict the same damage from a regular GB as you do from throwing them to ground (actually throwing them to ground is worse because you mostly just whiff through people).

~Stamina as for stamina, im not saying he needs some 200% buff, but I think his stam pool does need a buff. Right now in dominion or elimination, you have to be able to kill someone very quickly, you just cant hang around waiting for your stam to replenish 4 times over, because the longer you are fighting that one person, that means very soon you are going to get his friend show up and slam you. I think shinobi runs out of stam way to fast, and it results in this outcome all the time. Not to mention just parrying a shinobis single kick into ranged heavy leaves them fully out of stam (and on the ground) No other hero can get 100% drained of stam like that, (and lose half their health too) thats crazy.

~Deflect Again I stand by the fact it just needs to be better. You are advocating to make both of orochis deflects way better (and im not against making them better), when I play orochi I consider his deflect the best in the game, you can also feint it into heaps of stuff like a GB, a storm rush or dodge attack, and when you are getting ganked in revenge, you can nearly one-shot enemies with heavy deflect, (whereas shinobi removes 1.5 bars of health). Yet shinobis risk due to having much lower health, does not reward him with the best deflect, I dont see that as being balanced at all. Thats not in line with a high risk, high reward playstyle. I get the same (or close to) damage just spamming a single light with its guaranteed second, as I do risking attempting a deflect (often on a heavy as thats all you can react to on console half the time). Stamina gain or drain on deflect is a "nothing" buff, just there to say "look I buffed something, hes fine now". I think it needs dodge properties for 4v4 as a must (all assasins with a light attack or fast heavy attack deflects could really use some dodge properties or iframes in their deflect animation imo), and could use a life drain property or damage buff.

I mean, at the moment, have you ever heard a single person complain; wow that shinobi is OP, he just deflected me 9 times in a row and killed me!? Considering literally everything in this game has been called OP down to the minions themselves, with the exception of deflects, I do think they could use a buff. And I think whoever takes the biggest risk in terms of health pool, deserves the biggest reward. If they release another hero with 1.5 bars of health, then their deflects should be better than everyones...

Anyway thats my thoughts on the 4v4 side. I do look forward to seeing changes though, whatever way they decide to go, hopefully they can get past the defensive meta stuff sooner rather than later.

Knight_Raime
08-30-2017, 12:30 AM
About the General changes, we already talked ^^ - and i think we can agree those are things that evey hero could need, so making those to basic game mechanic (like GB, Feint etc) wouldn't be bad.

Orochi:
- double top light dmg reduction, i do agree on, especially if parry reward would change into a light.
- some more chains are always a good idea for some variety (would also be usefull for other heroes)
- agree with riptide changes, it is really hard to use, but therefor it would need a higher stamina consumption
- wind gusts dmg is ok with 25 but wouldn't mind if goes up to 28
- hurricance blast shouldn't be guaranteed in general, it is good how it is now, it can be softfeinted into wind gust or GB, it also has Hyperarmor, but maybe it could initiate abit faster because currently, i have no problems to dodge it on consol
- i agree on Stormrush, but i think the softfeint into dodgeattacks would be abit to much

PK:
- i do not agree on reverse dmg nerf on dodge attacks, they are fast and the strongest dodgeattacks in game with 30 and 35 dmg
- i do think, that bleed should work different in general
In my opinion bleed should be slowed down and reduced on PK, Nobushi and Shinobi (i don't count valk because she has only one move to apply bleed, and it is a counterattack)
~ bleed slower and lower dmg
~ but if you add a certain amount of bleed dmg (let's say 35 bleed would be the cap), if you reach the maximum bleed, the 35 dmg will be released at ones and the bleed "counter" starts again
but (only as an example) if you don't hit the 35 bleed, it will be 1 dmg per second for each bleed point - so if you have 30 bleed, you lose those 30 dmg in 30 seconds
-> this would also give a small chance against those player who only apply bleed and run away

Shinobi:
Agree on most of those points.
- 100 hp and ranged counter = pulled to the enemy instead of being thrown to the ground (had the same thoughts on this ^^)
- about mulitattack zone not cancelable -- you forgot bersereker :D
- and the hyperarmor on the heavy that leads into sickle rain .... mh not sure about this, could be abit to much, but thats a thing we would need to see in action.


1. It would help abit in team fights, i had moments, where my spin chops where interrupted, but this is pretty rare. (thats just my experience)

I already considered meta changes into my berserker suggestion. I know, it is really hard to get such a chain of, but that's why it is rewarded with such a huge buff.
Also, it would need tests, to see if 4 hits are realistic or impossible to do with the speedbuff from the 3rd chain.
But thats only for some infinite chain changes, the changes for other attacks like slashing rush etc. are more like fixes.

2.
Yeah ^^ - that's the point - we players need to play with such changes for a certain time to give proper feedback on it :)
But if such a PTR only happens on PC (where the lowest playerbase is settled) it would exlude a huge part of the playerbase and also consols still have the framerate differencen, that can bring other issues then PC.


Adapting the reward for parry to each hero individually, would be the best way... but i am not sure if the Devs would take the needed time and actually do so ... My experience with For Honor changes are, that they take the easiest/fastest way to fix/change something..


I thought wind gust was like 20 damage. when was it changed? or am I just blanking here. I only suggested the buff to it's damage to make it a comparable option to parry post defensive changes. I disagree. I don't think you should be able to escape someone countering you like that. Double rolling if done fast enough trumps anything you could do save soft feint into storm rush however that's extremely hard to do and doesn't catch all people. I already explained why I feel this way about hurricane blast to sneaky patches. Perhaps look at that reply?
I really don't agree with any of your feedback on pk. She's about bleed. making it worse when it was already nerfed just doesn't feel good. I excluded zerker because didn't they make it so it can't be parried as much?

I think they would considering the pushes they are trying to make (or at least claim openly about their dedication.)

Knight_Raime
08-30-2017, 12:45 AM
Ok, so I think its probably good that we are approaching balance at two very different angles (I think). You are talking about shinobi balance in 1v1 on PC, and I am talking about shinobi balance in 4v4 on console.

~So when I said the move was bad (frontroll into sickle rain), I meant that the move is not useful, and giving it hyperarmor wouldnt really matter because its never gonig to land in a million years. People just dodge as soon as you roll in, or they just block your attack. Ive never once had anyone try light attack me out of that attack, and ive landed it so seldom I just never use it anymore.

~Zone Attack. I know the team said they wouldnt redo moves. But I feel this is one of those cases where they could make an exception. If they made it cancellable in 1v1 I guess it would be upgraded to just a bad, but semi useful ZA, and may be fine. But in 4v4, having a bad ZA will absolutely make or break a hero. Its the ONLY tool you have to punish a gank squad that gets over ambitious, and create some breathing room in revenge mode. Even kenseis ZA serves a purpose to push players back (although it is still a bad ZA too). Shinobis ZA does not stagger people back, it is safely ignored by 2/3 people ganking you, and they can 100-0 hit you (when you are in full revenge mode + full health) before you have completed just one ZA. Ontop of this it is tremendously weak even in revenge, it is a lengthy animation, and it is also debatably the easiest move in the game to parry. Because shinobi has no way at all to punish a gank squad for all coming in spamming unblockables, unlike pretty much everyone else to a varying degree, you really cant last long with an incomplete kit compared to everyone else.

~iFrames So I know you said the backflip should be quicker, and I can understand a reluctance to give shinobis flip iframes in 1v1 duels. But I wanted to put my case forward why he needs this in 4v4 modes. All other assasins can immediately dodge right after attacking an enemy, and all other assasins ALSO have dodge attacks ontop of this, (also higher health, better guard, better movesets for 1vX, and generally better gadgets). Shinobi has two options following an immediate attack 1) Backflip {bad choice because enemy attacks actually homing missile track you mid backflip} 2) Stay completely still and attempt to block the incoming tidal wave of attacks {not a good choice as that generally means youll get GB, bashed or stunned to death even if you succeed in parrying every attack}. Actually ill just upload a clip here showcasing what I mean about backflip (and a second clip at the end ill talk about after this too)


https://youtu.be/YvwXs3hF9sc

In the first clip, this is a good example of how almost every single outnumbered fight goes down. Despite even parrying attackers, you can NEVER deal damage without taking damage from the other enemy, (something all other heroes either have the health for, or the moveset & ZA to avoid). Go to light attack one enemy after parrying both? get hit by the other... Go to backflip? Always 100% of the time hit by the other enemy... Need a ZA to create some space? (like I needed at the end of that clip) Cant, yours is a death sentence... Deflect? nope, youll get hit mid deflect by the other enemy and its weak... the other 95% of his moveset is far to slow or useless, and attempting any other moves means you will get hit with a top heavy... Kick? Far too slow... Distance and ranged attack? No chance, the other enemy will have run to you and hit you with a top heavy while your still in animation...

Shinobi imo absolutely needs iframes on flips (and probably the GB throw forward & behind{but not left or right}) so he can stay mobile, the kit frankly dosent work in 4v4 without some of these needed tweaks. But I also wonder would giving him iframes on flips break him in 1v1 though? I Dont want to see some exploitable Iframe flip become a thing either, so I wonder is there a way to implement it so we can find a middle ground? Or a way it could be implemented to avoid exploitation?

~Knockdown punishes in 1vX Just onto the second clip ( I know im not playing well too, but just as an example), this is just showing how broken and unrewarding his knockdown punishes are (also how you can barely get a window to attack anyone even when you parry people to ground). Most of the time you can barely get a single light attack on anyone on the ground, and almost always your heavy attacks just whiff at point blank range, and more getting hit mid backflip... Not to mention, as shinobi, you have no max damage OOS punish, or wallsplat punish like every single other hero. There is actually no reason to get anyone out of stamina, because you inflict the same damage from a regular GB as you do from throwing them to ground (actually throwing them to ground is worse because you mostly just whiff through people).

~Stamina as for stamina, im not saying he needs some 200% buff, but I think his stam pool does need a buff. Right now in dominion or elimination, you have to be able to kill someone very quickly, you just cant hang around waiting for your stam to replenish 4 times over, because the longer you are fighting that one person, that means very soon you are going to get his friend show up and slam you. I think shinobi runs out of stam way to fast, and it results in this outcome all the time. Not to mention just parrying a shinobis single kick into ranged heavy leaves them fully out of stam (and on the ground) No other hero can get 100% drained of stam like that, (and lose half their health too) thats crazy.

~Deflect Again I stand by the fact it just needs to be better. You are advocating to make both of orochis deflects way better (and im not against making them better), when I play orochi I consider his deflect the best in the game, you can also feint it into heaps of stuff like a GB, a storm rush or dodge attack, and when you are getting ganked in revenge, you can nearly one-shot enemies with heavy deflect, (whereas shinobi removes 1.5 bars of health). Yet shinobis risk due to having much lower health, does not reward him with the best deflect, I dont see that as being balanced at all. Thats not in line with a high risk, high reward playstyle. I get the same (or close to) damage just spamming a single light with its guaranteed second, as I do risking attempting a deflect (often on a heavy as thats all you can react to on console half the time). Stamina gain or drain on deflect is a "nothing" buff, just there to say "look I buffed something, hes fine now". I think it needs dodge properties for 4v4 as a must (all assasins with a light attack or fast heavy attack deflects could really use some dodge properties or iframes in their deflect animation imo), and could use a life drain property or damage buff.

I mean, at the moment, have you ever heard a single person complain; wow that shinobi is OP, he just deflected me 9 times in a row and killed me!? Considering literally everything in this game has been called OP down to the minions themselves, with the exception of deflects, I do think they could use a buff. And I think whoever takes the biggest risk in terms of health pool, deserves the biggest reward. If they release another hero with 1.5 bars of health, then their deflects should be better than everyones...

Anyway thats my thoughts on the 4v4 side. I do look forward to seeing changes though, whatever way they decide to go, hopefully they can get past the defensive meta stuff sooner rather than later.

Just a minor correction i'm not on pc. I'm a console player on the xbox one. But I do mainly duel. I personally don't struggle with lights outside pk/valk and even then because of a monitor I occasionally get to use I don't struggle as bad. I can pretty much block most on reaction from those 2 now. Anyway. on to your points:

I thought armor would be a good solution to the fact that people dodge attack out of it. So you'd eat the hit but still catch them. at least that's how i'm picturing it in my mind.
I'm not really against him getting a new zone. Just saying I doubt they'd go that far. From my experiences on shinobi I never have attacks track me on back flip sans goki's headbutt and orochi's dodge attack (from memory.) Potentially the start up frames could give I frames but the bulk of the animation remains the same. That way in a gank fight against a shin the back flip still gets him through tight spaces if they are just mashing attacks at you instead of timing them.

I thought it was possible to get a ranged heavy on an OOS opponent? Kind of why I said all of his kicks should splat people. that way he can get damage in that way. Well as I said. i'm not opposed to his pool getting a slight bump. The devs just have to be careful because I don't want to see him going back to spammed kicks. I still think giving him a faster regen would be more beneficial in the long run. But that's probably due to how I specifically play him and the mode i'm in. We could probably do both if the numbers are right.

Again not really against him getting a better deflect. Just don't know the right way to do it without making it pretty insane. Shin even when he was first shown was seen as being pretty weak in 4v4 basically relying on being ignored and attempting to get ranged attacks/grabs in even though that doesn't happen because any action usually makes the grab miss. I think he could deff see some love in 4v4. The trick is just to make sure it doesn't over tune him in 1v1.

S0Mi_xD
08-30-2017, 01:44 AM
I thought wind gust was like 20 damage. when was it changed? or am I just blanking here. I only suggested the buff to it's damage to make it a comparable option to parry post defensive changes. I disagree. I don't think you should be able to escape someone countering you like that. Double rolling if done fast enough trumps anything you could do save soft feint into storm rush however that's extremely hard to do and doesn't catch all people. I already explained why I feel this way about hurricane blast to sneaky patches. Perhaps look at that reply?
I really don't agree with any of your feedback on pk. She's about bleed. making it worse when it was already nerfed just doesn't feel good. I excluded zerker because didn't they make it so it can't be parried as much?

I think they would considering the pushes they are trying to make (or at least claim openly about their dedication.)

As far as i i know wind gust was always 25 dmg, always a last bar killer ^^
I do understand, that deflecting heavies can be really risky sometimes, this happens to me against kensei very often ( i am a "deflecter" as well ^^)
But 55 dmg safe for a deflect ... mhh, you can still go for 25 dmg windgust, or softfeint the hurrican into windgust, this hits people who try to escape the hurrican blast as far as i know.
And if it would be safe, nobody would use the other tools, orochis deflect has ( cancel into wind gust or GB) and how would you make it safe on heavies? speed it up on heavy defelct?
Because deflects do not interrupt the enemy.
But rolling costs a good amount of stamina, and if it happens that they run out of stamina you will still have the advantage.

About those PK feedback, think again about it - the blank bleed would be "weaker" but as a PK it is pretty easy to hit a cap of 35 bleed or maybe 30 dunno what would be better.
This suggestion isn't a PK related balance it is more a bleed balance in general, because i think it works still too good.
But that was just a thought ^^.
About PK, i think her dmg overall pretty good.
What i think, that could be usefull is, if you softfeint a heavy into a bleed light, to change direction of the light, but if you change the direction it acts slower than it would on the same direction like the heavy (to have a chance to reacte to it)

Which move do you mean can't be parried ?
As far as i know the only thing that can't be parried from berserker is her slashing rush, but it is a attack that never really hits.

Sneaky-Patches
08-30-2017, 05:31 AM
Just a minor correction i'm not on pc. I'm a console player on the xbox one. But I do mainly duel. I personally don't struggle with lights outside pk/valk and even then because of a monitor I occasionally get to use I don't struggle as bad. I can pretty much block most on reaction from those 2 now. Anyway. on to your points:

I thought armor would be a good solution to the fact that people dodge attack out of it. So you'd eat the hit but still catch them. at least that's how i'm picturing it in my mind.
I'm not really against him getting a new zone. Just saying I doubt they'd go that far. From my experiences on shinobi I never have attacks track me on back flip sans goki's headbutt and orochi's dodge attack (from memory.) Potentially the start up frames could give I frames but the bulk of the animation remains the same. That way in a gank fight against a shin the back flip still gets him through tight spaces if they are just mashing attacks at you instead of timing them.

I thought it was possible to get a ranged heavy on an OOS opponent? Kind of why I said all of his kicks should splat people. that way he can get damage in that way. Well as I said. i'm not opposed to his pool getting a slight bump. The devs just have to be careful because I don't want to see him going back to spammed kicks. I still think giving him a faster regen would be more beneficial in the long run. But that's probably due to how I specifically play him and the mode i'm in. We could probably do both if the numbers are right.

Again not really against him getting a better deflect. Just don't know the right way to do it without making it pretty insane. Shin even when he was first shown was seen as being pretty weak in 4v4 basically relying on being ignored and attempting to get ranged attacks/grabs in even though that doesn't happen because any action usually makes the grab miss. I think he could deff see some love in 4v4. The trick is just to make sure it doesn't over tune him in 1v1.

Yeah I know they said they won't do new moves, but I hope they could for this. Just spitballing, but maybe a ZA similar to nobushis ZA, where shinobi could swing his kamas out about the same width, at the same speed as her ZA, but if parried, they could reuse the animation to pull shinobi to the ground. So it would be good, but if parried it's a really heavy punish getting pulled to ground in a gank or something.

Yeah if they buff his stam then the kick Cost should be increased so it's not spammable. More so that feints and double dash, sickle rain etc aren't as costly.

As for iframes on backflip, roll and GB throw forward/ back, I wonder if they could implement it so it only activates in group fights? Like, if they tied these i frames properties to the same system that does revenge. Like the way the game knows if there's more than one person fighting you to award you different amounts of revenge, could they implement it so iframes only activate when the same revenge system activates? That way it wouldn't affect duels or even 1v1s in 4v4 modes...

Knight_Raime
08-30-2017, 07:31 PM
As far as i i know wind gust was always 25 dmg, always a last bar killer ^^
I do understand, that deflecting heavies can be really risky sometimes, this happens to me against kensei very often ( i am a "deflecter" as well ^^)
But 55 dmg safe for a deflect ... mhh, you can still go for 25 dmg windgust, or softfeint the hurrican into windgust, this hits people who try to escape the hurrican blast as far as i know.
And if it would be safe, nobody would use the other tools, orochis deflect has ( cancel into wind gust or GB) and how would you make it safe on heavies? speed it up on heavy defelct?
Because deflects do not interrupt the enemy.
But rolling costs a good amount of stamina, and if it happens that they run out of stamina you will still have the advantage.

About those PK feedback, think again about it - the blank bleed would be "weaker" but as a PK it is pretty easy to hit a cap of 35 bleed or maybe 30 dunno what would be better.
This suggestion isn't a PK related balance it is more a bleed balance in general, because i think it works still too good.
But that was just a thought ^^.
About PK, i think her dmg overall pretty good.
What i think, that could be usefull is, if you softfeint a heavy into a bleed light, to change direction of the light, but if you change the direction it acts slower than it would on the same direction like the heavy (to have a chance to reacte to it)

Which move do you mean can't be parried ?
As far as i know the only thing that can't be parried from berserker is her slashing rush, but it is a attack that never really hits.

Interesting. I wonder why people always advocated for it being buffed to making it comparable to a parry then.
What you soft feint into entirely depends on how they try to deal with your hurricane blast. If they try to dodge attack you cancel into wind gust.
If they try to dash out you cancel into GB. and if they roll out storm rush is an option against some heros. My point is I don't see why i'd ever attempt hurricane blast when competent players will just roll out every time.
I wouldn't know how to make that happen gameplay wise.
Isn't zerks zone where you spin and hit 4 times? I could have sworn they made it so if you landed the first hit blocked or not the last one couldn't be parried. That the first hit had to be parried to counter the zone.

Knight_Raime
08-30-2017, 07:35 PM
Yeah I know they said they won't do new moves, but I hope they could for this. Just spitballing, but maybe a ZA similar to nobushis ZA, where shinobi could swing his kamas out about the same width, at the same speed as her ZA, but if parried, they could reuse the animation to pull shinobi to the ground. So it would be good, but if parried it's a really heavy punish getting pulled to ground in a gank or something.

Yeah if they buff his stam then the kick Cost should be increased so it's not spammable. More so that feints and double dash, sickle rain etc aren't as costly.

As for iframes on backflip, roll and GB throw forward/ back, I wonder if they could implement it so it only activates in group fights? Like, if they tied these i frames properties to the same system that does revenge. Like the way the game knows if there's more than one person fighting you to award you different amounts of revenge, could they implement it so iframes only activate when the same revenge system activates? That way it wouldn't affect duels or even 1v1s in 4v4 modes...

Correct me if i'm wrong isn't shinobi's second part of his zone where he spins his scythes out in a big wide circle? If so they could just cut the first part of the zone entirely and only use that part.
It is possible from a technical level. As revenge gain is based on "markers" on your person or the person attacking you. They could probably adopt that sort of mechanical part for the I frames for shinobi. But I don't think they would go that far unfortunately. That's why I suggested I frames on animation start up. As it would be easier for them to do on their end. Making it only happen during revenge seems possible too considering some other changes they've made during revenge in the past.

S0Mi_xD
08-30-2017, 09:46 PM
Interesting. I wonder why people always advocated for it being buffed to making it comparable to a parry then.
What you soft feint into entirely depends on how they try to deal with your hurricane blast. If they try to dodge attack you cancel into wind gust.
If they try to dash out you cancel into GB. and if they roll out storm rush is an option against some heros. My point is I don't see why i'd ever attempt hurricane blast when competent players will just roll out every time.
I wouldn't know how to make that happen gameplay wise.
Isn't zerks zone where you spin and hit 4 times? I could have sworn they made it so if you landed the first hit blocked or not the last one couldn't be parried. That the first hit had to be parried to counter the zone.

I don't know - i think it is a pretty solid dmg for such a fast deflect follow up.

I understand your point, but thats the essece of mix ups, trick your enemy be using Hurrican blast not that often and release it, if you think it could be effective and if needed softfeint.
Also, i think the forward dash would be a better follow up if someone rolls out of hurrican blast, it is faster than stormrush and hits guaranteed on evading enemies, or am i wrong?
That would mean a good stamina loss, and 17 dmg + mix ups, because you would be still in close range.

They changed nothing about the zone :D (not officially ^^ it isn't mentioned in any patchnotes or stream, i think this is a sideeffect of the timesnap removal)
Yep, you can't block the last hit anymore if the zerker zone connects. But it is a easy parry if you block it.
Thats a really important change for berserker, but to use it safe you need to mix it up with the ability "close combat" and if you do that you will be OOS most of the time. Out of neutral it is too easy to block.

Also, slashing rush has the same input as the zone + backwards input - zerker spins backwards and attacks 3 times.

We.the.North
08-30-2017, 10:15 PM
- and the hyperarmor on the heavy that leads into sickle rain .... mh not sure about this, could be abit to much, but thats a thing we would need to see in action.

You do realise every single character with a dodge attack can 100% safely and garanteed punish a Shinobi rolling forward right ?? If you kick, he dodges out of it and hit you ; if you heavy, the dodge attack will hit you and cancel your heavy.

Giving hyper armor on the Heavy after rolling forward wont stop the Shinobi from getting it, but the Heavy leading into a sickle rain makes damn sure the Shinobi will at least win that trade (if your opponent doesn't have an ally nearby to punish your sickle rain).

Knight_Raime
08-30-2017, 11:24 PM
I don't know - i think it is a pretty solid dmg for such a fast deflect follow up.

I understand your point, but thats the essece of mix ups, trick your enemy be using Hurrican blast not that often and release it, if you think it could be effective and if needed softfeint.
Also, i think the forward dash would be a better follow up if someone rolls out of hurrican blast, it is faster than stormrush and hits guaranteed on evading enemies, or am i wrong?
That would mean a good stamina loss, and 17 dmg + mix ups, because you would be still in close range.

They changed nothing about the zone :D (not officially ^^ it isn't mentioned in any patchnotes or stream, i think this is a sideeffect of the timesnap removal)
Yep, you can't block the last hit anymore if the zerker zone connects. But it is a easy parry if you block it.
Thats a really important change for berserker, but to use it safe you need to mix it up with the ability "close combat" and if you do that you will be OOS most of the time. Out of neutral it is too easy to block.

Also, slashing rush has the same input as the zone + backwards input - zerker spins backwards and attacks 3 times.

well regardless of why 25 damage is enough. So I wouldn't think it would need to be buffed post defensive meta changes.
You mean his dodge forward light attack? too slow. The opponent will have recovered by then to block it. Plus it comes from the top where most are conditioned to have their guard against rochi. Storm rush ends up being faster and could come from either side so the opponent can't really handle it. It's just due to spacing that you won't always reach with SR on certain characters. But regardless. My brain has a conflict over this. On one hand my efficiency side is like "no reason to ever attempt it because of listed reasons." My other side is like "but hardly anyone uses deflect and someone will only know how to perfect counter it if they are good as heck."

I still stand by them letting it be guaranteed on deflecting certain attacks. But i'd be fine with reverting it should roll get fixed so it's not the be all counter or it turns out to be too powerful of an option to have. And I see. that was the change that I was thinking about. Yeah all multi hit zones should be cancelable specifically for 1v1 purposes. I don't believe i've ever seen a zerker use slashing rush.

S0Mi_xD
08-31-2017, 12:38 AM
well regardless of why 25 damage is enough. So I wouldn't think it would need to be buffed post defensive meta changes.
You mean his dodge forward light attack? too slow. The opponent will have recovered by then to block it. Plus it comes from the top where most are conditioned to have their guard against rochi. Storm rush ends up being faster and could come from either side so the opponent can't really handle it. It's just due to spacing that you won't always reach with SR on certain characters. But regardless. My brain has a conflict over this. On one hand my efficiency side is like "no reason to ever attempt it because of listed reasons." My other side is like "but hardly anyone uses deflect and someone will only know how to perfect counter it if they are good as heck."

I still stand by them letting it be guaranteed on deflecting certain attacks. But i'd be fine with reverting it should roll get fixed so it's not the be all counter or it turns out to be too powerful of an option to have. And I see. that was the change that I was thinking about. Yeah all multi hit zones should be cancelable specifically for 1v1 purposes. I don't believe i've ever seen a zerker use slashing rush.

Really? To slow ... mhh i thought it would be faster than SR, because for SR you need to backdash, and with the forwarddash attack, you are already in motion when dashing... i think i need to try this for my self ^^.

I know what you mean - thats the conflict i have, every time using slashing rush :D ( yes, i am a slashing rush user ^^ and it is really usefull, the only problem is, you can't use it properly because it is a 50/50 that it counts the input as a zone, and with some badluck you lose most of your stamina, be oos, and eat some good dmg ...

Just an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6kDCjDCr9s

Berserkers zone, it would be already enough if berserker could cancel Zone with a dodge if it whiffs (also the whiff animation is sometimes buggy)
If it connects, i don't need to cancel it and if it is blocked, it is the a chance to for the enemy (and i think there should be also some negative aspects to such attacks)

Knight_Raime
08-31-2017, 01:57 AM
Really? To slow ... mhh i thought it would be faster than SR, because for SR you need to backdash, and with the forwarddash attack, you are already in motion when dashing... i think i need to try this for my self ^^.

I know what you mean - thats the conflict i have, every time using slashing rush :D ( yes, i am a slashing rush user ^^ and it is really usefull, the only problem is, you can't use it properly because it is a 50/50 that it counts the input as a zone, and with some badluck you lose most of your stamina, be oos, and eat some good dmg ...

Just an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6kDCjDCr9s

Berserkers zone, it would be already enough if berserker could cancel Zone with a dodge if it whiffs (also the whiff animation is sometimes buggy)
If it connects, i don't need to cancel it and if it is blocked, it is the a chance to for the enemy (and i think there should be also some negative aspects to such attacks)

problem with forward dash attack is the animation itself. Not the speed of the attack.
I'd imagine forward dash could work on people with short distance rolls. but it wouldn't help with the ones SR can't catch.
Yeah on whiff soft cancel with dodge would be where i'd put it. no need to cancel if it;s blocked or already connecting